Darksun Races

[Nibenay]

Hi,

My DM is working on adding back in the Thri-kreen and Halfgiant races from the old Darksun setting. I absolutely love playing kreen and have the rolled up stat ready! :D

However both the Kreen and Halfgiant were powerful races back then (and should be and feel so), I wonder if anyone has suggestions for balancing them while keeping them still strong and in flavour of what they had before.

The half giant had exceptional strength and obvious will have reach with big weapons (probably 15' with polearms). This is by itself quite strong!

The kreen of old should have a multitude of abilities, of the most strong would be more attacks than your average human and poison effects.

We both have googled up several suggestions about this (some from this forum) but feel many of the things that made especially the kreen unique and feared are missing. Given that the base races don't come with a huge package (vhuman: +2, free feat, free skill) of course limits new races.

I'm curious if anyone has suggestions that will balance out the kreen/giant if they get more abilities than your vhuman, such as increased xp costs and similiar?

[CantigThimble]

One thing that could work would be requiring them to take a level in a racial class that gives them those benefits.

[Mjolnirbear]

Got half giant you can reskin a goliath. For the keen... No clue.

[gullveig]

The Tiefling and Dragonborn races has traits that improve with level.
You can use then as base to your Thri-Kreen and spread the TK bonuses between levels.

[eastmabl]

One thing that could work would be requiring them to take a level in a racial class that gives them those benefits.

Wrong edition, bro.

[CantigThimble]

Wrong edition, bro.

I realize 5e doesn't do this currently, however as the issue being discussed is something that doesn't have an easy solution within the standard structure of 5e: a race that adds a large amount of power to a character; I am making a suggestion that is not within the standard structure of 5e.

[M Placeholder]

Here is one take. (http://tribality.com/2014/12/19/5th-edition-thri-kreen/)

Another idea would be to have instead of a background, have a racial memory. In the Dark Sun setting, and described in the Thri-Kreen of Athas guidebook, thri-kreen have racial memories. So the race would have all the traits relating to race, and the racial memory would include proficiency in the kreen weaponry, stealth and survival.

For the half giants, they were retconned as goliaths in 4e, but I loved the original version, that was actually half giants.

Ability Score Increase – Your Strength increases by 2 and your Constitution increases by 2
Size – Half Giants Stand between 10 and 12 feet tall and weigh between 1200 and 1600 pounds. You are a large creature
Speed – Your base speed is 35 feet
Giant Heritage – You are a giant, and as a large creature, you can carry, push, drag or lift double what a medium sized creature of your strength can physically manipulate.
Huge appetite - As a result of your stature, you require twice the amount of food and water than a human, and clothing and equipment need twice the material to construct to fit a half-giant.
Made Warrior – Half-Giants were said to be created to be a warrior race. You have a reach of 10 feet. You can wield 2-handed weapons and weapons with the "heavy" keyword with one hand, but you take disadvantage when using weapons with the "light" keyword. You treat weapons with the "versatile" keyword as "light" weapons for your size (Used normally for "light" weapons.). When using a 2-handed weapon, you can add your proficiency bonus to the damage roll.

Thats the version one of my players used. We put that campaign on ice due to lack of psionics in 5e, and while he was pretty brutal in combat, the demands of food and lack of social skills were a big drawback.

[SharkForce]

*sigh*

ok, let's be clear about something here:

the only race that didn't get a substantial boost in dark sun was humans, and even then the fact that high attributes were much more achievable meant that humans could actually have a realistic chance at dual-classing.

thri-kreen and half-giant were never really meant to be played alongside regular PHB races. they were on the high end of a substantially higher scale, one where dwarves could get 22 constitution and have natural regeneration and be as strong as a regular giant, for example.

if you want to bring in half-giant and thri-kreen and have them at full AD&D strength, you're going to need to change the scale for *all* of the races, otherwise you're just setting yourself up to get very frustrated.

[Theodoxus]

*sigh*

ok, let's be clear about something here:

the only race that didn't get a substantial boost in dark sun was humans, and even then the fact that high attributes were much more achievable meant that humans could actually have a realistic chance at dual-classing.

thri-kreen and half-giant were never really meant to be played alongside regular PHB races. they were on the high end of a substantially higher scale, one where dwarves could get 22 constitution and have natural regeneration and be as strong as a regular giant, for example.

if you want to bring in half-giant and thri-kreen and have them at full AD&D strength, you're going to need to change the scale for *all* of the races, otherwise you're just setting yourself up to get very frustrated.


I don't think that's necessarily true. Sure, if you add these races to a LMoP game, alongside the standard races, sure - they will outshine the standard PCs by miles.

But, if the DM actually has the game world react appropriately to these 'monstrous' races, it'll be ok. In fact, the players will probably just ask to switch to something less exotic. Torches and Pitchforks will follow a half-giant; they're far too large to deal with in typical dark ages village. Van Helsing would be jealous of the number of hunters trying to take down the giant bugman.

In a DS setting, HGs work okish, though the provisioning described above is a definite drawback. TKs are considered outcasts at the very best. Most places would actively deny their access to towns and help. Most adventurers would rather hunt one than allow it join the party. Of course, if everyone is playing one, then internal balance no longer matters.

I've noted in the past, I'm a huge fan of player agency. I allow people to play what they want, even if it's OP - but there will be social considerations to their actions. If you're playing a flying tiefling who looks like a succubus - you'll have some interesting social problems that the same character clothed in human guise won't.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, bare in mind that everybody got at least a small boost in DS except for humans. But looking at the races...

In 2e the Half-giant has:
-Variable Alignment: not sure if this should still be a thing.
-+4 Strength, +2 Constitution: Maybe a bit high, it could break bounded accuracy. Should be okay though.
--2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: unless you really feel like you have to balance out the +4 Strength it should go, 5e has continued with 4e's 'no racial stat penalties'. Not much penalty except 'no spellcasters for you'.
-Double HP rolls: yeah, this could be a problem, maybe a bonus on death saves instead?

So Half-giants really aren't that much stronger than core 5e races, if that.

While the Thri-kreen received:
-AC 5: the equivalent of giving them AC 15+dex in 5e. It could cause problems with wizard and sorcerer (and bard) characters, which isn't really a concern in Dark Sun as the only ones available are Defilers/Preservers,. Theoretically balanced by the lack of ability to wear any armour.
-Slight reduction in penalties from darkness: really minor, it probably wouldn't unbalance anything to keep it.
-No need to sleep: no real problem except for possibly immunity to the sleep spell.
-Various attacks: having them is not a real problem in the bigger picture, but they should be limited to at most 2 attacks with them per round (plus extra attacks).
-Good at Jumping: potentially breaking, but it could be kept.
-Paralysing saliva: oh boy this could be a big problem. Maybe either this or the natural attacks.
-Dodging missiles: probably best to get rid of it, it's supposed to be part of AC.
-+1 Wisdom, +2 Dexterity: actually in-line with 5e attribute bonuses, I suggest keeping this.
--1 Intelligence, -2 Charisma: it doesn't really do much except to say 'no arcane spellcasters'. I suggest dumping it.

So in 2e, there's one racial feature that is represented well by the Dexterity bonus and can be safely dropped, one that is rather weird and potentially unbalancing, one that should be okay but should not include 5 attacks/round at 1st level, and one that really will be a problem unless we put some restrictions on it ASAP. I suggest limiting the number of uses of the paralysing saliva (say 3/long rest or 1/short rest?).

[Theodoxus]

I suggest limiting the number of uses of the paralysing saliva (say 3/long rest or 1/short rest?).

Just have it recharge... 6 on a d6... maybe a 12 on a d12 if you want it to be particularly rare. I like recharging mechanics over blanket uses per day. It encourages their use a bit more - knowing it'll be ready to use for every fight, but less certain in the middle of the fight if it's already used.

[M Placeholder]

Yeah, bare in mind that everybody got at least a small boost in DS except for humans. But looking at the races...

In 2e the Half-giant has:
-Variable Alignment: not sure if this should still be a thing.
-+4 Strength, +2 Constitution: Maybe a bit high, it could break bounded accuracy. Should be okay though.
--2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: unless you really feel like you have to balance out the +4 Strength it should go, 5e has continued with 4e's 'no racial stat penalties'. Not much penalty except 'no spellcasters for you'.
-Double HP rolls: yeah, this could be a problem, maybe a bonus on death saves instead?

So Half-giants really aren't that much stronger than core 5e races, if that.

While the Thri-kreen received:
-AC 5: the equivalent of giving them AC 15+dex in 5e. It could cause problems with wizard and sorcerer (and bard) characters, which isn't really a concern in Dark Sun as the only ones available are Defilers/Preservers,. Theoretically balanced by the lack of ability to wear any armour.
-Slight reduction in penalties from darkness: really minor, it probably wouldn't unbalance anything to keep it.
-No need to sleep: no real problem except for possibly immunity to the sleep spell.
-Various attacks: having them is not a real problem in the bigger picture, but they should be limited to at most 2 attacks with them per round (plus extra attacks).
-Good at Jumping: potentially breaking, but it could be kept.
-Paralysing saliva: oh boy this could be a big problem. Maybe either this or the natural attacks.
-Dodging missiles: probably best to get rid of it, it's supposed to be part of AC.
-+1 Wisdom, +2 Dexterity: actually in-line with 5e attribute bonuses, I suggest keeping this.
--1 Intelligence, -2 Charisma: it doesn't really do much except to say 'no arcane spellcasters'. I suggest dumping it.

So in 2e, there's one racial feature that is represented well by the Dexterity bonus and can be safely dropped, one that is rather weird and potentially unbalancing, one that should be okay but should not include 5 attacks/round at 1st level, and one that really will be a problem unless we put some restrictions on it ASAP. I suggest limiting the number of uses of the paralysing saliva (say 3/long rest or 1/short rest?).

Just a note on the sleep - In Thri-Kreen of Athas, it's stated that kreen do not need to sleep, and when the sun goes down and they are unable to hunt effectively, they spend the time either making wood carvings or using rocks and their own carapaces as percussion. They basically have a jam session every night.

They can be put to sleep via either psionics or magic, and it was described as a harrowing experience for a kreen - their word for sleep, dra, is very similar to the word dre, meaning to die.

[gfishfunk]

One thing that could work would be requiring them to take a level in a racial class that gives them those benefits.

Wrong edition, bro.

I think its an appropriate and considered response: use multiclassing rules to determine spell slots and proficiency bonus, but treat the race as a 2-3 dip into a racial class.

I recommend honing it back a bit regardless:

Half-Giant
- Starts at level 3 (2 levels of Half-Giant, 1 level of class)
- May increase reach for one turn by 5' an amount of times equal to your dexterity (constitution?) modifier (I would hesitate to use Strength)
- +3 Strength, +1 Con as a racial bonus. This should not be broken because of the reduced ASI from having 2 levels.
- When a Half-Giant rolls hit dice during a short rest, he has advantage on the rolls (I know they are not d20s, but same idea)

Kreen - I would simply scale it down rather than add a level. Something like this doesn't look too abused:
- Cannot use heavy armor; armor made for a Kreen must be made custom for its physiology
- May calculate AC as 13 + Dex (fairly standard) if not wearing armor; thus, if they get another method of calculation it won't stack
- When the Kreen takes a bonus action to attack with an off-hand weapon, the Kreen may take two attacks with the off-hand weapon
---An Alternative version: Kreen can make one off-hand attack in addition to any other attacks when given the attack action, this way they can use their bonus action to add one additional attack or use it for something else
- +1 Wis / +2 Dex
- When jumping, a Kreen adds 5' to both height and distance.

[obryn]

Why would you want them to be significantly more powerful than the default races? Everyone got a boost in Dark Sun.

I'd just make them in line with the rest of the 5e races for balance reasons. One idea that might work is something like racial levels from the d20 game, Arcana Evolved. Give all the other races the chance to do this too, though.

[DanyBallon]

Since Half-Giant and Thri-kreen are very specific races from Darksun setting and were traditionnally stronger, we could just adapt the ability score penalty there was in 2e. In your typical Darksun game both race were rare to be encountered and can be considered as being alien, so working a bit out of the usual frame of 5e race is fine by me.

[Anonymouswizard]

Just have it recharge... 6 on a d6... maybe a 12 on a d12 if you want it to be particularly rare. I like recharging mechanics over blanket uses per day. It encourages their use a bit more - knowing it'll be ready to use for every fight, but less certain in the middle of the fight if it's already used.

Part of my concern is it being used in every fight, but each to their own, the point was more to stop Thri-kreen from paralysing everyone and making combat ridiculously easy.


Just a note on the sleep - In Thri-Kreen of Athas, it's stated that kreen do not need to sleep, and when the sun goes down and they are unable to hunt effectively, they spend the time either making wood carvings or using rocks and their own carapaces as percussion. They basically have a jam session every night.

They can be put to sleep via either psionics or magic, and it was described as a harrowing experience for a kreen - their word for sleep, dra, is very similar to the word dre, meaning to die.

I didn't know this, I only own the original box set. Pretty much what I had thought anyway, it seems to make the most sense.

Also, shouldn't you be extinct? The cleansing wars were ages ago! :smalltongue:

[LibraryOgre]

I'd be inclined to use feats for Kreen.

So, start with the standard +2 to Dex and Wisdom.
40' movement (whatever that translates into in 5e; don't recall off the top of my head)
Advantage on Jump checks
Proficiency in claws and bite, which are equivalent to daggers.
+2 Natural Armor AC
Proficiency in Gytha and Chatchaka are Martial weapons
Can take two-weapon fighting up to 3 times to reduce the penalty on more hands

Cons:
Cannot swim.
Cannot wear armor, clothing, headgear, or rings not specifically designed for kreen.

Feats for Kreen would allow them special access to spells like Jump (representing their great leaping capabilities) and something that will paralyze on a bite attack.

They don't automatically get to attack with 4 claws and a bite. They don't get super-jumping or paralyzing bites for free, but can take them.

[M Placeholder]

Part of my concern is it being used in every fight, but each to their own, the point was more to stop Thri-kreen from paralysing everyone and making combat ridiculously easy.



I didn't know this, I only own the original box set. Pretty much what I had thought anyway, it seems to make the most sense.

Also, shouldn't you be extinct? The cleansing wars were ages ago! :smalltongue:

And the rise of Cyric continues :smallwink:

[JackPhoenix]

Yeah, bare in mind that everybody got at least a small boost in DS except for humans. But looking at the races...

In 2e the Half-giant has:
-Variable Alignment: not sure if this should still be a thing.
-+4 Strength, +2 Constitution: Maybe a bit high, it could break bounded accuracy. Should be okay though.
--2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: unless you really feel like you have to balance out the +4 Strength it should go, 5e has continued with 4e's 'no racial stat penalties'. Not much penalty except 'no spellcasters for you'.
-Double HP rolls: yeah, this could be a problem, maybe a bonus on death saves instead?

So Half-giants really aren't that much stronger than core 5e races, if that.

Sounds almost like hybrid between Hill and Mountain Dwarf, just exchange the stats for +2 str/+2 con with no pentalties and give it Hill Dwarfs +1 hp/level...in fact, it's a little worse, because it shouldn't have Darkvision, Dwarven Resilience and Dwarven Combat Training...giving it extra +2 str in exchange of all that would be strong, but not overpowered


While the Thri-kreen received:
-AC 5: the equivalent of giving them AC 15+dex in 5e. It could cause problems with wizard and sorcerer (and bard) characters, which isn't really a concern in Dark Sun as the only ones available are Defilers/Preservers,. Theoretically balanced by the lack of ability to wear any armour.
-Slight reduction in penalties from darkness: really minor, it probably wouldn't unbalance anything to keep it.
-No need to sleep: no real problem except for possibly immunity to the sleep spell.
-Various attacks: having them is not a real problem in the bigger picture, but they should be limited to at most 2 attacks with them per round (plus extra attacks).
-Good at Jumping: potentially breaking, but it could be kept.
-Paralysing saliva: oh boy this could be a big problem. Maybe either this or the natural attacks.
-Dodging missiles: probably best to get rid of it, it's supposed to be part of AC.
-+1 Wisdom, +2 Dexterity: actually in-line with 5e attribute bonuses, I suggest keeping this.
--1 Intelligence, -2 Charisma: it doesn't really do much except to say 'no arcane spellcasters'. I suggest dumping it.

So in 2e, there's one racial feature that is represented well by the Dexterity bonus and can be safely dropped, one that is rather weird and potentially unbalancing, one that should be okay but should not include 5 attacks/round at 1st level, and one that really will be a problem unless we put some restrictions on it ASAP. I suggest limiting the number of uses of the paralysing saliva (say 3/long rest or 1/short rest?).

Oh boy...that's something else...let's see...
AC is a problem with bounded accuracy, but I think giving them equivalent of Mage Armor (base AC 13+dex) in exchange for the ability to use real armor wouldn't be that overpowered. Dragon sorcerers got that at level 1.
The second ability is just an Darkvision, half the player races have it.
No need to sleep is mostly a ribbon, you may want to keep it in line with elven Trance (4 hours of inactivity still needed...even Warforged got that)
Various attacks...nope. Maybe give them natural weapon (1d4 claws?) or have them add their stat to TWF damage (like TWF combat style)
Good at Jumping means proficiency in Athletics
Paralysing Saliva...make it 1/long rest like Dragonborn's breath weapon. I think this part is less iconic then 4 arms
Dodging Missiles is indeed an part of AC
+1wis/+2 dex with no penalties sounds good.

In the end, strong, but not overpowered, IMO

[M Placeholder]

Since Half-Giant and Thri-kreen are very specific races from Darksun setting and were traditionnally stronger, we could just adapt the ability score penalty there was in 2e. In your typical Darksun game both race were rare to be encountered and can be considered as being alien, so working a bit out of the usual frame of 5e race is fine by me.

Thri-kreen and half-giants are pretty common in that setting, and should be regular encounters in most DS campaigns, not rare beasts. In the wastes, there are no shortage of kreen packs, not to mention the kreen empire past the Ringing Mountains and the Jagged Cliffs. Mantis Warriors are no strangers in most of the cities either - mostly those that have had their packs wiped out, or as gladiators.

Half - giants are pretty common too, especially in the city - state of Nibenay. In terms of mindset, half giants were like massive children - impressionable and (all too, in some cases) willing to follow a human who was of high standing. The thri-kreen has a mindset that was all about the hunt and their pack, and when dealing with the pack, they were basically lawful good as their allignment, but saw most other creatures as prey items.

[DanyBallon]

Thri-kreen and half-giants are pretty common in that setting, and should be regular encounters in most DS campaigns, not rare beasts. In the wastes, there are no shortage of kreen packs, not to mention the kreen empire past the Ringing Mountains and the Jagged Cliffs. Mantis Warriors are no strangers in most of the cities either - mostly those that have had their packs wiped out, or as gladiators.

Half - giants are pretty common too, especially in the city - state of Nibenay. In terms of mindset, half giants were like massive children - impressionable and (all too, in some cases) willing to follow a human who was of high standing. The thri-kreen has a mindset that was all about the hunt and their pack, and when dealing with the pack, they were basically lawful good as their allignment, but saw most other creatures as prey items.

Thri-kreen and Half-Giant as a character races in Darksun are as common as Dragonborn or tiefling are compare to human and elves in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. They fall in the "ask your DM" category, as if they should be allowed. Same as Dragonborn, Tiefling, Drow, or Gnome are up to the DM to be allowed as per PHB.

With this in mind, I'm more than willing to have those specific races have penalty to ability score to balance out their above than normal relative power.

[Anonymouswizard]

Sounds almost like hybrid between Hill and Mountain Dwarf, just exchange the stats for +2 str/+2 con with no pentalties and give it Hill Dwarfs +1 hp/level...in fact, it's a little worse, because it shouldn't have Darkvision, Dwarven Resilience and Dwarven Combat Training...giving it extra +2 str in exchange of all that would be strong, but not overpowered

Yeah, looking over half-giants for this thread shocked me at how weak they actually were, except for the double-hp rolls (which goes from 'good' at 1st level to 'awesome' at 9th level) bring them approximately to par with the other DS races. Although remove the triple-mental stat penalty and they are actually a pretty decent race, exchanging their double hp for +1hp per level looks about right for a 5e race (which are slightly stronger than most 2e/3e races).


Oh boy...that's something else...let's see...
AC is a problem with bounded accuracy, but I think giving them equivalent of Mage Armor (base AC 13+dex) in exchange for the ability to use real armor wouldn't be that overpowered. Dragon sorcerers got that at level 1.
The second ability is just an Darkvision, half the player races have it.
No need to sleep is mostly a ribbon, you may want to keep it in line with elven Trance (4 hours of inactivity still needed...even Warforged got that)
Various attacks...nope. Maybe give them natural weapon (1d4 claws?) or have them add their stat to TWF damage (like TWF combat style)
Good at Jumping means proficiency in Athletics
Paralysing Saliva...make it 1/long rest like Dragonborn's breath weapon. I think this part is less iconic then 4 arms
Dodging Missiles is indeed an part of AC
+1wis/+2 dex with no penalties sounds good.

In the end, strong, but not overpowered, IMO

Hm... I like giving them 1d4 claws and a 1d4 bite, and then specifying that they can make an attack with them as a bonus action (no Strength to damage). The real problem is the ability to use two two-handed weapons at once. Imagine a Champion with Dual-Weapon and Great-Weapon fighting styles dual-wielding greatswords (it's even worse if they have GWM).

Everything else I agree with, except Thri-Kreen do not have darkvision, they have antenna that give them a slight bonus when doing non-ranged actions in darkness.


Thri-kreen and Half-Giant as a character races in Darksun are as common as Dragonborn or tiefling are compare to human and elves in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. They fall in the "ask your DM" category, as if they should be allowed. Same as Dragonborn, Tiefling, Drow, or Gnome are up to the DM to be allowed as per PHB.

With this in mind, I'm more than willing to have those specific races have penalty to ability score to balance out their above than normal relative power.

As I've said before, Half-giants are actually kind of weak. They have a penalty to every mental stat and very few abilities, while with Thri-Kreen it penalises classes that gain nothing from the race anyway (really, all their abilities make them better fighters and rogues, so few people are going to play a Thri-Kreen wizard or bard even without the penalties).

[SharkForce]

half-giants were never weak.

+4 strength in 2nd edition was huge.

18 strength was the normal human maximum. it gave you +1 to hit and +2 to damage. a warrior who rolled an 18 was further entitled to roll a d100 as "exceptional strength", potentially allowing up to +3 to hit and +6 to damage.

for a half-giant, having a +4 meant you could skip over "exceptional strength" entirely as long as you had at least a 15 in strength, which was pretty easy on 5d4. and if the stars align, you could have a natural 24 strength, for +6 to attack and +12 to damage and the ability to carry over 1000 lbs of stuff before even being the least bit slowed down, plus being able to destroy most doors including magically locked and reinforced ones, and to lift most portcullis-type gates you could find.

combine this with the fact that attributes between 9-13 typically had no impact whatsoever (in some cases 14 was also no meaningful difference). so those "penalties" to wisdom and charisma and intelligence were very easy to put some place where it would have no meaningful impact, because remember: rolling 5d4 for attributes.

meanwhile, 22 constitution was enough to give you natural regeneration, should you manage to pull that off (in fact, 20 or higher con gave you natural regeneration). in an edition where a full 24 hours of bed-rest gave you 3 HP if and only if you had a trained healer helping you out, and more particularly in a setting where healing magic was much more rare (most clerics didn't get much healing at all), the half-giant could potentially get enough con to recover 24-36 HP per day of full activity.

so no, the half-giant was not mechanically unimpressive. they were terrifyingly powerful warriors that could become nearly unkillable at high levels, and could deal massive amounts of damage.

[MeeposFire]

+4 str had a lot more potential back in the day especially when combined with the better stat rolling in DS. It also could be nearly useless though that would be very unlikely (if you put a low number in str a +4 may lead to no bonus). All in all those stats are massive in an edition when normally stats gave you little except at the edges and the half giant excels at getting to those edge cases.

[M Placeholder]

Thri-kreen and Half-Giant as a character races in Darksun are as common as Dragonborn or tiefling are compare to human and elves in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. They fall in the "ask your DM" category, as if they should be allowed. Same as Dragonborn, Tiefling, Drow, or Gnome are up to the DM to be allowed as per PHB.

With this in mind, I'm more than willing to have those specific races have penalty to ability score to balance out their above than normal relative power.


Half Giants are familiar sights in all the cities of the tablelands, and are a part of most of the armies. Similarly, kreen are one of the dominant races on Athas, and are quite common in a number of cities. Both of them actually outnumber halflings in the tablelands, so they should not be treated as rare races - quite the opposite. They are proportionally far more common on Athas than Tieflings or Dragonborn are on Toril or Oerth.

Considering the lore surrounding the two races, they should not be in the "ask your gm" unless the party has an elf present, and more of a reason could be made for the halflings to be in that category rather than either kreen or half giants. After all, halflings are feral cannibals that see all other intelligent humanoids as food and are usually confined to jungle areas.

[DanyBallon]

Half Giants are familiar sights in all the cities of the tablelands, and are a part of most of the armies. Similarly, kreen are one of the dominant races on Athas, and are quite common in a number of cities. Both of them actually outnumber halflings in the tablelands, so they should not be treated as rare races - quite the opposite. They are proportionally far more common on Athas than Tieflings or Dragonborn are on Toril or Oerth.

Considering the lore surrounding the two races, they should not be in the "ask your gm" unless the party has an elf present, and more of a reason could be made for the halflings to be in that category rather than either kreen or half giants. After all, halflings are feral cannibals that see all other intelligent humanoids as food and are usually confined to jungle areas.

Athasian halfling are definatly in the "ask your DM" category. DS common races are humans, mul, dwarves and elves. The later two being common, but haves particuliarites that can make them rarer in certain area or cities.

Also, it's not because that Half-giants are common in armies or that Thri-kreen form large pack roaming the tablelands, that they should be automatically available to all without DM approval.

[Nibenay]

I'm happy to see so many interested in the Darksun setting and the various ideas presented here!


Got half giant you can reskin a goliath. For the keen... No clue. Several of my group found the goliath a bit underwhelming for a HG. He's basically not stronger than a dwarf. Of course the Goliath isn't large like the HG was.


The Tiefling and Dragonborn races has traits that improve with level.
You can use then as base to your Thri-Kreen and spread the TK bonuses between levels.
It's quite possible we will use some of this for the Kreen. Especially the poison effects might start out weaker like giving "poisoned" status at low level and actually causing real paralysis at higher level. The old version was incredibly strong at low level as a failed save = instakill.


Here is one take. (http://tribality.com/2014/12/19/5th-edition-thri-kreen/)
Another idea would be to have instead of a background, have a racial memory. In the Dark Sun setting, and described in the Thri-Kreen of Athas guidebook, thri-kreen have racial memories. So the race would have all the traits relating to race, and the racial memory would include proficiency in the kreen weaponry, stealth and survival.

For the half giants, they were retconned as goliaths in 4e, but I loved the original version, that was actually half giants.

Ability Score Increase – Your Strength increases by 2 and your Constitution increases by 2
Size – Half Giants Stand between 10 and 12 feet tall and weigh between 1200 and 1600 pounds. You are a large creature
Speed – Your base speed is 35 feet
Giant Heritage – You are a giant, and as a large creature, you can carry, push, drag or lift double what a medium sized creature of your strength can physically manipulate.
Huge appetite - As a result of your stature, you require twice the amount of food and water than a human, and clothing and equipment need twice the material to construct to fit a half-giant.
Made Warrior – Half-Giants were said to be created to be a warrior race. You have a reach of 10 feet. You can wield 2-handed weapons and weapons with the "heavy" keyword with one hand, but you take disadvantage when using weapons with the "light" keyword. You treat weapons with the "versatile" keyword as "light" weapons for your size (Used normally for "light" weapons.). When using a 2-handed weapon, you can add your proficiency bonus to the damage roll.

Thats the version one of my players used. We put that campaign on ice due to lack of psionics in 5e, and while he was pretty brutal in combat, the demands of food and lack of social skills were a big drawback.
We've looked at it, it does contain several good ideas. I'm wondering though...I can't remember the kreen ever having chameleon skin? IIRC the chitin colors were usually sandy or grayish? (which would be quite advantageous in the desert of course).


*sigh*
thri-kreen and half-giant were never really meant to be played alongside regular PHB races. they were on the high end of a substantially higher scale, one where dwarves could get 22 constitution and have natural regeneration and be as strong as a regular giant, for example.

if you want to bring in half-giant and thri-kreen and have them at full AD&D strength, you're going to need to change the scale for *all* of the races, otherwise you're just setting yourself up to get very frustrated.
To clarify a bit here - We have been playing 5e regular setup on a later Athas where things are "normal", so we've actually had a group playing in temperate to artic environment. We will probably now play in the desert areas where I believe the old races/civilization of athas has to some degree survived. I'm guessing eventual humans and other default races will be stronger if they come from the desert area than the races from the temperate area.


Why would you want them to be significantly more powerful than the default races?
See above answer, and to reflect that the old Darksun races were stronger and more resillient. At least this is the feel we're looking for.


Since Half-Giant and Thri-kreen are very specific races from Darksun setting and were traditionnally stronger, we could just adapt the ability score penalty there was in 2e. In your typical Darksun game both race were rare to be encountered and can be considered as being alien, so working a bit out of the usual frame of 5e race is fine by me.
As it must be 10-15 years since we played Darksun regularly, I admit my memory has lost some of the lore of Athas, but in our games neither Kreen nor HG were anything rare to encounter. Kreen packs roamed the desert (and the elves) while HG generally made high power guards/bouncers/heavy labour/etc in the cities. We usually tried to avoid the packs...


half-giants were never weak...[]... the half-giant was not mechanically unimpressive. they were terrifyingly powerful warriors that could become nearly unkillable at high levels, and could deal massive amounts of damage.
Indeed. They might be easy to fool and lead, but they had lots of hitpoints and you didn't want to be hit by that 5d6+12 two handed sword they carried. Especially as we used to include critical effects.. and a natural 20 from a 24str half giant was extremely devastating to any creature.


Half Giants are familiar sights in all the cities of the tablelands, and are a part of most of the armies. Similarly, kreen are one of the dominant races on Athas, and are quite common in a number of cities. Both of them actually outnumber halflings in the tablelands, so they should not be treated as rare races - quite the opposite. They are proportionally far more common on Athas than Tieflings or Dragonborn are on Toril or Oerth.

Considering the lore surrounding the two races, they should not be in the "ask your gm" unless the party has an elf present, and more of a reason could be made for the halflings to be in that category rather than either kreen or half giants. After all, halflings are feral cannibals that see all other intelligent humanoids as food and are usually confined to jungle areas.

Indeed, the halflings would have way more issues in the cities than the kreen I think. They usually only eat sentient beings when absolutely needed (except juicy elves,..but noone likes them anyways), which many other races probably eventually would do also in a dire situation...

As pointed out by several others, there are "non mechanical" downsides to both races.
HG:

You're looked down upon by most others and might experience social issues by this.
Who do you throw your blasting at when you fight 3-4 regular sized humanoids.. or the 1500 pound half giant with that 3 meter two handed sword? The half giant gets the flak. (DM has done this before, and he said it will usually happen)
The food/water requirement, especially in a hot desert water can be quite the issue. Forget about create (food and) water, as you get almost no water in the Darksun version
Armor and weapons cost more, harder to come by
Also means you'll probably find less useful magic armor and stuff than a regular human sized character.



Kreen:

mistrust and fear due to alienness.
Doesn't function well if humid area (chitin rots/softens) or in water (drowns easily, not well made for swimming).
Same as for HG - can't use many items made for regular humanoids, reduses potential magic items

Dark sun gnome - Nibenay is here for you!

[LibraryOgre]

Hmmm... half-giants.

+4 strength
Advantage on hit die rolls.
Large size (with all that entails).
Maybe include a disadvantage against enchantment/charm spells?

[Belac93]

I would say this:

Thri-kreen
Ability score increase. Your Dexterity increases by 2 and your Wisdom, Strength, or Constitution increases by 1.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 35 feet. This increases to 40 feet at 5th level.
Chameleon Carapace. You have advantage on stealth rolls as long as you take 5 minutes of uninterrupted time to focus yourself on hiding. You lose this benefit if you attack or move more than 10 feet in a round.
Standing Jump. Your long jump is 20 feet and your high jump is 10 feet, with or without a running start. This increases to 30 and 15 feet respectively at 3rd level.
Claws You have 2 claws that you are proficient in. They are light weapons that deal 1d4 slashing damage.
Bite. You have a bite attack that you are proficient in. It deals 1d6 damage, and a hit target must make a Constitution saving throw or be poisoned for 1 minute. Rolling a 1 on the save makes them paralyzed while poisoned in this way. The creature may repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns. The DC for the saving throw is equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier.
Darkvision. You have darkvision out to 60 feet.
Kreen weapon training. You have proficiency with Gythkas and Chatkchas.
Bad Swimmer. You have disadvantage on skill checks to swim.
Alien. You have disadvantage on all Charisma skill checks except intimidation against non-thri-kreen creatures. Creatures will most often be hostile to you.
Natural armor Your base AC is equal to 13 + your Dexterity modifier. Any armor you wear costs twice as much if it is light, three times as much for medium, and four times as much for heavy.
4 Arms. You may interact with 1 extra object every turn.
Sleepless. You may perform light tasks (such as patrolling, slow travel, or talking) during a long rest.
Languages. You can speak Thri-Kreen.


Half Giants would be:


Half Giant
Ability score increase. Your Strength increases by 3 and your Constitution increases by 1. Your choice of Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma decreases by 1.
Size. Your size is medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 35 feet.
Large. You may wield larger than normal weapons. Any larger than normal weapon deals an extra 1d4 damage on a hit. In addition, all armor you wear costs 1.5x the base cost.
Tough. You gain an extra 1 hit point per level.
Languages. You can speak common or giant.

[LibraryOgre]

Incidentally, I have always hated the "Kreen have 4 arms so they can weild two two-handed weapons!" interpretation. That's not how it works. That's not how greatswords or greataxes work. You'd simply get in your own way.

[gfishfunk]

Right. I would imagine that the momentum from one swing would throw off the next.

[LibraryOgre]

Right. I would imagine that the momentum from one swing would throw off the next.

Not to mention simply how they are held and wielded! We carry them cross-body, not just because our manipulators are on opposite sides, but to allow the sweeps and cuts they operate on.

[SharkForce]

Not to mention simply how they are held and wielded! We carry them cross-body, not just because our manipulators are on opposite sides, but to allow the sweeps and cuts they operate on.

that doesn't mean you couldn't develop a different style (which a four-armed race presumably could do) that doesn't rely on cross-body.

I mean, it isn't like sweeps and cuts are physically impossible with one-handed swords, last I checked.

[LibraryOgre]

that doesn't mean you couldn't develop a different style (which a four-armed race presumably could do) that doesn't rely on cross-body.

I mean, it isn't like sweeps and cuts are physically impossible with one-handed swords, last I checked.

Yes, but they happen cross-body. Someone trying to use thri-kreen arms to use two-handed weapons would be mostly limited to vertical chops or punching.

[Belac93]

I mean, it isn't like sweeps and cuts are physically impossible with one-handed swords, last I checked.

And also the weight of the swords would be a problem. Have you ever lifted a two handed broadsword? If you have, try to imagine doing that with one arm and a one-handed 8 year old helping you. Now do that on your other side, and now try to fight with them.

See what I'm getting at? This picture (http://eberronunlimited.wdfiles.com/local--files/thri-kreen/cp2209_thri%20kreen.jpg) shows the difference in arm size quite well I think. Before anybody says that he is holding a two handed weapon, yes, he is. However, he is clearly using it as a walking stick, not as a weapon at the moment. I would assume that in a fight he would use both his large arms.

[SharkForce]

Yes, but they happen cross-body. Someone trying to use thri-kreen arms to use two-handed weapons would be mostly limited to vertical chops or punching.

seeing as how we're letting a regular person do basically that with scimitars (and probably an assortment of other weapons that are equally absurd), who cares?


And also the weight of the swords would be a problem. Have you ever lifted a two handed broadsword? If you have, try to imagine doing that with one arm and a one-handed 8 year old helping you. Now do that on your other side, and now try to fight with them.

See what I'm getting at? This picture (http://eberronunlimited.wdfiles.com/local--files/thri-kreen/cp2209_thri%20kreen.jpg) shows the difference in arm size quite well I think. Before anybody says that he is holding a two handed weapon, yes, he is. However, he is clearly using it as a walking stick, not as a weapon at the moment. I would assume that in a fight he would use both his large arms.

thri-kreen don't have arms like an 8 year old child. when they throw a dart, it is just as strong as when a human of equal strength throws the dart. when they arm wrestle, they roll the same as a human with the same strength. when they grapple, they use the same strength. and so on, and so forth. there is no "when you use your other arms, you have only half as much strength" rule. they all have the same strength.


(also, original thri-kreen didn't have different arm sizes, as i recall. they've mutated quite a bit over the years, and get less mantis-y and more man-y every time).

[Nibenay]

Regarding the arms, I can't remember any mention that either pair was weaker than the other in the original setting. The cover illustrates the arms quite well I think - Thri-Kreen of Athas cover (http://static.intelimedia.pl/sub/bn24975.jpg). As Sharkforce points out, they have changed since the beginning. Personally I'm a fan of the insect looking one! The humanoid looks like a weird mutation of human/kreen.

That said one can always argue what would be "realistic" or not to wield in four hands and trying to coordinate that. I think that discussion would end up with what people "feel" are okay and maybe to prevent the extra attacks to be overpowered. A 20 str kreen could probably wield four d8 or d10 weapons, but it might be a bit over the top.

My thoughts is that one could wield a large weapon (gythka) with two arms and the two others would be limited to claws or small weapons up to the size of shortswords. Of course you run into the issue.. why can't the kreen just wield 2 shields in the extra arms? +4 AC ftw...
(No I don't think it would be balanced...)

[Theodoxus]

No reason a kreen couldn't wield a greatsword in its upper hands and a longsword in its lower - this would allow it to cross-body with both weapons, at different elevations. While nearly everything I've ever seen depicts them using polearms in the same vertical side, I would imagine this is the least efficient use of their arms.

Personally, I like the way General Grievous used his four arms. Were I to play a kreen, I'd emulate him (4 sunswords for the win!)

[M Placeholder]

Personally I'm a fan of the insect looking one! The humanoid looks like a weird mutation of human/kreen.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l0IA8514Fc4/UWmsCLTjIaI/AAAAAAAAqxs/KKCQA5tzfr4/s1600/2.JPG

The artwork that John Dollar did for Thri-Kreen of Athas really brought them to life.

[LibraryOgre]

seeing as how we're letting a regular person do basically that with scimitars (and probably an assortment of other weapons that are equally absurd), who cares?

Because of how you hold them, and how big they are.

Imagine, for a moment, that you have someone standing behind you, with slightly longer arms (so, even though you're close together, your arms are the same length). How are you going to use two 2-handed weapons? We'll call them LT, RT, LB and RB... Left Top, Right Top, Left Bottom, Right Bottom.

If you go with cross body, with LT and RT holding the same weapon, and LB and RB holding the second, your bottom weapon is going to interfere with the top. If you go LT and LB, you have a very limited range of movement, because your pivot points (shoulders) are about 6"-1' apart, and you can really only operate in the rhombus allowed by the maximum length of the arm.

A lot of these problems disappear if you're using two-one handed weapons as a human, or four one-handed weapons as a thri-kreen, or one two-handed and two one-handed as a kreen, because you're not trying to work with some of the funky geometry. Your bottom weapons shouldn't be too long (four longswords is probably awkward), but you don't have to deal with nearly the restriction on range of movement.

[DanyBallon]

The sourcebook Thri-Kreen of Athas, had a text box about attacking with four arms. It's mostly for balance issue, but it goes as follow; Your primary set of weapon must be medium or light, and your second set of weapon must be light. They must come in pair (so possible way to wield 4 different type of weapons). Two-handed weapons use either top or lower arms, they cannot be wield in combat using arms on the same side. A two-handed weapon replace a pair of weapon.

I'm not sure, but I think you could replace a claw for a light weapon in a pair.

[Belac93]

The sourcebook Thri-Kreen of Athas, had a text box about attacking with four arms.

If you are all so concerned about the four arms thing, why don't you just say they can hold 4 weapons? It may not give them extra attacks, but there's not really a balanced way of doing that. Just let them hold 4 weapons, and attack the same. If they have 2 longswords, they can attack with both, but only if they have dual wielder or extra attack.

Mechanically its the same, but you can flavor it however you want. If you really want a Thri-kreen thats balanced, play a variant human monk with dual wielder and poisoners tools. Done.

[JackPhoenix]

Thri-kreen also solves the problem with wielding crossbow and shield, or dual wielding crossbow (or both at the same time...2 hand crossbows, shield, and a free hand to load)...or even triple-wielding crossbows!