Replacing Prestidigitation

[rdcoll]

I don't really care for Prestidigitation - it feels very flavourless to me.

It seems like every caster takes it (understandably) and I suppose that makes sense if it supposed to represent "practice" spells, but I would think that the types of things an illusionist would practice would be very different than the types of things a necromancer would practice.

What I'm thinking about is scrapping the generic Prestidigitation in favour of casters choosing maybe 4 or 6 lesser effects that are on-par (in terms of power) with the standard prestidigitation effects (lift, colour, chill, etc.). This would allow some customization, and maybe it would even be a good idea to allow them each to be cast only once a day (rather than "as many as you can do in an hour").

I haven't really thought this through yet and I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts to share on this.

Anyone tried something similar? Would this essentially be creation a less-than-0th level spell list?

[Segev]

Eh, I think it's a good cantrip as it is. It's not so much that it's "practice spells" as it's a bunch of minor effects that let wizards feel like wizards. People who use magic for all sorts of mundane purposes.

I think trying to make specialized versions for various schools has some interesting potential, but that it risks making some schools more powerful than others if one isn't careful about the utility of these specialist effects.

[ThisIsZen]

Well I think the thing you need to ask is if the added complexity is actually gaining you anything. Prestidigitation is a handy catch-all for non-mechanical spell effects that add flavor. You could create a sort of "Least Mage Hand/Magic Dye/Guy's Fantastic Seasoning" set of spells to duplicate the functions of prestidigitation, but is it really worth it to nerf a 0th level spell with no explicit mechanical power?

It also means you end up with 6 or 7 incredibly niche 0ths that will see almost no use, when those effects might see play if they were still all contained within Prestidigitation. It's gotta compete against stuff like Detect/Read Magic, Light, and similar utility spells after all. I'd prepare Prestidigitation, but under most circumstances I'd just buy salt and pepper instead of preparing Guy's Fantastic Seasoning. :P

[rdcoll]

Segev: I'm not trying to argue that Prestidigitation isn't good - its absolutely a powerful spell, but if everybody is taking it then the ability to achieve these effects isn't really all that special, right?

ThisIsZen: Point taken, but I did not mean to imply that the effects would need to be prepared separately.

What I meant is that every caster should not necessarily have access to every effect. Instead I am thinking of the idea of replacing Prestidigitation with a customizable Prestidigitation.

[Bobbybobby99]

Seems like uneeded extra complexity to me. Spellcasters still have plenty of uniqueness, and complexity, in terms of their other spells; having one versatile spell that they can all do is just common sense. For fighter type playing players, this would just be another extra bit of complexity in a complex system, and this is DnD, not GURPS.

[Crake]

I think the point that segev was trying to make is that prestidigitation is basically the arcane caster's quality of life spell. It's the thing that actually lets them pursue their studies instead of having to spend hours of their day doing menial chores. Need to wash your clothes/bedsheets/home? Got you covered. Want to have a tasty meal? generic healthy gruel and some flavouring all good. Coffee gone cold? Spend a minute or so and it's all warmed up. Need that book from across the room, but need to hold your compass in place? Easy peasy.

As segev said, it's what makes wizards feel magical, instead of just like a mundane pleb who can cast some spells every now and then. All of the effects are pretty universal from what I can tell, I can't really think of any of them that a particular school might ignore or have an affinity for in any way.

[Segev]

Yeah, the point is that it's not SUPPOSED to be a differentiating point between various wizards. If they care to differentiate themselves, the way they describe their effects can do it.

Perhaps one mage cleans his clothes by conjuring green suds that wash and scrub through it, while another sends cleansing "fire" through it that only burns out the grime, and still another shakes it dramatically and the dirt and such falls right out.

[rdcoll]

Alrighty...

I can't say I'm convinced - I was under the impression it was supposed to represent "practice magic", not a "quality of life spell" (and a quick poke around the forums shows that many casters treat it as a 0th Level version of Wish).

I still believe the practice exercises of some specialists would have to differ from others, but I understand the "if it isn't broken don't try to fix it" position. I'll just have to give it more thought. Thanks for the discussion!

[ComaVision]

You can't change Prestidigitation because there needs to be a way to make the Arch-Lich pink with no SR or saving throw.

[rdcoll]

Totally ... but maybe only an illusionist should be able to pull off a trick like that! :smallwink:

[Yeowan]

Why not just do that for flavor/RP purposes, then? If you are a player with it, then just use it for things your caster would do.

You are a necromancer with black robes, but you can't exactly show your true colors for some reason. Just use prestidigitation to turn your clothes red. Or use it to look especially evil evil while creating undead and make little dark puffs of smoke appear.

Maybe you are an enchanter. Charm some ladies and create a small flower or other benign, pretty object to impress them.

Or, if you are the DM, just rule that the wizards/sorcerers have to use it in a way that makes sense for their character. Either option gives you the flavor you want without having to change anything mechanically.

[Troacctid]

5th Edition has like seven different versions of Prestidigitation. There's the standard version, the cleric version, the druid version, and four elemental versions.

[Bullet06320]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444094-About-cantips-prestidigitations

if you haven't already read that, its a good primer on prestidigitation and all the potential uses

[Bakkan]

It makes sense to me that (essentially) all wizards have some set of skills in common. Take mathematics for example. Mathematicians can study abstract algebra, real analysis, complex analysis, differential equations, low-dimensional topology, high-dimensional topology, set theory, numerical analysis, and a bevy of other options. Two mathematicians from different fields will have vastly different experience and expertise. However, essentially all of them know undergraduate calculus. Calculus is like the "Prestidigitation" of mathematics.

[gtwucla]

I never really liked it either, but mostly because it seems like (and in fact is) a spell of convenience. Most spells have pretty specific effects, whereas this one just does everything within reason. They took all the kooky spells from 2e and boiled it down to prestidigitation so the game 'flowed' better. Personally, I prefer kooky.

(take a look in the 2e spell compendiums, really they're a fun read)

[nyjastul69]

You can't change Prestidigitation because there needs to be a way to make the Arch-Lich pink with no SR or saving throw.

I wish people would read the Prestidigitation spell description. The spell can only 'color, clean or soil' items. Creatures cannot be affected by this element of the spell. No, the Lich cannot be turned pink, purple, or any other color.

[rdcoll]

I never really liked it either, but mostly because it seems like (and in fact is) a spell of convenience. Most spells have pretty specific effects, whereas this one just does everything within reason. They took all the kooky spells from 2e and boiled it down to prestidigitation so the game 'flowed' better. Personally, I prefer kooky.

(take a look in the 2e spell compendiums, really they're a fun read)

Thanks - I am familiar with the 2e approach and that is definitely an approach I prefer over a "do whatever you feel like as long as it is relatively inconsequential" spell. I understand that they were trying to simplify the mechanics by rolling most of those spells into one, but I think they overdid it.

@Troacctid

I was not really familiar with 5th Edition, but it does sound like that is closer to what I had in mind - druidcraft as prestidigitation for druids, shape water as prestidigitation (sort of) for casters with a water focus, etc.

I definitely would like to something like that in 3.5 - maybe one for each of the schools of arcane magic?

[Bullet06320]

Dragon Magazine 221 pg 20 The Little Wish article, its 2nd edition but its a decent article and may be what your looking for, basically have a prestidigitation for each school, that can do specific type effects based on what school it is

[KillianHawkeye]

I think it's important to note that all wizards have to start with the basics before they can become specialists. Prestidigitation isn't an adventuring wizard's daily practice spells, it's the culmination of their "Arcana 101: Intro to Magic" course. It's everything you get in "Little Timmy's First Spellbook, 3rd Edition" all rolled up into one little spell.

[Eisfalken]

I think people look at prestidigitation totally wrong. It's a universal spell; it has no school.

Know what other two spells have that categorization? Limited wish and wish, spells meant to alter the very fundamentals of reality itself.

Instead of looking at prestidigitation as some kind of "catch-all" spell, look at it as the very fundamental training a caster gets into reshaping reality via magic. It makes the most subtle alterations to the world around you that magic can arguably do without physical labor... but it makes those alterations with only a thought for a whole hour.

From this humble starting point, a spellcaster learns to funnel arcane energy into specific, more useful ways. Spells stop being something you tick off on a list; they become a kind of skill unto themselves, operating according to the laws of arcane magic (whatever they may be).

I think taking out this spell and replacing it with a tedious selection doesn't enrich your game, just makes it more tedious and boring for spellcasters, especially wizards who get all cantrips for free anyway, and thus already have any alternative to prestidigitation you could possibly come up with.

[rdcoll]

I think people look at prestidigitation totally wrong. It's a universal spell; it has no school.

Instead of looking at prestidigitation as some kind of "catch-all" spell, look at it as the very fundamental training a caster gets into reshaping reality via magic. It makes the most subtle alterations to the world around you that magic can arguably do without physical labor... but it makes those alterations with only a thought for a whole hour.

Except of course that it was actually designed as a catch-all spell - quite plainly a collection of several minor magical effects under a "do-as-many-as-you-want-in-an-hour" umbrella. You don't have to look particularly deep in 2E to find when each of those effects was its own cantrip.

Naturally I recognize the option of having the DM make a ruling every time someone tries to use one of these effects - that option ALWAYS exists and I am not contesting it - but I, for one, am interested in what I would consider an improvement to the mechanics.

@Bullet06320
Thanks for that reference - that is definitely the kind of thing I am looking for!

[Bohandas]

I wouldn't be opposed to the addition of school-specific prestidigitation analogs

[Bullet06320]

I wouldn't be opposed to the addition of school-specific prestidigitation analogs

its not a bad sounding idea, that should also include specialists not being able to cast effects from banned schools

[Anlashok]

This seems like the weirdest way to try to nerf arcane casters.

To me prestidigitation did a good job covering the concept of minor, practical that it seems like every wizard should have but isn't always covered by rules in the game.

But I guess if illusionists being able to light pipes and evokers making trail rations taste better is that upsetting it's not the end of the world.

[P.F.]

Except of course that it was actually designed as a catch-all spell - quite plainly a collection of several minor magical effects under a "do-as-many-as-you-want-in-an-hour" umbrella. You don't have to look particularly deep in 2E to find when each of those effects was its own cantrip.


They took all the kooky spells from 2e and boiled it down to prestidigitation so the game 'flowed' better.

The Second Edition spell Cantrip had the effect of "tinklings of ethereal music, brightening faded flowers, glowing balls that float over the caster's hand, puffs of wind to flicker candles, spicing up aromas and flavors of bland food, and little whirlwinds to sweep dust under rugs." While some of the other effects of prestidigitation were rolled in from other 1st-level Second Ed. spells, Cantrip was always a catch-all spell.

[rdcoll]

The Second Edition spell Cantrip had the effect of "tinklings of ethereal music, brightening faded flowers, glowing balls that float over the caster's hand, puffs of wind to flicker candles, spicing up aromas and flavors of bland food, and little whirlwinds to sweep dust under rugs." While some of the other effects of prestidigitation were rolled in from other 1st-level Second Ed. spells, Cantrip was always a catch-all spell.

My apologies - you are correct. I was thinking of 1E. In 1E they were described as minor spells learned by apprentices during training. They were separate spells with names like "Colored Lights", "Firefinger", "Change", "Chill", "Clean", "Dampen", "Spice", etc. and, as you say, they were first rolled into a single "catch-all" spell in 2E.

The 1E approach was something I thought was more flavourful - having the collection of practice spells be different depending on what "field" the caster eventually goes into - so rather than having everyone be able to do everything, I would have liked to see casters choose a subset of these effects for their prestidigitation spell, rather than all of them.

[Mystral]

I don't really care for Prestidigitation - it feels very flavourless to me.

It seems like every caster takes it (understandably) and I suppose that makes sense if it supposed to represent "practice" spells, but I would think that the types of things an illusionist would practice would be very different than the types of things a necromancer would practice.

What I'm thinking about is scrapping the generic Prestidigitation in favour of casters choosing maybe 4 or 6 lesser effects that are on-par (in terms of power) with the standard prestidigitation effects (lift, colour, chill, etc.). This would allow some customization, and maybe it would even be a good idea to allow them each to be cast only once a day (rather than "as many as you can do in an hour").

I haven't really thought this through yet and I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts to share on this.

Anyone tried something similar? Would this essentially be creation a less-than-0th level spell list?

How about one for every school of magic, but a bit more powerfull in exchange for lost versatility?

Abjuration protects against wear and tear and proofs against water, heat, mud and cold.
Conjuration summons harmless animals (Like summon monster, but with a squirrel) and small objects.
Divination slightly enhances senses and gives minor foresight or hindsight.
Enchantment makes people slightly more helpfull or drowsy.
Evocation chills or warms, lights small fires and does 1 damage as a close ranged touch attack at will (energy type of users choice)
Illusion produces small figments that fool one sense
Necromancy.. uh, perhaps something that kills small insects?
And transmutation for movement and cleaning and soiling

[P.F.]

I can't see how it could hurt, since prestidigitation by definition cannot do anything with a measurable game rule effect, and you could have an unlimited number of spells that do nothing. However, a wizard can prepare only a few cantrips per day (regardless of intelligence) and I prepare prestidigitation entirely for the versatility and role-playing purposes. After read magic, detect magic, light, and mage hand, I'm left with only two slots, and while prestidigitation might go in one of them, soil or dampen probably won't if they are still competing with things like mending and ghost sound. Firefinger (the spell which lights a lady's cigarette and makes the fighter jealous) would probably be on my short-list though.

An alternative that might work for your purposes is to create flavorful sub-cantrips by enumerating the possible effects of prestidigitation and then limiting the number of potential effects of the spell to certain pre-selected flavors chosen during character creation.

[Chronos]

Leave it up to the players. If an illusionist wants to mostly use Presti for illusionary effects, and so on, let them. And in fact they probably will, if they're role-playing well. There's no need for a rule to enforce it.

[rdcoll]

An alternative that might work for your purposes is to create flavorful sub-cantrips by enumerating the possible effects of prestidigitation and then limiting the number of potential effects of the spell to certain pre-selected flavors chosen during character creation.

Yeah, that's something I could get behind. Has anyone seen or used something like that before?

[Bohandas]

I wish people would read the Prestidigitation spell description. The spell can only 'color, clean or soil' items. Creatures cannot be affected by this element of the spell. No, the Lich cannot be turned pink, purple, or any other color.

It can also flavor things, levitate one pound objects, slightly warm things, slightly cool things, blow very light objects around, create a very limited range of lo-res sounds, and create small cheap flimsy replica items.

[rdcoll]

It can also flavor things, levitate one pound objects, slightly warm things, slightly cool things, blow very light objects around, create a very limited range of lo-res sounds, and create small cheap flimsy replica items.

Yes each of those effects is possible, but I think nyjastul69 was referring to the fact that the spell description only specifies being able to apply the colour/clean/soil effects to items, and not creatures.

[Bohandas]

Oh.

I need to read these threads more carefully.

[Akal Saris]

Dragon Magazine 221 pg 20 The Little Wish article, its 2nd edition but its a decent article and may be what your looking for, basically have a prestidigitation for each school, that can do specific type effects based on what school it is

What edition is this one? I recall there was a 2E Dragon Magazine that had a good piece on different prestigitations as well.

[ComaVision]

I wish people would read the Prestidigitation spell description. The spell can only 'color, clean or soil' items. Creatures cannot be affected by this element of the spell. No, the Lich cannot be turned pink, purple, or any other color.

So the Lich's robes were turned pink, purple, or any other colour.

[Bullet06320]

Dragon Magazine 221 pg 20 The Little Wish article, its 2nd edition but its a decent article and may be what your looking for, basically have a prestidigitation for each school, that can do specific type effects based on what school it is


What edition is this one? I recall there was a 2E Dragon Magazine that had a good piece on different prestigitations as well.

I'm guessing you missed your spot check? I bolded the important part, it is 2nd edition, but it seems relevant to the discussion
no worries tho, I've missed my spot check in a few threads recently, lol

[arkangel111]

I don't know if anyone has suggested it yet but the Kineticist from PF has several "cantrips" for their basic "kinesis" spells could at least give you a good idea of where to go.