Simple solution to the 'vampire problem'

[Alex Warlorn]

A simple solution to the vampire problem.

Step 1) Heal up Roy, no rule against that, (and he doesn't run out of 'swing sword' slots).

Step 2) Realize the vampire choose his successor completely at random, so she is NOT likely as strong as the vampire dwarf.

Step 3) Realize all the other vampires took off to brainwash the dwarf council.

Step 4) Destroyed current vampire high priest of Hel.

Step 5) No cleric, no vote for Hel, no tie, no tie breaker from the demi-gods.

Step 6) Hel is forced to have one of her minions return.

step 7) Roy takes a page out of the vampire's playbook and appoints V the new body guard, so he can zap through the shell of anti-life.

Step 8) Rinse and repeat.

[Jasdoif]

Step 4) Destroyed current vampire high priest of Hel.
....
step 7) Roy takes a page out of the vampire's playbook and appoints V the new body guard, so he can zap through the shell of anti-life.If Roy's not the bodyguard of the new High Priest of Hel, he'll be executed for destroying her. If he's not, he has no standing to appoint a new bodyguard. Although I suppose that isn't actually relevant, because....


Step 5) No cleric, no vote for Hel, no tie, no tie breaker from the demi-gods.

Step 6) Hel is forced to have one of her minions return.No tie means the vote is concluded, doesn't it? Why would Hel have one of her minions return when it's too late instead of, say, having all of them go after the Gate to get the gods to destroy the world despite the vote...which might be happening anyway?

[NerdyKris]

I'm not sure why you think healing Roy is allowed. If he's a member of the church, then it's the same scenario already described, and the other side will buff the vampire. If he's not a member of the church, then the other side is going to attack him as an intruder interfering with the vote.

Also, Hel's vote is already cast and finished. The vote has moved on to the demigods. Killing the high priest now doesn't do anything. He would have to kill one of the representatives of the demigods to affect the vote now, and then you're back at the other side destroying him.

[Jasdoif]

Also, Hel's vote is already cast and finished. The vote has moved on to the demigods. Killing the high priest now doesn't do anything.Are you sure? The vote would have moved on to the demigods as soon as Hel's vote was cast, before Roy's attempt to neutralize the vote and HPoH at the same time. And why bother leaving a new high priestess at all if it was unnecessary?

[factotum]

I agree with Jasdoif. The other high priests seem pretty resigned to the fact they'll be spending a couple of days in that chamber while the demigod vote is decided--if the votes were now "locked in" there would be nothing stopping them leaving.

[Roland Itiative]

Roy most certainly doesn't have the power to appoint a new bodyguard. A high priest can resign from their post at any moment, and appoint a successor, but if a bodyguard does the same, the decision of picking a new bodyguard would most likely fall into the high priest's hand, so Roy would simply be losing any leverage he has, and getting some random vampire get the same level of protection he now enjoys.

[Bobb]

Roy most certainly doesn't have the power to appoint a new bodyguard. A high priest can resign from their post at any moment, and appoint a successor, but if a bodyguard does the same, the decision of picking a new bodyguard would most likely fall into the high priest's hand, so Roy would simply be losing any leverage he has, and getting some random vampire get the same level of protection he now enjoys.

"Most likely" doesn't factor into the rules of the godsmoot.

We seem to be running on "if it doesn't say I can't then I can."

[NerdyKris]

I'm under the assumption that since Roy stopped his attack when the demigod vote started, that until they entered, he could still effect the vote. This is backed up by his request that the halfling stall them from entering the room.

But aside from that, op's theory was explicitly addressed in the strip. Imagine the loophole if you could just send a non affiliated assassin into the meeting and heal him with no repercussions.

[Reddish Mage]

If the priests have to be present for their deity's vote to continue count, couldn't just any one of the clerics of the "Destroy the world" faction just leave and nullify their deity's vote?

It seems that there might be a high priest or two (or a deity or two) that might want to nullify their vote given the circumstances.

[Mandor]

If the priests have to be present for their deity's vote to continue count, couldn't just any one of the clerics of the "Destroy the world" faction just leave and nullify their deity's vote?

It seems that there might be a high priest or two (or a deity or two) that might want to nullify their vote given the circumstances.

Highly unlikely. Could they? Yes. But why? Remember these aren't just random employees of a business. These are *priests*. Sworn to the service and glory of a god that they actually KNOW is real. They ultimately believe in their god's wisdom to do the right thing even when they don't see it. They believe in the cause and trust their deity, or they would never have become priests in the first place. See the last two panels here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html Now, if the vote is to destroy the world, would they and their families die? Yes. Would they consider that worse than a chance that the Snarl might literally UNCREATE the souls of their family if things go wrong? Doubtful.

[Jasdoif]

I'm under the assumption that since Roy stopped his attack when the demigod vote startedRoy was still trying to attack through the anti-life shell after six of the demigods had voted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html).

[NerdyKris]

You're right on that part. It looked like he stopped, but he started up again.


If the priests have to be present for their deity's vote to continue count, couldn't just any one of the clerics of the "Destroy the world" faction just leave and nullify their deity's vote?

It seems that there might be a high priest or two (or a deity or two) that might want to nullify their vote given the circumstances.

As has been mentioned hundreds of times on this board and shown in the comic, they cannot physically leave. There's a giant barrier surrounding the room. That's why the halfling couldn't just go get them, he had to yell "CAKE".

[factotum]

As has been mentioned hundreds of times on this board and shown in the comic, they cannot physically leave. There's a giant barrier surrounding the room.

A barrier that clearly doesn't block teleportation, because Durkula just got out that way. It just needs a priest to have prepared Word of Recall and they can leave just fine. I don't think they will, because of the aforementioned "I believe in my God and will do what it takes to preserve their vote" sort of thing.

Although...now I'm thinking along those lines, how is *Roy* going to get out? AFAIK there is no divine equivalent to teleportation (other than Word of Recall, which only works for one person to a specific location) and the only arcane caster anywhere around can't teleport either--so is he stuck inside the room for the duration?

[hroþila]

The only people who have left are some vampires with no formal role in the Godsmoot anymore. The barrier or some other magic might well block Word of Recall when used by someone who actually matters.

[Rift_Wolf]

Although...now I'm thinking along those lines, how is *Roy* going to get out? AFAIK there is no divine equivalent to teleportation (other than Word of Recall, which only works for one person to a specific location) and the only arcane caster anywhere around can't teleport either--so is he stuck inside the room for the duration?

My guess (based on nothing) is the 'barrier' is more a 'zone marker'. If you're inside the zone, you count as part of the Godsmoot. Leaving the zone disqualifies you. That's why Hpo Baldr didn't pass the barrier; he didn't want to negate his vote. People can enter the zone (Creed vamps, Hpo Demis), and we've seen no evidence it would physically block someone's exit.

[Roland Itiative]

"Most likely" doesn't factor into the rules of the godsmoot.

We seem to be running on "if it doesn't say I can't then I can."

It's just logic, really. A bodyguard doesn't hire himself, he gets hired by the person who needs guarding. So it makes no sense for a bodyguard to be able to transplant his post to someone else without the consent and agreement of the person who hired him. At most he can leave his post, at which point the decision to pick a new bodyguard goes to the High Priest of Hel.

[137beth]

A barrier that clearly doesn't block teleportation, because Durkula just got out that way. It just needs a priest to have prepared Word of Recall and they can leave just fine. I don't think they will, because of the aforementioned "I believe in my God and will do what it takes to preserve their vote" sort of thing.

Although...now I'm thinking along those lines, how is *Roy* going to get out? AFAIK there is no divine equivalent to teleportation (other than Word of Recall, which only works for one person to a specific location) and the only arcane caster anywhere around can't teleport either--so is he stuck inside the room for the duration?

I'm guessing the Godsmoot will be formally over by the time Roy is ready to leave, at which point the barrier might be removed automatically.

[factotum]

I'm guessing the Godsmoot will be formally over by the time Roy is ready to leave, at which point the barrier might be removed automatically.

So, Roy is just going to ignore that Durkula has teleported out and will wait quietly in the meeting hall until the demigod vote is done? :smallconfused:

[137beth]

So, Roy is just going to ignore that Durkula has teleported out and will wait quietly in the meeting hall until the demigod vote is done? :smallconfused:

Well, at the time of my last post on this thread (which was before strip 1022 was posted), I had thought that Roy would still be allowed to kill the new HPoH. I was guessing that he would do so, rendering the tiebreaking moot, and ending the Godsmoot (and then the Order would still have to go stop HPoH from vampirizing the entire dwarven homelands and destroying the final gate to trigger the end of the world in spite of the vote).

Now that Roy is no longer formally a body guard, I think a more likely possibility is that the barrier only prevents those with a formal role in the Moot from leaving (which Roy doesn't have anymore). Either that, or he'll find some way to escape that I haven't thought of.

[Jay R]

There is no "simple solution" to the problem that's supposed to be the major plot in this book.

The author isn't out to prevent Rich's plots from developing. He really isn't.

[Ruck]

A simple solution to the vampire problem.

Step 1) Heal up Roy, no rule against that, (and he doesn't run out of 'swing sword' slots).

Step 2) Realize the vampire choose his successor completely at random, so she is NOT likely as strong as the vampire dwarf.

Step 3) Realize all the other vampires took off to brainwash the dwarf council.

Step 4) Destroyed current vampire high priest of Hel.

Step 5) No cleric, no vote for Hel, no tie, no tie breaker from the demi-gods.

Step 6) Hel is forced to have one of her minions return.

step 7) Roy takes a page out of the vampire's playbook and appoints V the new body guard, so he can zap through the shell of anti-life.

Step 8) Rinse and repeat.
I fail to see how eight steps makes this simple.

I fail to see why Roy would be allowed to perform steps 4 and 7.

Finally, I fail to see why this thread was needed, considering "kill the High Priest of Hel" is not a novel solution and indeed is the exact thing Roy has been trying to do for what is now months in real time.


My guess (based on nothing) is the 'barrier' is more a 'zone marker'. If you're inside the zone, you count as part of the Godsmoot. Leaving the zone disqualifies you. That's why Hpo Baldr didn't pass the barrier; he didn't want to negate his vote. People can enter the zone (Creed vamps, Hpo Demis), and we've seen no evidence it would physically block someone's exit.
I'm pretty sure that Rich has clarified it is magical and does keep them there.

[NerdyKris]

There is no "simple solution" to the problem that's supposed to be the major plot in this book.

The author isn't out to prevent Rich's plots from developing. He really isn't.

Uh, the author is Rich... :smallconfused:

[King of Nowhere]

roy explicitly considered that solution in the comic. the oother priest are bound by the rules to zap him if he attacks the vampire - yes, even the good ones will attack him - so he could get one full round attack before becoming dust. he says that maybe - MAYBE - he may be able to finish her in that round, but that would leave the oots without his leadership while xykon keeps messing with the gate. and we all know how useless the oots is without roy's leadership; there was a whole book devoted to it. so, roy is trying to stay alive because he has to stop hel and stop xykon afterwards. also, stoppping the plan to dominate the dwarf elders seems a better plan that tryiing to one-shot the vampire woman.

[JennTora]

Uh, the author is Rich... :smallconfused:

Which does not invalidate his statement at all. if anything, it could be considered rather strong supporting evidence.

[Jay R]

There is no "simple solution" to the problem that's supposed to be the major plot in this book.

The author isn't out to prevent Rich's plots from developing. He really isn't.Uh, the author is Rich... :smallconfused:

Yes, that's the point. People keep coming up with clever ways that the story could be written to prevent the plot from unfolding. It isn't going to be written that way.

This isn't a group of players trying to cleverly prevent the DM's plot from developing. It's a story.

It isn't going to be written to keep the author's plot from developing.

[NerdyKris]

oooh, I get it. :smallbiggrin:

[Jay R]

oooh, I get it. :smallbiggrin:

Cool! A little back and forth and we've finally really communicated.

It's so satisfying when the Internet works the way it's supposed to.

[Ronnocius]

Big flaw in your plan.......


The other clerics will kill Roy if he kills the High Priestess of Hel. As you said, the High Priestess is pretty weak, and there's no point in Roy dying to kill her when the Exarch or one of the other vampires can easily act as a stand-in.

[Gift Jeraff]

Has anyone pointed out that Roy can just kill the

[malloyd]

Highly unlikely. Could they? Yes. But why?

Because they know their god wants to change his vote but can't because of Loki's no backsies rule? It's pretty clear Hel expected at least one of the Yes votes to swing the other way if the gods knew she was voting. That god could presumably just order his representative to leave (or kill himself) and obtain the same outcome. Of course while that seems a workable solution for a tactical puzzle, it's a boring one for a story plot.

[factotum]

That god could presumably just order his representative to leave (or kill himself) and obtain the same outcome. Of course while that seems a workable solution for a tactical puzzle, it's a boring one for a story plot.

And you don't think the other Gods would not only (a) know that the rogue god did this, but would (b) consider it to be breaking the "no backsies" rule anyway? I think they'd have to be particularly blind to sophistry to let that one pass.

[Jay R]

Because they know their god wants to change his vote but can't because of Loki's no backsies rule? It's pretty clear Hel expected at least one of the Yes votes to swing the other way if the gods knew she was voting. That god could presumably just order his representative to leave (or kill himself) and obtain the same outcome. Of course while that seems a workable solution for a tactical puzzle, it's a boring one for a story plot.

Following the ViDB (vampire in Durkon's body) to prevent him from swaying all the dwarves appears to be the next part of the story. Nothing will happen at the moot to prevent the story.

[NerdyKris]

And you don't think the other Gods would not only (a) know that the rogue god did this, but would (b) consider it to be breaking the "no backsies" rule anyway? I think they'd have to be particularly blind to sophistry to let that one pass.

Roy apparently thinks it's a possibility, however small. That's the purpose of his instructions to Veldrina. At worst it might just result in a revote once all the gods have replaced any representatives.

[Cazero]

The other clerics will kill Roy if he kills the High Priestess of Hel. As you said, the High Priestess is pretty weak, and there's no point in Roy dying to kill her when the Exarch or one of the other vampires can easily act as a stand-in.
There aren't any other vampires in the room. They just used a single use long range teleport item to go elsewhere. They can't possibly come back in time for the required apointment, and that's assuming they used divination to guess when they have to do it.

The real flaw in the plan is the part where the OotS can't beat Xykon anymore and everyone die horribly.


Because they know their god wants to change his vote but can't because of Loki's no backsies rule? It's pretty clear Hel expected at least one of the Yes votes to swing the other way if the gods knew she was voting. That god could presumably just order his representative to leave (or kill himself) and obtain the same outcome. Of course while that seems a workable solution for a tactical puzzle, it's a boring one for a story plot.
Heimdall : But technically, it isn't a backsie because...
Fenrir : I don't care. You cheat, I cheat. Now I poke holes in the world myself so you all have to follow my vote.
*One Snarl later*
Southern Pantheon : Well, that went poorly. Didn't we establish rules and godsmoot to avoid exactly that?
Western Pantheon : Yes we did. But you weren't expect those barbaric northeners to stop infighting just for that, did you? Half their pantheon were proud warrior figures.
Southern Pantheon : Nevermind. Let's start on that world v3. How do you feel about monkey ninjas?

Yeah, forcing the issue with that kind of cheating will be great. Go Heimdal, kill your priest.

[Cavenskull]

A barrier that clearly doesn't block teleportation, because Durkula just got out that way. It just needs a priest to have prepared Word of Recall and they can leave just fine. I don't think they will, because of the aforementioned "I believe in my God and will do what it takes to preserve their vote" sort of thing.

Although...now I'm thinking along those lines, how is *Roy* going to get out? AFAIK there is no divine equivalent to teleportation (other than Word of Recall, which only works for one person to a specific location) and the only arcane caster anywhere around can't teleport either--so is he stuck inside the room for the duration?

The barrier clearly doesn't block teleportation for people who aren't involved in the vote. If Durkula hadn't stepped down as HPoH first, his teleport attempt would probably have failed. Any priest who wants to leave would first have to forfeit their god's vote by stepping down from their role as high priest, which I'm sure the various attendees aren't interested in doing. Bonus fact: Any priest who decides to step down from their role in order to leave ends up causing the vote to resolve opposite to the desire of that god's wishes. Not really a good thing for a priest to do, especially if their opinion is in line with that of their god's.