Check my logic on Wizard Prestige classes.

[Jay R]

I'm fairly new to 3.5, and I'm designing my first caster. So I'm reading a lot, trying to get a handle on it.

It seems to me that unless you want a Bonus Feat every five levels, there is no reason to keep taking levels in wizard, since everything else of value you can get from Prestige Classes.

So I'm building a gnome illusionist, who will become a Shadowcraft Mage after getting a 4th level shadow spell at level 7. Following the above logic, I intend for him to be a Master Specialist with levels 4-7, after he gets 2nd level spells at level 3.

Since he'll probably never reach wizard 5, and wizard levels 2 and 3 have no other value not included in caster Prestige Classes, is there any Prestige Class he can take for levels 2 and/or 3?

[Beheld]

You can take Master specialist itself at level 3 if you use some trick to get spells early (since you are going for shadowcraft anyway, Heighten + Earth can get you level 2 spells at level 1). But for the most part, no, because PrCs are mostly designed for a level 6 or higher entry, and have skill ranks to match.

[ryu]

I'm fairly new to 3.5, and I'm designing my first caster. So I'm reading a lot, trying to get a handle on it.

It seems to me that unless you want a Bonus Feat every five levels, there is no reason to keep taking levels in wizard, since everything else of value you can get from Prestige Classes.

So I'm building a gnome illusionist, who will become a Shadowcraft Mage after getting a 4th level shadow spell at level 7. Following the above logic, I intend for him to be a Master Specialist with levels 4-7, after he gets 2nd level spells at level 3.

Since he'll probably never reach wizard 5, and wizard levels 2 and 3 have no other value not included in caster Prestige Classes, is there any Prestige Class he can take for levels 2 and/or 3?

Your fifth level bonus feat is actually pretty valuable. You can trade it in for spontaneous divination which drastically improves versatility and allows you to more easily leverage your slots at the end of the day. It also fulfills spontaneous casting requirements for powerful things like versatile spellcaster which is a hilarious trick.

[Bad Wolf]

Also you get two free spells per wizard level.

[SirNMN]

Your fifth level bonus feat is actually pretty valuable. You can trade it in for spontaneous divination which drastically improves versatility and allows you to more easily leverage your slots at the end of the day. It also fulfills spontaneous casting requirements for powerful things like versatile spellcaster which is a hilarious trick.

also you are missing out on your familiar being able to use touch spells

[ryu]

also you are missing out on your familiar being able to use touch spells

If you're planning on prestiging just take the obtain familiar feat and ACF away your original one. The feat one scales with all your levels, and the ACF is almost certainly gonna do some real work in the early levels.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you're allowed flaws take precocious apprentice at level 1 and spell focus, You should be able to get into master specialist as early as Level 3.

[DrMotives]

Another idea you could try asking your DM about is gnome paragon. Gnomes had illusionist as their favored class in 3.0, so your DM ma allow you to replace the +bard casting with +illusionist casting in gnome paragon levels 2 & 3. You'd lose a caster level, but gain "illusion aptitude" which add your paragon level to you illusion school caster level, plus a great skill list, more skill points, better HP, Mirror Image as an SLA, and a +2 charisma adjustment.

[Beheld]

Also you get two free spells per wizard level.

You also get them from most Wizard PrCs, such as Master Specialist:

"At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in the wizard class."

You get spells known as if taking a level of Wizard. If spells added aren't spells known, then that statement is literally nonsense. Also, see FAQ, which says the same thing, or the actual wording (where Wizard spells per level are described in exactly the same words as Sorcerer spells from level).

[Segev]

There are a few wizard alternate features from UA that run off your class level, which might be a minor incentive to stick with it. But they're usually - not always, but usually - not worth it.

[Jay R]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm learning a lot. Please check my logic below and tell me what I'm missing.


You can take Master specialist itself at level 3 if you use some trick to get spells early (since you are going for shadowcraft anyway, Heighten + Earth can get you level 2 spells at level 1).

Doesn't that take three Feats? Earth Spell has both earth sense and heighten spell as prerequisites. I've looked at the earth sense, heighten spell, earth spell sequence, but with three feats to get the advantage, it comes on awfully late in the game.

I need spell focus (illusion), and I'm planning to take uncanny forethought. Still waiting for word from the DM to see if the illusion mastery variant qualifies as spell mastery to be a prerequisite for uncanny forethought.

Also, I'll be one feat down. For purely role-playing purposes, I'm taking ancestral relic at level 6.


But for the most part, no, because PrCs are mostly designed for a level 6 or higher entry, and have skill ranks to match.

I'm getting that impression.


Your fifth level bonus feat is actually pretty valuable. You can trade it in for spontaneous divination which drastically improves versatility and allows you to more easily leverage your slots at the end of the day. It also fulfills spontaneous casting requirements for powerful things like versatile spellcaster which is a hilarious trick.

Where do I find this?

Also, with Uncanny Forethought, Illusion Mastery, and a single open slot at each level, I can spontaneously cast *any* spell as a full round action.


also you are missing out on your familiar being able to use touch spells

Good point. Thank you.


If you're planning on prestiging just take the obtain familiar feat and ACF away your original one. The feat one scales with all your levels, and the ACF is almost certainly gonna do some real work in the early levels.

My DM is only allowing me to take one of the Illusionist ACFs, and I'm taking Illusion Mastery, so I can't ACF away the original one. Besides, that would leave me without a familiar for a long time, since there are many more important Feats.


If you're allowed flaws take precocious apprentice at level 1 and spell focus, You should be able to get into master specialist as early as Level 3.

My DM doesn't like flaws, since they are not usually going to limit the character as much as the extra feat would help (and I agree).. I've considered precocious apprentice for just that purpose, but I don't get that many feats.


Another idea you could try asking your DM about is gnome paragon. Gnomes had illusionist as their favored class in 3.0, so your DM ma allow you to replace the +bard casting with +illusionist casting in gnome paragon levels 2 & 3. You'd lose a caster level, but gain "illusion aptitude" which add your paragon level to you illusion school caster level, plus a great skill list, more skill points, better HP, Mirror Image as an SLA, and a +2 charisma adjustment.

I've read through it, and the extra skill points sound good, especially having the prerequisite skills for Shadowcraft Mage be class skills. But adding the paragon level for illusion schools isn't a benefit; it's just saying that the loss for taking the paragon level doesn't apply to one class. And I don't expect the DM to change the rules for it, so I'm not likely to get wizard spells.

So the first level costs a level of wizard spells, and a caster level for all spells except illusions. In return, I get 2 extra skill points, Hide and Disguise as class skills, and an average of one extra hit point. That really counts as 10 extra skill points, since I need 4 ranks in each of Bluff and Hide, but it still seems like a net loss.

Even if the DM allowed wizard spells, levels 2 and 3 are loss of caster level for all non-illusion spells, in return for an added HP , 2 more skill points, and an SLA or +2 to a non-crucial stat. Is this worth it? What am I missing?

Also, is there any other useful prestige class I could dip into that has hide and bluff as class skills?

Again, thanks for all the information. I don't know this game well, and even when I'm not taking your advice for whatever reason, I'm learning a lot.

[StreamOfTheSky]

What you've noticed is correct, OP.

For most caster PrC's except ones that aren't much better than base classes or that require painful requirements to enter*, I insert a lack of CL progression at level 1 of the class (or move it up to 1st level if it exists later on) if it isn't there already. It's done a pretty amazing job of limiting the prestige-classing of casters in my game. It's mostly a solution for typical 10-level PrC's, though. Might be too onerous on a 5-level or the like.

*Any that are caster multiclass PrC's count for this as well by default, basically...If you had to lose CL advancement to get there, that's good enough for me

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm fairly new to 3.5, and I'm designing my first caster. So I'm reading a lot, trying to get a handle on it.

It seems to me that unless you want a Bonus Feat every five levels, there is no reason to keep taking levels in wizard, since everything else of value you can get from Prestige Classes.

So I'm building a gnome illusionist, who will become a Shadowcraft Mage after getting a 4th level shadow spell at level 7. Following the above logic, I intend for him to be a Master Specialist with levels 4-7, after he gets 2nd level spells at level 3.

Since he'll probably never reach wizard 5, and wizard levels 2 and 3 have no other value not included in caster Prestige Classes, is there any Prestige Class he can take for levels 2 and/or 3?

If you're not married to gnome, a changeling with racial emulation can take gnome substitution levels as well as their own 1st level substituion level (which gives them a double school mastery with transmutation!) Which then makes master specialist and unearthed arcana ACFs a lot more fun.

[Jay R]

On the discussion of gnome paragon, if I were willing for him to lose one level of casting, he'd probably start as a rogue, for many more skill points, and the 4 ranks in hide and bluff paid for as class skills.

Is there any other useful class to dip into that has hide and bluff? I note that if he took a single level of Cleric, with Garl as his deity, he could take the trickery domain. Then hide, bluff and disguise would be class skills, and those are prerequisites for Shadowcraft Mage and Shadowcrafter.

For that matter, is there a way to get access to the Trickery domain without losing a caster level?


If you're not married to gnome, a changeling with racial emulation can take gnome substitution levels as well as their own 1st level substituion level (which gives them a double school mastery with transmutation!) Which then makes master specialist and unearthed arcana ACFs a lot more fun.

Nice idea, but the gnome background, and the ancestral relic (a hooked hammer that acts like a staff), are pretty well established by now.

[Extra Anchovies]

For that matter, is there a way to get access to the Trickery domain without losing a caster level?

Arcane Disciple (a feat from Complete Divine) can get you limited access to any domain's spells, but AFAIK there is no way to get a domain granted power without taking a Cleric dip.

[DrMotives]

There is a wizard ACF from Complete Champion that swaps out a level 5x bonus feat for a granted power of a domain of your choice (no access to the spells), but then this whole thread is about avoiding levels of wizard, so not very helpful.

[Chronos]

You can get a domain granted ability from the Planar Touchstone feat, attuned to the Catalogues of Enlightenment.

[Troacctid]

Is there any other useful class to dip into that has hide and bluff? I note that if he took a single level of Cleric, with Garl as his deity, he could take the trickery domain. Then hide, bluff and disguise would be class skills, and those are prerequisites for Shadowcraft Mage and Shadowcrafter.

Illusionists can get Hide as a class skill if they want it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) Combine with Changeling Wizard substitution levels to get Bluff, Disguise, and Sleight of Hand.

[Extra Anchovies]

There is a wizard ACF from Complete Champion that swaps out a level 5x bonus feat for a granted power of a domain of your choice (no access to the spells), but then this whole thread is about avoiding levels of wizard, so not very helpful.

Actually, that is pretty notable - PrCs are generally built for entry after 5th or 6th level, so it's likely that a wizard will end up with 5 levels in the base class unless they go Master Specialist.

Also, geez, really? They pick one class to give domain-power access to... And it's the wizard?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Actually, that is pretty notable - PrCs are generally built for entry after 5th or 6th level, so it's likely that a wizard will end up with 5 levels in the base class unless they go Master Specialist.

Also, geez, really? They pick one class to give domain-power access to... And it's the wizard?

Sorcerers get domain access too (spells & powers) for the cost of a 2nd level spell known, though they have to give up a spell known each new spell level for the domain spell.

And as Chronos said, everyone can get any domain power with a feat.

[Extra Anchovies]

And as Chronos said, everyone can get any domain power with a feat.

Everyone who has 8 ranks in Knowledge (Planes), and who can get to a specific location on Mechanus, and who can get a result of between 20 and 39 (average 30) in any of four Knowledge skills. That's not exactly "everyone" - and the wizard ACF doesn't have any requirements beyond class and level, which is about as easy as an ACF's prerequisites can be.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Everyone who has 8 ranks in Knowledge (Planes), and who can get to a specific location on Mechanus, and who can get a result of between 20 and 39 (average 30) in any of four Knowledge skills. That's not exactly "everyone" - and the wizard ACF doesn't have any requirements beyond class and level, which is about as easy as an ACF's prerequisites can be.

It's good to be the king!

[Troacctid]

and who can get to a specific location on Mechanus, and who can get a result of between 20 and 39 (average 30) in any of four Knowledge skills.

No, no, that's for the higher-order ability. For the base ability, you only need a focus item from the Catalogues of Enlightenment--you don't actually need to visit.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Everyone who has 8 ranks in Knowledge (Planes), and who can get to a specific location on Mechanus, and who can get a result of between 20 and 39 (average 30) in any of four Knowledge skills. That's not exactly "everyone" - and the wizard ACF doesn't have any requirements beyond class and level, which is about as easy as an ACF's prerequisites can be.

So some builds have it a little easier than others. What else is new?
Getting 8 ranks in a knowledge is pretty doable for anyone unless your build is really skill point starved, and hitting a single DC 30 skill check is pretty easy with access to magic (either bought or supplied by a party member).

And the wizard ACF may not have any requirements, but it does require you to give up a bonus feat or, more likely, the opportunity cost of taking a different ACF at level 5 (like Spontaneous Divination).
I'd rather take that and Planar Touchstone on a wizard build unless i'm really feat starved, and it's not like wizards have all that many "must have" feats.

[Maxrim]

You asked about a 1 level dip that'd give bluff and hide. On the theme of rogue and illusionist, beguiler would give nearly as many skill points, the proper skills, and would allow you to start with illusory casting, and you'd always have low level spontaneous illusions. Later on, it'd keep the Int-SAD Ultimate Magus path open.

[danddbard]

you might want to take some more levels in there to boost your spellcasting level.

[Jay R]

You can get a domain granted ability from the Planar Touchstone feat, attuned to the Catalogues of Enlightenment.

But not early in the build, which was the point.


Illusionists can get Hide as a class skill if they want it. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionistVariants) Combine with Changeling Wizard substitution levels to get Bluff, Disguise, and Sleight of Hand.

My DM will only allow one of the three illusionist variants. I'm going with illusion mastery. The character is definitely a gnome.

----------

I've about decided that I can't afford to skip the bonus feat at wizard 5. I need spell focus for shadowcraft mage, and want to play uncanny forethought, which requires spell mastery. I was hoping that the illusion mastery variant would qualify, but the DM says no. To get all of those plus the ancestral relic before level nine, I need the bonus feat at level five.

Thanks for all the help. My major remaining question is whether to take a level of bard at the start, for the extra skill points. The loss of a wizard level will hurt forever, but he really is skill point starved, given the need for 16 skill points to buy up hide and bluff to 4 ranks each,

[sleepyphoenixx]

I've about decided that I can't afford to skip the bonus feat at wizard 5. I need spell focus for shadowcraft mage, and want to play uncanny forethought, which requires spell mastery. I was hoping that the illusion mastery variant would qualify, but the DM says no. To get all of those plus the ancestral relic before level nine, I need the bonus feat at level five.

Do you really need Uncanny Forethought before level 9? Shadowcraft Mage already has a ton of versatility just from the class features, and the rest can usually be dealt with by leaving a slot or two free and taking 15 minutes to prepare the more situational spells that aren't time critical.
Especially with the Gnome Illusionist sub level letting you cast Silent Image from cantrip slots.

[Jay R]

Do you really need Uncanny Forethought before level 9?

I'm not sure. That's why I started this thread. I've never played a 3.5 caster before.


Shadowcraft Mage already has a ton of versatility just from the class features, and the rest can usually be dealt with by leaving a slot or two free and taking 15 minutes to prepare the more situational spells that aren't time critical.
Especially with the Gnome Illusionist sub level letting you cast Silent Image from cantrip slots.

I'm primarily concerned with the next few levels, before Shadowcraft Mage. Yes, Silent Image is great as a cantrip. But with uncanny forethought, I can use all slots, not committing, for instance, to Alter Image until I know if I need to swim, or burrow, or fly, or have natural armor.

Do I "need" it? I don't know. But if I skip it until level 9, I have no metamagic until level 12. It makes me nervous, when I'm sitting at level 3.

[ryu]

I'm not sure. That's why I started this thread. I've never played a 3.5 caster before.



I'm primarily concerned with the next few levels, before Shadowcraft Mage. Yes, Silent Image is great as a cantrip. But with uncanny forethought, I can use all slots, not committing, for instance, to Alter Image until I know if I need to swim, or burrow, or fly, or have natural armor.

Do I "need" it? I don't know. But if I skip it until level 9, I have no metamagic until level 12. It makes me nervous, when I'm sitting at level 3.

As I see it metamagic at low level is best left to rods. Cheap, reusable, and versatile magic items that they are. High level metamagic focused builds are at their strongest finding prestige classes that focus on doing metamagic well. The most hilarious and obvious example of this is Incantatrix, but there are others.

For low level the easiest way to wizard effectively is to build excessive amounts of battlefield control, ally buffing, and utility. This is not to say that you can't fill other roles. You are a wizard after all. It's just that the path just mentioned is the simplest to do assuming you're willing to think about which situation each spell is best in, that your individual spells are versatile enough to fit in many situations, and that you're willing and able to talk combat tactics with your teammates.

Now I know that sounds like a lot of stipulations for simplest, but it's all in service of one simple goal. This is a game where the DM will throw your party a continuous string of problems. The goal is to be ready for the widest number of problems possible.