do metamagic feats work with reserve feats

[van luke]

If I have fire spell with a metamagic feat on it for a wizard does the reserve feat Fiery Burst get the metamagic effect also? ...I hope so

[ryu]

If I have fire spell with a metamagic feat on it for a wizard does the reserve feat Fiery Burst get the metamagic effect also? ...I hope so

Not that I know of? Metamagic feats are about adding new options to spell prep. Namely turning lower level spells into more useful effects at the cost of a higher spell slot. I don't know how a normal wizard would apply that to something that isn't even technically spellcasting, but more an SLA.

[Troacctid]

No. You would need a meta-supernatural feat, found in Tome of Magic.

[Zancloufer]

No you would not gain the +50% damage, or what ever other benefit the meta-magic applies. There is a feat for that, but like the Meta-SLA ones it has a pitiful amount of uses per day. Which makes no sense, should probably be CD based or something as in my experiences most Su abilities are at will.

Also for the sake of "Highest level spell prepared/available" for the reserve feat power, I don't think the modified spell level applies as meta-magic clearly states it doesn't boost the actual spell level. Except heighten spell.

Though that does bring up a new point, with spontaneous casters, reserve feats and heighten spell meta-magic. By RAW as long as they have ANY spell that applies to the reserve feat and heighten spell does than mean the Su ability can always be considered to be equal to the maxim level spell slot the caster has remaining?

[Cerefel]

Though that does bring up a new point, with spontaneous casters, reserve feats and heighten spell meta-magic. By RAW as long as they have ANY spell that applies to the reserve feat and heighten spell does than mean the Su ability can always be considered to be equal to the maxim level spell slot the caster has remaining?

Essentially, yes. A heightened spell is considered a spell of whatever level to which it's heightened.

[Necroticplague]

If I have fire spell with a metamagic feat on it for a wizard does the reserve feat Fiery Burst get the metamagic effect also? ...I hope so
No, and I'm not even sure where you could possibly get the idea from. The only thing a spell gives a reserve feat is its level.

[Jack_Simth]

No you would not gain the +50% damage, or what ever other benefit the meta-magic applies. There is a feat for that, but like the Meta-SLA ones it has a pitiful amount of uses per day. Which makes no sense, should probably be CD based or something as in my experiences most Su abilities are at will.

Also for the sake of "Highest level spell prepared/available" for the reserve feat power, I don't think the modified spell level applies as meta-magic clearly states it doesn't boost the actual spell level. Except heighten spell.

Though that does bring up a new point, with spontaneous casters, reserve feats and heighten spell meta-magic. By RAW as long as they have ANY spell that applies to the reserve feat and heighten spell does than mean the Su ability can always be considered to be equal to the maxim level spell slot the caster has remaining?
By my reading? No, because they have to "know" a spell of the appropriate level. When you spontaneously heighten, it's just cast as a higher spell, you technically don't know it as a higher spell, and there's a specific clause about spells that take a descriptor when cast as not qualifying (So Summon Monster VIII, for instance, doesn't power Fiery Burst, even though it can be a [Fire] spell).

Mind you, that's silly, Reserve feats are going to be a waste of an action in battle anyway.

[Bakkan]

Though that does bring up a new point, with spontaneous casters, reserve feats and heighten spell meta-magic. By RAW as long as they have ANY spell that applies to the reserve feat and heighten spell does than mean the Su ability can always be considered to be equal to the maxim level spell slot the caster has remaining?

I believe that is correct, and that's how I run it. It's not overpowered in the slightest, since to really take advantage of the ruling would require investing a significant portion of your feats into Heighten Spell and reserve feats.

[Necroticplague]

Mind you, that's silly, Reserve feats are going to be a waste of an action in battle anyway.

The one that uses Polymorph spells to fuel it is pretty good to use in combat. Helps that it's only a swift action.

[Troacctid]

Though that does bring up a new point, with spontaneous casters, reserve feats and heighten spell meta-magic. By RAW as long as they have ANY spell that applies to the reserve feat and heighten spell does than mean the Su ability can always be considered to be equal to the maxim level spell slot the caster has remaining?

For a spontaneous caster, it uses the level of the spell as it appears on your list of spells known.

A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) must know an appropriate spell and must have at least one unused spell slot of that spell's level or higher.

It checks if you know an appropriate spell, then it checks if you have a spell slot of that spell's level or higher. It doesn't track any other special abilities that might modify the spell's level during casting, such as Heighten Spell or Improved Sigil (Krau).

On the other hand, for a prepared caster, it checks the level of the spell as you prepared it, so heightening works just fine.

[Zancloufer]

By my reading? No, because they have to "know" a spell of the appropriate level. When you spontaneously heighten, it's just cast as a higher spell, you technically don't know it as a higher spell, and there's a specific clause about spells that take a descriptor when cast as not qualifying (So Summon Monster VIII, for instance, doesn't power Fiery Burst, even though it can be a [Fire] spell).

Mind you, that's silly, Reserve feats are going to be a waste of an action in battle anyway.

They have to "Know" a spell and have a spell slot available that is equal or HIGHER than the spell in question. The power of the feat in question then has it effect based off the highest level spell available that has a matching descriptor. IE: Orb of Force is a 4th level spell, but with heighten a sorcerer technically can cast a spell with the force descriptor at level 5,6,9 etc as heighten can spontaneously make that orb of force a higher level spell. Mind you it only really works for spontaneous casters and they still have to have a high level spell slot uncast so . . .

[Jack_Simth]

The one that uses Polymorph spells to fuel it is pretty good to use in combat. Helps that it's only a swift action.
Yes, there's a small number of exceptions (Minor Shapeshift is one; Blade of Force is sometimes useful in a meaningful battle, and Born Aloft is occasionally worthwhile as well), but for the most part, they're really only useful out of battle (want to open a wall? Acidic Splatter!) or vs. minor mooks (but even then, you're probably better off just keeping a few area effect spells in low-level slots). If your DM loves slow meatgrinders, then more of them become worthwhile, but for the most part? Meh.
They have to "Know" a spell and have a spell slot available that is equal or HIGHER than the spell in question. The power of the feat in question then has it effect based off the highest level spell available that has a matching descriptor. IE: Orb of Force is a 4th level spell, but with heighten a sorcerer technically can cast a spell with the force descriptor at level 5,6,9 etc as heighten can spontaneously make that orb of force a higher level spell. Mind you it only really works for spontaneous casters and they still have to have a high level spell slot uncast so . . .He can cast it, sure. That's not the requirement for spontaneous casters if you read the Reserve Feat Header, though. Don't get me wrong: it's silly that it technically doesn't count, but that's my reading of it.
On the other hand, for a prepared caster, it checks the level of the spell as you prepared it, so heightening works just fine.Yes, but then you are, in fact, not using the higher level spell slot. Of course, then you also have the interesting question of what happens for a character that fits both categories (such as a Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation, or a Wizard with Spontaneous Divination).

[Zancloufer]

That's not the requirement for spontaneous casters if you read the Reserve Feat Header, though. Don't get me wrong: it's silly that it technically doesn't count, but that's my reading of it.

I'm not arguing by RAW if you can use Heighten Spell to qualify for the feat as a spontaneous caster, I am saying you can use heighten spell to increase the power of a reserve feat.

IE: Level 12 sorcerer has Fiery Burst and heighten spell feats + some other stuff. Highest level spell that is [Fire] is the level 3 fireball. However as long as they have a 6th level spell uncast the highest level [Fire] spell they can cast is actually 6th level, therefore it does 6d6 instead of 3d6 damage.

[Troacctid]

Of course, then you also have the interesting question of what happens for a character that fits both categories (such as a Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation, or a Wizard with Spontaneous Divination).
Fitting both categories is a logical impossibility. Either you need to prepare spells, or you don't need to prepare spells. You can't have both be true at the same time. Your Wizard still needs to prepare spells in order to cast any, so she falls in the first category. Your Sorcerer can prepare spells if she wants to, but still doesn't need to if she doesn't want to, so she falls in the second category.


I'm not arguing by RAW if you can use Heighten Spell to qualify for the feat as a spontaneous caster, I am saying you can use heighten spell to increase the power of a reserve feat.

IE: Level 12 sorcerer has Fiery Burst and heighten spell feats + some other stuff. Highest level spell that is [Fire] is the level 3 fireball. However as long as they have a 6th level spell uncast the highest level [Fire] spell they can cast is actually 6th level, therefore it does 6d6 instead of 3d6 damage.
That's not how it works. Read the text more closely: it looks at your spells known, not the spells you could theoretically cast right now. If you don't have an actual spell of that level on your spells known list, the reserve feat won't count it.

[Jack_Simth]

Fitting both categories is a logical impossibility. Either you need to prepare spells, or you don't need to prepare spells. You can't have both be true at the same time. Your Wizard still needs to prepare spells in order to cast any, so she falls in the first category. Your Sorcerer can prepare spells if she wants to, but still doesn't need to if she doesn't want to, so she falls in the second category.Even without unusual feats and ACF's, you've still got things like multiclassing. Consider a Sorcerer/Cleric/Mystic Theurge, or a Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus. Plus, of course, Complete Mage doesn't actually use the word "need" in the reserve feat header for prepared casters. It's just "A spellcaster who prepares spells each day" and "A spellcaster who does not need to prepare spells". Between leaving slots unused, Uncanny Forethought, Spontaneous Divination, Alacritous Cogitation, Signature Spell, and sneaking in the qualifications for Versatile Spellcaster by one of a couple of methods, it's entirely possible to have a Wizard who can act effectively without ever actually preparing spells. Likewise, if you poke around enough, it's possible to get a spellbook on your Sorcerer and prepare any Sorcerer spell of which you can get a copy... but if you do have Arcane Preparation on your Sorcerer, you may very well prepare spells every day, such as, oh, a Quickened Silent Dimension Door as a get out of trouble fast card. So if you prepare spells every day, but do not need to do so, you do indeed fit both categories as laid out in Complete Mage.