(PF) Permanent/Semi-Permanent Minionmancy without Necromancy

[Coidzor]

So a friend of mine who is new to Pathfinder asked me for help making a support character who uses a handful of minions to fight with.

I usually play in groups where focusing on minionmancy isn't a viable option and things like necromancy are frowned upon to the point of being a de facto ban if not a de jure one.

So I wasn't quite sure where to point them at first beyond the standard "have you looked at summoner?" and "How do you feel about alignment extreme clerics?"

Discussing it further, they seemed more interested in having some minions up going into a fight.

I naturally brought up necromancy, since just having Animate Dead means one can have 1 or 2 bloody skeletons which are OK and won't need much ongoing maintenance and will hold out for a bit before something can be summoned, but no dice, she hates undead as a concept and that's probably not fly with her group, either.

I know that Summoner's summon monster SLAs are nice and lengthy, but still more for when you expect a fight due to the minute per level duration. I know Master Summoners can have their half-strength Eidolon out while they summon, so if that's not too weak, that'd be the quickest and dirtiest suggestion, since a Sacred Summons cleric with a pair of bloody skeleton or fast zombie bodyguards is out.

I checked around and didn't see any guides on construct crafting on PF, so I'm a bit curious what happened there. Is it just too expensive or did they make it too ambiguous or GM dependent as to whether PCs could make the worthwhile constructs? Or did I just miss them somehow?

Are there any other options other than nabbing a Mauler familiar(or goat, or...) or Animal Companion (or two)?

[Albions_Angel]

I have been working on a similar concept. The BEST way I can find to do it is to build your minions. Be an artificer, make constructs. The constructs only stop if they die.

EDIT: oops, missed that it was pathfinder. Sorry.

[SaintNick]

If psionics is available then you could try using Astral Constructs. Advanced Constructs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/advanced-constructs-psionic) allows you to have hr/level duration constructs. They aren't as versatile as the summon list, but they can be used to great effect.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can get decent value out of a Pack Lord Druid with 2 companions with the Boon Companion feat, as long as the campaign doesn't go over level 10 or so.
More than 2 minions on the field gets clunky pretty fast anyway, so it's a good number to aim for.
The ability to cast Carry Companion and shove them into your bag when they get in the way is pretty useful too.

Wild Empathy also works to get decent minions, especially if you take Greater Wild Empathy and boost your checks a little. It makes a good addition if you go for only a single companion (or want to take the Animal domain for more spells while still getting a companion).

A druid also does pretty well as a support caster (if you build it that way) while still being decently tough and versatile, and it's probably as far from the concept of undead as you'll get while still having decent minions. That makes it a pretty good pick for a beginner imo.

[Coidzor]

I have been working on a similar concept. The BEST way I can find to do it is to build your minions. Be an artificer, make constructs. The constructs only stop if they die.

EDIT: oops, missed that it was pathfinder. Sorry.

Yeah, sorry about that, didn't want redundant tags, but my computer died before I could get on and apply the forum filter tag.


You can get decent value out of a Pack Lord Druid with 2 companions with the Boon Companion feat, as long as the campaign doesn't go over level 10 or so.
More than 2 minions on the field gets clunky pretty fast anyway, so it's a good number to aim for.
The ability to cast Carry Companion and shove them into your bag when they get in the way is pretty useful too.

Wild Empathy also works to get decent minions, especially if you take Greater Wild Empathy and boost your checks a little. It makes a good addition if you go for only a single companion (or want to take the Animal domain for more spells while still getting a companion).

A druid also does pretty well as a support caster (if you build it that way) while still being decently tough and versatile, and it's probably as far from the concept of undead as you'll get while still having decent minions. That makes it a pretty good pick for a beginner imo.

Ah, I didn't realize Pack Lord was compatible with boon companion like that. I'll see how they like that idea, then. They start at level 5 and go an unknown number of levels, though.


If psionics is available then you could try using Astral Constructs. Advanced Constructs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/advanced-constructs-psionic) allows you to have hr/level duration constructs. They aren't as versatile as the summon list, but they can be used to great effect.

Ahh, I'll double check that then, thank you. :smallsmile:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ah, I didn't realize Pack Lord was compatible with boon companion like that. I'll see how they like that idea, then. They start at level 5 and go an unknown number of levels, though.

It's a matter of interpretation.
On one hand you have your full druid level in animal companions, just split up over two creatures, so it shouldn't do anything.
On the other hand it applies to a single companion, and increases your effective level for that companions progression up to your druid level if it's lower, which it is.

I've allowed it as a DM and i've played one myself and it didn't break anything, so i don't really see a reason not to allow it for someone who wants that playstyle.

Once you go higher than level 10 you can still focus all progression on one companion so he's got full power and use the other as a scout or in another non-combat role, so it's not completely wasted. But the player should be aware that the build hits its high point at level 8-9, after which you won't be able to keep up full progression on both animals.

[Korahir]

Hunter could be an alternative to druid, if you really want to focus on the animal companion(s). Got a lot of options there including the skirmisher hunter tricks, which are surprisingly good.
Personally I'd go a with the divine hunter archetype for the travel domain and the primal hunter domain for some evolution points, but packmaster with boon companion is also very viable.

[Malroth]

I would also like to reccomend the Planar Binding line of spells when supported by Geass and the nifty interaction between Dominate Person and Metamagic rods of Extend spell.

[Florian]

@Constructs:

That´s pretty much the main Schtick of the Arclord of Nex PrC. Reasonable fast and cheap crafting as well as having the option to teleport your constructs to your location. If you base it on an Arcanist, you can spent some exploits on metamagic feats along the way.
I would not recommend this for a newbie, though, as efficiency here is based on knowing your constructs well and that means knowing your bestiaries and monster section of APs well.

@Minions:

Surprisingly, Occult Adventures features two classes that handle multiple types of minions quite well and are fun to play, even if your system mastery is not all too advanced.

Occultist: Three Implements come with good and functional minion powers - Necromancy, Conjuration and Illusion. You can pick the feat Summon Guardian Ancestor for Conjurations servitor power to upgrade and personalize it a bit.

Medium/Nexian Channeler archetype: Channeling Nex, this class gains a broad summoning feature with some interesting twists. You could actually summon your party members if you want to.

Edit: For a newbie, I´d actually go with an Elf Occultist, no special archetype. Works, is fun to play, has options and the minions are easy to handle here, especially the Necromancy implement ones. These are not based on your regular undead but use a simplified Familiar template, making them scale with the class and simple to handle.

Edit 2: Quick and dirty sample Elf Occultist/Minionmancer build:
CN Elf Occultist 11, following Calistra.
Feats: Elven Battle Focus, Elven Battle Style, Elven Battle Training, Summon Guardian Ancestor (Psyche Serpent), Wasp Familiar, Weapon Finesse
Implements and Focus Powers: Abjuration (Aegis, Globe of Negation), Conjuration (Flesh Mend, Purge Corruption), Illusion (Shadow Beast), Necromancy (Necromantic Servant), Transmutation.
Permanent Minions: Wasp (modified Imp)
"Named" Minions: Psyche Serpent (Template modified)
"One-shot" Minions: Mix of up to 10 Bloody/Flaming Skeletons or Fast Zombies and some shadow conjuration critters.

If you want, you can delay the feat and overall progression and enter the "Evangelist" PrC for some added Oomph.

[Coidzor]

Hunter could be an alternative to druid, if you really want to focus on the animal companion(s). Got a lot of options there including the skirmisher hunter tricks, which are surprisingly good.
Personally I'd go a with the divine hunter archetype for the travel domain and the primal hunter domain for some evolution points, but packmaster with boon companion is also very viable.

Good point, my main concern in this particular instance with that is what to spend the hunter's actions on in combat, since they don't want to roll attack rolls regularly if at all.


@Constructs:

That´s pretty much the main Schtick of the Arclord of Nex PrC. Reasonable fast and cheap crafting as well as having the option to teleport your constructs to your location. If you base it on an Arcanist, you can spent some exploits on metamagic feats along the way.
I would not recommend this for a newbie, though, as efficiency here is based on knowing your constructs well and that means knowing your bestiaries and monster section of APs well.

Ahh, neat! Definitely sounds more complex than presenting a couple of options initially and then letting them explore more on their own, though, that's true. Good to see there's some support, still.


@Minions:

Surprisingly, Occult Adventures features two classes that handle multiple types of minions quite well and are fun to play, even if your system mastery is not all too advanced.

Occultist: Three Implements come with good and functional minion powers - Necromancy, Conjuration and Illusion. You can pick the feat Summon Guardian Ancestor for Conjurations servitor power to upgrade and personalize it a bit.

Medium/Nexian Channeler archetype: Channeling Nex, this class gains a broad summoning feature with some interesting twists. You could actually summon your party members if you want to.

That's pretty cool, especially that kooky bit about summoning party members. Reminds me of an oddball idea my first group had of making a custom line of summon adventurer spells.

Is summon guardian ancestor part of the content exclusive to the book? I was trying to follow up on that and got a 3rd level dwarf cleric spell.

Thank you for the sample build it looks pretty nifty, unfortunately the particular situation is one where they really don't want undead for some reason.

[Florian]

@Coidzor:

Sorry, my bad, it´s Summon Guardian Spirit and can be found in the Monster Summoners Handbook. For some reason, I always mistype that feats name.

This feat is interesting because it has a template attached to it. You pick one creature from the Improved Familiar list (Quasit, Imp, Harbinger Archon, Psyche Serpent...) and keep adding options to it, making it "grow" with you.

Both "Nex" options have a slight overlap. The Nexian Channeler has access to a private Demiplane and can use summons to create copies of creatures that are stored in that Demiplane.
If you create a construct, bind an outsider or capture interesting enemies, you "store" them in your Demiplane and use them as your summoning stock. You actually want to keep simulacra or clones of your party members there for exactly that reason and you can pretty much break the game by storing simulacra of great old ones like Cthulhu and Hastur :P

I did mention the Necromancy implement/Necromantic minions especially because it is not Raise Dead/Create Undead, not permanent, not "Evil" but rather a summons that doesn´t need corpses but calls out your ancestors for help in battle. Snap your fingers and they appear, should be fine in even the most ethically engaging campaign.

[Korahir]

Good point, my main concern in this particular instance with that is what to spend the hunter's actions on in combat, since they don't want to roll attack rolls regularly if at all.

Well the hunter has a decent spell progression (like a bard) and the druid (and ranger) list offers a lot of support spells. So between emergency healing, buffing, summoning and battlefield control, it shouldn't get boring. Divine hunter offers help adjusting the spell list via domain spells, but if attacking isn't even an option, then hunter is clearly not the right choice.

[unseenmage]

Animated Objects in PF is superior and not TOO hard to grasp.

There's a necromancy option that's similar in the Necrocraft, basically an animated object corpse complete with construction points and plug and play abilities.

Remember too the Construct Modifications in PF. Added HD, integrated weapons and armor, heck you can even add a brain. PF Constructs are nigh infinitely customizable. Just very expensive.

Oh, also PF allows for any construct to be built with prices based on CR too.

[Psyren]

I recommend Preservationist Alchemist, aka Pokemon Master. The summons don't last long but they're also only a standard action to bring out, and with Planar Preservationist she gets both the SM and SNA lists up to 9th-level for tons of options. Once she has the minion you needs on the field she can then chuck bombs or do other shenanigans with her extracts and alchemical toys.

Failing that, has she looked at Occult Adventures? Specifically Spiritualist as an easier-to-use Summoner.

[Coidzor]

@Coidzor:

Sorry, my bad, it´s Summon Guardian Spirit and can be found in the Monster Summoners Handbook. For some reason, I always mistype that feats name.

This feat is interesting because it has a template attached to it. You pick one creature from the Improved Familiar list (Quasit, Imp, Harbinger Archon, Psyche Serpent...) and keep adding options to it, making it "grow" with you.

Just looked over the template, which showed up for this Google search but not the other. :V Looks pretty nifty and a nice way to have a consistently scaling summon with flavor for days. =3


Both "Nex" options have a slight overlap. The Nexian Channeler has access to a private Demiplane and can use summons to create copies of creatures that are stored in that Demiplane.
If you create a construct, bind an outsider or capture interesting enemies, you "store" them in your Demiplane and use them as your summoning stock. You actually want to keep simulacra or clones of your party members there for exactly that reason and you can pretty much break the game by storing simulacra of great old ones like Cthulhu and Hastur :P

That's super neat, and seems like a bit of an oversight on simulacra legal targets. XD


I did mention the Necromancy implement/Necromantic minions especially because it is not Raise Dead/Create Undead, not permanent, not "Evil" but rather a summons that doesn´t need corpses but calls out your ancestors for help in battle. Snap your fingers and they appear, should be fine in even the most ethically engaging campaign.

Ahh, I gotcha now, thank you
I recommend Preservationist Alchemist, aka Pokemon Master. The summons don't last long but they're also only a standard action to bring out, and with Planar Preservationist she gets both the SM and SNA lists up to 9th-level for tons of options. Once she has the minion you needs on the field she can then chuck bombs or do other shenanigans with her extracts and alchemical toys.

Failing that, has she looked at Occult Adventures? Specifically Spiritualist as an easier-to-use Summoner.

Standard asction summons are always good, yeah. How are they at support shenaniganery?

I'll check that out, but she hasn't heard of the book until she saw it mentioned when I linked this thread.

[Florian]

Let´s not talk about Simulacrum regular targets here, as that is simply broken beyond believe.
All Great Old Ones are options as are Nascent Demon Lords (Moxix!) as well as real Demon Lords.
Pick a race that can "grow" (like the Neh-Thalggu) by killing and consuming and the fun ends. Quick and hard.

[Psyren]

Standard asction summons are always good, yeah. How are they at support shenaniganery?

Well - I mean, it's Summon Nature's Ally/Summon Monster, with all the utility that entails. In the words of Treantmonk, "every time an enemy hits a summon, you win" and all that. And that's before you get into all the utility the higher-level ones bring to the table like SLAs and movement modes.



I'll check that out, but she hasn't heard of the book until she saw it mentioned when I linked this thread.

I don't know much about it I'm afraid. Maybe there's a handbook out there?

[Coidzor]

Animated Objects in PF is superior and not TOO hard to grasp.

There's a necromancy option that's similar in the Necrocraft, basically an animated object corpse complete with construction points and plug and play abilities.

Remember too the Construct Modifications in PF. Added HD, integrated weapons and armor, heck you can even add a brain. PF Constructs are nigh infinitely customizable. Just very expensive.

Oh, also PF allows for any construct to be built with prices based on CR too.

The necrocraft does look interesting, though its creation rules confuse me a bit, since there doesn't seem to be a way to make or modify them to have more CP than alloted by their size, but there are rules for increasing their CR nonetheless and the price is just the HD, not (HD+CP)*multiplier like with the alt cost of crafting animated objects. Ruled out for this excursion, but I'll definitely keep it in mind for the future.

I'm gonna need to look more into these construct rules, but they seem rather scattered about just from my googling and checking the pfsrd and only construct guide I finally found for PF. Like, apparently giving constructs intelligence is possible without shovin a brain into them but I hadn't found out how before getting tired of poking around. :smallconfused:

Definitely seems like prime territory for someone to build upon and complete a guidebook for it as things stand, unless the one I found was just out of date & williamoaks got a more finished one out.

As it stands might point them towards an animated object or couple of Terra Cotta soldiers depending upon the expected wealth level.

I can't help but think of those crossbow homunculi from Eberron when I look at the ranged attack modification and tiny animates objects, though.

Well - I mean, it's Summon Nature's Ally/Summon Monster, with all the utility that entails. In the words of Treantmonk, "every time an enemy hits a summon, you win" and all that. And that's before you get into all the utility the higher-level ones bring to the table like SLAs and movement modes.

I don't know much about it I'm afraid. Maybe there's a handbook out there?

Mostly just doublechecking that such an alchemist has more to do than toss bombs after summoning saturation is reached, since it's hard for me to remember just what each kind of alchemist can do beyond the main thing of throwing bombs, being a better sneak attacker than the rogue, turning into a natural weapons fiend, or mutating themselves into a hulk. X.x;;

Summons eating damage meant for the party is very good, of course, and there's no denying their uses as trap springers and in combat. I should probably make sure she's aware of getting SLAs out of her summons, come to think of it.

Seems there is a spiritualist handbook, thankfully. :)

[Florian]

@Coidzor:

Forget about a "construct" handbook. That entire topic has become too weird and complicated once robots have become a subtype of constructs and the Craft Robot feat has been published. Do it, read the entry given in Divinity Drive and be as confused as everyone else. Stand in the line and the line is long.

To explain that: With the introduction of the "Clockwork" line of Constructs, you now actually have a working ecosystem of constructs that manage themselves, like "Clockwork Servants" caring for an repairing more combat-worthy constructs. With the robot construct subtype, INT score of 10+ are an actual issue now and Constructs can be "real NPC".
It starts to functionally break down when you accept that construction cost is based on CR and your "ecosystem" types of constructs range from CR 1/2 to CR 4.

(On a very personal note, I do not agree with the Spiritualist handbook as it is right now.)

[Psyren]

Mostly just doublechecking that such an alchemist has more to do than toss bombs after summoning saturation is reached, since it's hard for me to remember just what each kind of alchemist can do beyond the main thing of throwing bombs, being a better sneak attacker than the rogue, turning into a natural weapons fiend, or mutating themselves into a hulk. X.x;;

Their extracts tend to focus on defense and utility, since they are generally self-only. But that's okay, because the bombs provide the offense and control aspects, and in addition to being supernatural, the DCs scale much better. Add in Infusion and they can hand out buffs and healing to the party without even using their own actions to do so.

[Coidzor]

@Psyren: Ah,thank you.

Infusions might just be the ticket, then.
@Coidzor:

Forget about a "construct" handbook. That entire topic has become too weird and complicated once robots have become a subtype of constructs and the Craft Robot feat has been published. Do it, read the entry given in Divinity Drive and be as confused as everyone else. Stand in the line and the line is long.

To explain that: With the introduction of the "Clockwork" line of Constructs, you now actually have a working ecosystem of constructs that manage themselves, like "Clockwork Servants" caring for an repairing more combat-worthy constructs. With the robot construct subtype, INT score of 10+ are an actual issue now and Constructs can be "real NPC".
It starts to functionally break down when you accept that construction cost is based on CR and your "ecosystem" types of constructs range from CR 1/2 to CR 4.

(On a very personal note, I do not agree with the Spiritualist handbook as it is right now.)

Oh dear. I remember something about robots complicating things, but that sounds rather scary.

Do you disagree with its general objectives/conception of party roles for the spiritualist then, or the conclusions it draws about certain combos? In other words,macro or micro?

[unseenmage]

The necrocraft does look interesting, though its creation rules confuse me a bit, since there doesn't seem to be a way to make or modify them to have more CP than alloted by their size, but there are rules for increasing their CR nonetheless and the price is just the HD, not (HD+CP)*multiplier like with the alt cost of crafting animated objects. Ruled out for this excursion, but I'll definitely keep it in mind for the future.
No clue, I havn't had the pleasure of working with them myself. A friend pointed them out for abuse use with the Amalgam template and I filed them away under interesting-but-not-right-now.


I'm gonna need to look more into these construct rules, but they seem rather scattered about just from my googling and checking the pfsrd and only construct guide I finally found for PF. Like, apparently giving constructs intelligence is possible without shovin a brain into them but I hadn't found out how before getting tired of poking around. :smallconfused:
Any chance I could get a link to that? Have been looking for a means to do that myself because the brain thing gets shut off by a simple Detect Thoughts spell.


Definitely seems like prime territory for someone to build upon and complete a guidebook for it as things stand, unless the one I found was just out of date & williamoaks got a more finished one out.
Am working on it but I work slowly.


As it stands might point them towards an animated object or couple of Terra Cotta soldiers depending upon the expected wealth level.

I can't help but think of those crossbow homunculi from Eberron when I look at the ranged attack modification and tiny animates objects, though.

...
There is an Eberron PF (https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/) homebrew page if you're interested. If anything that their Artificer is overpowered is a homage to how overpowered the Artificer originally was for what its worth.

For my games we simplify things IMMENSELY by using the Price-by-CR bit under 'creating new constructs' on the Construct Modifications page. Simple CR*CR*500 for market price, divided in half for to craft, and 5% Market Price to make the body. Boom simple. (As a side effect we've also been selling scrapped clockwork and robot corpses since one spell will repair them for later re-construct-ification.)

In the whole PF rollout the only thing that bugs me as much as that Construct pricing wasn't codified bugs me is the mess that is traps, hazards, and poisons.

[Florian]

Oh dear. I remember something about robots complicating things, but that sounds rather scary.

Both ways are extremely feat and skill points intensive. Each type of construct has an associated Craft Skill attached to it which the skill ranks here being part of the requirements you need to meet before you can start the actual crafting process.
So if you don´t want to be stuck with a tight "family" of constructs, you must keep several different craft skills on a good level, something that is a bit of a waste in actual play. For example, both Clay and Ice Golems use Craft: Sculptures and Iron Golems use Craft: Armor or Craft: Weapons ... I mean, sculptures, really? Sheesh.



Do you disagree with its general objectives/conception of party roles for the spiritualist then, or the conclusions it draws about certain combos? In other words,macro or micro?

Micro leading to macro. The Spiritualist wants to be a "pet class" with a pet that could "tank". In a regular 4 man party, that rather means replacing the Fighter as the frontliner. The results here are more than disappointing but that is what the guide focuses on.
If you rather keep your Phantom in "internal mode", you´ll end up with something on the level of a Hyde-Alchemist and can replace the Rogue slots as a heavy hitter instead. That works admirably well, but I would not chose a "pet class" for this, though, somehow leads the existence of the pet ad absurdum.

[Coidzor]

No clue, I havn't had the pleasure of working with them myself. A friend pointed them out for abuse use with the Amalgam template and I filed them away under interesting-but-not-right-now.

That would be interesting, yeah.


Any chance I could get a link to that? Have been looking for a means to do that myself because the brain thing gets shut off by a simple Detect Thoughts spell.

No link, sorry, just saw it mentioned in the William Oaks or williamoaks guide. I'm sufficiently discouraged from constructs again, I think.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_E5ym1-3f-uaWpVdFlqNEp6S28/edit?pli=1
Am working on it but I work slowly.


There is an Eberron PF (https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/) homebrew page if you're interested. If anything that their Artificer is overpowered is a homage to how overpowered the Artificer originally was for what its worth.

Ahh, neat. :) I'll take a look at that, thank you.


For my games we simplify things IMMENSELY by using the Price-by-CR bit under 'creating new constructs' on the Construct Modifications page. Simple CR*CR*500 for market price, divided in half for to craft, and 5% Market Price to make the body. Boom simple. (As a side effect we've also been selling scrapped clockwork and robot corpses since one spell will repair them for later re-construct-ification.)

In the whole PF rollout the only thing that bugs me as much as that Construct pricing wasn't codified bugs me is the mess that is traps, hazards, and poisons.

Sounds like a convenient little rule streamline, that.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused and distressed by them, then. Granted, 3.5's poisons are a mess unless you use a third party handbook. So I can't remember clearly enough if it's just a lack of polishing what they started with or working it further.

[unseenmage]

...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused and distressed by them, then. Granted, 3.5's poisons are a mess unless you use a third party handbook. So I can't remember clearly enough if it's just a lack of polishing what they started with or working it further.

3.5 was just as bad. Worse for the glut of material even.

What bugs me is the copy-paste-and-ignore-it attitude poisons, traps, and constructs got when each desperately needed a rewrite.

[Florian]

3.5 was just as bad. Worse for the glut of material even.

What bugs me is the copy-paste-and-ignore-it attitude poisons, traps, and constructs got when each desperately needed a rewrite.

I actually think that such things are not possible unless and entirely new edition or at least a very major errata comes up. Think of it: Each and every "fix" is also a major change to the existing balance and that could lead to a chain reaction of changes.

Now... Let´s talk about a construct handbook, shall we?

[zergling.exe]

I actually think that such things are not possible unless and entirely new edition or at least a very major errata comes up. Think of it: Each and every "fix" is also a major change to the existing balance and that could lead to a chain reaction of changes.

Now... Let´s talk about a construct handbook, shall we?

I believe that was more "3.5 had terrible rules for poison, traps and constructs that needed complete rewrites to fix, but PF didn't provide those rewrites and just left them borked".

[unseenmage]

I believe that was more "3.5 had terrible rules for poison, traps and constructs that needed complete rewrites to fix, but PF didn't provide those rewrites and just left them borked".
Agreed.


I actually think that such things are not possible unless and entirely new edition or at least a very major errata comes up. Think of it: Each and every "fix" is also a major change to the existing balance and that could lead to a chain reaction of changes.
I consider them to be nearly identical problems to grappling, turning undead, tripping etc. In other words a similar fix to CMD/CMB could/should have been implemented rather than ignoring the problem wholecloth.

I started, but havn't near finished, a project wherein I use their price guide to give every trap a Market Price. For good measure I'm also pricing up Hazards as traps because, well, they are traps.
I have them all copy/pasted into my document and I have them all sorted by type. The actual pricing of them takes more time and, for me, backtracking/doublechecking.


Now... Let´s talk about a construct handbook, shall we?
As I mentioned. I have some little preliminary work done on it. Wish I'd gotten on board with PF from the get-go so I would be doing less catch up. So many sources, so little time.

I have a couple of spreadsheets (they need updated) that I use to compare HD, CR, etc for Constructs and Construct Templates.

BEWARE: The prices for permanently modifying a Construct's ability scores as per the Construct Modification guidelines are WAY TOO LOW! Like seriously way too low. With the prices where they're at it completely worth it for a party to pool their resources to buff one Golem and let it fight all of their battles for them.

[Florian]

I believe that was more "3.5 had terrible rules for poison, traps and constructs that needed complete rewrites to fix, but PF didn't provide those rewrites and just left them borked".

Going deeper into this topic might derail this threat a bit too much.

The core of the problems mentioned is comparing said stuff to other established rules elements and see what needs to change once you put a "fix" on one rules element. I can only imagine the sheer avalanche of further changes that would have entailed, but relatively little gain, and the designers did´t think it would have been worth it.

Think about it for a moment: Crafting constructs should be relative to Callings should be relative to Summons should be relative to Leadership. You see where all of this would lead.

[noob]

Personally I would never ever use clockwork constructs no matter what you tell me because there is the following unbalanced thing http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/clockwork-tohc/clockwork-brain-gear that ruin an entire kind of construct.
however it is written that any clockwork construct can be made as non clockwork construct or even as robots.(I forgot where it was)
If it is possible making non clockwork variants of those robots would work.

[zergling.exe]

Going deeper into this topic might derail this threat a bit too much.

The core of the problems mentioned is comparing said stuff to other established rules elements and see what needs to change once you put a "fix" on one rules element. I can only imagine the sheer avalanche of further changes that would have entailed, but relatively little gain, and the designers did´t think it would have been worth it.

Think about it for a moment: Crafting constructs should be relative to Callings should be relative to Summons should be relative to Leadership. You see where all of this would lead.

PF is at least "very major errata", so from what you said should have addressed the issue.

[Florian]

PF is at least "very major errata", so from what you said should have addressed the issue.

Nah, sorry, not possible. The whole d20 system family has some underlying flaws that simply can´t be fixed and have to be accepted. Fixing them alters those system to a point when they are not the same d20 system anymore and people will be dissatisfied even more. The lesser of two evil, so to speak.

[unseenmage]

Personally I would never ever use clockwork constructs no matter what you tell me because there is the following unbalanced thing http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/clockwork-tohc/clockwork-brain-gear that ruin an entire kind of construct.
however it is written that any clockwork construct can be made as non clockwork construct or even as robots.(I forgot where it was)
If it is possible making non clockwork variants of those robots would work.

That, IIRC, is third party content and as such probably shouldn't be used to dismiss an entire game element.

Though I too would never use Clockworks but because they're awful compared to non-clockworks for an even higher price tag.

[Florian]

Though I too would never use Clockworks but because they're awful compared to non-clockworks for an even higher price tag.

How deep shall we go into that topic?

Leaving Robots aside, I think that "Clockwork", "Metal" and "Mineral" are the only three broader groups worth focusing on because of the reduced fuss with skills and broadly comparable required spells.
There are some individual constructs with matching requirements, creating a certain synergy there, but that´s it then.

[Coidzor]

Personally I would never ever use clockwork constructs no matter what you tell me because there is the following unbalanced thing http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/clockwork-tohc/clockwork-brain-gear that ruin an entire kind of construct.
however it is written that any clockwork construct can be made as non clockwork construct or even as robots.(I forgot where it was)
If it is possible making non clockwork variants of those robots would work.

I'd expect a sane GM to just limit those to their family of "clockworks" rather than have them apply to unrelated clockwork constructs. If they used that third party content at all.


Think about it for a moment: Crafting constructs should be relative to Callings should be relative to Summons should be relative to Leadership. You see where all of this would lead.

Yeah, easier to calibrate those to start with and have new additions conform to standards than to retroactively rebalance everything, and it'd still have been hefty just starting from the core they inherited.

I ended up abandoning an attempt to make a couple non-necromantic analogs to animate dead and an attempt at a leadership variant due to the complexity of trying to balance them without being able to readily intuit the balance point instead of having to carefully look and re-read various texts.