Backup Character: Build Advice

[Chester]

3.5 ed. I'm considering a backup character in case my PC dies, or for a future campaign. I want to go Spellthief 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer X / something else later, not important now.

35 point buy, but I can figure stats out. I'm not looking to power game, but I do want to hold my own while playing something fun and rogue-ish.

I just wanted advice on the following:


Human or Gray Elf? I like the bonuses of the Gray Elf, but Able Learner is available only to humans. Plus a bonus feat doesn't hurt. (Flaws are an option.)
Starting Feat: Thinking of using Weapon Finesse for obvious reasons. If human, I'll add either Able Learner or something like Versatile Spellcaster. (Yes, Master Spellthief will happen at Level 6). If I go with flaws.....Spell Focus Illusion/Enchantment?
Recommended weapon....does Longsword work?
Anything else I might want to consider to keep the character alive / have some fun with it?


Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What level are you starting at? Do you intend to sneak attack with spells, or with a melee weapon? Weapon Finesse isn't all that obvious for your character - you're not exactly built for melee. If you want to be dex-based, get a nice reserve feat, or just blow cloud of knives and empowered scorching ray at your opponents. Then again, beguilers aren't known for their blasty options.

You're not getting a lot of use out of Spellthief - you get trapfinding twice, and beguiler has good skills already. I'd suggest going scout 1/caster 4/unseen seer X. 'Caster' can be lots of things, anything that gets divinations, really.

[Chester]

What level are you starting at?

If my current character dies in the next few sessions . . . 7.

[Troacctid]

You should not be fighting with weapons, and definitely not with melee weapons.

Personally, I like Dragonborn Gray Elf. Takes care of that annoying Con penalty and gives you a nice pair of wings.

[nedz]

What level are you starting at? Do you intend to sneak attack with spells, or with a melee weapon? Weapon Finesse isn't all that obvious for your character - you're not exactly built for melee. If you want to be dex-based, get a nice reserve feat, or just blow cloud of knives and empowered scorching ray at your opponents. Then again, beguilers aren't known for their blasty options.
You can't sneak attack with spells as a Beguiler.
I recommend dipping Warlock for this - just to get the ranged touch attack sneak attack option.
Now you can finagle your way around this with Arcane Disciple and a Reserve feat, but that comes online quite late and is quite an intricate build.


You're not getting a lot of use out of Spellthief - you get trapfinding twice, and beguiler has good skills already. I'd suggest going scout 1/caster 4/unseen seer X. 'Caster' can be lots of things, anything that gets divinations, really.
Spellthief is good, the issue is that you can only hold one spell level per level of Spellthief and Master Spellthief doesn't change this; in fact Master Spellthief doesn't do all that much for this build: +1 CL and the ability to steal high level spells — which you can't then use — so I'd probably look for some other feat.

Another good option is Changeling Rogue, with the racial ACF, since this lets you win at the face role.

Scout does work though.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can't sneak attack with spells as a Beguiler.
I recommend dipping Warlock for this - just to get the ranged touch attack sneak attack option.
Now you can finagle your way around this with Arcane Disciple and a Reserve feat, but that comes online quite late and is quite an intricate build.
Right, there isn't a single damaging spell on that list. I suppose you could add a level in Sand Shaper, but that's another CL lost, and doesn't get you the classic scorching ray or the orb spells.

I wouldn't dip warlock for a ranged attack - that would cost you the same caster level, but instead of a whole bunch of spells, you get one invocation and that 1d6 EB.

[Soranar]

Spellthief is ok at best in a different build, Combined with a beguiler it's mostly useless in this case.

Do not blow a feat on weapon finesse, at level 7 you can afford a feycraft weapon (which grants you weapon finesse)

If you must dip something for sneak attack, dip fighter with the following ACF

-sneak attack fighter
-Drow fighter

You get BAB +1, 1d6 SA, DEX to damage vs flat footed opponents, all martial weapons

Beguiler is a decent class but it's tricky for it to use unseen seer properly. Basically you'd have to go into melee which is not optimal for a caster chassis.

[Chester]

That's all unfortunate, since I really do like the flavor of Beguiler. I guess an option is to go Wizard and still take some of the Beguiler spells for that flavor.

What about Arcane Discpile? Any domains offer some low level blasting spells for sneak attack?

[nedz]

I wouldn't dip warlock for a ranged attack - that would cost you the same caster level, but instead of a whole bunch of spells, you get one invocation and that 1d6 EB.

There are no great options but I think this is the simplest.

You can use the Acidic Splatter (Acid level 2) or the Invisible Needle (Force level 3) Reserve feats keyed off Arcane Disciple but the feat cost is high.

Now Arcane Disciple is very good for Beguilers but you only get each spell once per day, so this is no good for spamming, and it's Wisdom based, meaning you are now MAD. It's still a very good feat. You also need Know(Religion) 4 which is CC for Beguilers so that means you can't take this before 6th unless you burn another feat, say Educated.

Even then the Acid options are very thin

Slime Domain Melf's Acid Arrow - level 2
Water Domain Acid Fog - level 7
Various domains Storm of Vengeance - level 9


Force is better, now whilst several domains have a smattering of force spells you really want the Force Domain.
So you have a Choice
Arcane Disciple[Force] at 6th followed by Invisible Needle at 9th - which is very late
or
Human Educated 1st, Arcane Disciple[Force] at 1st followed by Invisible Needle at 3rd - which is 3 feats.

Also you can only do this if your patron deity offers the Force domain - which limits your character options and also which further domains you can pick up with AD. In a quick search I could only find 3 deities.

Incidentaly, unless I missed something, none of the Sandshaper spells are suitable either.

[Chester]

Well, Beguiler sounded cool, but it just doesn't seem to work. Just plain Wizard seems better, as I can at least adjust accordingly and tailor the spells to suit my needs.

So, my options are limited to Changeling and Human if I'm going Wizard so I can have access to Able Learner:

Changeling:
Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen X
Spellthief 2 / Wizard 3 / Unseen X (to avoid xp penalty for multiclassing)

Human:
Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen X
Spellthief 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen X

I'm still unsure whether or not Master Spellthief works the same way as Practiced Spellcaster, or if it takes care of the caster level loss of Unseen Seer. Can anyone clarify?

[nedz]

Yes Wizard is more powerful, but even then you would be loading up most of your slots with Ray or Orb type spells - and rays which do damage are sub-optimal anyway. The rest of your slots would be mainly filled with utility stuff.

Maybe you should consider a straight Beguiler - though it does mean moving away from the concept of a character who does any damage whatsoever ?

Or just use a bow for damage ?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm still unsure whether or not Master Spellthief works the same way as Practiced Spellcaster, or if it takes care of the caster level loss of Unseen Seer. Can anyone clarify?
It doesn't work in the same way. Master Spellthief stacks your spellthief CL with your wizard (or sorcerer, beguiler) CL, totalling 1 + wizard + unseen seer - X for non-divination spells, and 1 + wiz + US + X for divination spells. Practiced Spellcaster simply adds +4 CL, up to a maximum of your character level. Master Spellthief doesn't compensate for the -3 CL from Unseen Seer, but Practiced Spellcaster can.

Personally, I would look into getting some spontaneous spells on a wizard base. Up front, the wizard provides INT-synergy with your large skill list (as rogue, scout, or unseen seer). With a spontaneous attack spell, you can prepare tons of niche spells in your wizard slots, and convert them to attack power as needed.

How do you get spontaneous spells? Well, there are some classes that grant some, and Spell Mastery + Signature Spell feat works for all characters. Uncanny Forethought works, but has restrictions (INT mod/day, must leave slots open, same Spell Mastery prerequisite as Signature Spell). Versatile Spellcaster with Spontaneous Divination works, but effectively makes you totally spontaneous, which may be a bit high-OP for your table.

You can do something crazy-fun like illumian rogue 1/cloistered cleric 1/wizard 1/mystic theurge 2/unseen seer X/dweomerkeeper 1/unseen seer +Y. That gets you a spontaneous spell at wizard casting 4 + X, so up to a third at X = 1, a fourth at X = 3 and so on. It's probably quite silly, but you get no XP penalty for multiclassing!

[sleepyphoenixx]

It sounds like you're not really interested in the Beguiler spell list. If the only reason you're taking it is the skill points you can generally get by with a high Int Wizard with Able Learner until you get into Unseen Seer at 6. I'd suggest Changeling Rogue for the first level, because the substitution level is awesome.

Either way you're a squishy almost-full caster, so going into melee is just stupid. No need for Weapon Finesse, just sneak attack with ranged touch spells, if you absolutely feel the need to do damage. Hunter's Eye is a popular spell for the Unseen Seers Advanced Learning for that.

You can certainly serve as a more than adequate god-wizard in combat, so there's really no reason not to leave the damage to the rest of the party while you use your spells for control, buffs and debuffs. More efficient and easier on your spell slots.

Summoning is also doable with a Specialized Conjurer and the Rapid Summons ACF (UA) - it doesn't take much investment otherwise since a lot of Summon Monster's value comes from the SLA's of the summons anyway, so there isn't too much point getting Augment Summoning.

One thing you should definitely get (if allowed) is Uncanny Forethought. You can be pretty decent at almost anything already just by being a wizard with the right spells, so your other feats are pretty much open depending on where you want to specialize.

[Chester]

It sounds like you're not really interested in the Beguiler spell list.

I am, it's just that the consensus seems to be that it sucks with unseen seer.

I like Beguiler. I like Unseen Seer. Spellthief is there to give me the sneak attack while also giving me another cool trick.

[nedz]

I am, it's just that the consensus seems to be that it sucks with unseen seer.

I like Beguiler. I like Unseen Seer. Spellthief is there to give me the sneak attack while also giving me another cool trick.

Hmm, we were just trying to get the magical-range-touch-sneak-attack-thing going - which is tricky.
If you are happy using a bow or, later, UMDing/Arcane Discipling a wand to do the sneak attack thing then it's probably fine.

Spellthief has issues with multi classing as well - mainly

at any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level. - which Master Spellthief doesn't help with.

[Chester]

Hmm, we were just trying to get the magical-range-touch-sneak-attack-thing going - which is tricky.
If you are happy using a bow or, later, UMDing/Arcane Discipling a wand to do the sneak attack thing then it's probably fine.

Spellthief has issues with multi classing as well - mainly
- which Master Spellthief doesn't help with.

Yeah, I mean, I'm OK with that... I was just under the impression that it wouldn't work.

I do see that a Changeling Rogue might work better for what I want to do with Beguiler; would I still need Able Learner with that route?

[Troacctid]

Assuming the only Rogue skills you care about are Hide, Search, and Spot (the ones required for Unseen Seer), Able Learner is worth 12 skill points, because you'll need +4 ranks of each of them. If there are other skills from Rogue that you want to take during your Wizard levels, such as Bluff or Move Silently, that number goes up accordingly.

[nedz]

I do see that a Changeling Rogue might work better for what I want to do with Beguiler; would I still need Able Learner with that route?

It depends upon which skills you want, but with the Beguiler option then probably not. With the Wizard: then it's mainly a skill point thing. Now you will have lots of skill points, either way, but then the character concept does sort of need them to function.

[Chester]

Well, then....

I've settled on Changeling Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10 / Recaster 5.

Yes, I know "Wizard is better than Beguiler," but I really like the flavor here.

I'm not against doing 5 levels of Unseen Seer, then 5 levels of Recaster, then returning to Unseen Seer.

Certainly, Practiced Spellcaster is on my feat radar.

I'm just tweaking ideas for first level feats and flaws that would work here.