Magic Stone + Extra Attack + Spell Sniper

[Arkhios]

Can you, or can you not, make your attack rolls due to Extra attack with spell attack modifiers?

Magic Stone cantrip (from Elemental Evil Player's Companion) lets you transmute pebbles into magical projectiles which you can either throw or fire with a sling, by making a ranged spell attack using your spellcasting ability modifier. The attack does not come as a part of the casting of the cantrip (which, btw, is a bonus action), and the one making the attacks doesn't have to be the caster themselves.

While the cantrip itself has a range of touch, how does Spell Sniper feat interact with those pebbles, when thrown? Does their range still double as per written, since they still, technically, benefit from the spell to be throwable. (Obviously, you can always throw pebbles as improvised weapons, but such items have no written range and always depend on DM's ruling, and frankly, I'd consider non-magical pebbles to be so small that they wouldn't do no damage at all.)
Same question could apply to Produce Flame, actually. Produce Flame allows you to make an attack with the flame, though the casting of the cantrip has a range of self. Does Spell Sniper apply to the range of Produce Flame, thrown?

Edit: Also, would you allow either one of the cantrips above to be gained through Spell Sniper feat? I realize that the attack roll is not part of the casting, but technically, it's due to these cantrips that you can make attack rolls with them.

[PoeticDwarf]

I'd rule range is still doubled, and I guess it works RAW that way but idk

[rlc]

OP has never been hit with a thrown rock, if he thinks they don't cause damage.
But yeah, I'd probably be fine with spell sniper for both of those cantrips.

[Arkhios]

OP has never been hit with a thrown rock, if he thinks they don't cause damage.
But yeah, I'd probably be fine with spell sniper for both of those cantrips.

I don't see a pebble is considered much bigger than a pea. A rock, the size of a palm, on the other hand... Or would you lose your will to fight on if you were shot by a pea? ;) It hurts, yes, but I wouldn't have a peashooter cause remarkable damage in terms of hit points. The pain is somewhat equal to a bonesnap, imho.

[HoarsHalberd]

I don't see a pebble is considered much bigger than a pea. A rock, the size of a palm, on the other hand... Or would you lose your will to fight on if you were shot by a pea? ;) It hurts, yes, but I wouldn't have a peashooter cause remarkable damage in terms of hit points. The pain is somewhat equal to a bonesnap, imho.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YxagLREJNFk/UfKlyXklA7I/AAAAAAAAB0c/UmmXWXm6eIM/s1600/Nikon+2+064.JPG these are pebbles. A pebble is not a pea sized rock. I have no idea where you got the definition of a pebble as being pea sized. It's simply a small rock, rubbed smooth. A smooth, round edged palm sized rock would be a pebble.

EDIT: Actually, palm sized rocks are cobbles. But a 2.5 inch diameter rock is a pebble. So easily big enough to put a dent in a guys skull when thrown well.

[Arkhios]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YxagLREJNFk/UfKlyXklA7I/AAAAAAAAB0c/UmmXWXm6eIM/s1600/Nikon+2+064.JPG these are pebbles. A pebble is not a pea sized rock. I have no idea where you got the definition of a pebble as being pea sized. It's simply a small rock, rubbed smooth. A smooth, round edged palm sized rock would be a pebble.

EDIT: Actually, palm sized rocks are cobbles. But a 2.5 inch diameter rock is a pebble. So easily big enough to put a dent in a guys skull when thrown well.

Alright, I stand corrected. I suppose something was lost in translation. (english is not my native language) I just figured that a pebble (while still smooth) is a small stone. Smaller than those.

[Nicodiemus]

I would tend to disagree. Spell sniper modifies spell range and since neither of the given examples has a range, they wouldn't be affected. However, the number of attacks you could make with the pebbles would be based on your attacks per round for the same reason.

And rock size is semantics, so I'm not gonna wade into that one.

[DeAnno]

"Fragments in gravel range in size from pebbles (4–64 mm [0.16–2.52 inches] in diameter)"

It's a little disingenuous to claim a pebble is 2.5 inches when its a scale with a factor of 16 and that's the high side. The geometric mean is about half an inch, which is more in line for the expectations the average person has of a "pebble". Since the spell can theoretically target any pebbles, it could indeed be used on tiny pea sized rocks.

[Arkhios]

"Fragments in gravel range in size from pebbles (4–64 mm [0.16–2.52 inches] in diameter)"

It's a little disingenuous to claim a pebble is 2.5 inches when its a scale with a factor of 16 and that's the high side. The geometric mean is about half an inch, which is more in line for the expectations the average person has of a "pebble". Since the spell can theoretically target any pebbles, it could indeed be used on tiny pea sized rocks.

A nice catch, thank you. Reassured myself that I wasn't completely mistaken upon the pebble size.

And, on the other hand, I agree the actual size is a matter of semantics.

I must admit that I hadn't realized that Spell Sniper indeed talks about the spell's range and not the overall effect's range. A very good point there, too. So, no Magic Stone or Produce Flame via Spell Sniper.

[Segev]

Honestly, eldrich blast is probably your best choice for the free cantrip to pick up with Spell Sniper. 240 ft. range with d10s for damage, just from the feat. If you can get 2 levels of Warlock as well, you can up that to 600 ft. range and d10+cha mod per bolt. (If you want to fully press eldrich blast, you can go sorcerer/warlock with Spell Sniper for Agonizing Blast, Eldrich Spear, and the Distant Spell metamagic; for 1 sorcery point, you can fire a high-damage eldrich blast up to 1200 feet. In D&D, that's pretty ridiculous range.)

[PoeticDwarf]

I would tend to disagree. Spell sniper modifies spell range and since neither of the given examples has a range, they wouldn't be affected. However, the number of attacks you could make with the pebbles would be based on your attacks per round for the same reason.

And rock size is semantics, so I'm not gonna wade into that one.
Smart, just read spellsniper once and was AWB so forgot about that one. You're right, although I would probably still be OK with it

[Arkhios]

Honestly, eldrich blast is probably your best choice for the free cantrip to pick up with Spell Sniper. 240 ft. range with d10s for damage, just from the feat. If you can get 2 levels of Warlock as well, you can up that to 600 ft. range and d10+cha mod per bolt. (If you want to fully press eldrich blast, you can go sorcerer/warlock with Spell Sniper for Agonizing Blast, Eldrich Spear, and the Distant Spell metamagic; for 1 sorcery point, you can fire a high-damage eldrich blast up to 1200 feet. In D&D, that's pretty ridiculous range.)

Not for someone with abysmally low charisma, but great wisdom. Even though you get multiple blasts from Eldritch Blast, you'd be "shooting your own feet" (a saying in Finland), by picking up Eldritch Blast when you're not charismatic. You still rely on your charisma to make those attacks with the cantrip. Note, that not everyone build their characters from ground up before they begin the game. Not everyone makes the cheasy choice of high charisma, dump all else, and go bard/paladin/sorcerer/warlock gish.

I can see a ranger, who got lucky with high wisdom, might want that feat and a cantrip, just because he can, not because it's (sub)optimal or something. You like to optimize? Fine. Do so, but don't force your optimization to others.

[MaxWilson]

The more interesting question: can a Sharpshooter with a sling use these pebbles with -5/+10? A close reading of the spell and the text of Sharpshooter seems to indicate that he can. It's a ranged spell attack, yes, but it's also an attack being made with a weapon he's proficient in (sling), which is what Sharpshooter requires.

[Arkhios]

The more interesting question: can a Sharpshooter with a sling use these pebbles with -5/+10? A close reading of the spell and the text of Sharpshooter seems to indicate that he can. It's a ranged spell attack, yes, but it's also an attack being made with a weapon he's proficient in (sling), which is what Sharpshooter requires.

Technically, the wording of Sharpshooter states that you must make an attack with a ranged weapon (which is a property a Sling has) and which you are proficient with, but otherwise you're correct. I'd say, that yes, you can use Sharpshooter with those pebbles when fired from a sling (but only then), even if you would be using the caster's spell attack modifiers for the attack.

[georgie_leech]

Given the flavor behind the feat, I always figured that the -5/+10 was to model making a difficult shot at a particularly vulnerable target, like the eyes or something, so personally I don't see any conflict between RAW and fluff in this case anyway.

[Arkhios]

Given the flavor behind the feat, I always figured that the -5/+10 was to model making a difficult shot at a particularly vulnerable target, like the eyes or something, so personally I don't see any conflict between RAW and fluff in this case anyway.

Yeah. I assume everyone is familiar with the story about David and the Goliath? :P

[Vogonjeltz]

While the cantrip itself has a range of touch, how does Spell Sniper feat interact with those pebbles, when thrown?

It doesn't, as you said yourself, the spell doesn't require you to make an attack roll.

Produce Flame actually can be cast directly requiring an attack roll, so it would see a range increase.

As stated, Magic Stone does not itself require an attack roll, Produce Flame does. So between the two, only Produce flame could be taken via the feat.