Illusionist Tricks

[Segev]

I've been looking over the Illusionist, as my not-infrequent posts on the subject may suggest, and I've decided to make a thread which compiles some of the neat things they can pull off, particularly with Malleable Illusions (their 6th level specialist power).

This one's not a BIG deal, since they could just re-cast the cantrip with new parameters, but it does allow them to avoid having to make any obvious spellcasting activities, lending a little more realism to it. This could allow them to have an illusion of a person have a full-fledged conversation, as long as the illusionist can get away with sitting quietly on the sidelines and just "listening." Actually, that doesn't work, because minor illusion is objects only. But still, if you need the object to change or do something, this is useful for when you don't want to obviously cast a spell again.

Minor image and silent image are both good low-level spells for this. They don't really even require you to be an Illusionist; you can create hiding places that you know aren't real from which to launch attacks which grant you advantage (for being unseen) without costing you disadvantage (since you can see through it). With Malleable Illusions, you can move them around and change what they are, as well.

Disguise self is not the most exciting spell on which to use Malleable Illusion, but it does come with the advantage of allowing you to change your disguise from round-to-round. This can be useful for infiltration without having to cast a new spell as you go from ignorable scullion to trusted servant to invited party-guest, and for losing yourself in a crowd as you go from being one person to another repeatedly as you round corners and interpose obstacles between you and any observant pursuers. Potentially fun with Illusory Reality, too, since you can make some object you've conjured up as part of your disguise "real," as long as you keep hold of it (and don't try to hurt anybody with it).

Seeming does what disguise self does, but with 8 hour duration and on your whole party (or even, if they fail a save, unwilling individuals). And you can, of course, still use Malleable Illusions on it! Your whole party are Mystique, all day long. And if you want to be yourselves, of course you can just make the illusory appearance be their natural one(s). Also, clothing for every occasion. Admittedly, Illusory Reality only lets you make one object out of all of those worn by all your targets real, but even that's still somewhat useful.


Illusory script lasts for days and doesn't allow a save. It doesn't really matter what your hidden message is; this is your forgery tool. You can literally have it show whatever you want just by thinking about the message or image you want to portray, and you can change it at will. One minute, it's an invitation to this ball made out to you in the host's own hand. The next, it's a badge showing that you're a deputized constable in Her Majesty's service, and then a bit later it's a warrant for the arrest of the villain whose identity you just discovered.

Combined with detect thoughts and a reasonable talent for persuasion, it even can be made into an on-the-fly piece of identifying documentation that is precisely what the guard or butler or whomever is expecting to see and will to whom he'll show the most respect.


The eponymous spell is gone from 5e, it seems, but magic mouth combined with Malleable Illusions can serve the purpose just as well, if not better. As long as you can see it, you can have it speak in your voice whatever message you like for whatever trigger you can think of. It hangs around until dispelled. It won't substitute conveniently for the message cantrip, but it doesn't need to. It can be used to put your voice all over the place. Put it on something portable, and you can even place it as you need to. Have unseen servants carry it around, even. Heck, since range/location is a parameter of the spell, you can use Malleable Illusions to transfer it to any surface in range when you change its message.


This doesn't happen until you can cast 6th level spells, because while major image is a 3rd level spell, it needs to be cast from a 6th level slot to get an indefinite, concentration-free duration. Once done, however, the Malleable Illusions feature lets you change them into anything you like, such as easily-"transported" images of small animals or the like that follow you around, to be transformed into anything that a major image can look like. Then changed back when not needed. You now can make hiding places, illusory monsters, face objects, and all sorts of things with just an action.

You can also stockpile them; cast any unused 6th level spell slot as a major image before your long rest. There's no clause in the spell about having only one at a time. For non-illusionists, this is useful for things like leaving permanent illusory walls or the like in place; for the illusionist, this becomes a small horde of potential tools to keep on hand.

edit: Stockpiling is not as useful as I originally thought; you can't "carry them" with you without spending an action moving each one individually. This makes moving them in any natural-seeming fashion nigh impossible and also takes a lot of time. If your DM is generous, maybe he'll let you issue "group commands," but that's not in the spell description. That said, stockpiles you leave "at home" are quite doable, if you can come back and pick them up. Or just leave them lying around; it's not like random spellcasters go around dispelling random moss formations on trees and buildings just because they happen to be illusory, and if you need them and are back this way, you can pick one up!

When you hit 14th level and get Illusory Reality, each major image is a one-off object you can solidify for a minute, as well! You can only make part of the illusion real once per casting, but it's still a healthy toolbox.

second edit (3-30-2016):It's also worth noting that leaving them lying around in places means you have them on-hand when you return to visit, and that you don't have to visit in person to make further use of them. The project image spell lets you see through an image you create up to 500 miles away; when you project it to a place with a major image left behind, you can use that major image without having to cast a new one. Since you can see it, Malleable Illusions is also usable, despite you not actually being there!

edit (4-18-2016): While a simulacrum has a sharply finite complement of spell slots, if you have one of yourself expend the 6+ level slots on major image, it will be able to move them around and adjust them for you, as it will also have Malleable Illusions.(This is the one that, when I had it pointed out to me by this board, sold me on playing an illusionist for my first 5e PC.)


While your major images can't follow you easily without you spending a LOT of mental time and energy shepherding them, you can turn them into tiny objects and stick them into a leomund's secret chest. Since the chest and its contents vanish and reappear at your command, and it reappears where you want it, you can store the major images in there and pull them out when you want them.

Not quite on-demand, as you have to summon the chest and get them out, but at least your stockpile can be maintained!


Creation is an illusion spell with a duration of at least 1 minute in 5e. Not a conjuration spell, as one might expect from experience with prior editions. As such, it is subject to the illusionist's Malleable Illusions ability! Its variable duration makes it a little weird, since if you use Malleable Illusion to change its material to something with a shorter duration, you run into questions of how that would be counted. Personally, I think the easiest and strictest reading of the RAW is that using Malleable Illusion causes the illusion spell to act as if it had always had the settings you just imposed, retro-actively, so if you go from (say) a cotton scarf (24 hour duration) that you've worn for 6 hours to an adamntine shield (1 minute duration), it immediately terminates the spell, since it's now well beyond the 1 minute from the time that you cast creation.

Nevertheless, with a 24-hour duration on plant matter, you can cast it to make a soft cotton pillow when you go to bed, and then have, for the next day, any tool, piece of clothing, furniture, or other aid you want that fits within a 5-ft. cube, as long as it's made of plant matter. There's a LOT you can do with wood, for example. Moreover, the object can't even stay destroyed, since it's an illusion that you can reshape. A 5x5x5 ft. cube of hardwood blocking a path that can be remade into a solid, undamaged block every round is a nearly-impassible barrier, and that's just one niche use.

If you happen to have a spell slot of higher level that you're not using before you take your long rest, you can increase the maximum size of the object enormously, as well. There's no minimum size, either, so make it into a tiny wooden coin or a lightweight scarf or hat or something for ease of carrying. Just make it big enough that you don't lose it!


This one's a little weird, and doesn't work until very high level, or requires you to be creative. Because simulacrum requires "pieces" (nail clippings, blood, something) from the creature it is to mimic, your valid parameters for what creature it is simulating are limited to what material components you have on-hand. Arguably, if you use components from multiple creatures, however, you can use Malleable Illusion to reshape it into any of those creatures with an action. What that does to its current hit points is probably an entire thread's worth of argument; I think the simplest option is to treat each creature it can become as a single entity, with its own hp, spell slots, and other resources. If the one it currently is runs out of hit points, the spell ends and can't be reshaped anymore.

However, that's still a lovely way to spend only 1500 gp on multiple potential simulacra. But it's a little shaky; some may argue that you can't include components from multiple creatures in the casting. That's where this becomes a "high-level-only" trick: if you cast simulacrum with a wish, it is a 100% safe wish to cast, and requires explicitly no material components. Since Malleable Illusions works by letting you reshape your illusion to anything it could have been at the time of casting, you now have total freedom to shapeshift your wished-for simulacrum into literally any creature of which you know!

Arguably, it even takes on full hp and resources of that creature, at least the first time it assumes that form, too. I could see a DM reasoning that it would "remember" its expenditures and hp damage from time to time it was in a given form.

edit (4-18-2016): Having read the spell a little more closely after discussions on this board, I have realized that the range of "touch" applies to the original creature being copied by the simulacrum. This makes it a bit trickier to use out of its 7th level slot, as the original has to be cooperative or restrained for 12 hours while you cast! It also puts a twist on the wish version of the spell: you have to both see the simulacrum and touch the new "original" to use Malleable Illusions to change what the simulacrum is of. You also need to touch an original donor if you are using more than one creature in the 7th level version of the spell, assuming that is even allowed by your DM.


Phantasmal Force is only visible - and only even partially real - to the target of the spell. Unless you've used it on yourself, you can't see it, so you can't use Malleable Illusion on it. It's probably not really worthwhile to have an illusion only you can see which you can reshape at will, either. However, Illusory Reality doesn't require you to see the illusion to make an object within it real. Suddenly, you can make a ladder which only one person can see into a solid object for 1 minute. (It's questionable whether anybody else can interact with it; is it an invisible but solid ladder, or a ladder that only the target of phantasmal force can even use?) This even gives it a valid reason to use on yourself. But even barring that, a phantasmal force of a cage in the midst of a raging inferno could have the cage actually be real, causing the poor victim to literally be trapped within and unable to get out even if he makes his save, because it's REALLY THERE for a minute.


This one is an odd one, since it actually doesn't, on the surface, seem to be too terribly unique to the illusionist. Projected image creates an illusion of you. You can make it appear anywhere you've ever been that's within 500 miles of your current location, giving you a great deal of ability to pop in and check on things far from your true place.

Unfortunately, no matter what your school of choice, it is a concentration spell. Despite lasting up to a day, this means it sharply curtails what other magics you can use while maintaining it. This makes it woefully undesirable for substitute-adventuring, despite its ability to let you cast spells while you "inhabit" it especially since you can't actually cast spells through it, especially combined with its 1 effective hit point (i.e. if it takes damage, the spell ends). edit (3-11-2019): Though Illusory Self might let you save it at least once. A nice synergy with a class feature that doesn't lend itself to tricks so easily. end edit

The Malleable Illusions feature does add some very interesting benefit to it. It can't make the projected image look like anything other than you, but it can change WHERE you project it. You have to see the illusion to use this feature; inhabit the projected image and look at yourself to fit this criterion. You can then alter the illusion to any specifications you like, within the boundaries of what the spell allows. There's not a lot that's choice-based when you cast projected image, but it has a 500 mile range, and you choose where you want to put it.

So an illusionist can effectively teleport his presence anywhere within 500 miles of his own real location nearly at will as long as he maintains this spell. That's a lot of utility! Still, you must maintain concentration; even if you "bring it home" and store it away so you can do things in person, if you break concentration you lose the spell. And it's not low level, so you won't have many slots for simply re-casting it.

Combined with Illusory Reality, however, it would let you hand objects that your real self has safely at home to somebody else for use, for a minute. Which could be interesting.

You can also hedge your bets a little bit with respect to risking combat with it thanks to mirror image, which makes you have a chance that your projected image will not be the one that takes the damage. And, since you can will it away, you can move it out of conflict areas if you're aware enough.

edit (3-30-2016): Also, since your senses are working through it, any spell you can cast with a range of "sight" can be cast "through" it. Sadly, I believe casting a spell with a casting time longer than 1 action interrupts concentration, so you can't project image and then cast mirage arcane from the PoV of the image because it would be interrupted. However, as noted in a couple other tricks, if you can see an existing illusion you've created through the eyes of your projected image, you can use Malleable Illusions on it. So you could, for instance, project to a mirage arcane and reshape the terrain and structures at your will without having to actually be there.

Additionally, since it looks like I haven't yet mentioned it, if you're willing to spend the extra spell slot(s) and the 200 gp (or the 9th level spell slot for a wish), glyph of warding does let you avoid having to have the Concentration maintained. So a spell glyph of warding that you trigger the next day (or any time later) of project image would, in fact, let you cast spells with long casting times or even other Concentration spells while keeping the image alive. Pity you can't keep it around for more than a day, but oh well.

And then, of course, you can have a load of fun with hallucinatory terrain and (even better) mirage arcana when you're going to stay in roughly the same place for a while; at-will re-imagining of your environment (even if it's just appearances) is pretty spiffy. If there are even cooler uses for this, I'm interested in hearing them. Any additional tricks are also welcome. (I can't think of anything too creative to do with Illusory Self; it is a pretty straight-forward ability.) I also don't know of too many other Illusion spells on which you can use Malleable Illusion; mirror image doesn't have changeable parameters, and Phantasmal Force sadly is not visible to you, so you can't alter it. Except for the trick above, anyway, which is questionable due to its weirdness. But if anybody else has ideas to add to this list, please share them!

edit (3-30-2016): And actually...
The same thing that lets you "teleport" with your project image spell would let you drag your hallucinatory terrain and mirage arcane along with you. This is only mildly useful with hallucinatory terrain, but anything you'd want to do with that spell gets far more beneficial when you can carry it around with you for its whole duration (with just a little bit of effort to keep moving it to keep it in sight).

Mirage arcane, on the other hand, is amazing with Malleable Illusions. Since the illusion is expressly tactile and thus impedes movement and can otherwise be interacted with (to the point of removing objects that qualify as "difficult terrain" if your illusion is of smooth terrain!), you're effectively completely warping the space to your will. Erect an illusory palace, and people can go inside and explore it, and even sleep in the soft, downy beds. Your party can cross that chasm that now has a bridge, or has been closed over to become a flat plain, or go swimming in that illusory lake. Or walk across the grassland that replaced the real lake.

It even has a range of "sight," which means that you can drop it from a great distance on a location. Imagine a villainous wizard or sorcerer casting it on a city from his mountain lair, transforming the mansions of the wealthy into dilapidated ruins, and holding the city hostage.

Now, imagine a more subtle wizard, particularly an Illusionist, using it...and altering it as he wills. A war-illusionist (or even somebody without Malleable Illusions) could make a city have iron walls, or could make an impregnable city's walls holey wrecks.

With Malleable Illusions, you can warp it at will, and, more importantly, move it anywhere you can see. You don't just cast it and be glad it's there when you return, you drag it with you! It's a huge area, and you can move it around as long as you can see it to anywhere you can see. This is particularly powerful with project image or even your familiar's ability to share its sight (giving you a literal bird's-eye view); as long as you can see the mirage arcane from where your senses are projected, you can move it to anywhere your projected senses can see. Perhaps you should add a huge tree or enormous spire to make it visible from a long way away just before moving it. And you don't need Concentration to use Malleable Illusions, so that mirage arcane could have been cast days ago and still be moved around by your projected image.

edited to add discussion points 3-30-2016: It has been brought up that the Trickster Cleric's subclass feature to cast an illusion of himself can cast spells through the image. The range limitation and requiring multiclassing seems to weaken this, to me. But I find myself as I write this not recalling what the range is; if it were line-of-sight, that could be pretty amazing. I'm not sure how useful it is if it is a more limited range, though, at least to the Illusionist. It seems more useful as an augment to other kinds of spellcasting. That said, it and mislead might have some interesting tricks that have not yet been brought to my attention; if so, I'd love to add them to this post.


Edit 5-1-2020: Ask your DM how, exactly, Illusory Reality works. The ability says you can pick one object that's part of the illusion as you cast it and make it real. It then says "you can do this as a bonus action on your turn during the illusion's duration." It gives no limit to how many times you can do this. I inherently assumed that it was once per illusion, but it doesn't actually say this. In theory, you could make one object at a time, as a bonus action on your turn, real, and each stays real for 1 minute (or until the spell runs out).

Hat of Disguise + Illusory Reality. Even if your DM does limit you to one Illusory Reality use per illusion, a Hat of Disguise lets you cast disguise self at will, so you can make anything your illusory self is carrying, wearing, or holding into a real object.

Edit 7-14-2020: This UA (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/UA2020_Feats.pdf) adds a feat called Eldritch Adept, which, if your DM permits it, allows you to choose any one Warlock Invocation (as long as it doesn't require any prerequisites, or you're a Warlock who meets the prerequisites). One of the biggest flaws with an Illusionist in D&D 5e is that most games only go to level 10 or 11 at most, and a Warlock from levels 2 through 10 can easily feel like the better illusionist thanks to Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces. (The former MUCH more than the latter, especially since the latter is replicable with a Hat of Disguise.) Thanks to the Eldritch Adept feat, a variant human wizard going Illusionist can pick up Misty Visions (which is silent image at will) at level 1. A non-human (or non-variant human) Illusionist wizard can get it at level 4. No more need to dip 2 Warlock or suffer feeling like an inferior illusionist. At worst, you're behind for levels 2 and 3, and that's manageable since the game moves past them pretty quickly.

There's not a ton that synergizes between silent image at will and Malleable Illusions, though it is nice to sort-of have Subtle Spell if you have an active silent image to modify, and you can ensure you have one almost all the time if you don't mind a lot of re-casting. But even so, you'll just FEEL more like a proper illusionist when you can pop off a silent image at will. Especially with the ability to make minor illusions that have sound to back it up, which restores the stricken-through part in flexible minor illusions up above, since silent image can produce creatures and minor illusion can give them voices.

[JoeJ]

Phantasmal Force is only visible - and only even partially real - to the target of the spell. Unless you've used it on yourself, you can't see it, so you can't use Malleable Illusion on it. It's probably not really worthwhile to have an illusion only you can see which you can reshape at will, either.

The only use I can think of would be recreation, but that's still pretty cool. It'd be like having your own private holodeck.

[Sir cryosin]

You can use phantasm force to imagine a chessboard with all the pieces then summon unseen servant and sit there and play chess by yourself in your party members will think you're crazy and when you lose to your unseen servant you can just flip the imaginary chessboard over and no will know

[SharkForce]

just to be clear: major illusion requires an action to move it around.

this puts a fairly strict limit on how many "pets" you can have.

[Segev]

just to be clear: major illusion requires an action to move it around.

this puts a fairly strict limit on how many "pets" you can have.

Hm, that is a good point. So you can leave them lying around to go back and "pick up" later, but can't really cart too many (i.e. more than one) around at a time.

[SharkForce]

Hm, that is a good point. So you can leave them lying around to go back and "pick up" later, but can't really cart too many (i.e. more than one) around at a time.

well, not quite.

you can move the illusion if you're within range, and you can move it to anywhere within range. which means you can move it up to 240 feet with an action. presumably, sight lines are required, of course.

but that does mean that if you are traveling on a theoretical infinite featureless plane at your regular move rate of 30, you can bring along 8 illusions with you assuming perfect management.

(spending 48 seconds turning every single corner in a dungeon, on the other hand, well... that's less desirable. but since one illusion is completely reusable, you probably don't typically need 8 as an illusionist).

[XmonkTad]

Hm, that is a good point. So you can leave them lying around to go back and "pick up" later, but can't really cart too many (i.e. more than one) around at a time.

Actually, I wonder if you can give the image a command to "stay with you" and just have it follow you that way.

This might be a cheesy interpretation, but the spell states "As long as you are within range of the illusion, you can use your action to cause the image to move to any other spot within range." So what if you tell it to act as a tattoo on your arm? It is always within range, since it's always on your arm. So do you need to use an action to keep it acting like that? The more I read it, the more I think so. But if you're not moving 60 feet in a round, you'll be able to have more than one illusion following you.

[SharkForce]

using your action to make the illusion move to any other spot does not sound at all like fixing it to a mobile object to me, but i suppose if you can sell that to your DM you can run with it.

[Segev]

A certain amount of autonomy could be argued for them, since "chase after and attack that guy" is a valid thing to "fire and forget" an illusion to do, I think. But it is stretching it a bit.

[E’Tallitnics]

Your 1st point denotes that Minor Image is a cantrip. Do you perhaps mean Minor Illusion? Minor Image was only in the playtest if I remember correctly.

Also: I really appreciate this work! I'm working on Glix my Forest Gnome Illusionist.

[Segev]

Your 1st point denotes that Minor Image is a cantrip. Do you perhaps mean Minor Illusion? Minor Image was only in the playtest if I remember correctly.

Also: I really appreciate this work! I'm working on Glix my Forest Gnome Illusionist.

I did, in fact, mean minor illusion. I will correct that.

[SharkForce]

A certain amount of autonomy could be argued for them, since "chase after and attack that guy" is a valid thing to "fire and forget" an illusion to do, I think. But it is stretching it a bit.

nothing about the spell implies that it is an option as far as i can tell.

best case scenario, i see nothing that remotely implies it could extend beyond the 20 foot area if it does work, unless maybe you spend your action to make it move. even then, i feel it is strongly implied that if it contacts something while an enemy is watching, it probably goes translucent for them, and the entire reason to carry it along with you is kinda lost.

[Segev]

nothing about the spell implies that it is an option as far as i can tell.

best case scenario, i see nothing that remotely implies it could extend beyond the 20 foot area if it does work, unless maybe you spend your action to make it move. even then, i feel it is strongly implied that if it contacts something while an enemy is watching, it probably goes translucent for them, and the entire reason to carry it along with you is kinda lost.

True, more or less. I do wonder if you can make it be an illusion of an object and just carry it, though. It doesn't provide tactile illusion the way mirage arcana does, but it still can be "anything." So if you make an illusion of a sword you're wielding, it should move with your hand, shouldn't it? Assuming you're able to act well enough like you're holding a real object, it hopefully would be convincing.

More to the point, would an illusion of a coin that you put in your belt pouch stay in the belt pouch?

[JackPhoenix]

True, more or less. I do wonder if you can make it be an illusion of an object and just carry it, though. It doesn't provide tactile illusion the way mirage arcana does, but it still can be "anything." So if you make an illusion of a sword you're wielding, it should move with your hand, shouldn't it? Assuming you're able to act well enough like you're holding a real object, it hopefully would be convincing.

More to the point, would an illusion of a coin that you put in your belt pouch stay in the belt pouch?

I think it should move with your hand as long as you're in the 20' cube, when you leave that area, you'll need to spend an action to move the whole cube

[SharkForce]

the spell specifically says if you interact with it, the illusion is revealed as a fake.

[Segev]

the spell specifically says if you interact with it, the illusion is revealed as a fake.

I believe it says that a creature that interacts with it can tell it's a fake, not that "you" interacting with it reveals it to be a fake to everyone.

It doesn't include tactile illusions.

It also doesn't say that there is a stationary 20' cube; all it says is that the illusion must fit entirely within a 20' cube. That's a size limitation, not a restricted boundary of movement, in context.

When the airline says your carry-on luggage must fit within the bin they have to demonstrate the size, they don't mean you have to leave it there. Merely that it must be sized such that it fits within that bin.

[Douche]

Minor Illusion Flexibility
This one's not a BIG deal, since they could just re-cast the cantrip with new parameters, but it does allow them to avoid having to make any obvious spellcasting activities, lending a little more realism to it. This could allow them to have an illusion of a person have a full-fledged conversation, as long as the illusionist can get away with sitting quietly on the sidelines and just "listening."

The difference between Minor Illusion (cantrip) & Silent Image (1st level) is that one can move, and the other cannot.

The examples for Minor Illusion are muddy footprints or a chair. Static objects. Meanwhile, silent image states "alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image"

Thus, I wouldn't imagine that you can cause a minor illusion to have a conversation with someone, even by casting it repeatedly - that'd make it like watching a slideshow of someone moving their mouth at 1/6 fps. You could, however, cast silent image to create a guy speaking and then use minor illusion to simulate a voice.

If you cast a minor illusion of a flag, it will not billow in the wind. If you want it to swish around then you have to use silent image... Similarly, minor illusion would be good for creating a corpse or a mannequin, not a moving/breathing creature.

[SharkForce]

I believe it says that a creature that interacts with it can tell it's a fake, not that "you" interacting with it reveals it to be a fake to everyone.

It doesn't include tactile illusions.

It also doesn't say that there is a stationary 20' cube; all it says is that the illusion must fit entirely within a 20' cube. That's a size limitation, not a restricted boundary of movement, in context.

When the airline says your carry-on luggage must fit within the bin they have to demonstrate the size, they don't mean you have to leave it there. Merely that it must be sized such that it fits within that bin.

the spell tells you how to move it around very explicitly. there is no question of whether you can move it around, and there is equally no question as to whether it costs an action or not. the spell very clearly states if you want it to move somewhere, you can spend an action to make it move to another location within range. not "just cast the spell and it will move itself wherever and however you want for eternity with no further effort on your part".

and whether the spell is technically revealed as a fake or not, moving through your illusion is going to make it obvious that it is an illusion (or at the very least that either you or it have a selective physical presence... and it probably won't take them long to figure out which). they might not be able to see through it (there is a very specific procedure for that), but that doesn't mean they're any less aware that it isn't real.

[Segev]

The difference between Minor Illusion (cantrip) & Silent Image (1st level) is that one can move, and the other cannot.

The examples for Minor Illusion are muddy footprints or a chair. Static objects. Meanwhile, silent image states "alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image"

Thus, I wouldn't imagine that you can cause a minor illusion to have a conversation with someone, even by casting it repeatedly - that'd make it like watching a slideshow of someone moving their mouth at 1/6 fps. You could, however, cast silent image to create a guy speaking and then use minor illusion to simulate a voice.I'll need to re-read it when I can take a break and crack open the book, but I seem to recall --hm. Maybe it's an explicit part of the Illusionist's "Improved Minor Illusion" special ability. But I could have sworn that one of the examples of combining the sound and sight aspects was something like a marching group of soldiers making noise as they approached.


the spell tells you how to move it around very explicitly. there is no question of whether you can move it around, and there is equally no question as to whether it costs an action or not. the spell very clearly states if you want it to move somewhere, you can spend an action to make it move to another location within range. not "just cast the spell and it will move itself wherever and however you want for eternity with no further effort on your part".There's an excluded middle, here: that you give it a basic function and script that it follows without further interference. For example, a swinging bladed pendulum could swing back and forth, making audibly sharp noises as it does so. A fire could crackle, with visibly moving flames. Arguably, it could start as a small flame and 'catch' on branches and grass and stuff, spreading out to cover its full 20' cube. An orc could be set to pace back and forth, grunting and muttering under his breath about how lousy his job is.

The action you must take to control it is to change that script, give it specific behavior, or otherwise make it do something other than the basic thing you had last set it to doing. I think. Again, will have to re-check the spell when I can get to my book.


and whether the spell is technically revealed as a fake or not, moving through your illusion is going to make it obvious that it is an illusion (or at the very least that either you or it have a selective physical presence... and it probably won't take them long to figure out which). they might not be able to see through it (there is a very specific procedure for that), but that doesn't mean they're any less aware that it isn't real.
On the other hand, if you interact with it and it seems to act as such a thing would in response, no such clue would be given. Again, you're assuming "I walk through my illusion" or something, when what I'm talking about is holding an illusory coin in your hand. I think that coin would move with your hand, as any coin would. If you drop it, it would fall to the ground and make the right sort of "clink" noise. It just wouldn't have any weight or texture, and couldn't stop you from putting your finger through it if you weren't careful about miming things correctly.

[Segev]

Alright, upon review...yeah. Minor illusion is objects only. I'm no longer even sure you can do "moving" objects, like a flame or a shrub whose leaves are blowing in the wind, though if I were DM I'd allow it for the same reason I'd allow a silent image to be of a flickering flame or a tree with blowing leaves.

This does make the ability to do sounds and images with minor illusion a little weird; few objects really make noise. I suppose this lets you make rustling leaves with your shrub, or crackling logs with your flames? Lends weight to the notion that some motion is allowed.

Silent image and its bigger brothers allow for creatures, though. I think I get how that's supposed to work: when you spend your action making them move, it's no different than moving yourself; it's actually taking place over an entire round. Given that a major image can be made permanent without need for concentration as a 6th level spell, and that it seems to be meant to be useful without the caster having to always be around, presumably again some amount of "idle motion" is allowable, whether it's a creature standing guard but moving just enough to be, well, convincingly not-a-statue, a couple major images of courtiers having a conversation (even if it's just exchanging meaningless random small talk or semi-verbal noises), or a bird perched on a branch that is singing.

But you're right; it would take your action to make an illusion of, say, a coin follow your hand as you pick it up, let alone to stay in your belt pouch. Moving a bevvy of major images along with you would, in fact, look really unnatural without a permissive DM who let you give group commands or "split" actions to "partial" move them to stick together.

[Douche]

Alright, upon review...yeah. Minor illusion is objects only. I'm no longer even sure you can do "moving" objects, like a flame or a shrub whose leaves are blowing in the wind, though if I were DM I'd allow it for the same reason I'd allow a silent image to be of a flickering flame or a tree with blowing leaves.

This does make the ability to do sounds and images with minor illusion a little weird; few objects really make noise. I suppose this lets you make rustling leaves with your shrub, or crackling logs with your flames? Lends weight to the notion that some motion is allowed.

Silent image and its bigger brothers allow for creatures, though. I think I get how that's supposed to work: when you spend your action making them move, it's no different than moving yourself; it's actually taking place over an entire round. Given that a major image can be made permanent without need for concentration as a 6th level spell, and that it seems to be meant to be useful without the caster having to always be around, presumably again some amount of "idle motion" is allowable, whether it's a creature standing guard but moving just enough to be, well, convincingly not-a-statue, a couple major images of courtiers having a conversation (even if it's just exchanging meaningless random small talk or semi-verbal noises), or a bird perched on a branch that is singing.

But you're right; it would take your action to make an illusion of, say, a coin follow your hand as you pick it up, let alone to stay in your belt pouch. Moving a bevvy of major images along with you would, in fact, look really unnatural without a permissive DM who let you give group commands or "split" actions to "partial" move them to stick together.

Problem with using minor illusion twice (once for image, once for sound) is that the spell states that using it again causes the first one to fade :smallsigh: Still, I think creating a body (standing or otherwise) is fair as long as you don't mind it being a static image... Now you've got me imagining an Arcane Trickster getting hit with an arrow after being made, ducking behind a pillar, casting a minor illusion of his own corpse, and stealthing away.

Although I'm not sure if the that enhanced illusions thing you mentioned lets you have two... Truthfully, I've never even read the Wizard section of the book. Never had a desire to play one.

If you want illusory coins, you can use Creation! 5 foot cube of real coins for 12 hours. That's a hell of a shopping spree! It's a 5th level spell though.

[Segev]

Problem with using minor illusion twice (once for image, once for sound) is that the spell states that using it again causes the first one to fade :smallsigh: Still, I think creating a body (standing or otherwise) is fair as long as you don't mind it being a static image... Now you've got me imagining an Arcane Trickster getting hit with an arrow after being made, ducking behind a pillar, casting a minor illusion of his own corpse, and stealthing away.

Although I'm not sure if the that enhanced illusions thing you mentioned lets you have two... Truthfully, I've never even read the Wizard section of the book. Never had a desire to play one.

If you want illusory coins, you can use Creation! 5 foot cube of real coins for 12 hours. That's a hell of a shopping spree! It's a 5th level spell though.
Improved Minor Illusion is a class feature for the Illusionist specialty of Wizard. It gives you a sound and an image together. Which is why I was looking for ways the two would work together. Still objects don't usually make noise, but lightly moving ones can. Heck, a "dropped coin" would make a noise and probably be valid.

I cover creation tricks in my opening post. Maleable Illusions with creation is pretty darned impressive.

[Segev]

Put spoiler blocks in for easier browsing, and added another trick: Telepresence. If anybody has ways of making better use of project image, it would be of interest.

[Segev]

Not sure I want to add this to the list at this stage, because it may be overshadowed by things you can do at lower level, but I think it's worth discussing:

Illusory Reality, the 14th-level Illusionist feature, works on any Illusion spell of 1st level or higher you cast. With two levels of Warlock, a character can gain disguise self and, more importantly, silent image as at-will spells he can cast. Because 5e's invocations always refer to it as casting the spell, there's no question that the warlock has cast silent image when he uses that Invocation. And silent image is unquestionably an Illusion spell of first level or higher. (Same with disguise self.)

So, a 16th level character that is Illusionist 14/Warlock 2 can conjure up any object he likes that fits into a 15 ft. cube and then, as a bonus action, make it real. And there's no limit to how many of these he can have active, save for the fact that the earliest one ceases to be real 1 minute later.

He can also make any part of his outfit or other accoutrements that are part of his illusory disguise thanks to disguise self real.

Now, an Illusionist can do these things with these spells that he casts normally, of course, but he can't cast them at will (at least, not before level 18, so this is 2 levels early).

The other thing that overshadows these tricks, though, is that he can still cast creation the night before at level 9. Make a nice, comfy bed in which to sleep (works especially well if one is a Halfling or gnome, since a 5 ft. long bed is perfectly comfortable for them), and then turn it (with Malleable Illusions) into a wooden coin or a scarf the next morning; so you have any object you want that's made of wood or cloth or the like all day without having necessarily spent a spell slot.

However, it's still worth honorable mention, I think, and I wonder if there are ways to further optimize or improve on this as a combination.

[tieren]

You might want to mention the trickery domain cleric channel divinity.

I think if I were to build a full illusionist I would definitely want this in my wheel house.

Even after the illusion is detected it can still deliver spells for you. Just imagine the enemy deciding they can walk past the illusion of you only to get hit with a touch spell in the back. Then even if they know its an illusion they can't stop it from moving among and between them hitting with vampiric touch or shocking grasp or something.

Then imagine you cast some or other regular illusions, even if they know you're an illusionist how are they going to treat them.

Could do similar tricks chaining conjure spells and illusions of the things you conjured (or vice versa). I used to make an illusion of a brown bear appear to walk in front of the moon druid in the party, enemies would take a swing at the illusion realize its not real and then the druid would maul them when they wouldn't think he was real.

[Segev]

I'm not sure that's really worth the two-level dip, but I will think about how to incorporate a mention of it. The trouble is that mislead does much the same thing without leaving the class, and only comes online a level later (I think; I can't check right now to see what level it actually is, but I think it's 2nd). And it makes you invisible at the same time, while not costing you advancement in your primary class.

Because Invoke Duplicity (the Trickster Cleric domain feature) isn't casting a spell, you can't use any of your Illusionist special features on it, either. Not that there's much you could do anyway, since it makes a very specific illusion. It's useful for wading in to deliver touch spells without fear of reprisal, sure, but that's not really an "illusionist trick."

I do like the idea of dropping illusory things that will shortly be replaced by real ones in order to double-fake-out somebody into ignoring a real threat.

[MaxWilson]

I've been looking over the Illusionist, as my not-infrequent posts on the subject may suggest, and I've decided to make a thread which compiles some of the neat things they can pull off, particularly with Malleable Illusions (their 6th level specialist power).

I just want to say, this thread is awesome. Great ideas! I especially love your points about Disguise Self and Illusory Script.

Edit: you can't cast spells through Project Image though. Unless, perhaps Illusory Reality allows it. AFB and I don't remember if you can use it on creatures as well as objects. I think probably not.

[Segev]

I just want to say, this thread is awesome. Great ideas! I especially love your points about Disguise Self and Illusory Script.

Edit: you can't cast spells through Project Image though.

...huh, you're right. I must have remembered it from earlier editions and just auto-read it into the description. But it doesn't say you can. That...makes it considerably less worthwhile than I expect out of a 7th level spell slot. I will have to edit that section after I figure out if this is even worth using, really. I had figured the concentration was to limit the magic you could do through it.

[Moo, I'm Human]

Wait, could you cast an Illusion, make it real, hit someone with it, and then change it to an Illusion again?

[Segev]

Wait, could you cast an Illusion, make it real, hit someone with it, and then change it to an Illusion again?

Illusory Reality, the 14th level Illusionist ability that makes an object in an Illusion of 1st level or higher that you cast real for up to 1 minute, expressly forbids the object being made real from hurting anybody.

You could, however, make an illusion of a bridge real, cross it with your friends, and then, when the pharaoh's army tries to cross it after you, make it illusory again...

[MaxWilson]

...huh, you're right. I must have remembered it from earlier editions and just auto-read it into the description. But it doesn't say you can. That...makes it considerably less worthwhile than I expect out of a 7th level spell slot. I will have to edit that section after I figure out if this is even worth using, really. I had figured the concentration was to limit the magic you could do through it.

I think "line-of-sight teleportation at will for a day" is still pretty cool and worthwhile though.

This thread has increased my desire to play an illusionist at some point by approximately 1000%. I already thought Disguise Self was pretty cool, but being able to reconfigure on the fly turns you into Mystique without having to wait for 18th level Spell Mastery. Very, very cool.

Even better with Seeming: 8 hours, no concentration shapeshifting disguises for the whole party and all of your hirelings and minions. Try and tell me that's not awesome.

Final note: not being able to cast spells through a projected image isn't a big deal to me because in the edition I'm used to (2nd edition) you can't do that anyway, although there is supposedly a 9th level version by Rary the Traitor which does allow spellcasting. But by default I don't expect it.

[Segev]

I think "line-of-sight teleportation at will for a day" is still pretty cool and worthwhile though.Actually, it's "teleport to anywhere you've been within 500 miles all day," since you don't need LoS or even LoE to create the image there. But it's still awfully limited if you can't even cast through it, since keeping it up requires you to not use any concentration effects. So even if you move out in your real body, you've got to keep concentrating on it if you want to use it again. Its long duration is almost baffling to me, but I suppose it's useful if you just want to hang out all day long.


This thread has increased my desire to play an illusionist at some point by approximately 1000%.I'm glad! I started it because Malleable Illusions, when just some of this was pointed out to me, made me excited by the subclass.


I already thought Disguise Self was pretty cool, but being able to reconfigure on the fly turns you into Mystique without having to wait for 18th level Spell Mastery. Very, very cool.It is worth noting that a Warlock can do this by level 2 with the right Invocation (the one that lets him cast disguise self at will, without spending a spell slot). It does require actually casting, though, if that bugs you, rather than merely an act of will. But it's still cool that the Illusionist can do it, too!


Even better with Seeming: 8 hours, no concentration shapeshifting disguises for the whole party and all of your hirelings and minions. Try and tell me that's not awesome.And this one, the Warlock can't do. I'll have to add it to the top post when I edit it for the other stuff. Thanks for it! That could be rather cool. Who doesn't want to be Skeletor and the Masters of Evil attending King Randor's welcome-home party for his long-lost daughter?



Final note: not being able to cast spells through a projected image isn't a big deal to me because in the edition I'm used to (2nd edition) you can't do that anyway, although there is supposedly a 9th level version by Rary the Traitor which does allow spellcasting. But by default I don't expect it.
Huh. I seem to remember it being part of the point from 1e AD&D. Now I'll have to try to remember to look it up when I get home.

[MaxWilson]

Actually, it's "teleport to anywhere you've been within 500 miles all day," since you don't need LoS or even LoE to create the image there. But it's still awfully limited if you can't even cast through it, since keeping it up requires you to not use any concentration effects. So even if you move out in your real body, you've got to keep concentrating on it if you want to use it again. Its long duration is almost baffling to me, but I suppose it's useful if you just want to hang out all day long.

My gaming philosophy is that information is power. Being able to scout out the dragon's lair without risking your actual body is valuable to me. It's almost, but not quite, as good as having done it before.

Surprise kills.


It is worth noting that a Warlock can do this by level 2 with the right Invocation (the one that lets him cast disguise self at will, without spending a spell slot). It does require actually casting, though, if that bugs you, rather than merely an act of will. But it's still cool that the Illusionist can do it, too!

The reason the Illusionist excites me and the Warlock doesn't is that the Warlock feels like a one-trick pony, whereas the Illusionist is using a generalist capability. Also, having to chant and gesture is kind of a downer too, from a pure coolness perspective, compared to simply changing.

And besides, the Warlock has to use limited resources (invocations) to pull this trick off, and he's only a warlock, whereas the Illusionist still gets all the wizard tricks.

All in all, I wouldn't turn this down for a warlock but I'm war more excited about the illusionist version.

[Segev]

My gaming philosophy is that information is power. Being able to scout out the dragon's lair without risking your actual body is valuable to me. It's almost, but not quite, as good as having done it before.

Surprise kills.

Not a terrible use, but remember that the same thing that protects it from any traps - its intangibility - means you may not notice said traps, because unless you're also skilled at searching for them...any that don't go off won't be revealed.

Still, that does give you knowledge of his lair's layout. And if you cast disguise self, your projected image will probably bear the same disguise, so the dragon may not know who really scouted him out.

[MaxWilson]

Not a terrible use, but remember that the same thing that protects it from any traps - its intangibility - means you may not notice said traps, because unless you're also skilled at searching for them...any that don't go off won't be revealed.

Still, that does give you knowledge of his lair's layout. And if you cast disguise self, your projected image will probably bear the same disguise, so the dragon may not know who really scouted him out.

It's not so much the traps for me, and more the general knowledge of enemy dispositions. I prefer CAW games where you emphatically cannot assume that the DM will create "level-appropriate" encounters for you, so the ability to know e.g. that there appears to be only one dragon who lives here is pretty valuable to me, and so it knowing whether he has an army of Yuan-ti guarding him.

Also, you can use this spell to attempt negotiations without risking your actual physical body if negotiations go sour. That's how I imagine non-illusionists using the spell, and how I've previously planned to use it on BBEGs that I run.

[E’Tallitnics]

Surprise kills.

That's T-Shirt Gold right there!

[SharkForce]

Final note: not being able to cast spells through a projected image isn't a big deal to me because in the edition I'm used to (2nd edition) you can't do that anyway, although there is supposedly a 9th level version by Rary the Traitor which does allow spellcasting. But by default I don't expect it.


Huh. I seem to remember it being part of the point from 1e AD&D. Now I'll have to try to remember to look it up when I get home.

2nd AD&D I'm about 90% sure it does as well.

[MaxWilson]

2nd AD&D I'm about 90% sure it does as well.

Hmmm. Maybe I'm getting Rary's enhancements mixed up. Maybe it was that his version was long-range? I'm AFB but you could be right about the spellcasting being in vanilla.

[Segev]

Added tricks to the opening post based on conversations here. Also corrected project image to no longer claim you can cast spells through it. Expanded a bit on mirage arcane (and, to a lesser extent, hallucinatory terrain).

[Vogonjeltz]

This one's not a BIG deal, since they could just re-cast the cantrip with new parameters, but it does allow them to avoid having to make any obvious spellcasting activities, lending a little more realism to it. This could allow them to have an illusion of a person have a full-fledged conversation, as long as the illusionist can get away with sitting quietly on the sidelines and just "listening."

Minor Illusion can't create a person, only an object. If you had like, a communicator though, you could totally fake that someone else is speaking from it. Wouldn't benefit from Malleable Illusion though.


This one's a little weird, and doesn't work until very high level, or requires you to be creative. Because simulacrum requires "pieces" (nail clippings, blood, something) from the creature it is to mimic, your valid parameters for what creature it is simulating are limited to what material components you have on-hand.

This doesn't work, Malleable Illusion doesn't recast the spell, it allows you to alter the spells outcome as it was cast. So if Simulacrum is specific to whoevers parts are involved, then it can only be a simulacrum of that creature. It doesn't matter if you have parts from multiple creatures, only one of them gets their parts used in the casting.


Combined with Illusory Reality, however, it would let you hand objects that your real self has safely at home to somebody else for use, for a minute. Which could be interesting.

Given that the Projected Image is intangible, it would presumbly automatically drop anything accompanying object that was made 'real'. But I think I'd let the player use that to show objects to someone else (i.e. A map, a coin, etc..)

You could certainly do Meteor Swarm though the Projected Image however (granted, 1 mile max range).


My gaming philosophy is that information is power. Being able to scout out the dragon's lair without risking your actual body is valuable to me. It's almost, but not quite, as good as having done it before.

Surprise kills.

Agreed, Project Image would be a safe way of scouting out something like the Tomb of Horrors (granted it wouldn't be able to even trigger most traps being intangible).

[Segev]

Minor Illusion can't create a person, only an object. If you had like, a communicator though, you could totally fake that someone else is speaking from it. Wouldn't benefit from Malleable Illusion though.Ah, right. I know that now, but forgot to re-read that entry and correct it. I'll catch it next time through. Thanks!


This doesn't work, Malleable Illusion doesn't recast the spell, it allows you to alter the spells outcome as it was cast. So if Simulacrum is specific to whoevers parts are involved, then it can only be a simulacrum of that creature. It doesn't matter if you have parts from multiple creatures, only one of them gets their parts used in the casting.I'm not sure there's any limit to using "extra" material components. But, like I said, it's iffy. But when you can wish for a simulacrum, you can get away with this; no material component at all, so the simulacrum is of who- or what-ever you want it to be.


Given that the Projected Image is intangible, it would presumbly automatically drop anything accompanying object that was made 'real'. But I think I'd let the player use that to show objects to someone else (i.e. A map, a coin, etc..)Probably, but it would still drop where the projected image is, not where you are. So the 1-minute-duration real "thing" is there.


You could certainly do Meteor Swarm though the Projected Image however (granted, 1 mile max range).Any spell you need to see your target for, which doesn't have a long casting time, would work. Not many of those, sadly.


Agreed, Project Image would be a safe way of scouting out something like the Tomb of Horrors (granted it wouldn't be able to even trigger most traps being intangible).
Being not just intangible, but literally without even an incorporeal form, it is one of the few things that could go safely through the walls. Which are warded against incorporeal creatures.

[Segev]

Updated the "Shapeshifting Simulacrum" trick with some limiting information realized upon re-reading the spell. The threads on this spell have been useful to me, at least!

Also realized that a simulacrum of you would share your Malleable Illusions ability, so if you have it use its 6+ level slots on major image, it at least has the ability to have permanent reshapable illusions it can keep herd on for you.

[Segev]

Added an entry after the discussion of major images. The stockpiling problem was brought up early in the thread, and I realized recently that leomund's secret chest can help resolve it. It's not absolutely perfect, but it would let you bring them out more or less at your convenience without having to keep focusing on moving them around.

[SharkForce]

hmmm... i suppose that depends on whether you think the chest is moving or not. if it is moving, then the illusion won't go with it. if, on the other hand, the chest literally moves the space it is occupying, rather than changing which space it is occupying, the illusion should go along.

however, something like a portable hole might work.

[Segev]

hmmm... i suppose that depends on whether you think the chest is moving or not. if it is moving, then the illusion won't go with it. if, on the other hand, the chest literally moves the space it is occupying, rather than changing which space it is occupying, the illusion should go along.

however, something like a portable hole might work.

I look at it this way: if I fill up the chest with water, and then cause it to vanish, the water goes with it. It doesn't stay behind and splash all over.

Further, the spell (http://www.5esrd.com/spellcasting/all-spells/s/secret-chest) says, "You hide a chest, and all its contents, on the Ethereal Plane." The illusions are contents of the chest, as long as they're within its confines.

What's of more interest is whether bags of holding would work or not. I think portable holes would, simply because there's not "space" to leave the illusions behind. The bag...arguably, you're moving the interior around, though given what happens if you rupture it, that may not be true, either.

But for the secret chest, at the least, it pretty much has to work that way. The illusions are contents of the chest. The spell says the chest and its contents go. It doesn't expressly say the contents come back with the chest, but it's heavily implied, and 5e isn't quite the stickler for precise wording that 3.5 was.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure there's any limit to using "extra" material components. But, like I said, it's iffy. But when you can wish for a simulacrum, you can get away with this; no material component at all, so the simulacrum is of who- or what-ever you want it to be.

But if you Wish, it's no longer an Illusion spell, it's Conjuration.

[Segev]

But if you Wish, it's no longer an Illusion spell, it's Conjuration.

Interesting take on it, but the wish was for an illusion, and you did cast that illusion. Frankly, though, if a DM is going to try to quibble over the precise wording of this specific trick, he probably really just doesn't want to allow it, so arguing the point is futile.

[SharkForce]

I look at it this way: if I fill up the chest with water, and then cause it to vanish, the water goes with it. It doesn't stay behind and splash all over.

Further, the spell (http://www.5esrd.com/spellcasting/all-spells/s/secret-chest) says, "You hide a chest, and all its contents, on the Ethereal Plane." The illusions are contents of the chest, as long as they're within its confines.

What's of more interest is whether bags of holding would work or not. I think portable holes would, simply because there's not "space" to leave the illusions behind. The bag...arguably, you're moving the interior around, though given what happens if you rupture it, that may not be true, either.

But for the secret chest, at the least, it pretty much has to work that way. The illusions are contents of the chest. The spell says the chest and its contents go. It doesn't expressly say the contents come back with the chest, but it's heavily implied, and 5e isn't quite the stickler for precise wording that 3.5 was.

sure, but an illusion isn't a physical thing (usually) nor is it connected to that thing; you can't make your illusion stick to the chest if you were to move it normally. or in other words, i think there's room to argue that the illusions are not actually contents of the chest.

a bag of holding is essentially a portal to an extradimensional space. when you move the bag, you're moving the portal, just like you are with a portable hole.

the question is whether the secret chest is moving the chest and the contents through space (in which case interacting with the illusions will fail and you can't transport them this way) or is literally moving the space delineated by the chest, because from all that we can tell the chest is not itself a portal.

[Segev]

the question is whether the secret chest is moving the chest and the contents through space (in which case interacting with the illusions will fail and you can't transport them this way) or is literally moving the space delineated by the chest, because from all that we can tell the chest is not itself a portal.

I suppose? But... it doesn't say it's moving it through space. Quite the contrary; it's transporting it to the ethereal plane.

And I can't think of any way to define "contents" that doesn't include illusions that are in the box. It doesn't say "objects." It says "contents." The illusions are, undeniably, contained within the box. (Unless you deliberately make them not be, in which case that's your fault.)

[thisguy17]

In regards to the Creation spell trick, if one were to create an arrow and shoot it into an enemy and then use malleable illusions to make it, say, 25 cubic feet of wood (or other material, depending on the remaining duration), I'm pretty sure that enemy would be rather uncomfortable, if not exploded.

Is there anything stopping this from happening? Other than a missed attack or the created object being removed. I suppose a prepared action to change the arrow when an ally fires would turn it into a massive spike flying through the air? Seems really really strong to me.

[Segev]

In regards to the Creation spell trick, if one were to create an arrow and shoot it into an enemy and then use malleable illusions to make it, say, 25 cubic feet of wood (or other material, depending on the remaining duration), I'm pretty sure that enemy would be rather uncomfortable, if not exploded.

Is there anything stopping this from happening? Other than a missed attack or the created object being removed. I suppose a prepared action to change the arrow when an ally fires would turn it into a massive spike flying through the air? Seems really really strong to me.

Creative (pun actually unintended) idea, but unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on whether you're the trick's user or victim), since you can't create the 25 cubic feet of wood inside somebody with creation in the first place, you can't do so with Malleable Illusions. Remember that the illusion's alteration must be into some form it could've been when you cast it. So it's less that the arrow grows into a block (though that could be the visual effect), and more that it's replaced by a block as if you'd just used creation to make said block.

So, from a visualization perspective, the arrow probably extracts itself from the wound while morphing into the block of wood.

[SharkForce]

Creative (pun actually unintended) idea, but unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on whether you're the trick's user or victim), since you can't create the 25 cubic feet of wood inside somebody with creation in the first place, you can't do so with Malleable Illusions. Remember that the illusion's alteration must be into some form it could've been when you cast it. So it's less that the arrow grows into a block (though that could be the visual effect), and more that it's replaced by a block as if you'd just used creation to make said block.

So, from a visualization perspective, the arrow probably extracts itself from the wound while morphing into the block of wood.

on the other hand, you can use that to pin your target to a wall that wasn't there when you first shot the arrow :)

[Segev]

on the other hand, you can use that to pin your target to a wall that wasn't there when you first shot the arrow :)

I'm intrigued! Please elaborate; I fear I can't quite picture what you must be, as I'm not entirely sure how that works.

[SharkForce]

I'm intrigued! Please elaborate; I fear I can't quite picture what you must be, as I'm not entirely sure how that works.

you can't make the arrow expand inside the person. but there's no reason you shouldn't be able to have the arrow expand outside the person (into a wall).

[Segev]

you can't make the arrow expand inside the person. but there's no reason you shouldn't be able to have the arrow expand outside the person (into a wall).

Ah! Interesting. Maybe! It's not having to be created inside somebody that it isn't already inside...

...though if somebody had a hole through their shoulder, would you allow a wizard to cast creation to create a wall behind them with a spoke sticking out of it, through said hole? If "yes," then this works. If "no," I'm not sure it does.

But I do like the ideas!

[Slayn82]

Turn the Arrow into a Rope completely binding the target?

[Discord]

So coming up soon I am going to be playing an Illusionist Wizard in a campaign weekly. I challenged myself and took no combat spells / cantrips (yet), and were starting our characters off at Level 3.

All the spells I took are used to enhance my Illusions.

So the first would be Unseen Servant + Silent Illusion + Find Familiar

So Bonus Action you can control your Unseen Servant and it has an AC and hit points so I assume it can be touched, it says it is a shapeless force, but all that matters is, is it does things that a servant could do.

Silent Illusion is an Action, you give your Unseen Servant a shape that would be reasonable for it's form (such as a person) and form that around the Unseen Servant. So 1. when a person touches your 'illusion' it can actually feel it, and 2, you use Silent Illusion to make your Unseen Servant appear how ever you want it to appear using your Bonus Action + Action you can continue to move the Unseen Servant and Silent Image. You can then communicate telepathically with your Find Familiar (Raven) to speak as if it were a person even if it is coming from the Raven's mouth.

With these three steps you can make a very convincing 'Illusion' that a Raven Familiar could perch onto and an Illusion that can interact with it's environment (Unseen Servant).

Then there is things like using Mold Earth + Minor Illusion to make a hidden pit trap.

Perhaps use an Unseen Servant + Minor Illusion or Gust to convince someone that there is some ghost activity as things get thrown around by the Unseen Servant and the Minor Illusion makes convincing noises or things get pushed around with the use of the Gust cantrip.

Or casting Pyrotechnics + Silent Image, causing the few Goblins at their camp to be covered in smoke, then they can see within and outside the fog shapes of wolves (or other people/creatures) just out of their reach.

Another idea I had was using Phantasmal Force on an enemy you are fighting. The enemy is fighting two copies of you (the real you, and the Phantasmal Force you) there are a few spells that make multiples of you, so I figured this would be a good use of the spell as the both of you attack the enemy, the enemy maybe having to roll something to attack the real you compared to the Illusion you.

The thing with Illusions, at least what I've talked to my DM about, is the more convincing I can make the Illusion the more likely the things I'm fighting won't make a save to discern it is an Illusion in the first place. So using your Illusion spells on conjunction with other spells to make your Illusion more real will allow you to get away with a lot, at least with some DM's.

[Dalebert]

Somehow it never occurred to me that Malleable Illusions would apply to things like Disguise Self, Creation, or Seeming. Now I want to make an illusionist!

[Segev]

Glad to have piqued your interest, too!

Now, though, I'm reminded that there are more books out than the core. Are there any good Illusion spells in them?

[Zorku]

I suppose? But... it doesn't say it's moving it through space. Quite the contrary; it's transporting it to the ethereal plane.

And I can't think of any way to define "contents" that doesn't include illusions that are in the box. It doesn't say "objects." It says "contents." The illusions are, undeniably, contained within the box. (Unless you deliberately make them not be, in which case that's your fault.)

I'm kind of late to the conversation, but I'd say this idea was probably trying to apply too much modern physics to the game. With the modern concept of space, hopping into a 'parallel dimension' (or whatever other equivalent to the planes,) is still movement, but just in an unconventional direction. Same deal with the time travel of scifi. Teleportation type effects, as conceived in most fantasy, are sometimes explained in terms abusing scale differences in some parallel (often hellish, or at least more hostile,) world that's just attached enough to our own, but most often they are unexplained. "It works because magic."

For the same reason that you aren't creating a vacuum when you dismiss the chest or nail a creature with the banishment spell, I'd say that the chest does not count as moving.

For those less well versed with physics, I'd probably just try a real life bluff check for this and just try to send your illusions into the ethereal plane like it's a given. If the DM rules on the spot that they don't go with it (why?) then you've still got the option to abuse portable holes and the like. Pretty much everybody has some sense of how an extra-dimensional space won't have that drawback.

[Segev]

I've given this issue some more thought, too, and I think the best way to express my thought on it now are thus:

If I put a bag of gold in a chest, then pick up the chest and move it, the bag of gold moves with the chest because the floor and sides of the chest push it around. It can't go through them, so the bag is moved by them. If I put an illusory bag of gold in such a chest and move the chest, the illusion can stay stationary and "go through" the walls or floor of the chest to do so.

If I put a bag of gold in a Leomund's secret chest, though, and cause it to vanish, the sides and floor of the chest don't do anything to force the bag of gold to move with them. They don't push it around. There's no "going through the walls" that would have to happen to have the bag left behind. The bag goes with the secret chest because magic takes it away to keep it inside the now-ethereal box. The same would happen to the illusory bag of gold. There is no movement of walls for the bag to "go through" to stay put. So, as part of the contents of the chest, the illusory bag vanishes along with it.

[Coliath]

Keeping in the Doctor theme. get misty visions and minor illusion. then You recreate the Weeping Angels. Every time an unsuspecting target blinks you cast the silent image closer. For super creeps make them move and use minor illusion to make 10 rounds of repeat stone grinding noises.

Love your tips here mate.

[Regulas]

It's not malleable but Phantasmal Force tricks are the best. One save and then it's only if they make action-checks to interact they can figure it out, but ideally you shouldn't give them that chance.

Phantasmal force is more or less the only one that forces it's target to believe the reality of the illusion. And that's really the secret to making this spell OP by taking advantage of the fact the subject must accept the reality (in fact it may well be the "strongest" illusion spell in the game for this):

For example: Cast on the boss's chief fighter, create a phantasm of the boss that tells him that the guy that looks like him(the actual real boss) over there is an impostor and he should kill him. The fighter is obliged to believe the phantasm is real! The spell even explicitly states that the subject rationalizes any illogical outcomes. Want to make a phantasm of their dead mother? Well clearly she was resurrected by a cleric!

[SharkForce]

It's not malleable but Phantasmal Force tricks are the best. One save and then it's only if they make action-checks to interact they can figure it out, but ideally you shouldn't give them that chance.

Phantasmal force is more or less the only one that forces it's target to believe the reality of the illusion. And that's really the secret to making this spell OP by taking advantage of the fact the subject must accept the reality (in fact it may well be the "strongest" illusion spell in the game for this):

For example: Cast on the boss's chief fighter, create a phantasm of the boss that tells him that the guy that looks like him(the actual real boss) over there is an impostor and he should kill him. The fighter is obliged to believe the phantasm is real! The spell even explicitly states that the subject rationalizes any illogical outcomes. Want to make a phantasm of their dead mother? Well clearly she was resurrected by a cleric!

no, the subject is required to rationalize away when their senses disagree with actuality (like their hand passing right through where they see a monster). it is not required to believe that an illusion of the boss *is* the boss. it can believe that the illusion is a person that used a disguise kit. it can believe that the illusion is a doppleganger. it can believe that the illusion is the boss's twin brother. or that the illusion is a ghost, based on the fact that nobody else can see it (this will likely take at least a round or two for the minion to realize nobody else can see the boss).

and in any event, it is not remotely compelled to obey orders from the boss, even if it does accept that the illusion is, in fact, the boss (which, as noted above, it is not compelled to do). particularly if it thinks the boss must be influenced by a charm spell or something, because the boss would never let the prisoners go free without a fight.

they are, in fact, *explicitly* allowed to make an investigation check to reveal it as an illusion (though i wouldn't expect a typical minion to have that as their first assumption unless they're expecting an illusionist of some sort, and therefore should be investigating *everything* for inconsistencies, including most of the stuff that is real). the fact that they're allowed to make investigation checks clearly indicates that no, they are not forced to accept the illusion as what it is.

[Regulas]

no, the subject is required to rationalize away when their senses disagree with actuality (like their hand passing right through where they see a monster). it is not required to believe that an illusion of the boss *is* the boss. it can believe that the illusion is a person that used a disguise kit. it can believe that the illusion is a doppleganger. it can believe that the illusion is the boss's twin brother. or that the illusion is a ghost, based on the fact that nobody else can see it (this will likely take at least a round or two for the minion to realize nobody else can see the boss).

and in any event, it is not remotely compelled to obey orders from the boss, even if it does accept that the illusion is, in fact, the boss (which, as noted above, it is not compelled to do). particularly if it thinks the boss must be influenced by a charm spell or something, because the boss would never let the prisoners go free without a fight.

they are, in fact, *explicitly* allowed to make an investigation check to reveal it as an illusion (though i wouldn't expect a typical minion to have that as their first assumption unless they're expecting an illusionist of some sort, and therefore should be investigating *everything* for inconsistencies, including most of the stuff that is real). the fact that they're allowed to make investigation checks clearly indicates that no, they are not forced to accept the illusion as what it is.

I think you just misunderstood the intended effect I was showing. Yes they aren't compelled to do the words word for word but that wasn't the point, the point is that they are forced to accept the phantasm as a real physical thing which means they can't think of it as an illusion or ghost or other such possibility (they could see it as a physical disguise but not an illusionary one as they are forced to accept the phatasm as being real), they see someone who looks and sounds like their boss telling them what to do. If they have a reason to investigate or interact of course they would which is why you don't go and do obvious things like that, but unlike a major image of the boss the possibilities of suspicion are trivial by comparison. Furthermore while they can investigate it, if they fail even once it's highly unlikely they would again, they suspect a disguise or twin? they investigate and fail "no disguise, marks that prove it's the boss" then they would be convinced completely that it was the real boss. What they think of the actual real boss is up to the DM, but the effect remains infinitesimally stronger then other illusions.

[SharkForce]

I think you just misunderstood the intended effect I was showing. Yes they aren't compelled to do the words word for word but that wasn't the point, the point is that they are forced to accept the phantasm as a real physical thing which means they can't think of it as an illusion or ghost or other such possibility (they could see it as a physical disguise but not an illusionary one as they are forced to accept the phatasm as being real), they see someone who looks and sounds like their boss telling them what to do. If they have a reason to investigate or interact of course they would which is why you don't go and do obvious things like that, but unlike a major image of the boss the possibilities of suspicion are trivial by comparison. Furthermore while they can investigate it, if they fail even once it's highly unlikely they would again, they suspect a disguise or twin? they investigate and fail "no disguise, marks that prove it's the boss" then they would be convinced completely that it was the real boss. What they think of the actual real boss is up to the DM, but the effect remains infinitesimally stronger then other illusions.

or, you can just put the boss outside of their immediate reach with a major illusion. then they don't get an initial saving throw, it works on everyone, it never becomes apparent that only they can see the boss (because they aren't the only one who can see the boss), and they still need to spend the same action for the same investigation check against the same DC to tell it's a fake, just the same as if you used phantasmal force.

and no, a failed investigation doesn't mean they find marks identifying the person as definitely being the boss. it just means they still continue to feel contact, even though their hand passes through them, or that they rationalize when an arrow passes right through the person. nothing about phantasmal force says it gives the caster the ability to perfectly duplicate a specific individual down to the tiniest detail including ones they're not aware the individual has, so it doesn't. (also, a ghost that can choose to be only solid for one person doesn't sound terribly unbelievable to me, provided you're in a world where ghosts are actually a real thing).

[Regulas]

or, you can just put the boss outside of their immediate reach with a major illusion. then they don't get an initial saving throw, it works on everyone, it never becomes apparent that only they can see the boss (because they aren't the only one who can see the boss), and they still need to spend the same action for the same investigation check against the same DC to tell it's a fake, just the same as if you used phantasmal force.

and no, a failed investigation doesn't mean they find marks identifying the person as definitely being the boss. it just means they still continue to feel contact, even though their hand passes through them, or that they rationalize when an arrow passes right through the person. nothing about phantasmal force says it gives the caster the ability to perfectly duplicate a specific individual down to the tiniest detail including ones they're not aware the individual has, so it doesn't. (also, a ghost that can choose to be only solid for one person doesn't sound terribly unbelievable to me, provided you're in a world where ghosts are actually a real thing).


Your making a physical thing so to the person it's real and therefore physical. But even aside from that the ghost thing sounds more like DM meta gaming then the likely outcome of this spell.

Lets make it simpler for you: You make a rock appear that jumps up and down. In so far as the person is aware it is a completely and genuinely real rock and if they interact it with their action (and fail there save) they continue to believe it as such, they don't somehow think "oh it's a ghost rock" they think it's a real rock, and outside of their action regardless of what else happens they continue to believe it's a 100% real physical rock. Certainly there would be deception and the like involved for duplicating someone specific but they will still think it's a real person and not some weird ghost person. Unless you're in a world where ghosts are a daily sight or every last person is a mage (when in most settings the party is a rare exception to the average lack of magic) the average person shouldn't be randomly suspecting every random thing is some mystical phenomena, rather that's the kind of DM meta gaming that makes being an illusionist so DM dependant (e.g. NPC's doing things they never ever would because the DM knows it's an illusion). If they are deceived and don't succeed on investigating then yes they should be believing it to be their boss. If you see a person, they convince you they are themselves and then you test it out and they prove that they are themselves, you shouldn't be continuing to magically think "they definitely aren't that person"


Major image is instantly broken by any kind of physical contact whatsoever, furthermore since it only seems real and they are not forced to accept that it is a real thing whatever it is, they have every reason to think its magic you created or an illusion if it just poofs in front of them while you are chanting spells, meaning they don't even necessarily have to investigate it to be able to ignore it, wheras with Phantasmal force they believe it to be a real object and not a conjuring or illusion.

[Saeviomage]

The body parts and snow required for simulacra do not cost anything and are not consumed.

Therefore you can ignore them and instead use a spellcasting focus.

Which means you can alter your simulacrum into any humanoid or beast.

[Saeviomage]

The difference between Minor Illusion (cantrip) & Silent Image (1st level) is that one can move, and the other cannot.

The examples for Minor Illusion are muddy footprints or a chair. Static objects. Meanwhile, silent image states "alter its appearance so that its movements appear natural for the image"

If that paragraph is what it takes to make an animated illusion, then mirage arcane creates static images of ponds, trees that do not move in the wind etc etc, and the line detailing what happens when you separate parts of it has no effect: because you cannot move any component of it. A similar argument applies to hallucinatory terrain.

The clause only exists because these spells specifically affect a volume within range and you can move the location of that volume. The paragraph you refer to is to allow you to do so without having the illusion simply slide from place to place.

[SharkForce]

Your making a physical thing so to the person it's real and therefore physical. But even aside from that the ghost thing sounds more like DM meta gaming then the likely outcome of this spell.

Lets make it simpler for you: You make a rock appear that jumps up and down. In so far as the person is aware it is a completely and genuinely real rock and if they interact it with their action (and fail there save) they continue to believe it as such, they don't somehow think "oh it's a ghost rock" they think it's a real rock, and outside of their action regardless of what else happens they continue to believe it's a 100% real physical rock. Certainly there would be deception and the like involved for duplicating someone specific but they will still think it's a real person and not some weird ghost person. Unless you're in a world where ghosts are a daily sight or every last person is a mage (when in most settings the party is a rare exception to the average lack of magic) the average person shouldn't be randomly suspecting every random thing is some mystical phenomena, rather that's the kind of DM meta gaming that makes being an illusionist so DM dependant (e.g. NPC's doing things they never ever would because the DM knows it's an illusion). If they are deceived and don't succeed on investigating then yes they should be believing it to be their boss. If you see a person, they convince you they are themselves and then you test it out and they prove that they are themselves, you shouldn't be continuing to magically think "they definitely aren't that person"


Major image is instantly broken by any kind of physical contact whatsoever, furthermore since it only seems real and they are not forced to accept that it is a real thing whatever it is, they have every reason to think its magic you created or an illusion if it just poofs in front of them while you are chanting spells, meaning they don't even necessarily have to investigate it to be able to ignore it, wheras with Phantasmal force they believe it to be a real object and not a conjuring or illusion.

- wizards are probably pretty rare. magic stuff? not that rare at all. high elves can all cast cantrips, as can every forest gnome; tieflings and drow are reasonably common, and can cast leveled spells as well. this is not describing a world where nobody is familiar with the idea of magic. "this is something magical" is a perfectly rational reaction in a typical D&D world. i'm not saying the minion absolutely will not believe the illusion is really the boss. i'm saying that if the illusion doesn't act like the boss, they may find a way to rationalize this apparently real thing they're looking at than the way you would like them to.

- thinking the guy is a ghost is ONE of several possible ways it can go wrong. and it also does a perfectly good job of rationalizing why stuff can go through him without touching him, and why nobody else can see the guy. and no, a failed investigation check doesn't mean you think it's the boss, any more than a failed investigation check in a room means you absolutely must be 100% convinced that there is no secret door there. a failed investigation check means you couldn't find anything, not that you are forced to assume there was nothing to find.

- no physical contact is required for someone to shout orders to you from across the room. so i honestly don't care that physical contact breaks it. you proposed using the spell to shout false orders, not to give a massage.

[JackPhoenix]

The body parts and snow required for simulacra do not cost anything and are not consumed.

Therefore you can ignore them and instead use a spellcasting focus.

Which means you can alter your simulacrum into any humanoid or beast.

Which is great, except for the fact that the target of Simulacrum must be within range (touch) for the whole 12 hours of casting.

[Saeviomage]

Which is great, except for the fact that the target of Simulacrum must be within range (touch) for the whole 12 hours of casting.

Well, it doesn't say "you recast the spell" or even "you change the casting parameters of the spell". It says you change the nature of the illusion within it's normal parameters. Precisely what that covers is incredibly vague. If the details of this specific casting of a spell form part of it's normal parameters, then you can't change anything with this feature.

The most straightforward way would be to rule that the feature works as though you recast the spell, but with a duration reduced by the time elapsed, and as a single action. Which means you could turn your simulacrum into someone that you've just touched, but not just anything you feel like. It would also mean you can bring the fixed position illusion spells with you by expending the action when you reach the edge of range.

I guess the alternative is "change the spell to something else that it could have been cast as without varying anything about the casting", which would mean you could turn your simulacrum into anything you touched for the 12 hour casting, and could only move other spells around within a tethered range of the original casting site.

[uzasskolko]

I'm not sure you can use Malleable Illusions with completely audible illusions, like Magic Mouth or audible version of minor illusion or even invisability, as this ability clearly states that you have to SEE the illusion. If you hear illusion or you know it there even if you can control it other way but you can't see it, you screwed. Same with Arcanist's Magic Aura - you can't SEE it. You can detect it (if you gonna waste the spell to do so).

Do you think the wizard have to actually see the effect of illusion, or he just have to be able to see the place, where illusion is?

[Segev]

I'm not sure you can use Malleable Illusions with completely audible illusions, like Magic Mouth or audible version of minor illusion or even invisability, as this ability clearly states that you have to SEE the illusion. If you hear illusion or you know it there even if you can control it other way but you can't see it, you screwed. Same with Arcanist's Magic Aura - you can't SEE it. You can detect it (if you gonna waste the spell to do so).

Do you think the wizard have to actually see the effect of illusion, or he just have to be able to see the place, where illusion is?

I don’t think it comes up; the only purely audible illusion is the audible version of Minor Illusion, and I believe you actually have significant control over the sounds it produces anyway. There’s nothing about prerecorded loops or triggers or the like, and it discusses examples of how you can alter it. If we treat the examples as exhaustive, the spell approaches uselessness due to the ease of it being revealed as fake by its generally unchanging nature, and it’s pretty clearly supposed to handle what ghost sound used to.

As I think every other illusion has visible components, this doesn’t come up.

Well, there’s Phantasmal Force, but you can’t see or hear it unless you cast it in yourself, so the point is moot, there.

[Jacob_Wolf]

First thing, the Eldritch Adept feat, mentioned in OP in Edit 7-14-2020 is now available for picking up in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.

Second thing, I want to discuss one thing with you, as this thread has helped me immensely and I would like to add my bit.

Minor Illusion Material Components.

With Illusory Reality, you can take any object created by your illusions and make it real for one minute.

Like REAL real. Like cannot be dispelled, doesn't go away in antimagic field real.* It's not an illusion for that minute, so you cannot affect it with your illusionist abilities as long as it's made real, but you don't wanna do that anyway.

You want to create an illusion of a material component. Then make it real. Then cast the spell you need the component for. If the component is consumed, no matter, you wouldn't enjoy it for long anyways.

The spell you cast in this way has to have a casting time of less than 1 minute (as you probably cannot finish the spell if your component vanishes).

The ability doesn't state any value limitation and an example is a friggin' bridge, so diamond for Revivify or piece of adamantine for Invulnerability could both be valid options, but that depends on how your DM rules the value. Because if it's by ammount and purity, then you definitely can make that diamond the biggest and purest.

Thoughts?

*there are multiple Sage Advice replies on that matter, but I cannot link stuff here, because I haven't made 10 posts yet.

[Battlebooze]

Some notes on Minor Illusion.

Visually, Minor Illusion can only create an object. The definition of an object should include static objects that appear to be people or creatures, such as stuffed beholders and well dressed and painted mannequin. So you should be able to make a "Person/monster standing stone still in the corner." with Minor Illusion, as long as it fits in a five foot cube.

Also handy, Minor Illusion doesn't require a vocal component, but can create speech at range. Even if you're stuck in an area of silence you should be able to cast Minor Illusion and talk to someone outside the Silence. You wouldn't be able to hear them back of course, but it's something. Minor Illusion should work for simple Ventriloquism.


"It can be your voice, someone else's voice, a lion's roar, a beating of drums, or any other sound you choose. The sound continues unabated throughout the duration, or you can make discrete sounds at different times before the spell ends."

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: the greatest trick the Necromancer ever pulled, was convincing the world the Thread Necromancy rule didn't exist.