The Fighter of Tomorrow: Making an awesome melee combatant using new resources

[Thealtruistorc]

So a lot of people have been talking about books like the weapon master's guide and melee tactics toolbox, discussing how these splatbooks have changed the way people build and use martial classes. As I am in the process of building a fighter character for an upcoming adventure, I am wondering just what many of these boons are and how I can best make use of them. What feats, items, archetypes, or other resources have helped to augment martial combat in recent years, and what are the most effective builds now? Thanks in advance.

[Azoth]

If you can use DSP material then combining Myrmidon + Lore Warden + Martial Master is just sickeningly good on a fighter. Changes you to a partial initiator (6th level maneuvers) natively, gives you 6+Int skills per level with a much better list, It also allows you to snag whatever combat method feats best serve the fight you are in or other martial maneuvers at a moment's notice.

Need to engage enemies at range? Snag up archery feats with martial flexibility to be an archer. Need to suddenly heal yourself or an ally? Snag Advanced Study and Extra readied maneuver to pull from Silver Crane and heal while smashing an enemy in the face.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm going to intentionally avoid suggesting Path of War, because access to third-party content in general is far from guaranteed, let alone access to entire third-party subsystems.

My favorite combination of Fighter archetypes is Eldritch Guardian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/eldritch-guardian-fighter-archetype) Martial Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) Mutation Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mutation-warrior) Fighter VMC [Barbarian or Bard] - UMD as a class skill, a familiar, better Will saves, in-combat versatility, self-buffs, and limited-duration flight (because a good Mutation Warrior always takes Wings eventually) go a long way towards making a character interesting and effective. Alternately, Lore Warden Martial Master Fighter VMC [Wizard, Bard, or Barbarian] is pretty solid if you insist on sticking Lore Warden in there, but I'm personally not a fan of the archetype. The two extra Knowledge skills seems to be its main draw, but a familiar with the Sage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/sage-familiar-archetype) archetype can have three Knowledge skills, with a Bardic Knowledge equivalent to boot.

[AoiEMT]

If you can use DSP material then combining Myrmidon + Lore Warden + Martial Master is just sickeningly good on a fighter...

Make sure you clear it with your GM as two of those archetypes modify the same thing (class skills) and thus do not stack.


That being said if you can get that It sounds AMAZING.

[Tuvarkz]

Make sure you clear it with your GM as two of those archetypes modify the same thing (class skills) and thus do not stack.


That being said if you can get that It sounds AMAZING.

Actually, they stack. Lore Warden doesn't have a line that changes class skills. They have an ability that gives them more class skills.


Scholastic (Ex)

Lore wardens gain 2 additional skill ranks each level. These ranks must be spent on Intelligence-based skills. All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.

This ability replaces the lore warden’s proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.

Nowhere in there it says: "This ability modifies the fighter's class skills" or something similar.
EDIT: Also, honestly not a big fan of Martial Master myself-Weapon Training group replacers are just amazing, and you can always get the Abundant Tactics feat with Barroom Brawler, for 3 daily uses at level 9 (Or 5 if you got Duelist Gloves)

[Serafina]

Sadly, any and all archetypes that modify weapon training are now effectively traps, since they bar access to Advanced Weapon Training.

However, you can get a flexible feat via Barroom Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/barroom-brawler-combat), and if you choose Abundant Tactics you can use it multiple times per day.
Now granted, that can't replicate the ability to go down a feat chain like Martial Flexibility can, so it's not quite the same thing.

Advanced Weapon Training also allows very nice access to most feats in the Weapon Masters Handbook, since a lot of them are of the "work on a chosen type" category.
Of particular note and IMO very necessary for the Fighter are Cut from the Air, Smash from the Air and Spellcut. The former two allow you to intercept any ranged attacks (including spells) with your attacks of opportunity, the last one allows you to use you BAB in place of your saving throw (well, except for area-of-effect spells that don't call for a reflex save). It's only once per round, but it basically takes care of your poor Will and Reflex save.

[Triskavanski]

Not Any and All archetypes that modify it.

Dragoon, Weapon Master, Unarmed, Ustalavic - These four here at least still count as the class feature.


aldori Sword lord and Ronedelero Duelist still gives it to you at level 9
Corsair gives you access to a very odd weapon group. The Pirate weapon group, which is by far one of the most versitile groups, followed by Monk.


I've got one build that uses the Armed Bravery advance weapon training to add my bravery bonus to my will saves. Combine that with some of the accidental god feats like courage in a bottle (If you're intoxicated your bravery bonus goes up by 2) And Drunken Brawler (Take a drink, -2 to reflex, +2 to Fort/Will Saves and Temp Hp equal to class level.) And Fortified drinker (After drinking, 1 hour of +2 vs mind effecting spells)

You wind up with easily having a will save of around 8-ish or so, 10 vs mind effecting spells, before resistance bonuses, stats and the like at level 6.


Then there is one where you can add your weapon training to your reflex saves. Combine that with the dueling gloves, and you're looking at +3 at level 6, or +4 at level 9.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, they stack. Lore Warden doesn't have a line that changes class skills. They have an ability that gives them more class skills.
Sorry, but per a recent FAQ that does count. What matters is whether an ability actually adds to or modifies a class feature (including its skill list), not whether the archetype contains the explicit text "this ability modifies..."

[Extra Anchovies]

Sadly, any and all archetypes that modify weapon training are now effectively traps, since they bar access to Advanced Weapon Training.

I don't get your reasoning here. Versatile Training is certainly nice, and Fighter's Reflexes and Trained Initiative are both decent. I'm personally not a fan of Martial Master, so I'd probably keep Weapon Training and use your suggestion of Barroom Brawler and Abundant Tactics instead, but that hardly makes trading away Weapon Training a trap. At most, it makes it worth keeping in certain builds.

Also, any fighter of 5th level or higher can take Martial Focus and Advanced Weapon Training (the feat) to get access to Advanced Weapon Training (the class feature), along with the weapon mastery feats. It's kind of strange that Paizo gave a cookie to stock Fighters and let every other fighter steal that cookie away in the same book.

Regardless, thanks for directing my attention to the Weapon Master's Handbook - some of this stuff is actually really nice. I'm tempted to give a Fighter a try in my next PF game.

[Florian]

@Extra Anchovies:

It´s not strange at all, considering that they did´t want to lock out all already existing Fighters from using the material in the book. Retraining simply is not a standard option at most tables and it would be harsh indeed to ditch an existing character.

Besides that, I think that the Fighter class now has moved a long way away from being a dumb beatstick without any options. Sure, still no spells and item-dependent, but against regular Bestiary monsters, pretty much peak performance.

The thing is, Fighters and the rules components they build upon have a bad rep. AC being useless as a high-level defense, lack of decent will save, lack of skill points and all that.

What you want to use is a no-archetype Fighter and VMC Barbarian, decent INT and high DEX to pick some Dirty Tricks and Kitsune Style feat chain, TWF and stuff like Disruptive and Witch Hunter, rounding it up with Armoured Bravery and sprinkle it with Barroom Brawler and Abundant Tactics.

You have no Pounce but you start with a Dirty Trick charge anyway and then it´s overkill time.

[Serafina]

*snip*Oooh, that should allow some fun builds!

Level 1: Replace your shield-proficiency with Divine Fighting Technique (Cayden Cailean): Blade and Tankard. Now you can treat a tankard as a light mace, and can make dirty trick maneuvers or drink it's contents in place of making a melee attack with it, including during two-weapon fighting. This is especially nice since it essentially brings your main trick (boosting your will saves via drinking, and splashing ominous liquids in enemy faces) online at level 1. Sadly, you can't do the replacement as a Lore Warden

We then go for normal two-weapon fighting. At level 5, we pick the Hammer weapon group - despite the name of the feat, we can now just fight with a light mace (which is a light weapon) and our tankard, so we get the Weapon Training bonus as normal. Though you could also come up with a martial or exotic light weapon that fits in the hammer-group, if you want something better, or just decide "screw it", never attack with your off-hand tankard and just go for whatever weapon you'd normally want (as long as it's a rapier or light). In that case, you don't have to go for two-weapon fighting.
And of course we pick the Advanced Weapon Training feat at level 5 as well, and pick Armed Bravery.

In addition, you can throw in Dirty Fighting feats. Dirty Trick Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat) from level 11 onward is particularly good - especially if you can make two dirty tricks per round. With Blade and Tankard and Quick Dirty Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-dirty-trick-combat), you can do just that. Assuming you can beat the enemy CMD, this basically means you get to Daze the enemy each turn (assuming you get to make an attack).
Throw in Kitsune Style to apply two Dirty Tricks with each one too, if you can.

And reliably beating the CMD should be reasonably possible. At 11th level, you can get +6 from Lore Warden, +2 from Improved Dirty Trick, +2 from Greater Dirty Trick and +2 from Blade and Tankard for a solid +12 to your CMB. You get another +2 at level 15 too. Oh and +4 from Flanking with Dirty Fighting.


Now granted, this has the slight problem that your main trick hinges on throwing liquid in the enemies face.
First, that somewhat limits the reasonably available tricks. Blinded is good though and explicitly possible. Once you get Superior Dirty Trick, you can just go for Dazzled first and upgrade it to Dazed - or, depending on the liquid (strong alcohol can totally work there) you go for sickened and upgrade it to nauseated.
Second, your tankard will obviously be empty after that. Well, at 11th level you can refill it as a swift action (though I am not sure whether it'd be possible to do that in the middle of a full-round attack?). But better yet, there's the Fighting Tankard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/fighting-tankard) (which for some weird reason is a light hammer, not a light mace?). Simply get a tankard like it with extradimensional spaces, and you're good to go for the whole fight.


Now I'm obviously not saying that this is the best build ever.
And with Combat Stamina in the game, the increased debuff aspect of this works with just Quick Dirty Trick, so the Tankard isn't even necessary.
But it might definetly be a fun build. Good damage and HP (as usual for the fighter), combined with actually having a good will save and a very effective combat debuff - plus of course the aspect of playing a constantly drinking fighter, if that's something you'd like.

Swashbuckler 1/Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) 11
Race: Any you want that isn't horrible for Fighters really. Gnomes get a trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/prankster-gnome) that adds +1 to Dirty Tricks, though that basically only makes up for the size-difference.
Ability Scores: Good Dexterity, good Constitution. Decent Charisma will fit the character and work well. Don't dump Strength too much, you don't get Dex-to-Damage right away.
Traits: Fortified Drinker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/fortified-drinker), Prankster (if Gnome)
Feats: Blade and Tankard in place of Buckler Proficiency
1: Two-Weapon Fighting, 2: Endurance, 3: Improved Dirty Trick, 3: Kitsune Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kitsune-style-combat-style), 5: Kitsune Tricks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kitsune-tricks-combat-style), 5: Drunken Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/drunken-brawler-combat), 6: Advanced Weapon Training (Armed Bravery), 7: Courage in a Bottle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/courage-in-a-bottle), 7: Greater Dirty Trick, 9: Combat Reflexes, 9: Kitsune Vengeance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/kitsune-vengeance-combat-style), 11: Quick Dirty Trick, 11: Dirty Trick Master
Class Features: Pick the Light Blades category. At level 9, you pick Trained Grace if you want to extra damage (+4 at this level).
Magic Items: get a Tankard with extradimensional space. You might want an Agile weapon too.
Skills: You get at least 4 per level, 5 if you use FCB, more if you're human or go for Int 12 (you don't need to though). You'll probably want Acrobatics and one social skill (Bluff fits well), at least two points have to go into Knowledge-skills though.
Further Build: More Fighter for more feats, though there aren't terribly many that advance your build further. More Swashbuckler works well too.

Total capabilities: Dex-Based Fighter that can parry enemy attacks. Gets +12 to CMB with Dirty Tricks, and can perform two Dirty Tricks (three with Combat Stamina) per round, plus in place of AoOs. If you hit an enemy twice with a Dirty Trick, they can be dazed for several rounds. You also get +6 to your Will-saves, with an additional +2 vs. mind-affecting - at this level, this is a nice +9(11) plus magic items.

Roleplaying: 19th-century college stundent. Duels, Drinks and through some miracle of occasional study, some knowledge skills. Or just a dedicated follower of Cayden Cailean.

[Florian]

@Serafina:

A case of "Huh?".
With the Armor Master Handbook on the horizon, I would´t use Lore Warden anymore, not knowing what goodies will come out for the Armor Training class feature. If the stuff is en par with what the Weapon Master Handbook gave us, I´d be averse to trading that class feature away.

I also don´t see any meaningful ways to capitalize on those AoOs here. Either you work towards the Strike Back feat for lvl12 or you can ditch Combat Reflexes.

[Tuvarkz]

Sorry, but per a recent FAQ that does count. What matters is whether an ability actually adds to or modifies a class feature (including its skill list), not whether the archetype contains the explicit text "this ability modifies..."

Mind giving me a link? Would like to be able to discuss this with the DSP devs for an emergency edit because otherwise OD warders are not going to be able to archetype with the older archetypes.
EDIT: Nvm, found it.

[AoiEMT]

EDIT: Nvm, found it.

Would you mind shooting it my way? I got super excited after your post and I'm wondering if it's legal now.

Also that would definitely make path of war classes have a harder time stacking as the majority of archetypes would change class skills through the addition of new disciplines.

[Triskavanski]

Éibhear Ormond (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=711713)

Thats my drunken brawler. The game has gestalt, so I went with kinetist. But the Kinetist could be easily dropped and the build loses very little of anything.

I decided to go with close weapons, as the takard is hardly going to be the primary weapon, rather the weapon would be a cestus on the main hand which eventually might be replaced by other weapons of the close catagory. However this allows use to be 'wielding' the cestus at all times.

At 9th level I'm picking up the advance training that increases my Reflex or lets me use the sacred weapon damage type for the cestus so I'm not limited to such a small die. At 10th then I'll either pick up the alternate replacement method, or the other option I didn't pick up.

is the character high in damage? Dropping kinetist, no, not at all. even with the kinetist its still pretty low damage. But is he fun? I'm quite certain he will be. I love jack of all trade type characters


EDIT: Somethings to consider though is Spell Cut (Use BAB for saves) can be pretty trappy. Your BAB doesn't become the base of the save. Rather it becomes a replacement for the whole thing. Stats/Magic/etc. All of it.

So The drunken wonder style character might have a very bad time with it actually since he's getting armed bravery, drunken brawler, courage in a bottle and fortified drinker to push his will save up crazy high (especially for a fighter) then the fighter's reflex would help the lower reflex saves

However Cut from the Air/Smash from the sky are still pretty good options.

[Tuvarkz]

Would you mind shooting it my way? I got super excited after your post and I'm wondering if it's legal now.

Also that would definitely make path of war classes have a harder time stacking as the majority of archetypes would change class skills through the addition of new disciplines.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9thg
Here, see the class skill part.

[AoiEMT]

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9thg
Here, see the class skill part.


Well that is pretty cut and dry. Oh well. At least I don't play PFS so I can always have a chat with my GM.

[Anlashok]

I assume they're referring to a different FAQ though, because nothing in that one would bar lore warden from stacking as they do completely and utterly different things.

Scholastic would only stop stacking if the archetype changed weapon or armor proficiencies.

[Florian]

I assume they're referring to a different FAQ though, because nothing in that one would bar lore warden from stacking as they do completely and utterly different things.

Scholastic would only stop stacking if the archetype changed weapon or armor proficiencies.

Look at the archetype section of the FAQ. It dances around the topic a bit, but it actually does explain that everything that modifies core aspects of a class should be taken into account.

Now the Lore Warden archetype shows its age and you can easily see that it differs from later established design patterns by the way it handles those knowledge skills and skill points. You do gain them via Scholastic and they modify that class, the class features is there to handle how you spent them. That, in this way, is something that other mechanics have superseded in the later run of this edition.

[Triskavanski]

Now abundant tactics works with all combat feats that are limited times per day. So the Rai says. The Raw actually is kinda a bit odd. Because anything else would say "Select a combat feat with a limited number of uses per day." but it never has you select a feat.

If your GM is on the Rai, then Abudnant tactics is great. If its Raw and enforcing that you have to select one, then it gets kinda crappy.


There is a set of high wisdom feats out there called meditation feats, Combat Meditation, Slow Time, Perfect awareness are all combat feats with limited uses per day.

Slow Time is unique in that its an EX Haste, which could be useful for someone who's fighting in a no-magic zone.