[3.5] Pure Monk 20

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

Just a little TO exercise - if you had to build a Monk 20 (no multiclassing, no PrC, no gestalt, no Swordsage), how would you go about optimizing it?

You can assume all ACFs are on the table, along with racial sub levels and also UA class variants.

Being Monk 20, no LA and/or RHD races, please. Lesser Planetouched and anthro animals with no RHD or LA are kosher. I might do a level-buyoff version later, as well.

Try to avoid Dragon Mag sources; and no homebrew or third party materials, please.

Lastly, no infinite loops or Candle of Invocation type shenanigans.

Can you make the Monk rise above it's tier within these restrictions?

Cheers - T

[Âmesang]

I had plans for playing as a Sūn Wùkōng-inspired monk (built off of awakened animal and prestiging into fist of the forest and initiate of the draconic mysteries, though), which would include a number of alternate class features: spell reflection from Complete Mage, prayerful meditation and holy strike from Complete Champion, and water step from Stormwrack.

Water step replaces slow fall so Sun was going to wear a ring of feather falling, and holy strike was due to either initiate or fist of the forest also granting ki strike (I believe, instead of having ki strike magic/lawful/adamantine, the character would effectively have ki strike magic/holy/lesser ghost touch).

Of course you could still grab holy strike and just have someone cast permanent (greater) magic fang on you.

[Eldariel]

I mean, yeah, you can do a fair bit. Level 20 is actually less horrible for Monk than level 1 since you at least have feats and magic items and your scaling numbers (mostly Unarmed Strike and Flurry) have scaled.

Wild Monk is out with Dragon Magazine content but you can get Invisible Fist and on these levels, you have access to a bunch of size increases complete with the 2d10 dice so you can get fairly good DPS. It's always possible to acquire spell slots and then spells (e.g. the Heighten Spell + Earth Spell + Sanctum Spell + Extra Slot setup with Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle; you might need to acquire slots to make that work but it's doable with feat or races), which would make this too easy as we could just cast Shapechange which alone would make us a probably-Tier-1 class depending on the exact rulings on what powers we can use.

If trying to stick within the spirit of the challenge and making it a Monk as opposed to using feats to circumvent being a Monk, we should probably start by picking up Invisible Fist ACFs from Exemplars of Evil. That adds a fair bit of versatility to the standard shell and makes hitting some enemies much easier. +1 Valorous [SomethingToNegateDamageReduction] Necklace of Natural Attacks for the Unarmed Strikes and using Soulbind feats to bind the Sphinx Claws allows for Pouncing which makes it a lot less horrid already. We can further acquire a magic item of Diamond Mind to get us Bounding Assault for extra mobility in conjunction with this.

We're getting free Improved Trip so we can fit that into the attack scheme and we can get some easily accessible size increases in Improved Natural Attack and perhaps Empty Hand Mastery [Oriental Adventures] - though Empty Hand Mastery does cost us 5 feats (admittedly some of which could easily be acquired through Monk bonus feats). It's alluring to just get magic items for Giant Size and Greater Mighty Wallop and call it a day, admittedly. That would certainly solve any damage issues we might be having, but feels a bit cheap. There are also the aberrant feats which are a bit unsightly but efficient. There's some standard item of Alter Self at least so that would make getting base Large pretty easy. Further, if we make our hero Kalashtar, we could use the Ectoplasmic Fist. Those 4 together would get us to Colossal, which is admittedly a nice starting point. Alter Self would also get us Natural Attacks which can be pretty nice on a shell that already carries Pounce. Flight should probably be natural as it's just inconvenient to have to rely on items for that, but there are races that accomplish that.


Defensively, aside from Invisibility and good saves, it comes down to magic items mostly. Monk has the edge of getting a lot of stats to AC by default but the disadvantage of having to invest in a lot of items to actually get any meaningful mileage out of that. Luck rerolls are a must and aside from that, stuff like Scarab of Invulnerability and contingent revives seem trivial. Darkstalker is obvious as well as high Hide and Move Silently. Without LA, we can't access racial sources of Hide in Blind Sight but we can always use an item like Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis to achieve that, albeit the limited version. Planar Touchstone tied to The Veil would also work. Both are restricted but about the best we can get.

Again, Superior Invisibility added on top of that would make life extremely simple but that's not something we have access to unless we just super-itemize everything (which makes life too easy). We could pick up a simple form of Mind Blank from a Legacy weapon relatively cheap; a gauntlet, a dagger or something you'd never actually use but could carry around. Especially the 17-20 abilities are quite useful.


Of course, it's possible to use Vow of Poverty and then Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle to gain an obscene amount of feats and not be constrained by the Vow but that might not be the kind of optimization you had in mind...? It would make getting everything you want rather easy, at any rate.

Overall, yeah, you can make a level 20 anything do a lot of good with magic items and feats, even if you refrain from some of the stronger options. Monk itself offers the unarmed damage dice and flurry and reasonable base saves, but most of the ACFs aside from Invisible Fists and the feats you can pick up are rather uninspiring. There's some decent stuff but nothing that actually redeems the class. You can trade like Still Mind away for maybe Lay on Hands from Broken One [Champions of Valor] or Slow Fall for something from Stormwrack but it really doesn't make that much of a different in the grand scheme of things.

[Psionic Dog]

No can do.

Assuming equal levels of optimization a L20 monk will never overcome high level optimized spell casting, and with enough optimization most anything can keep up with an unoptimized high tier baseline. At low levels when traditional spells are weak and flight is rare you can stack flaws and templates to build an extended reach grapple master named Mr Huggs. But at L20? I guess you could put the bonus speed to add spring attacks to the usual uber charge cheese, but everything else would be gear/feet optimization available to any class.

[Telonius]

No can do.

Assuming equal levels of optimization a L20 monk will never overcome high level optimized spell casting, and with enough optimization most anything can keep up with an unoptimized high tier baseline. At low levels when traditional spells are weak and flight is rare you can stack flaws and templates to build an extended reach grapple master named Mr Huggs. But at L20? I guess you could put the bonus speed to add spring attacks to the usual uber charge cheese, but everything else would be gear/feet optimization available to any class.

True, but the challenge isn't to make it compete with Tier 1's, just to rise above Tier 5. Tier 4's description:


Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength.

That should probably be doable.

[Psionic Dog]

Eh, monks are almost Tier 4 anyway, at least by the alternate Tier 4 definition: "or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining."

It is the Tier 3 bar I am having trouble figuring out how to clear.

[Darrin]

Can you make the Monk rise above it's tier within these restrictions?


No.

But this might be occasionally not boring:

Race: Azurin
Overwhelming Attack Monk 20
Feats: IUS (1st), Power Attack (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws (1st), Travel Devotion (1st), Improved Bull Rush (2nd), Leap of the Heavens (3rd), Open Least Chakra: Hands (6th), Improved Trip (6th), Mantis Leap (9th), Leap Attack (12th), Travel Devotion x2 (15th), Shock Trooper (18th).

At 9th level, you get two move actions and a swift action that turn into three Pounce attacks. At 12th, we can move back 20' and leap forward 20' as a move action (or swift with Travel Devotion) and get double damage from Leap Attack. Add some more Travel Devotion at 15th, and 18th can be Shock Trooper or Travel Devotion x3. Hmm... might want Knock-Down in there somewhere. Flying Kick could also be juicy, if you could get +1d12 on all your unarmed attacks.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mantis Leap (9th)
Wait, I've never heard of that feat before but does it let you charge as a move action? Daaang...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tippy had a thread about this some time ago, and several people did admirably. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial)

Now, it's not quite as restrictive -- the contestants could use up to three levels of non-monk, after all, though the goal was a lot more difficult -- but a few builds can be done at flat monk easily, just without a few extra options.

It's just too bad the contest was never finished.

[Darrin]

Wait, I've never heard of that feat before but does it let you charge as a move action? Daaang...

Sword & Fist. It's a bit more straightforward than Battle Jump/Roof-Jumper abuse, but requires 7 levels of monk. Turns any action that involves making a "normal Jump check" into a charge attack.

[Extra Anchovies]

Wait, I've never heard of that feat before but does it let you charge as a move action? Daaang...

It's from Sword and Fist, so its availability is far from a guarantee - but yes, it lets you charge as a move action. How it does that is a little wonky.

What the feat lets you do is this:

Designate an opponent who is within the maximum distance you can reach with a successful Jump check. Make a normal Jump check; if your check is successful, you can make a normal charge attack against the opponent you designated as part of the same action. If your charge attack is successful, you inflict normal damage, plus your Strength modifier multiplied by 2.
This was back in 3.0, where Jump had maximum distances - six times your height for a running long jump, or twice your height for a standing long jump. The second sentence is unclear if you actually jump as part of the charge, or if your character just looks at the distance, thinks "I can make that", and just hoofs it anyways. So you can use this to charge as a move action.

However, this was back in 3.0 - where a charge was normally a standard action, but otherwise functioned as it does in 3.5. Personally that alone is enough to convince me to put Mantis Leap into the outdated 3.0 content ban-bin.

Interestingly enough, not only does it require you to be a monk, but it requires you to have 7 levels of monk - so a character who meets the prerequisites ASAP still has to wait two levels after they do so to actually pick up the feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Interestingly enough, not only does it require you to be a monk, but it requires you to have 7 levels of monk - so a character who meets the prerequisites ASAP still has to wait two levels after they do so to actually pick up the feat.There are ways around that little snafu. Taking Dragonwrought as a kobold can (as with everything else) smooth the way a bit. Take the wyrm of war draconic archetype from Dragons of Eberron, and you can get a feat at level 8 that you should be able to use to take Mantis Leap.

[nedz]

Yeah sure, just maximise your UMD and buy lots of partially charged wands.

Surely I didn't need to put this in blue.

[Extra Anchovies]

There are ways around that little snafu. Taking Dragonwrought as a kobold can (as with everything else) smooth the way a bit. Take the wyrm of war draconic archetype from Dragons of Eberron, and you can get a feat at level 8 that you should be able to use to take Mantis Leap.

Or just stick two levels of something else at the start of your build - being Small really hurts your jump checks in 3.0, because maximum distance (and thus Mantis Leap range) scales with height. Actual distance jumped also scaled with movement speed - a character with a speed of 40 feet would roll a jump check, determine their distance by using the appropriate formula in the table in the PHB (a minimum distance plus 1 foot per x points over 10), and then multiply it by 4/3 (40 feet character speed over 30 feet assumed speed).

Also being Small means dealing with the fiddly weapon size rules - Small weapons (like short swords) are one-handed weapons for you but light weapons for Medium characters, while Medium weapons are two-handed weapons for you and one-handed weapons for Medium cha—AGH NO STOP

...yeah, 3.5 is definitely an improvement on 3.0.

[Eldariel]

No.

But this might be occasionally not boring:

Race: Azurin
Overwhelming Attack Monk 20
Feats: IUS (1st), Power Attack (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws (1st), Travel Devotion (1st), Improved Bull Rush (2nd), Leap of the Heavens (3rd), Open Least Chakra: Hands (6th), Improved Trip (6th), Mantis Leap (9th), Leap Attack (12th), Travel Devotion x2 (15th), Shock Trooper (18th).

At 9th level, you get two move actions and a swift action that turn into three Pounce attacks. At 12th, we can move back 20' and leap forward 20' as a move action (or swift with Travel Devotion) and get double damage from Leap Attack. Add some more Travel Devotion at 15th, and 18th can be Shock Trooper or Travel Devotion x3. Hmm... might want Knock-Down in there somewhere. Flying Kick could also be juicy, if you could get +1d12 on all your unarmed attacks.

If going the Monky way, I'd probably go with the size stacking for the damage instead of the standard Charge Power Attack multipliers (of course, both use the total Charge multipliers). It's generally competitive once you get above Colossal and there's a fair few ways of going about it. It's one of the few relevant class features of the class so if the point is to build an "A-Game Monk", it feels natural to build around the few things it has.

I think it's also possible to get some decent defenses in the mix, though mostly not class-based (to y'know, make the build slightly less reliant on alpha-killing everything). E.g. something stealth-based with Darkstalker + Hide in Plain Sight coupled with e.g. Regeneration + non-lethal immunity or ability to act at N non-lethal gives you some decent overlapping defenses. You can at the very least achieve some degree of difficulty of detection and some degree of resistances, immunities and highish saves.

It's of course possible to use the Monk bonus feats bypassing requirements to get the Strength-based feats while going e.g. Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade for a Dex-focused build (Dex has the edge of pumping Initiative, stealth stats and touch AC), though that'd of course require giving up Trip - sorta sucks since Trip is one of the few ways the class can do something other than try to hit things dead. There's also the Wis-based Intuitive Attack/Stunning Fist-build able to make some use of that spectrum of Monk feats tho that needs to do even more work to get decent enough damage to expect to punch things out. Ultimately one probably doesn't have the resources for more than couple of reasonable paths of attack and they're mostly quite redundant. It's hard for Monk to graduate the "Hit it 'til it dies, out of luck if it doesn't work"-hole.

[Jormengand]

Ehh, Necklace of Natural Weapons and Word Given Form Mastery abuse? Oh look at me, I can't be targeted. Oh look at me, I can throw myself as part of my attack. Oh look at me, I don't need to make jump checks because my full attack can move me like 500 feet or something. Or just grab stuff that makes you good at diplomacy and pretend you're a bard? I know that your class doesn't much help you on that one, but shh.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ehh, Necklace of Natural Weapons and Word Given Form Mastery abuse? Oh look at me, I can't be targeted. Oh look at me, I can throw myself as part of my attack. Oh look at me, I don't need to make jump checks because my full attack can move me like 500 feet or something.
Word Given Form for total concealment against one target I get, and I'm guessing you're using RAW abuse to put Throwing on your fists, but where are you getting the rest?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Word Given Form for total concealment against one target I get, and I'm guessing you're using RAW abuse to put Throwing on your fists, but where are you getting the rest?Throwing, distance, the accuracy spell, and Far Shot all stack, allowing you to throw your body (as any part of your body can be used with an unarmed strike, so why not throw it all?) out to 5x your range increment, which allows you to bypass Jump checks for most things, as well as gives you a massive speed increase if you aim for a 5' space (which is DC 5, I think).

And that's for just one attack.

[Jormengand]

Throwing, distance, the accuracy spell, and Far Shot all stack, allowing you to throw your body (as any part of your body can be used with an unarmed strike, so why not throw it all?) out to 5x your range increment, which allows you to bypass Jump checks for most things, as well as gives you a massive speed increase if you aim for a 5' space (which is DC 5, I think).

And that's for just one attack.

Yeah, basically this.

EDIT: Also, throwing on your fists isn't RAW abuse; it's actually given as an example of something you could use the NoNW for.

[illyahr]

Oh, wow. Tough challenge. Too bad it's 3.5 only. The Unchained Monk from Pathfinder Unchained actually goes a long way and moves it up to Tier 4 without too much shenanigans.

Best that I can think of is to get Spring Attack and Improved Trip and make an Uber-trip build. There's a Vile feat (forget what it's called) that increases your reach by 5' so that gives you some range. Due to RAW shenanigans, you can trip flying creatures to immediately drop them to the ground and, since you can trip as an attack action, you can flurry-trip if you end up surrounded.

[Âmesang]

I kind of imagine "throwing" natural attacks (at least unarmed strikes) are like punching/kicking the air and sending out an air pressure (http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/pages/final/0043.png) to hit the foe… instead of literally throwing body parts around.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I kind of imagine "throwing" natural attacks (at least unarmed strikes) are like punching/kicking the air and sending out an air pressure (http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/pages/final/0043.png) to hit the foe… instead of literally throwing body parts around.So, Saitama instead of Liu Kang?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, basically this.

EDIT: Also, throwing on your fists isn't RAW abuse; it's actually given as an example of something you could use the NoNW for.
Wow, that's just... weird.

[Telonius]

If you're going for maximum weird, add Collision. Not for the mechanics (+5 damage) but for the visual (increase their own mass at the end point of each swing or shot).

... that could go very wrong, very quickly.

[Troacctid]

So, Saitama instead of Liu Kang?

I'd go with Dhalsim.

Isn't there a rule that making an unarmed strike doesn't extend your space into the target's square, or something? So if you have natural reach and I don't, and I'm 10 feet away from you, I can't ready an action to attack your hand when you punch me, that sort of thing.

I mean it's RAW-illegal to use your whole body as an unarmed strike all at once, so I suppose it's a moot point.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I mean it's RAW-illegal to use your whole body as an unarmed strike all at once, so I suppose it's a moot point.No it's not. It's called a 'body slam.'

[Âmesang]

I suppose more Kenshi Takahashi (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlpd0Whi24Q) than Liu Kang, though Kenshi certainly took levels in Psionic Fist. Though that reminds me of wanting to create a "blind master" type with the Blindsight, 5-Ft. Radius feat; just need a way to increase the range without becoming a deity. :smalltongue:


If you're going for maximum weird, add Collision. Not for the mechanics (+5 damage) but for the visual (increase their own mass at the end point of each swing or shot).

... that could go very wrong, very quickly.
It's changing mass, not volume. Unless the monk is pulling some sort of Superman/Flash black hole-like infinite mass punch. :smalleek:

[Troacctid]

No it's not. It's called a 'body slam.'

Quote for me the rule that allows this? Because I'm pretty certain you can't do it without a special feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Quote for me the rule that allows this? Because I'm pretty certain you can't do it without a special feat.It's called Improved Unarmed Strike.

[Jormengand]

Quote for me the rule that allows this? Because I'm pretty certain you can't do it without a special feat.

"A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons."

Any attack, body slam or no, which is made by attacking without weapons is an unarmed strike.

Also, the fact that you are specified to be able to attack with "Punches, kicks and head butts", and a flying kick (or flying headbutt?) is a thing, there's no reason you can't. It's like saying "Tell me what says that you can throw longswords". Well, okay, there's nothing that says you can throw longswords specifically, but there are rules that tell you you can throw things, and no exception made for longswords. Similarly, an unarmed strike is a strike that is unarmed, and there's nothing saying that it has to be made without launching yourself, notwithstanding the fact that the NoNW specifically endorses a throwing UAS.

[Troacctid]

It's called Improved Unarmed Strike.
Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't say anything about body slams. Perhaps you're thinking of Crush, which is considered not an unarmed attack but rather its own unique action.


Similarly, an unarmed strike is a strike that is unarmed, and there's nothing saying that it has to be made without launching yourself, notwithstanding the fact that the NoNW specifically endorses a throwing UAS.
No, but there are rules for movement. Moving up to your speed takes a move action, for example. An attack action, by default, does not cause you to leave your square, and the unarmed strike rules don't appear to offer any exception to this.

Edit: Also, if you're talking about a full attack, the rules are very explicit in saying you cannot launch yourself more than 5 feet.

[WhamBamSam]

Taking a bit of a left-turn. I'm assuming Dragon Compendium is okay, even if Dragon Magazine isn't. I'm also using flaws, though it would only cost you Spirited Charge to get rid of them. Conversely, with two more feats (Stunning Mastery and Unorthodox Flurry (Shortsword)) from somewhere and a Morphing Sunblade, you can get another 'doubling' for a total of 4x damage as you'll have a lance that you can wield as a special monk weapon and make stunning attacks with. If there's a melee Druid or other shapeshifter in the party you can get one of those feats by ditching Wild Cohort.

Lupin Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Planar Monk 20
1. Wild Cohort, IUS, Stunning Fist, Mounted Combat, Pharaoh's Fist
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Pain Touch
6. Improved Trip, Knock-down
9. Snap Kick
12. Planar Touchstone (Oxyrhynicus [sp?])
15. Ride-By Attack
18. Spirited Charge

A mounted character has a full round's worth of actions, despite being limited to one attack, and don't need to spend those actions on movement. Ride up to someone and Decisive Strike them. Snap Kick then breaks the 1 attack limit by specificity trumping general, and once it's become a round in which you can make more than one attack, you can get an extra attack from Oxyrhynicus' (sp) lower order ability if they're flat-footed (which Invisible Fist can help with). Deliver Stunning attacks and Knock-downs on top of that. If someone is both Stunned they'll be nauseated the following round by Pain Touch and won't be able to do anything other than try to stand and eat damage multiplied AoOs. Also, your attacks all count as charges due to the weird mounted combat rules, so you can get an extra multiplier from Spirited Charge, and another by sticking Valorous on your Necklace of Natural Attacks. It's nothing world shattering, and it'd probably be better if it didn't stay in Monk for all 20 levels, but I think it's passable and it would seem to be mobile and high damage enough, with enough debuffing from stunning and tripping, to scrape into the same tier as a Barbarian or relatively optimized Fighter.