How viable is this build

[Sir cryosin]

I was thinking about making a Ranger with magic stone as his main weapon. His background, is that he grew up in the wilderness and has become very protective of the wilderness and beasts of the wild. He has never touched a sword or bow. His armor is animals leathers leafs and bark. Weapons are sling and a stick. How can I make the most of this build.

He's the warrior of the wilds

[Arkhios]

I was thinking about making a Ranger with magic stone as his main weapon his background is he grew up in the wilderness and has become very protective of the wilderness and beasts of the wild. He has never touched a sword or bow his armor is animals leather leafs and bark. Weapons are sling and a stick. How can I make the most of this build.

He's the warrior of the wilds

Don't get me wrong, as I don't want to be mean, but could you use some more punctuation in your posts? It's difficult to read, as sometimes I can't figure out where one sentence ends and another begins.
Would be easier to help you with your concept if you could do that, thanks!

[Naanomi]

Magic stone suffers from (in a strict reading) not benefiting from Extra Attack, Combat Styles, or Hunter class abilities.

That being said, Shillelagh works great with all of those, and Magic Stone as a ranged backup to a Wisdom-based melee Hunter works just fine. Varient Human, Magic Initiate... Stats on point buy 8/14/16/10/16/8?

[Sir cryosin]

Don't get me wrong, as I don't want to be mean, but could you use some more punctuation in your posts? It's difficult to read, as sometimes I can't figure out where one sentence ends and another begins.
Would be easier to help you with your concept if you could do that, thanks!

Sorry about that I just get to typing and I just forget about punctuation. Thanks for that point out I'll try to keep up on that. Maybe I need to slow down. Anyway thanks.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but this is going to be rather ineffective. The answer to the title question is simply: Not very.

Your first problem is that Rangers don't get cantrips, and thus they don't get magic stone. You'll need to either take a level of druid or the magic initiate feat, a significant expenditure of resources. Furthermore, if starting at low levels, you either won't have access to magic stone for a while, or you won't be a ranger for a while

And even once you've got it, Magic Stone is a decidedly inferior mode of attack. With only 1d6 damage and a 60/60 range, it is flat out inferior to any form of bow. That it uses your wisdom modifier is no particular advantage to you, since either your dexterity or strength should generally be better than your wisdom anyway (and if you've prioritised wisdom, you've done so at the expense of your other attributes). Furthermore, unlike the conceptually similar Shillelagh, Magic Stone is not actually a weapon (it is a ranged spell attack) and does not use the Attack action, and thus you cannot benefit from the archery fighting style or extra attack. And you are doing this with a class that is comparatively weak to begin with

My recommendations for alternative ways to do this concept:

1. Be a Druid. Druid fits just as well as Ranger for `protector of the wild`, makes effective use of sticks and stones as weapons by actually having the relevant cantrips on their spell list and not having far better options available. Also, you can bring down the wrath of nature and turn into a bear.

2. Use better weapons made out of 'natural' materials, perhaps that you made yourself. A bow (made, naturally out of wood) or a stone-headed Maul works just as well for the concept.

3. Just use conventional manufactured weapons. You're probably going to be working with civilized folks anyway, and the forest won't die because you used a rapier. And really, metal's just as 'natural' as wood or stone.

[Arkhios]

Magic stone suffers from (in a strict reading) not benefiting from Extra Attack

Exactly why would you not be able to benefit from Extra Attack with the magical pebbles transmuted by Magic Stone?

The spell is a bonus action with a range of touch, which only allows for the stones to be thrown (or shot with a sling) and deal more damage. Even though the attack would use spell attack modifiers, the attack itself is not a part of the spell.
Honestly, I think this part about Magic Stone is incorrect.
There's no such thing as Combat Styles for rangers in 5th edition, and even while Archery fighting style might not work (I'm AFB; I can't check), Defense is great Fighting Style still for anyone using an armor.


Furthermore, if starting at low levels, you either won't have access to magic stone for a while, or you won't be a ranger for a while


Variant human could take Magic Initiate at first level and still be a ranger.

Don't mix viability with optimal.
I think with magic initiate for druid and taking Magic Stone, Shillelagh, and perhaps Goodberry, this wildchild could make a great Beast Master ranger.

I like the concept. It has a lot of flavor :)

[Sir cryosin]

Exactly why would you not be able to benefit from Extra Attack with the magical pebbles transmuted by Magic Stone?

The spell is a bonus action with a range of touch, which only allows for the stones to be thrown (or shot with a sling) and deal more damage. Even though the attack would use spell attack modifiers, the attack itself is not a part of the spell.
Honestly, I think this part about Magic Stone is incorrect.
There's no such thing as Combat Styles for rangers in 5th edition, and even while Archery fighting style might not work (I'm AFB; I can't check), Defense is great Fighting Style still for anyone using an armor.



Variant human could take Magic Initiate at first level and still be a ranger.

Don't mix viability with optimal.
I think with magic initiate for druid and taking Magic Stone, Shillelagh, and perhaps Goodberry, this wildchild could make a great Beast Master ranger.

I like the concept. It has a lot of flavor :)

Thank you, you get it. My DM is a easy going DM. So I'm going to talk to him about using magic stone with the ranger other abilitys. It not like it's breakin the game. I'm thinking of hunter over beast master. Because I really don't fine anything to appealing about it. So can anyone come up with why I should pick one over the other.

[Citan]

Thank you, you get it. My DM is a easy going DM. So I'm going to talk to him about using magic stone with the ranger other abilitys. It not like it's breakin the game. I'm thinking of hunter over beast master. Because I really don't fine anything to appealing about it. So can anyone come up with why I should pick one over the other.
Hi all!
Thanks to this interesting thread, I discovered something I always overlooked about Magic Stone. ^^ (It seemed so obvious to me that you could use it as a normal ammunition that I missed the "spell" part of the attack).

Allowing to use them as normal ammunitions is certainly not game-breaking, far from it.
Also, I find this cantrip very sad in the fact that 3 pebbles is nice at low levels but becomes irrelevant very fast.
If your DM is gonna admit a bit of adaptation to make your build relevant, I'd suggest this other modification to the cantrip.
"The number of pebbles you can imbue with one cast increases by 3 when you reach 5th level (6), 11th level (9) and 17th level (12)."

Why this?
Because a Ranger will get a few things to do with his bonus action, so if by RAW you had to "waste" your bonus action every two rounds to recharge your pebbles it would mean a significant loss of efficiency, meaning your try for a flavorful character cost you. And that would be sad wouldn't it?

Also, unless I missed something, allowing this would just bring you at most "on-par" with any other Ranger using sling with DEX and still "behind" bow users. So far from being game-breaking.
(Considering a fight, from GITP users, lasts generally 4-5 rounds, it means that you are ready for 3 rounds at level 5, just when you get Extra Attack, 4 rounds at lvl 11 and 6 rounds = whole fight at lvl 17. Not considering Horde Breaker or spells. Seems balanced to me).

Also, it would reflect well your increasing mastery of natural magic. :)

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Exactly why would you not be able to benefit from Extra Attack with the magical pebbles transmuted by Magic Stone?

The spell is a bonus action with a range of touch, which only allows for the stones to be thrown (or shot with a sling) and deal more damage. Even though the attack would use spell attack modifiers, the attack itself is not a part of the spell.
Honestly, I think this part about Magic Stone is incorrect.
There's no such thing as Combat Styles for rangers in 5th edition, and even while Archery fighting style might not work (I'm AFB; I can't check), Defense is great Fighting Style still for anyone using an armor.



Variant human could take Magic Initiate at first level and still be a ranger.

Don't mix viability with optimal.
I think with magic initiate for druid and taking Magic Stone, Shillelagh, and perhaps Goodberry, this wildchild could make a great Beast Master ranger.

I like the concept. It has a lot of flavor :)

Because throwing a Magic Stone is not, at any point, described as using the Attack action (making an attack and using the Attack action are not the same thing, just as making a melee weapon attack and making an attack in melee are not the same thing). It does not work quite like Shillelagh, despite their conceptual similarity - Shillelagh changes the statistics of a weapon, whereas Magic Stone allows you to throw a non-weapon at someone and deal damage - it does not actually state at any point that the Magic Stone is a weapon, or that it uses the Attack action. You might say that making it so would be a reasonable decision - and I would entirely agree with you - but that ain't what they wrote.

Um... Combat Styles? I never said that. What I said is that the archery fighting style cannot be used with Magic Stone. Which it can't.

Forgot about variant human, my current DM doesn't allow it. Apologies. It is worth noting that variant human is in fact a variant, and an often banned variant at that, so I wouldn't rely on it generally. However, if it is available, then yes, it is probably the best way of doing this.

Whether or not this is viable of course depends primarily on the DM and the campaign - if your DM is particularly generous, or the campaign is very low combat, then being bad at combat won't be much of a problem (though being a feral child with no knowledge of the outside world probably will). But in more or less any of the published WotC campaigns, this guy would either get slaughtered, or just fail to contribute effectively and be carried by the rest of the party in combat. (Also, one does not mix up viability with optimal, because one is a noun and the other an adjective.:smallwink:)


Thank you, you get it. My DM is a easy going DM. So I'm going to talk to him about using magic stone with the ranger other abilitys. It not like it's breakin the game. I'm thinking of hunter over beast master. Because I really don't fine anything to appealing about it. So can anyone come up with why I should pick one over the other.

If you're set on this concept, then I would do so - given that you're going out of your way to pick an inferior option for the sake of flavour, a decent DM should cut you some slack. But I really wouldn't rely too much on the beneficence of DMs - we are cruel and capricious creatures, as a rule.

I'd generally recommend Hunter over Beast Master - the companion is frequently more of a liability than an asset. In your case, one of the companion's primary weaknesses (that it's attacks are worse than your own, and thus sacrificing your own attacks for it's is a bad idea) doesn't apply quite so much, but it's still very squishy. Bear in mind that if your DM doesn't rule that Magic Stone is a weapon attack, many of the Hunter options won't work with it.

[coredump]

Hmmmm.... it does appear you can use these with Attack Actions, and thus Extra Attack etc. Interesting....


Ask your DM, but I would rule that using these in a sling will also allow for Sneak attack, so MC with Rogue may be called for.

Sharpshooter will also work, as will Archery FS.

[coredump]

Because throwing a Magic Stone is not, at any point, described as using the Attack action (making an attack and using the Attack action are not the same thing, just as making a melee weapon attack and making an attack in melee are not the same thing).

It doesn't need to.... the Attack Action already allows it. Just like nothing explicitly states you can use a sling or a bow during an Attack Action. The Attack Action allows you to make a Ranged Attack. Anything that makes Ranged Attacks can be used to make that attack**. You can use a sling, you can use a bow, or a dart, or..... you can throw a magic stone, or put one in a sling.


**Spells like Firebolt don't work because you are not just making a ranged attack, you are also Casting a Spell....





it does not actually state at any point that the Magic Stone is a weapon, or that it uses the Attack action.
Nothing in the Attack Action requires a weapon be used.
Magic stone does not mention Attack Action, but neither does descriptions of the Bow or Sling or Darts, or...... It is the rules for Attack Action that allow Ranged Attacks to be made....




Um... Combat Styles? I never said that. What I said is that the archery fighting style cannot be used with Magic Stone. Which it can't.Sure it can. You are making an attack using a ranged weapon..... it never says it must be a weapon attack roll.
It is the same logic that allows the Dueling +2 damage to apply to throwing daggers. You are making a Ranged Attack, but using a Melee Weapon to make a Ranged Attack. In this case, you are making a Ranged Spell Attack, but using a Ranged Weapon while making the Ranged Spell Attack. So it meets the criteria for Magic Stone.

Similarly, for Archery, the first two items do *not* work (they require a ranged weapon attack), but the third item should work just fine.

[Sir cryosin]

Ok a d6 is not the most damage for a weapon. And the rang is not the best. But I'm not looking to do the most damage. I don't approach D&D like diablo 2 or 3 were it slater hordes of hordes of monsters and maxing my damage. No its about rp creating a charter getting in to the adventure doing decent damage is fine by me. A d6 is the same as a shortbow. And if I wanted to go with a halfling or gnome I couldn't use a longbow any way. But I could use a crossbow sure. But if I don't have crossbow expert feat I'll be losing out on my extra attack anyway.

[Arkhios]

Um... Combat Styles? I never said that.

If you read more closely, the first quote wasn't from you, I was answering to that one. Your post sided with similar concerns so I just followed up with a quote from you.

But, as you can see coredump opening it up for us better than I could at that moment (as I was Away From Book), I do believe, that Magic Stones work just fine with at least Extra Attack feature.
If you look at how improvised weapons work, proficient or not, I would say, that even the Magic Stone pebbles could function with Hunter abilities. Unless they say you have to be proficient (which is easily addressed by Tavern Brawler feat).

[bid]

Archery requires a ranged weapon. Sling is a ranged weapon. Magic stone's pebbles can be hurled with a sling.

Attack can be used to make a ranged spell attack but most spells embed the spell attack.

Nice, I didn't realize the subtlety of magic stone.

[Kane0]

Magic stone would work fine with a ranger build. A lot of things that you'd take for ranged combat also apply to it, and it allows you to prioritize wisdom more if you wish.
You wouldn't be as outright powerful as a longbow sharpshooter, but that's not to say a magic stone slinger isn't viable. Its definitely got more charm to it.

Also, would this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?462877-Ranger-Rework-v1-2) help?