OOTS #1022 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Wonton]

Great strip. I always wondered how breaking magic items worked. Are they destroyed? Will a Mending fix them and restore the magic? Roy doesn't care, I guess.

[Teln]

Oh, of course they picked the most frustrating way.

[Sniper Jo]

I just guessed the single most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it.
There are few characters in OOTS I have related to more than Roy.

[Ivrytwr]

Oh, Roy you are so witty. And snarky.
Do love the breaking of the staff and throwing it in the face!
Thanks Giant!

[IDrankWHAT]

I do believe Roy produced V's spell, Bigby's Expressive Single Digit to the HPoH, but he's a fighter, not a spellcaster! (oh yeah, I just did THAT call back)

[Shining Wrath]

The Order of the Stick is not responsible for any damage that may occur during the delivery of unholy relics

I hope that made Roy feel better about Durkula escaping with several minions.


The only way the world stays saved is if this vote fails AND we never have another one

And that's quite the conundrum - because I think it means a way has to be found to seal gates that have already opened. Which V doesn't know how to do, at least not from present indications. But ...

maybe ...

end of this arc is Durkon being restored to life, and while Durkula is raiding Durkon's memories, some knowledge is being transferred the other way, too - and Durkon will know how to seal the gates when he gets back.

Also, page 1, w00t.

[Lord Raziere]

"the Order of the Stick is not responsible for any damages that may occur during delivery" even if we did break it ourselves apparently, but hey thats adventurers for ya.

[Luizeu]

I loved the strip. Amazing strip

[Icedaemon]

Too bad, It was such a nice stick.

Hold on, throwing a thing at someone's face can definitely be construed as an attack. Why would Roy assume that a weak throw with non-lethal intent is any less of a cause for his own destruction than using a throwing weapon?

[Giggling Ghast]

That was a pretty epic "F*** you and the undead horse you rode in on" by Roy. I literally LOL'ed.

[KorvinStarmast]

This strip has a lot to like. (Whoa, how did I end up on page 1? Not common).

"I guessed the single most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it." heh heh, nice one.

"Noble sacrifices only make sense when they solve the problem at hand." Yep.

"Oh, right, because no one's ever voted for oppressive safety over risky freedom before." (Comment not made as for me it's a forbidden topic)

Final 2 frames: way to follow protocol, Roy. :smallbiggrin: *Two Thumbs Up!* I suspect that his deepest desire was to bury one of those halves of the staff into the vamp's heart.

I am trying to come up with a jest involving "order of the stick" and "delivery of two sticks that were once a stick" but all I can come up with stinks as a joke. I think Belkar might call it "the order of stick-these-up-your-backside" or something like that.

Speaking of Belkar, where is he now?

[fishguy]

"Big X" is that a nickname for Xykon? I don't recall that being used before.

[Alias]

Hah! Well, that's the end of that staff at least.

[Laurana]

On an unrelated note, I'm in love with the High Priestess of Freya.

[Shining Wrath]

Since a staff is, technically, a stick, did the Order of the Stick just commit symbolic suicide? Or did Roy stick it to the man, who is a female vampire?

[Aegis J Hyena]

Roy's had enough. It's time to aim Belkar properly this time and kick some undead tail all the way back to the Negative Material Plane.

[Arachnologist]

Well whenever someone starts to lawyer their way outta things, it's always good to hit them back with some more lawyering

[DukeGod]

"the Order of the Stick is not responsible for any damages that may occur during delivery" even if we did break it ourselves apparently, but hey thats adventurers for ya.

Hard to blame PC's for sticking it up to the ******* villains

[Peelee]

Well, that was a great legal documentary, but could you have thrown in a joke or two?

Kidding aside, five bucks says Giant is happy he never needs to keep up with that staff anymore.

[Quild]

I don't know if that rule things shows that Roy is learning from the fHPoH or from Elan :smallconfused:

[CoffeeIncluded]

If there was ever a time to let Belkar off his chain, this is it.

[Shining Wrath]

Interesting that no one has yet considered the possibility that there are more vampires, defiling the temple by their very existence.

[IDrankWHAT]

There is one thing that comes to mind though, because of the *smack* sound, will the clerics there see that as an attack on the HPoH? Just a thought.

[KorvinStarmast]

Since a staff is, technically, a stick, did the Order of the Stick just commit symbolic suicide? Or did Roy stick it to the man, who is a female vampire?
Per my edit on my post, I kept tripping over the stick puns, so I just stuck a fork in those efforts: they are done.

[DaOldeWolf]

Roy really has learnt a lot since his last heroic sacrifice.

It was also really nice he had the chance of revenge against the vampire.

[Peelee]

Interesting that no one has yet considered the possibility that there are more vampires, defiling the temple by their very existence.

Defiling? The temple isnt Good. Vampires wouldn't be defiling it simply by existing there.

[Basement Cat]

I love how Roy figured out that he couldn't attack the new HPoH by simply guessing what the most frustrating and obstructive rule would be.

I do wonder, however, if in this world whether dying and being resurrected costs you a Con point but gives you a Wisdom point because Roy is being extremely rational and perceptive right now.

Plus, I love the "home cooked meal" bit. Roy seems to remember a lot more now than he did just after he was brought back from the dead. It must give him a really different point of view about life and everything after being in the Seven Heavens for months.

EDIT: Strange, this is the third or fourth time I just happened to be on the first page.
...it's a trap, isn't it? :smalleek:

[Steve L]

"the Order of the Stick is not responsible for any damages that may occur during delivery" even if we did break it ourselves apparently, but hey thats adventurers for ya.

Do the Godsmoot rules include a "she literally asked for it" clause? If so, he should have spoken the disclaimer then "delivered" the pieces of the staff directly to her heart.

[cctrackstar]

last we saw belkar, he was about to face down a pretty nasty vampire, i worry he might come in with slightly sharper teeth than before.............. ;(

[Peelee]

last we saw belkar, he was about to face down a pretty nasty vampire, i worry he might come in with slightly sharper teeth than before.............. ;(

In three days at the very earliest, you mean?

[Cizak]

Don't have much to say about this one, it's as good as always. Just want to point out that the vampire's speech balloon is the wrong colour.

[Emperordaniel]

Yep, as I thought - Roy cannot kill the New High Priest of Hel.

Time to chase after Phyrnglsnyx!

[Roger_Druid]

Panel 2 typo? "trasnferred"

Edit: Great strip. I always wondered how breaking magic items worked. Are they destroyed? Will a Mending fix them and restore the magic? Roy doesn't care, I guess.

Hi all!

Plus: shouldn't Roy be hit with a bazillion of breaking-a-magical-staff damage? Once, playing a Paladin of 3.5e, a got a 200HP damage, no ST, on my face, when someone did that (as a last effort to dispose of me and my party). I barely survived (was 13th lvl), as well as my party...

Roger

[Kish]

That's not automatic for all magical staves, it's just a feature of a Staff of Power and a Staff of the Magi specifically.

[Basement Cat]

Hi all!

Plus: shouldn't Roy be hit with a bazillion of breaking-a-magical-staff damage? Once, playing a Paladin of 3.5e, a got a 200HP damage, no ST, on my face, when someone did that (as a last effort to dispose of me and my party). I barely survived (was 13th lvl), as well as my party...

Roger

The only ones that explode when broken are Staves of Power and Staves of the Magi.

At least as far as the rule books state. Home rules could say any and every magic item explodes when destroyed, sure, but it's not in the rule books.

Besides, if every wand and staff exploded when snapped then fighters with a lot of hit points would be running around snapping them as AoE weapons all the time. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: ninja'd

[Jasdoif]

I always wondered how breaking magic items worked. Are they destroyed? Will a Mending fix them and restore the magic? Roy doesn't care, I guess.Once it's broken, its no longer magical.
A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.
The make whole spell also repairs a damaged--but not completely broken--magic item.So it's presently a broken nonmagical stick.

[sengmeng]

Hahaha yes!

[Killer Angel]

A petty revenge... but so satisfying. :smallbiggrin:

[SpectralDerp]

This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

[Emperordaniel]

This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

Hey, she asked for the staff, it's not the Order of the Stick's fault that she failed to catch it when he tossed it at her.

[Keltest]

Yay, Roy gets to sass someone again!

[Anarion]

Well, that was expected I suppose. I enjoy hearing exposition from Roy though, he makes excellent points with his sarcastic retorts.


This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

It's not arbitrary. The priests and assorted bodyguards in the room aren't idiots, they can tell the difference between throwing a staff at someone out of frustration when it causes no harm vs. attacking with the intent to kill her. Plus, the game works on attack rolls and Roy did not make an attack roll there, it's just an illustration for comic effect, no harm done.

[Basement Cat]

This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.During their fight the HPoH warned Wrecan that the Church of Hel couldn't be held accountable for any harm he suffered if he got in way (so to speak).

So Roy's just taking a page from Durkula's book.

EDIT: Here's the strip. (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html)

[Vendanna]

Obviously Roy continues downsizing Hel's church Staff... :D

[8BitNinja]

This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

He could've aggravated an attack and caused the HPoH to attack, causing the entire moot to come and defend him due to the breaking of the rules

[Quibblicious]

Way to stick it to 'em, Roy.

I have no shame...

[silphael]

Too bad, It was such a nice stick.

Hold on, throwing a thing at someone's face can definitely be construed as an attack. Why would Roy assume that a weak throw with non-lethal intent is any less of a cause for his own destruction than using a throwing weapon?

No attack roll would pretty much do it.

[silversaraph]

So... couldn't Wrecan kill Veldrina, since her god also voted "yes"? It would take all of ten minutes to resurrect her afterwards...

[Sniffnoy]

Hm -- Durkula may be in trouble without his staff. Then again, he is heading to the dwarven lands, and I gather that there he can probably stay underground with little problem. But this is at least a potential new vulnerability.

[Unbodied]

last we saw belkar, he was about to face down a pretty nasty vampire, i worry he might come in with slightly sharper teeth than before.............. ;(
Fifty imaginary bucks says that next time we see Belkar he's going to be casually strolling past a pile of dead vampires that he just killed.
The drama at the church is over now after all. The real problem now is catching up to Not-Durkon and stopping him. Plus its Belkar.

[The gF]

So... couldn't Wrecan kill Veldrina, since her god also voted "yes"? It would take all of ten minutes to resurrect her afterwards...

She is not the vote herself in the same way. Veldrina represents an entire Pantheon, and her absence would not prevent the vote of another pantheon from counting, since they are all gathered at their own godsmoot elsewhere. She's just the messenger, whereas the high priests of each god personally represent the message, as it were.

[8BitNinja]

So... couldn't Wrecan kill Veldrina, since her god also voted "yes"? It would take all of ten minutes to resurrect her afterwards...

Do you want to die in horrible, unnatural ways by the wrath of the gods?

[Vendanna]

So... couldn't Wrecan kill Veldrina, since her god also voted "yes"? It would take all of ten minutes to resurrect her afterwards...

First, that's too rude. Second Veldrina has Zilch effect on the vote. she was here only to inform of the votes of the East panteon? even if she was killed it wouldn't change anything.

Also, she needs to stay alive, she has a tiger to take care for!

[8BitNinja]

If anyone is killed, nothing good will come of it

[The Succubus]

Oopsie. Accidents happen.

[8BitNinja]

Still no Simon Belmont?

Okay :smallfrown:

[Ezekiel]

And if you order 1 staff now, we'll give it to you half off! :roy:

*shows himself out*

[Demidos]

@ the Giant, in the second strip the HPOO's comment should probably be amended to

"Yes, I'm afraid so."

instead of

"Yes, I am afraid."

The second technically works, but it sounds really wonky, and should probably at least replace yes with "That is correct" or something similar.

[wolfdreams01]

Great comic, Rich! Once again, Roy shows that Lawful Good is not Lawful Stupid. :smallbiggrin:

[Grand Arbiter]

Too bad, It was such a nice stick.

Hold on, throwing a thing at someone's face can definitely be construed as an attack. Why would Roy assume that a weak throw with non-lethal intent is any less of a cause for his own destruction than using a throwing weapon?

Roy's wording of "The Order of the Stick is not responsible for any damage that may occur during the delivery of unholy relics." includes damage to the receiving party because he did not specify being responsible for damage only to the relic.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Kantaki]

:smallbiggrin:Breaking the Staff was great and returning it the most aggressive (not attacking) way possible right now even better. NHPoH should have specified she wants the thing intact. Not that it would have helped.

[joela]

I'm still giggling over the last panel :smallbiggrin:

[cctrackstar]

last we saw belkar, he was about to face down a pretty nasty vampire, i worry he might come in with slightly sharper teeth than before.............. ;(

Fifty imaginary bucks says that next time we see Belkar he's going to be casually strolling past a pile of dead vampires that he just killed.
The drama at the church is over now after all. The real problem now is catching up to Not-Durkon and stopping him. Plus its Belkar.

i'm just sayin......... he does have that ominous death prediction from the seer and all, nothing like a vampire fight to make it happen, and he was supposed to jump in and save the day, wasn't he?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

[Shining Wrath]

Hi all!

Plus: shouldn't Roy be hit with a bazillion of breaking-a-magical-staff damage? Once, playing a Paladin of 3.5e, a got a 200HP damage, no ST, on my face, when someone did that (as a last effort to dispose of me and my party). I barely survived (was 13th lvl), as well as my party...

Roger

Only when the rules for the particular magical item call that out - Staff of Power and Staff of Magi do, others do not. This magic item is Rich's creation and he has decided it doesn't.


This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

If that constitutes an attack by the rules of the Godsmoot then probably tripping and spilling coffee would as well - that stick did 0 HP of damage, Roy knew that it would do 0 HP of damage, and so does everyone in the room.

[Nemeean_lion]

So, are we going to start calling Durkula GPTBD from now on? (Guy pretending to be Durkon)

[AbyssStalker]

I honestly hope Belkar gets vamped, not for the sake of his life (or unlife), but so maybe he can arrive and the new HPoH can make a huge mistake in declaring him her bodyguard, hell, even if Belkar is being controlled similar to everyone else I wouldn't put it past him to goad an evil thrall into attacking her for him in some way or another.

Also, only noticed it on 2nd read, but that line "Maybe in ways we can't even fix" was probably my 2nd favorite part, just behind the order of the stick branching into a delivery service for a broken vampiric staff delivery to (soon to be broken) vampiric staff.

[PallentisLunam]

Nice one Roy.

Not bad Mr. Giant.

[eilandesq]

Two reactions:

--pleased that no one has yet expressed moral outrage (as opposed to concern about rules lawyering getting him killed) about Roy destroying the staff (of course, I've jinxed it now);

--Belkar clearly will be going on with the others to the dwarven homeland, and will be outraged when he staggers in heavily wounded to gloat to Roy only to have him respond, "We know--time to hit the road again to deal with it."

[Kolhammer]

Is the high priestess now effectively dead?

I don't see her as knowing the protection from the sunlight spell and that room has a lot of windows.

I also really doubt the plotline will be wrapped up in a day.

Resurrection doesn't work as well right because she will come back as herself not as a vampire?

[Alaris]

Hold on, throwing a thing at someone's face can definitely be construed as an attack. Why would Roy assume that a weak throw with non-lethal intent is any less of a cause for his own destruction than using a throwing weapon?

Because it was funny. Funny trumps 'rules' in this comic.

[EccentricFellow]

Also ... Object in mirror are closer than they appear - WHACK!

Always a delight to see the plot develop. One more loose end to wrap up and then we can get to the meat of it.

[Shining Wrath]

Is the high priestess now effectively dead?

I don't see her as knowing the protection from the sunlight spell and that room has a lot of windows.

I also really doubt the plotline will be wrapped up in a day.

Resurrection doesn't work as well right because she will come back as herself not as a vampire?

That's very true - but I don't think we've established how long Malack's protection from sunlight spell lasts. We know Malack used to cast it daily, but that doesn't mean it lasts only 24 hours.

Also, I think it has to be direct sunlight and the room has balconies, so probably there's a place on the south wall under a balcony where she could cower in terror during the daytime.

[ti'esar]

This was fun. I suspect Roy is speaking for a lot of readers right now.

It does seem a bit odd that we haven't seen anything of Belkar fighting the vampire goliath now that all of the other vamp minions have dusted off one way or another.

[Gift Jeraff]

Has anyone mentioned that Roy can now just kill the new HPoH and resolve this whole side-quest? :smallconfused:

[chy03001]

NOOO!!!!

Does the "SMACK" at the end represent non-lethal damage? If so, will Roy be attacked by Vampires?!

[Kantaki]

I honestly hope Belkar gets vamped, not for the sake of his life (or unlife), but so maybe he can arrive and the new HPoH can make a huge mistake in declaring him her bodyguard, hell, even if Belkar is being controlled similar to everyone else I wouldn't put it past him to goad an evil thrall into attacking her for him in some way or another.

Also, only noticed it on 2nd read, but that line "Maybe in ways we can't even fix" was probably my 2nd favorite part, just behind the order of the stick branching into a delivery service for a broken vampiric staff delivery to (soon to be broken) vampiric staff.

If Belkar got vamped the vampire won't be on his legs already. The sequence didn't last that long. The only reason those other vampires rose so fast was the Staff. And that was in the Moot-chamber when Belkar encountered the vampires.

[rman]

Is the high priestess now effectively dead?

Depends on the vampire rules in play. It will likely be a few days until the dwarven vote gets done one way or another. The HPoH has no coffin and is required to stay in the warded part of the godsmoot until the vote is complete. Staying out of the direct sunlight or window filtered sunlight should not be a big deal. A slightly weakened HPoH is likely all that will happen.

The other priests can made do on create food and water etc.

Hmm, what would a vampire cleric get when casting create food and water? I suppose there is always summon woodland being or other summoning spells for vampire food supply.

[KorvinStarmast]

Has anyone mentioned that Roy can now just kill the new HPoH and resolve this whole side-quest? :smallconfused: Asked and answered in the dialogue between Veldrina and Roy in frames 1-4 of this comic, #1022.

In short, no, he can't.

[Burner28]

Great strip as usual.

[Cavir]

I am trying to come up with a jest involving "order of the stick" and "delivery of two sticks that were once a stick" but all I can come up with stinks as a joke.

That stick is now.... out of order.

[georgie_leech]

Has anyone mentioned that Roy can now just kill the new HPoH and resolve this whole side-quest? :smallconfused:

Mentioned in comic actually. Doing so would result in the whole Temple having to cooperate in turning Roy into a greasy spot on the floor with divine magics, resulting in the OotS falling apart after Roy's death (again), freeing up Xykon and Redcloak to complete their plan with the gates, unless the gods do in fact vote to destroy the universe and remake it. When the best outcome of a plan is 'an evil Lich obtains supreme power and conquers most of if not all the world,' you need a better plan.

[KorvinStarmast]

That stick is now.... out of order.
Well played, sir -- that is the sort of thing I was trying to make happen, but the brain failed its funny check. (And I can't buy another skill rank for love nor money).

[Deuce]

The demise of the Staff of Way OP Necromancy reminds me fondly of the end of several over-powered items at the hands of DM's I've known (or been on occasion).

New HPoH may need to invest in sunscreen once her current protection wears off.

[Psyren]

Too bad, It was such a nice stick.

Hold on, throwing a thing at someone's face can definitely be construed as an attack. Why would Roy assume that a weak throw with non-lethal intent is any less of a cause for his own destruction than using a throwing weapon?


This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

I disagree - a gesture that has no chance of harming someone can't really be considered an attack. Would tapping someone on the shoulder or brushing a feather on their hand be an attack?

Vampires have damage reduction, thus tossing some non-magical wood in one's face would be like blowing bubbles at them as far as I'm concerned. (Granted, the Giant could decide to interpret it that way and create more drama but my guess is that we're more or less done with the Godsmoot for the moment.)

[JoeyTheNeko]

this comic made me giggle loudly.

[Kareasint]

I picture Roy as having figured out all of the angles at this point. He pretty much had guessed a number of things and had them confirmed. Therefore, he knew that he could break the staff and throw the pieces into the vampire's face.

This strip answered a lot of questions fast. It's time to get back to the ship and make a run to the north quickly. I suspect that Belkar is about to make an entrance.

Protection from Sunlight spell: Durkula researched it. According to RAW, he is the only one allowed to cast it unless he teaches it to someone else. I have often wondered if sharing the knowledge of the spell with a deity is enough to allow the deity to grant the spell to other clerics of the faith.

[Idiotic_Bird]

Durkon's thrall (I forgot his name) had stated in #1016 that he had gotten the teleportation orb so that they could dominate they dwarven elders. Since he doesn't have the staff... well i don't know if dominate and vampirise are the same thing. I don't play D&D, so can someone please tell me if I'm right? :smallconfused:
P.S I KNEW that staff would come up somewhere.

EDIT: Vel's hair in that first panel though... XD

[Mordokai]

Two words summarize my feelings for this comic:

**** yeah! :smallbiggrin:

This is why Roy is my favourite character in comic.

[ellindsey]

Durkon's thrall (I forgot his name) had stated in #1016 that he had gotten the teleportation orb so that they could dominate they dwarven elders. Since he doesn't have the staff... well i don't know if dominate and vampirise are the same thing. I don't play D&D, so can someone please tell me if I'm right? :smallconfused:

The Dominate ability is something that vampires can just do at any time, no staff required. The staff would only be needed if they wanted to turn the dwarven elders into vampires quickly, but that doesn't seem to be the plan.

[Miaow]

"I got a cool little nightlight with my name on it."

That's a cute way for him to remember Roy's Archon with his fuzzy memories. :smallsmile: I wonder if this means he doesn't remember the task he asked Roy's Archon to do for him before he left.

[Shining Wrath]

Has anyone mentioned that Roy can now just kill the new HPoH and resolve this whole side-quest? :smallconfused:

Yes, but he has to convert to Banjo-worship and become Elan's bodyguard first.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Roy does seem just a little frustrated by the events of the Godsmoot.

[GreenCatCo]

With regards to the duration of Protection from Sunlight, Malack prepared it twice 'just in case'. Which would suggest at minimum a duration of 12-18, enough to protect during daylight hours with another on standby in case of dispel. I'm fairly sure he made the staff so it would have the same duration as when he himself cast it.

In game terms, although irrelevant to the storyline :), major buffs would have durations of 1 hour/level or a flat 24 hours, either way the vampire in front has about a day before it wears off, less depending on when she was vampirified (vampirized? vampired? sanguivoriformized?) and given the buff.

[DaggerPen]

Oh, there's nothing quite like the sweet taste of trademark Greenhilt Snark on this generally otherwise terrible day.

Now get out of there before the Yes voters realize that your newly missing official status means you can be legally attacked, Roy.

[Grey Watcher]

@ the Giant, in the second strip the HPOO's comment should probably be amended to

"Yes, I'm afraid so."

instead of

"Yes, I am afraid."

The second technically works, but it sounds really wonky, and should probably at least replace yes with "That is correct" or something similar.

Reads pretty naturally as is to me. :smallconfused:

[Spoomeister]

Roy is pretty much acting how I'd act as a player if this were a campaign and I was running Roy's character.

It's good to see this end of things starting to wrap up. I have to think V will be swooping in to save Belkar from the guard outside the temple, and then everyone is going to hop on the airship post-haste to try to resume the dash to the gate. Even though all sorts of horrible things are about to be done to the dwarves...


...hm, actually, hang on. Do they need to race to the gate to try to beat Xykon as originally intended? Or do they now have to race to the dwarves, to deal with Durkula, so that the vote still fails? I think that's alluded to in the 7th panel... have to make sure the vote fails... sigh. Ok actually it would not surprise me if dwarven faceoffs and Durkula/Durkon takes up the rest of this whole book and we don't end up seeing Xykon and Team Evil for some time.
...or hey, perhaps at the point when OOTS is back on the airship to their next destination, we get a perspective change and catch up on what Team Evil's been up to for the last 121 strips. Kraagar's Tomb must be a doozy if Team Evil hasn't made it to the last Gate yet.
...or, heh, it'd be a hell of a thing if OOTS eventually gets to the last Gate a couple hundred strips from now and they see blast marks, a little crown, a busted holy symbol, a tattered Hello Kitty umbrella, and we never see any of Team Evil again except for a cameo that finally reveals who the MitD is.

[Emperordaniel]

So, are we going to start calling Durkula GPTBD from now on? (Guy pretending to be Durkon)

I prefer Phyrnglsnyx myself.

[StClair]

Roy does seem just a little frustrated by the events of the Godsmoot.

Just a bit, yes.
And as others have noted, who can blame him? Most would probably feel and act the same, in his place.

[Cizak]

Has anyone mentioned that Roy can now just kill the new HPoH and resolve this whole side-quest? :smallconfused:

I honestly don't know if I'm missing sarcasm here, but the strip discusses specifically this.

[DaggerPen]

So, are we going to start calling Durkula GPTBD from now on? (Guy pretending to be Durkon)

... actually, that's pretty good.


NOOO!!!!

Does the "SMACK" at the end represent non-lethal damage? If so, will Roy be attacked by Vampires?!

The Vampires that have been dusted and are no longer in the room? No.

The Vampires who teleported out with GPTBD? Probably eventually once they get to the dwarven lands, but I feel like that would have happened even without Roy's little special delivery.

The other High Priests in the room, only one of whom is a vampire? Probably not - if GPTBD's line about how "the Church of Hel cannot be held responsible if a balcony happens to collapse where you're standing" line that Roy is calling back to here didn't count as an attack, I doubt that the new HPOH failing to catch the staff halves that Roy threw "to" her too forcefully without an attack roll counts.


When the best outcome of a plan is 'an evil Lich obtains supreme power and conquers most of if not all the world,' you need a better plan.

I am tempted to sig this...


...or hey, perhaps at the point when OOTS is back on the airship to their next destination, we get a perspective change and catch up on what Team Evil's been up to for the last 121 strips. Kraagar's Tomb must be a doozy if Team Evil hasn't made it to the last Gate yet.

Oh man, I hope so! I like this arc well enough, but I'm itching to get a good Team Evil status update.

[Basement Cat]

When the best outcome of a plan is 'an evil Lich obtains supreme power and conquers most of if not all the world,' you need a better plan.

May I keep this? It's an instant classic. :smallsmile:

[Ruck]

Oh, of course they picked the most frustrating way.
I laughed so hard at that, after the last couple of months of forum posters trying to rules-lawyer solutions to the Godsmoot.


I do believe Roy produced V's spell, Bigby's Expressive Single Digit to the HPoH, but he's a fighter, not a spellcaster! (oh yeah, I just did THAT call back)
I think Roy has Expressive Single Digit as an innate ability.


Too bad, It was such a nice stick.

Hold on, throwing a thing at someone's face can definitely be construed as an attack. Why would Roy assume that a weak throw with non-lethal intent is any less of a cause for his own destruction than using a throwing weapon?
Or it's not an attack and he's just turning the rules-lawyering back on HPoH II. "Since I technically have to return this to, I will do so in barest accordance with the letter of the law. No one said I had to return it functioning and in one piece."


Has anyone mentioned that Roy can now just kill the new HPoH and resolve this whole side-quest? :smallconfused:
Are you doing a bit or something?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[StragaSevera]

Okay, so Roy cannot kill HPOH, because without him Order of the Stick will not be able to defeat Xykon.
Isn't it good that we have one disposable halfling just for this purpose? ^_^

[Shining Wrath]

... SNIP ... I think Roy has Expressive Single Digit as an innate ability.


Are you doing a bit or something?

I think all 3.5 fighters would have developed that after one read through any Tier discussion on these pages.

I believe I am the only person who realized the implied blue-textness of Gift Jiraff.

[Basement Cat]

Whoa! I just recognized the significance of Panel 1:

Veldrina: Do you need healing.
Roy: I'm fine.

However effective that healing potion Roy imbibed was he was still pretty bashed up until he went into green eyed "Hulk" mode. Now he's unharmed? Now he doesn't have so much as a scratch on him?

That's...that's...I mean, I know it's been discussed but for the subject to be directly addressed in this way is pretty enlightening. It looks like some serious foreshadowing, too.

[HandofShadows]

Great Page. And Roy DOES make sure that the staff is in a "condition". :smallcool:

[Ruck]

I think all 3.5 fighters would have developed that after one read through any Tier discussion on these pages.

I believe I am the only person who realized the implied blue-textness of Gift Jiraff.

Roy specifically, what with his Deadpan Snarker personality at all, probably developed it earlier than most.

And I definitely don't get the "trolling is funny/cool because it's ironic, man!" thing, and I probably never will.

[Smolder]

Go Roy! Fight frustrating rules-lawyering with frustrating rules-lawyering!

[Sybarith]

i'm just sayin......... he does have that ominous death prediction from the seer and all, nothing like a vampire fight to make it happen, and he was supposed to jump in and save the day, wasn't he?

I've only just realized something while re-reading this... it didn't say he was going to die, just that he would "take his last breath - ever." Haven't we already done a bagpipe-themed comic that established vampires don't need to breathe?

[georgie_leech]

I am tempted to sig this...

Feel free.:smallcool:

[Tobimaro]

Well played, Roy. Too bad you could not beat up Durkula, but you got in the last shot against the NHPoH.

[Sunken Valley]

Why does the vampire have a normal speech balloon and not an inverted one?

Why am I the first to point this out?

[sumneros]

this may be relevant
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html

[ChillerInstinct]

Hah, I actually completely forgot about the staff.

...Unfortunately, its destruction isn't going to mean much in terms of slowing him and the other vampires down. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) Makes you wonder how many times he'll be able to cast Protection from Daylight per day, which presumably means not being able to expand his little squad much, but other than that, this probably won't be much more than a temporary hiccup. If that.

[Keltest]

Hah, I actually completely forgot about the staff.

...Unfortunately, its destruction isn't going to mean much in terms of slowing him and the other vampires down. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) Makes you wonder how many times he'll be able to cast Protection from Daylight per day, which presumably means not being able to expand his little squad much, but other than that, this probably won't be much more than a temporary hiccup. If that.

Depending on what level a spell it is, preparing it enough times every day for everyone to have one (plus a couple extras, just in case) could actually be quite burdensome.

[Clistenes]

So... couldn't Wrecan kill Veldrina, since her god also voted "yes"? It would take all of ten minutes to resurrect her afterwards...

The Giant has said that he won't allow suicide to be the way out of this mess, and being killed by her own bodyguard would be too close, I suspect. So the answer is "the DM says no".

[Onyavar]

So, are we going to start calling Durkula GPTBD from now on? (Guy pretending to be Durkon)

I prefer Phyrnglsnyx myself.

So do I.
Although Undurkon is more concise, we're Phyrnglsnyxing all the way.

[Jasdoif]

Hah, I actually completely forgot about the staff.

...Unfortunately, its destruction isn't going to mean much in terms of slowing him and the other vampires down. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) Makes you wonder how many times he'll be able to cast Protection from Daylight per day, which presumably means not being able to expand his little squad much, but other than that, this probably won't be much more than a temporary hiccup. If that.Seeing as HPoH already left, and the staff didn't go with him, it wouldn't be any direct use to him even if it were still intact.

[Idiotic_Bird]

Goddamit, this all comes down to Malack. WHy did you have to vampirise Durkon???:smallfrown:

[ChillerInstinct]

Seeing as HPoH already left, and the staff didn't go with him, it wouldn't be any direct use to him even if it were still intact.

Well, yes. :P I meant more the loss of the staff in general.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Limited access to Protection From Daylight might indeed be a problem... Were it not for the fact that Dwarves live primarily underground.

[Martok]

I love Roy in this strip. :smallsmile: That's all I have to say. (That, and great writing, Giant!)

[10d10]

To: New High Priest of Hel
From: Roy
Re:kt

[Idiotic_Bird]

My guess of what would happen:
GPD(Guy Pretending to be Durkon) goes to the dwarven lands, but encounters Durkon's mum/friends and Durkon starts fighting back. He manages to hold distract GPD long enough for OOTS to come over and defeat GPD.
My guess anyways, idk how that would actually work out, but its my guess...

[GM_3826]

Plot twist: In history, this event would be said to be why they became known as the Order of the Stick.

*poofs back to their plane of residence*

[AndyLeighton]

Whoa! I just recognized the significance of Panel 1:

Veldrina: Do you need healing.
Roy: I'm fine.

However effective that healing potion Roy imbibed was he was still pretty bashed up until he went into green eyed "Hulk" mode. Now he's unharmed? Now he doesn't have so much as a scratch on him?

That's...that's...I mean, I know it's been discussed but for the subject to be directly addressed in this way is pretty enlightening. It looks like some serious foreshadowing, too.

Based on OotS #1009, it looks like when he went into Hulk mode, he was instantly healed of all damage (after he imbibed a potion that didn't heal him all the way). A close reading of the rest of the comic since then shows that he didn't take any damage during the fight against the vampires.

Related: If you know of any threads discussing Roy's sword's powers, I would greatly appreciate it if you could post it in a reply or PM it to me- I've been looking for one but haven't found it yet :)

[Ralanr]

Roy has some of the best "**** you" moments. O-chul still takes the cake in my book. "Smite. Evil."

[eilandesq]

Based on OotS #1009, it looks like when he went into Hulk mode, he was instantly healed of all damage (after he imbibed a potion that didn't heal him all the way). A close reading of the rest of the comic since then shows that he didn't take any damage during the fight against the vampires.

Related: If you know of any threads discussing Roy's sword's powers, I would greatly appreciate it if you could post it in a reply or PM it to me- I've been looking for one but haven't found it yet :)

Given that Xykon's signature move for beating down tough opponents is spamming Energy Drain--an attack for which it is ordinarily hard to come up with a decent defense against, explaining why an epic level wizard like Dorukan was so readily slaughtered by it--Roy having an item which can make it a momentary annoyance is bound to be rather significant going forward. Fire and gravity--which was mostly what killed him last time--are a tad easier to defend against.

[Emperordaniel]

Why does the vampire have a normal speech balloon and not an inverted one?

Why am I the first to point this out?

Vampires have an established ability to speak "normally" when desired - see Malack.

[Mister Non PC]

This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

Why would you bother trolling here? If you don't like the strip go away and read something more your speed - like Luann or something.

[Wildroses]

Nice callback in the last panel. It's also nice having some pure humour again after all the drama. Not that I have minded the drama. I am all psyched for the Dwarven Homelands right now.

[Bobbybobby99]

Contrary to Mx. Derp, I loved this. So much laughter. So much.

[Ellen]

It's like the time I ordered a book (from England. First edition. Autographed). Wouldn't you know that would be the week they had flooding along the delivery route?

[Sir_Norbert]

So do I.
Although Undurkon is more concise, we're Phyrnglsnyxing all the way.

Can I just point out that your phonetic transcription is way off? [y] is the German ü; the vowel in "fear" is [i:]. The suggested pronunciation "fear-en-gil-sniks" is four syllables, with a hard [g] after the [ŋ]. You're missing a syllable, and you have a secondary stress marker but no primary stress. In short, you want:

[ˈfiːrəŋɡəlˌsnɪks]

[Max™]

So, the vampires out front are still protected by the last casting of that spell with the staff for how long?

I haven't done D&D in years and long since purged all the system and palladium from my head for M&M goodness.


Can I just point out that your phonetic transcription is way off? [y] is the German ü; the vowel in "fear" is [i:]. The suggested pronunciation "fear-en-gil-sniks" is four syllables, with a hard [g] after the [ŋ]. You're missing a syllable, and you have a secondary stress marker but no primary stress. In short, you want:

[ˈfiːrəŋɡəlˌsnɪks]

Thank you

[Metahuman1]

Ya know, just a ruthlessly pragmatic though. The gods could decide to "Declare War." on the Dwarves as step 1 of the break and remake the world. Thus killing ALL of them in "Battle." and Denying Hel her power up. Note: This assumes they commit and go through with that plan.


That said: This last couple of Strips has become my default argument for why Lawful Alignments tend to screw over players when they attempt to combine them with "Good." but are the absolute best thing ever if you combine them with "Neutral." Or "Evil.". Ergo why I don't play them anymore.

[Yendor]

I love HP-Odin's expression of "Yeah, I'd totally let you kill her if I could."

And Roy doesn't have to worry about losing protection himself. There are several priests who'd be willing to claim him if necessary. Veldrina has a spot open, and she's not likely to hold his previous job performance against him.

[hroþila]

Can I just point out that your phonetic transcription is way off? [y] is the German ü; the vowel in "fear" is [i:]. The suggested pronunciation "fear-en-gil-sniks" is four syllables, with a hard [g] after the [ŋ]. You're missing a syllable, and you have a secondary stress marker but no primary stress. In short, you want:

[ˈfiːrəŋɡəlˌsnɪks]
Alternatively, the phonetic transcription is right by default and "fear-en-gil-sniks" is a fair English-based approximation.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Thanks, Giant. I really needed this after the MONDAY I've had.


Well played, sir -- that is the sort of thing I was trying to make happen, but the brain failed its funny check. (And I can't buy another skill rank for love nor money).

Did you remember to schedule your training montage?

[Sam113097]

After all the talk about not attacking the representatives, I'm afraid Belkar is about to burst in, kill the New HPoH, and make a bad situation even worse.

[Lord Stoneheart]

I love HP-Odin's expression of "Yeah, I'd totally let you kill her if I could."

And Roy doesn't have to worry about losing protection himself. There are several priests who'd be willing to claim him if necessary. Veldrina has a spot open, and she's not likely to hold his previous job performance against him.

Veldrina doesn't have a spot open, Wrecan is still around. And it's not just being a bodyguard that allowed him to attack Lurky. If any bodyguard attacked a priest of another god they would be put to death immediately. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html

Being Lurky's bodyguard specifically allowed Roy to attack him. Unless the new high priestess decides to hire him, Roy's not allowed to attack.

[Keltest]

Veldrina doesn't have a spot open, Wrecan is still around. And it's not just being a bodyguard that allowed him to attack Lurky. If any bodyguard attacked a priest of another god they would be put to death immediately. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html

Being Lurky's bodyguard specifically allowed Roy to attack him. Unless the new high priestess decides to hire him, Roy's not allowed to attack.

You get two bodyguards.

[Yendor]

Being Lurky's bodyguard specifically allowed Roy to attack him. Unless the new high priestess decides to hire him, Roy's not allowed to attack.

Who said anything about Roy attacking? The bodyguard protection is to keep him from being attacked by priests who aren't happy with his actions. And as mentioned, priests are allowed two bodyguards.

[davidbofinger]

Kraagar's Tomb must be a doozy

The Monster in the Darkness' Father is there, so yeah, kind of.

[Kislath]

Why was that staff considered the property of the Church of Hel?

It was Malack's. He was a priest of Jergal. Durkon only got it because Malack died. I don't recall any sort of transfer of registered ownership.

[Mandor]

Fifty imaginary bucks says that next time we see Belkar he's going to be casually strolling past a pile of dead vampires that he just killed.
The drama at the church is over now after all. The real problem now is catching up to Not-Durkon and stopping him. Plus its Belkar.

I like the name Not-Durkon, but I don't think I can find a way to successfully paraphrase the entire "Not Nale, Not-Nale. Thog help Nale nail Not-Nale, not Nale. and Thog knot Not-Nale while Nale nail Not-Nale. Nale, not Not-Nale, now nail Not-Nale by leaving Not-Nale, not Nale, in jail.". Of course, it would be complicated with "Durkon" not really being a homonym for any other word in English... Maybe "dirk on" as in setting a dagger on something else, but eh.... no. Not going to work.

[davidbofinger]

throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking

As I see it, Roy deliberately did the most unpleasant thing he could without technically making an attack. He was hoping to provoke the Frontarch into attacking him so he could destroy her and claim self-defence. A little risky, given he doesn't know the legal definition of attack, and it didn't work, but apparently he thought it worth a try.

[Jasdoif]

Why was that staff considered the property of the Church of Hel?Almost certainly, the claim was made solely because she wanted to get the staff back, as befits the protocols of Spontaneous Frontarchians.

[One Skunk Todd]

Because it has to be said: "Oh SNAP!"

[Nimrod's Son]

Alternatively, the phonetic transcription is right by default and "fear-en-gil-sniks" is a fair English-based approximation.
How can a multi-syllabic phonetic translation ever be "right by default" if it has no primary stress?

[One Skunk Todd]

This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

Is it an attack if it does 0hp of damage?

[Omnicras]

Roy is getting very good at the game the high prists play

[enh]

"I got a cool little nightlight with my name on it."

That's a cute way for him to remember Roy's Archon with his fuzzy memories. :smallsmile: I wonder if this means he doesn't remember the task he asked Roy's Archon to do for him before he left.

The fact that Roy remembers anything that specific feels wrong.

When he first returned, it was all "big warm fuzzy experience" with no details, plus "an idea for a cool sword move". Now he remembers the Mom-balaya and how the Archon appeared and was identified.

I'm totally okay if some other (future?) strip has Roy talking about how he's remembering more and more details, or that the memories are clearer on holy ground, etc, etc -- some in-universe explanation, whatever it is. But if this is just cheating on part of the author... *ptptptptptptpt*

Still an awesome strip!

[Carl]

Hold on, throwing a thing at someone's face can definitely be construed as an attack. Why would Roy assume that a weak throw with non-lethal intent is any less of a cause for his own destruction than using a throwing weapon?


Probably been ninja'd but does D&D 3.5 even have rules for throwing stuff to people in a potentially non-damaging way, i don't remember hearing/reading of any? It's perfectly possible Roy can claim to actually be returning them while doing something that's damaging.



When he first returned, it was all "big warm fuzzy experience" with no details, plus "an idea for a cool sword move". Now he remembers the Mom-balaya and how the Archon appeared and was identified.

I'm totally okay if some other (future?) strip has Roy talking about how he's remembering more and more details, or that the memories are clearer on holy ground, etc, etc -- some in-universe explanation, whatever it is. But if this is just cheating on part of the author...

Like the oracle he's read the book.

[Blisstake]

Hm, so one of the priests mentioned that killing the priest of Hel could result in "[Being killed] in ways even we couldn't fix."

Seems very likely that Belkar ends up killing the priest, gets killed by almost everyone in the Godsmoot, and can't get revived afterward. But I guess we'll have to see.

[Peelee]

Who said anything about Roy attacking? The bodyguard protection is to keep him from being attacked by priests who aren't happy with his actions. And as mentioned, priests are allowed two bodyguards.

Or he could go without protection and defend himself if necessary. Or some of the priests could heal him til he got out of dodge. Or some of the priests could stand in the way of any attack on him.

If he was made a bodyguard again, he'd have a formal role, and thus be sequestered. Pretty sure that's the opposite of what he wants.

[Porthos]

*reads the first three pages of reactons*

:smallsigh: :smallsigh: :smallsigh:

I'm having a sudden flashback to all of the arguing over whether or not Belkar "attacked" Miko in this strip, thus triggering his Mark of Justice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html).

Just... :smallsigh:

I can't bear to see if it kept going after the third page. :smalltongue:

==========

Fantastic and hilarious strip, BTW. I think part of my frustration is seeing a fantastic comic and getting.... Well, not the reaction I expected by some in the reaction thread.:smalltongue:

[DaggerPen]

To: New High Priest of Hel
From: Roy
Re:kt

I laughed entirely too hard.


Why was that staff considered the property of the Church of Hel?

It was Malack's. He was a priest of Jergal. Durkon only got it because Malack died. I don't recall any sort of transfer of registered ownership.

"Our church has a strict 'finders keepers' policy with regards to our property - you find it, we keep it. Prove otherwise."

[Darth Paul]

Petty revenge is the best kind of revenge.

[dtilque]

Now get out of there before the Yes voters realize that your newly missing official status means you can be legally attacked, Roy.

If the Yes-voters were paying attention to the fight with Durkula, they'd know Roy can lay down some serious smack, even against spell casters. They probably don't know that it's an undead-bane enhanced effect, so they won't want to risk a fight with him.


So, the vampires out front are still protected by the last casting of that spell with the staff for how long?

Protection from Daylight is not a standard D&D spell; it's homebrew. So we don't know how long it lasts. However, a reasonable guess is that it lasts 1 hour/level. If so, it depends how it was cast. If from the staff, then most likely the level applied would be Malack's, which was level 12. If Durkula learned the spell (which I'm fairly sure he has), it could be with his caster level, which is 14 or 15. In either case, it will last until long after sunset.

BTW, there's only one vampire out front, or at least we've only seen one.

[Ruck]

Why was that staff considered the property of the Church of Hel?

It was Malack's. He was a priest of Jergal. Durkon only got it because Malack died. I don't recall any sort of transfer of registered ownership.

Not-Durkon showed up to the Moot with the staff, and there's an old saying about possession being nine-tenths of the law that I think applies here. (Or at least, since not-Durkon walked in with the staff, the Moot assumes it is his staff.)


The fact that Roy remembers anything that specific feels wrong.

When he first returned, it was all "big warm fuzzy experience" with no details, plus "an idea for a cool sword move". Now he remembers the Mom-balaya and how the Archon appeared and was identified.

I'm totally okay if some other (future?) strip has Roy talking about how he's remembering more and more details, or that the memories are clearer on holy ground, etc, etc -- some in-universe explanation, whatever it is. But if this is just cheating on part of the author... *ptptptptptptpt*

Still an awesome strip!

Explanation here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20398929&postcount=1218

[Onyavar]

Indeed, it's actually pronounceable otherwise: Fear-en-gil-sniks. :smalltongue:


Maybe we should call him that!

Actually, once you know how to say that, it's easy. Pay attention to not pronounce the non-vocalized e and i in "-en-gil-"
For all of us who know the phonetic alphabet: [fyːrŋlˌsnɪks]


Can I just point out that your phonetic transcription is way off? [y] is the German ü; the vowel in "fear" is [i:]. The suggested pronunciation "fear-en-gil-sniks" is four syllables, with a hard [g] after the [ŋ]. You're missing a syllable, and you have a secondary stress marker but no primary stress. In short, you want:

[ˈfiːrəŋɡəlˌsnɪks]

In fact, my phonetic transcription is exactly how I pronounce Phyrnglsnyx. I also admit to have little idea how the english "syllable transcription system" works, I just copied the transcription that emperordaniel provided.

So what? Call me a reformed Phyrnglsnyxer (Fürnglsnixer) , while emperordaniel is an orthodox Phyrnglsnyxer (Fearengilsnyxer).

[hroþila]

How can a multi-syllabic phonetic translation ever be "right by default" if it has no primary stress?
By being a broad transcription for a language that has a fixed stress, for example.

[Dracon1us]

ahaha great punchline!

[Max™]

In fact, my phonetic transcription is exactly how I pronounce Phyrnglsnyx. I also admit to have little idea how the english "syllable transcription system" works, I just copied the transcription that emperordaniel provided.

So what? Call me a reformed Phyrnglsnyxer (Fürnglsnixer) , while emperordaniel is an orthodox Phyrnglsnyxer (Fearengilsnyxer).

Oh oh oh, I get to be a member of The Latter Day .gif-rhymes-with-the-peanut-butter-and-Phyrnglsnyx-has-the-same-soft-g Saints then!

[warmachine]

Roy may have made an impetuous mistake. The new High Priest of Hel can accuse Roy of vandalism and the Godsmoot isn't so polarised that a majority will disagree in the face of the obvious. The appropriate punishment for vandalism is unknown as not all the rules are known but it's unlikely property can be blatantly damaged without consequence. The consequence might come later but there's little point in deliberately inviting it, especially over a magic item that's probably drained and useless.

[Rift_Wolf]

In fact, my phonetic transcription is exactly how I pronounce Phyrnglsnyx. I also admit to have little idea how the english "syllable transcription system" works, I just copied the transcription that emperordaniel provided.

So what? Call me a reformed Phyrnglsnyxer (Fürnglsnixer) , while emperordaniel is an orthodox Phyrnglsnyxer (Fearengilsnyxer).

I love how an argument has broken out over the correct pronunciation of Phyrnglsnyx, given its origins.

Also love the comic! Loose plot elements snapped! Rules lawyered! At least three of my speculations crushed into a fine pink powder!

[Keltest]

As I see it, Roy deliberately did the most unpleasant thing he could without technically making an attack. He was hoping to provoke the Frontarch into attacking him so he could destroy her and claim self-defence. A little risky, given he doesn't know the legal definition of attack, and it didn't work, but apparently he thought it worth a try.

I think youre over thinking it. Roy just broke the staff out of spite then sassed her.

[Werbaer]

The fact that Roy remembers anything that specific feels wrong.

When he first returned, it was all "big warm fuzzy experience" with no details, plus "an idea for a cool sword move". Now he remembers the Mom-balaya and how the Archon appeared and was identified.
He remembers the things that happened on the cloud. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) He was there with his Archon (twice), and took the Mom-balaya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html) down with him in the elevator.

[Rift_Wolf]

I think youre over thinking it. Roy just broke the staff out of spite then sassed her.

Wasn't just spite. If fPOH could research the spells contained (as Phyrnglsnyx had been doing) then she could've spread the vampire plague across the surface as well as the Dwarven underground.
Also from a story perspective, this is tying up a lot of loose threads. What spells are in the staff? How many charges are left? Is it even the right staff?
*snap* IT DOESN'T MATTER

[DaggerPen]

Roy may have made an impetuous mistake. The new High Priest of Hel can accuse Roy of vandalism and the Godsmoot isn't so polarised that a majority will disagree in the face of the obvious. The appropriate punishment for vandalism is unknown as not all the rules are known but it's unlikely property can be blatantly damaged without consequence. The consequence might come later but there's little point in deliberately inviting it, especially over a magic item that's probably drained and useless.

I imagine it's probably against the rules for anyone with official Godsmoot status.

Of course, since Roy just lost said status, the rules probably don't have the power to deliver any sort of sanction against him (I doubt anything short of attacking a high priest can really be punished by execution, and lesser offenses seem more likely to just involve kicking the offender out or imposing a sanction on the offender's church. After all, while harmony is key to the Godsmoot, the gods have to have agreed to these rules, and I have a hard time seeing most of the gods agreeing to "Yes, my high priest can be summarily executed over a minor offense"), making enforcement a bit tricky (anything but execution, expulsion or imprisonment seems a bit difficult to enforce on someone with no official status) unless one of the individual High Priests feels like taking advantage of his lack of protection for some smiting.

[Bulldog Psion]

Roy may have made an impetuous mistake. The new High Priest of Hel can accuse Roy of vandalism and the Godsmoot isn't so polarised that a majority will disagree in the face of the obvious. The appropriate punishment for vandalism is unknown as not all the rules are known but it's unlikely property can be blatantly damaged without consequence. The consequence might come later but there's little point in deliberately inviting it, especially over a magic item that's probably drained and useless.

At which point, Roy could probably claim that the staff belonged to Durkon/Lurky Corpsewhiskers, and not to Macey Shadows, in the same way he's Lurky's bodyguard and not Macey's bodyguard. Then he could escape during the 5 hours of confusion that would ensue while the priests debated whether or not the convoluted rules of the Godsmoot cover this. :smallwink:

Anyway, I like the comic. Plenty of interesting Roy snark.

[Sir_Leorik]

Great to see Roy stick it to the new HPoH. :smallwink:

[Rinazina]

This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

I'm going to do a personal joke now, no offence intended ...

It is not they you had very bad Dungeon Master who want to use every misspelling as reason to frustrate/kill the player ? Because this is exactly the kind of alarm will raise such player/victim :) I had that kind of D.M, too... but after some years of paranoia-precisions now I'm OK.

That "attack" is clearly an harmless fun behaviour, without any needs to look on a comic inconsistency.

I wonder more, if the Hulk Mode, is providing Heal+Restoration or just Heal ... and how can works the triggering of such benefit now

[Jay R]

This feels badly written. Good job throwing a weapon in the face of someone right after you talk rules-lawyering and avoiding repercussions for attacking, now the next chapter can declare that you broke the rules and need to be killed. Oh wait, that's not going to happen because the giant didn't think things through and doesn't want his ****-up to derail everything. So I guess it arbitrarily doesn't count.

It's not arbitrary. This world works by D&D logic, not ours. For instance, Good and Evil are objectively defined, and objectively measured by the right Detect spell. But attacks are also objectively defined. Whatever you plan to do, it isn't an attack unless you roll a d20. You can always decide not to attack just by not rolling the die. Therefore, if Roy decides that it isn't an attack, it isn't.


Durkon's thrall (I forgot his name) had stated in #1016 that he had gotten the teleportation orb so that they could dominate they dwarven elders. Since he doesn't have the staff... well i don't know if dominate and vampirise are the same thing. I don't play D&D, so can someone please tell me if I'm right? :smallconfused:

You've actually seen Dominate in the strip. Dominate is forcing somebody to do something against his or her will. It was used on Belkar to make him jump off the ship, without draining his blood to turn him into a vampire.


...hm, actually, hang on. Do they need to race to the gate to try to beat Xykon as originally intended? Or do they now have to race to the dwarves, to deal with Durkula, so that the vote still fails?

It doesn't matter which order they do it in. The Mechane has enough speed to get them to each place just barely in the nick of time.


I think Roy has Expressive Single Digit as an innate ability.

Don't we all?


Hah, I actually completely forgot about the staff.

...Unfortunately, its destruction isn't going to mean much in terms of slowing him and the other vampires down. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html) Makes you wonder how many times he'll be able to cast Protection from Daylight per day, which presumably means not being able to expand his little squad much, but other than that, this probably won't be much more than a temporary hiccup. If that.

Remember that depriving Malack of the staff was a crucial part of the successful plan to kill him. Dispel Magic in the sunshine is now deadly to the Vampire In Durkon's Body (ViDB).

[8BitNinja]

Cue the Nosferatu reference in about 10 strips

[Jay R]

I predict that we will soon have a new candidate for most quoted line from the Order of the Stick. So let's get started.


Do the Godsmoot rules include a "she literally asked for it" clause? If so, he should have spoken the disclaimer then "delivered" the pieces of the staff directly to her heart.

Of course not. That wouldn't be "the single most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it."


So... couldn't Wrecan kill Veldrina, since her god also voted "yes"? It would take all of ten minutes to resurrect her afterwards...

Perhaps, but that's not "the single most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it." The writer isn't going to simplify the life of the Order of the Stick and take away Rich's plot.


Why was that staff considered the property of the Church of Hel?

It was Malack's. He was a priest of Jergal. Durkon only got it because Malack died. I don't recall any sort of transfer of registered ownership.

Because that was "the single most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it."

[SmaugTheYounger]

Goddamit, this all comes down to Malack. WHy did you have to vampirise Durkon???:smallfrown:

Actually, one could argue it started with an "Oops." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html)

Talk about butterfly effect...

[rman]

Roy's reputation among any fighters present is going through the roof.

- spell splinter
- going mano-o-mano with a high level cleric/vampire
- attitude

[IDrankWHAT]

My guess of what would happen:
GPD(Guy Pretending to be Durkon) goes to the dwarven lands, but encounters Durkon's mum/friends and Durkon starts fighting back. He manages to hold distract GPD long enough for OOTS to come over and defeat GPD.
My guess anyways, idk how that would actually work out, but its my guess...

SO glad that I'm not the only one who's thinking that Durkon will fight back with all his will once he sees his mother. I know I would if I hadn't seen mine because of circumstances beyond my control. But then again Giant knows what he's doing.

[Byzantine2]

I think this is both how Belkar dies and why he stays dead. He's going to go "**** it" kill the vampire, and be killed in some unfixable way in the process. This will save the world, but the damage to the Dwarven lands is still certain as Durkula is already there.

Roy won't die as he technically has no involvement in these events.

He's evil and has very little care for anything, but he really, really hates vampires, and has shown a reckless disregard for his own life to harm those he hates. (Under the presumption he would just the raised after, see what happened with Miko).

[drazen]

Roy could be intentionally provoking the new High Priest of Hel. He might not have protection as an outsider, but he did escort Veldrina.

Is there anything saying a bodyguard cannot be the bodyguard of two DIFFERENT representatives at the moot? The rules say each priest has a maximum of two, but they don't mention overlap. If the vampire attacks Roy over his pettiness, she'd have to get smacked down by everyone present.

[GreatWyrmGold]

:roy: I just guessed the single most frustrating way to rules-lawyer it.

To rephrase it, the rules are such that the simple solutions don't work, allowing the plot to continue.
It really says something about this arc that this is the best way to figure out the rules of the Godsmoot, and that's not a thing I'm glad can be said.

[8BitNinja]

What would happen if a bunch of casters killed Durkon in a way he couldn't be revived?

[Keltest]

What would happen if a bunch of casters killed Durkon in a way he couldn't be revived?

Such a way technically doesn't exist, as True Resurrection is a spell that hypothetically exists. However it is functionally out of reach for the Order, so... I guess Durkon would stay dead? And it would suck?

[8BitNinja]

Such a way technically doesn't exist, as True Resurrection is a spell that hypothetically exists. However it is functionally out of reach for the Order, so... I guess Durkon would stay dead? And it would suck?

But that's stupid

so it won't happen I guess

[Keltest]

But that's stupid

so it won't happen I guess

It strikes me as rather unlikely, yes.

[Spoomeister]

It doesn't matter which order they do it in. The Mechane has enough speed to get them to each place just barely in the nick of time.


Ha! I forgot about that completely, very good point. It'd be hilarious if that comes up again sans Julio.

[ReaderAt2046]

Once it's broken, its no longer magical.So it's presently a broken nonmagical stick.

And since the chances that Macey Fangface can cast Protection From Daylight on her own are slim to none, the clock's now ticking. Once the Protection spell already on her runs out, then sunlight will become a lethal threat. And the church has those nice huge glass windows...

[Doug Lampert]

Given that Xykon's signature move for beating down tough opponents is spamming Energy Drain--an attack for which it is ordinarily hard to come up with a decent defense against, explaining why an epic level wizard like Dorukan was so readily slaughtered by it--Roy having an item which can make it a momentary annoyance is bound to be rather significant going forward. Fire and gravity--which was mostly what killed him last time--are a tad easier to defend against.
This is wrong. Energy drain is level 9, yet there's a level four spell that provides complete immunity, so it's fairly easy to block.

Unfortunately you need a divine caster (or a limited wish spell) to cast it:

Death Ward
Necromancy
Level: Clr 4, Death 4, Drd 5, Pal 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.

This spell doesn’t remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, nor does it affect the saving throw necessary 24 hours after gaining a negative level.

Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks even if those attacks might be lethal.

[Jasdoif]

And since the chances that Macey Fangface can cast Protection From Daylight on her own are slim to none, the clock's now ticking. Once the Protection spell already on her runs out, then sunlight will become a lethal threat. And the church has those nice huge glass windows...I don't think sunlight will be a problem, actually. On top of it needing to be direct sunlight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm#vampireWeaknesses), and how she'll have the opportunity to get out of the exposure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html)....I don't think the staircases (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html) have windows.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Dangit, Roy, that's a priceless historical artifact in the making! In ten thousand years, that staff will be over ten thousand years old!

Send it to a museum!

[DaggerPen]

This is wrong. Energy drain is level 9, yet there's a level four spell that provides complete immunity, so it's fairly easy to block.

Unfortunately you need a divine caster (or a limited wish spell) to cast it:

Indeed, I believe there's even a mass version of it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html)

[eilandesq]

This is wrong. Energy drain is level 9, yet there's a level four spell that provides complete immunity, so it's fairly easy to block.

Unfortunately you need a divine caster (or a limited wish spell) to cast it:

Which is why V. didn't have the option to use it (rules of the deal with the fiends), and Dorukan may simply not have had it prepared (which should probably lose him his Batman Wizard license, since any epic level wizard with an ounce of common sense will have Limited Wish prepared at least once, and probably Wish on top of it in case a resurrection is needed).

So yes, if you've got access to clerical magic and have that spell prepared, there is a defense against Energy Drain.

[Bulldog Psion]

I don't think sunlight will be a problem, actually. On top of it needing to be direct sunlight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm#vampireWeaknesses), and how she'll have the opportunity to get out of the exposure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html)....I don't think the staircases (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1005.html) have windows.

Exactly. I'd imagine she can even stay in the council chamber if she's careful -- it's not a glass dome, that gallery is going to create an area of shade inside no matter what angle the sun is relative to the interior.

[Quibblicious]

this may be relevant
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html

That's a brilliant catch! I'd never noticed the speech bubble change on that strip and I've read it a dozen times or more.

[DaggerPen]

That's a brilliant catch! I'd never noticed the speech bubble change on that strip and I've read it a dozen times or more.

FWIW, after the soulful dirge for the departed comic, I'd interpreted the speech bubble differences Malack had as speaking with lungs vs. The Deep Booming Vibrations of Pure Dark Energy

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Thanks again, mr.Giant.

Well, technically this was a weak attempt at catching the broken staff. Not an attack.

Also, can we say that they were chatting when Roy snapped the staff?
Or that the failed attempt to catch the broken sticks resulted in a chat to the vamp's face?
If either way, then I now know what snapchat is... [waving my ears like Fozzy Bear from The Muppet Show]
My apologies for the weak attempt at humour :smallsmile:

[blunk]

Actually, one could argue it started with an "Oops." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html)

Talk about butterfly effect...So it was Haley's fault, but Roy blames himself? Rogue evades, fighter takes the hit.

[IDrankWHAT]

Thanks again, mr.Giant.

Well, technically this was a weak attempt at catching the broken staff. Not an attack.

Also, can we say that they were chatting when Roy snapped the staff?
Or that the failed attempt to catch the broken sticks resulted in a chat to the vamp's face?
If either way, then I now know what snapchat is... [waving my ears like Fozzy Bear from The Muppet Show]
My apologies for the weak attempt at humour :smallsmile:

Bull hockey! That was friggin hilarious! LOL:smalltongue:

[gia]

Too bad, It was such a nice stick.

Hold on, throwing a thing at someone's face can definitely be construed as an attack. Why would Roy assume that a weak throw with non-lethal intent is any less of a cause for his own destruction than using a throwing weapon?

yeah and he threw a splintered wooden thing! a stake!

if the vamp is smart she can getroyin trouble, although maybe she decides he lost already and doesnt need to risk her undoing

[Ruck]

yeah and he threw a splintered wooden thing! a stake!

if the vamp is smart she can getroyin trouble, although maybe she decides he lost already and doesnt need to risk her undoing

Haha, now I'm laughing at the thought of Roy throwing the stick and "accidentally" dusting HPoH II, then trying to argue "What? I was just trying to return their property!"

[Silverionmox]

The Vampire Formerly Known As Durkon could have reduced the risk much more (and reduced the risk of the Order coming after him) by simply whispering to the usher that not only was he entering as Hel's high priest, but also that those two schmucks following him were *not* his bodyguard, and therefore should be denied entrance. But I suppose the urge to gloat was too strong :)

[Gnoman]

That would have shown his hand too early - Roy would have known then that something was up, and even if the ushers whisked the vampire away, the resulting commotion would probably have alerted the priests that Hel was sending a representative, possibly convincing otherwise Yes gods to vote No.

[enh]

Explanation here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20398929&postcount=1218

Ah. Okay. I don't do the twitter thing, missed all that. Thank you for the pointer.

[DaggerPen]

That would have shown his hand too early - Roy would have known then that something was up, and even if the ushers whisked the vampire away, the resulting commotion would probably have alerted the priests that Hel was sending a representative, possibly convincing otherwise Yes gods to vote No.

While I buy the vampire being concerned about showing his hand just before the most crucial part of the plan (rather than after the vote, where Roy being able to attack the then-HPOH may not have been foreseen anyway), I find it unlikely that just knowing that Hel had shown up would have swayed any of the Yes voters regardless, even if they would have been swayed to change their vote if they'd known Hel's plan.

I mean, it's not like Hel wouldn’t have gotten the dwarven souls if she hadn't been able to vote but the Godsmoot still voted Yes, after all. Everything but the likelihood of "Yes" passing was exactly the same with or without her having a representative - her presence was a shock, but didn't give away the game.

Gods though they may be, I doubt a single Yes voter would have made the jump from "Wow, Hel finally got a delegate and the world might be about to end?" to "She's gonna get all the dwarven souls and take over!" Before Hel said anything, either no one considered the dwarf situation, or anyone who did realize it didn't find it important enough to sway them/mention in their vote.

Heck, if she hadn't decided to gloat about it, I imagine even Heimdall would have shrugged, gone "Well, she's the death goddess, no surprise she's in our court" and maybe frowned in vague disapproval at her shenanigans with the dwarves, even if it was in support of his vote.

[BriarHobbit]

Very nice. Not sure why Roy doesn't need healing. He got hit by multiple Energy Drains and other nefarious attacks. One healing potion probably should not have fixed it. The priest of Baldur being clueless was funny. Still no news on Belkar. That is not good, but I think that he makes it.

[goodpeople25]

Very nice. Not sure why Roy doesn't need healing. He got hit by multiple Energy Drains and other nefarious attacks. One healing potion probably should not have fixed it. The priest of Baldur being clueless was funny. Still no news on Belkar. That is not good, but I think that he makes it.
One healing potion didn't fix it. He lost all damage marks after activating his greenhilt rage so presumably so is all damage. now sure he might have negative levels but i think him saying he dosen't need healing is indicative that he healed that as well.

[zoofroot]

Protection from Daylight is not a standard D&D spell; it's homebrew. So we don't know how long it lasts. However, a reasonable guess is that it lasts 1 hour/level. If so, it depends how it was cast. If from the staff, then most likely the level applied would be Malack's, which was level 12. If Durkula learned the spell (which I'm fairly sure he has), it could be with his caster level, which is 14 or 15. In either case, it will last until long after sunset.


Spells cast from staves take the user's caster level, not the creator's.

[pjackson]

Fifty imaginary bucks says that next time we see Belkar he's going to be casually strolling past a pile of dead vampires that he just killed.
The drama at the church is over now after all. The real problem now is catching up to Not-Durkon and stopping him. Plus its Belkar.

You do realize that Belkar is not some super warrior.
He's very good at killing weak creatures (worth no xp) but not so good against stronger creatures, particularly ones with DR like vampires.
Plus his will save is terrible.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

You do realize that Belkar is not some super warrior.
He's very good at killing weak creatures (worth no xp) but not so good against stronger creatures, particularly ones with DR like vampires.

The Collision dagger Tarquin dropped seemed to get through Durkula's DR quite nicely when Belkar tested it out on him in #960.



Plus his will save is terrible.
Which is why he bought the clasp of Protection Against Evil back in #969.

[8BitNinja]

Which is why he bought the clasp of Protection Against Evil back in #969.

Checkov's Gun?

Or Checkov's Clasp?

[Shining Wrath]

Very nice. Not sure why Roy doesn't need healing. He got hit by multiple Energy Drains and other nefarious attacks. One healing potion probably should not have fixed it. The priest of Baldur being clueless was funny. Still no news on Belkar. That is not good, but I think that he makes it.

Roy is evidently completely healed by Hulk Mode of his sword.


The Collision dagger Tarquin dropped seemed to get through Durkula's DR quite nicely when Belkar tested it out on him in #960.


Which is why he bought the clasp of Protection Against Evil back in #969.

Unless that was one of the daggers dropped in 996 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html). Since he was probably using his best weapons, it's likely the collision dagger is lying around in the temple somewhere.

[F.Harr]

Yay Roy! Fighting with SARCHASM!

Oh, this is going to be a long book.

Joy!

[Doug Lampert]

Spells cast from staves take the user's caster level, not the creator's.

They use whichever is higher of the item level or the character level.


Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

However, the level of the staff isn't necessarily the caster level of the maker. Example staffs have a level of 8, or the lowest level able to cast all the spells in the staff (whichever is higher). A custom staff is likely to follow that precedent, since if you use the suggested pricing formula it makes the staff cheaper to do so.

[Ruck]

You do realize that Belkar is not some super warrior.
He's very good at killing weak creatures (worth no xp) but not so good against stronger creatures
What are you basing this on?

Checkov's Gun?

Or Checkov's Clasp?
Technically, it's already been fired, in #996.

[8BitNinja]

Technically, it's already been fired, in #996.

Then it is Chekov's Boomerang

[Kantaki]

Technically, it's already been fired, in #996.


Then it is Chekov's Boomerang

Eh, any halfway useful gun can be fired more than once. No need to call it anything else.:smalltongue:

[Havelocke]

So alas, poor Belkar will end up getting tossed by the Goliath Vamp through a window. This will end up turning the new High Priestess into ash, thus being interpreted by the gathered priests as an attack on the priestess. They will kill poor Belkar and not be able to resurrect him due to some stupid Godsmoot rule. He will be confused and hurt as to why he is being killed and Roy won't be able to stop it...horrible way to go.

[Breccia]

So alas, poor Belkar will end up getting tossed by the Goliath Vamp through a window. This will end up turning the new High Priestess into ash, thus being interpreted by the gathered priests as an attack on the priestess. They will kill poor Belkar and not be able to resurrect him due to some stupid Godsmoot rule. He will be confused and hurt as to why he is being killed and Roy won't be able to stop it...horrible way to go.

I find this unlikely.

Clerics have high Wisdom scores, traditionally, which means they are capable of sound logical reasoning. If a vampire throws Belkar through a window, it would be very, very illogical to assume Belkar was the one making the attack.

EDIT: In fact, since Belkar could still have been a bodyguard when he was attacked, and the hammer-wielding vampire was not, it could be Mandatory Undead Target Practice when they see the combat continue.

I find it more likely that V will begin the search for Belkar, since Roy knows where he is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html) and will tell V upon arrival, any second now.

[8BitNinja]

What if something happened like

All the vampires just died like the martians in War of the Worlds?

[Breccia]

What if something happened like

All the vampires just died like the martians in War of the Worlds?

If I had a rules for Good Writing 101, one of the first would be "Never copy anything done in Star Wars Episode 1".

[Kantaki]

If I had a rules for Good Writing 101, one of the first would be "Never copy anything done in Star Wars Episode 1".

So the vampires won't die because some random kid destroyed their mothership?:smalltongue:
Not that the War of the Worlds version is any better...

[Breccia]

So the vampires won't die because some random kid destroyed their mothership?

Precisely. And it's a closer parallel than my snarky response indicates.

The droids in Ep 1 "died" with the destruction of the only remaining Trade Ship (why was there just the one, again? whatever) implying they were kept moving and active by either an energy source, or their live-feed orders, by that ship. This is stupid. Droids in the rest of the Star Wars universe were never shown, or even implied, to have this flaw. Nor is there any reason to believe there'd be a last-second "everyone die" message broadcast from the exploding ship, either.

Vampires, including those in OotS, are implied to work the same way. They have their own energy source, and self-contained mental facilities. Their unlife is not being beamed to them from Hel, nor is she micromanaging all of their actions. Both of these are specifically shown in OotS strips to be the case. Even something as cataclysmic as "Hel is eaten by the Snarl" would very likely leave every single vampire moving, and if anything, really angry.

Or maybe the original poster was suggesting a variant of familicide, which quite frankly, I don't see happening either. That topic is kind of a red flag, and the only caster I can think of who could do it is Xykon. It is unknown if Xykon has enough information and motivation to know about the dwarf vampire threat to start writing up such a spell in time.

[Kantaki]

Precisely. And it's a closer parallel than my snarky response indicates.

The droids in Ep 1 "died" with the destruction of the only remaining Trade Ship (why was there just the one, again? whatever) implying they were kept moving and active by either an energy source, or their live-feed orders, by that ship. This is stupid. Droids in the rest of the Star Wars universe were never shown, or even implied, to have this flaw. Nor is there any reason to believe there'd be a last-second "everyone die" message broadcast from the exploding ship, either.

Vampires, including those in OotS, are implied to work the same way. They have their own energy source, and self-contained mental facilities. Their unlife is not being beamed to them from Hel, nor is she micromanaging all of their actions. Both of these are specifically shown in OotS strips to be the case. Even something as cataclysmic as "Hel is eaten by the Snarl" would very likely leave every single vampire moving, and if anything, really angry.

Or maybe the original poster was suggesting a variant of familicide, which quite frankly, I don't see happening either. That topic is kind of a red flag, and the only caster I can think of who could do it is Xykon. It is unknown if Xykon has enough information and motivation to know about the dwarf vampire threat to start writing up such a spell in time.

Since the martians in War of the Worlds died from
Earth’s diseases I assume 8bitninja meant that the vampires die of something equivalent, like the sun.
As I said, not any better than the SW version. The only difference is that one is a classic and one... not. What both have in common is that the Giant is unlikely to use them.

[Jasdoif]

The droids in Ep 1 "died" with the destruction of the only remaining Trade Ship (why was there just the one, again? whatever) implying they were kept moving and active by either an energy source, or their live-feed orders, by that ship. This is stupid. Droids in the rest of the Star Wars universe were never shown, or even implied, to have this flaw.I'm curious why you seem to think every droid should function the exact same way as every other droid. And for that matter, why you think a droid control ship would be called a droid control ship if there weren't droids controlled by a ship.

[8BitNinja]

If I had a rules for Good Writing 101, one of the first would be "Never copy anything done in Star Wars Episode 1".

Okay, don't kill Liam Neeson, got it

[Kantaki]

I'm curious why you seem to think every droid should function the exact same way as every other droid. And for that matter, why you think a droid control ship would be called a droid control ship if there weren't droids controlled by a ship.

It still is a silly weakpoint. Especially since A) No other droids have it and B) it only appears in Episode 1. Sure, the Trade Federation could have learned from it, but it still is a ridiculous way to resolve things. Having the Viceroy send a shut down order after being captured would have made more sense.

[Quibblicious]

So the vampires won't die because some random kid destroyed their mothership?:smalltongue:
Not that the War of the Worlds version is any better...

The original reasoning in War of the Worlds made sense, at least. Slightly deus ex machina, but at least there was applicable logic, which fit what we'd seen happening in collisions of long separated cultures -- The Black Death ravaging Europe, Brits dying from tropical diseases in the Caribbean and southern Asia, Mayans dying from smallpox from the Spaniards, North American native populations ravaged by disease from a couple encounters with Europeans, etc. Heck, most of the time the affected population was wiped out or severely reduced whether the other population was intending to do it or not.

Episode 1 was just pure crap, a contrived ending that had nothing to do with any of the main character's intentional actions. It was a crappy revamp of the end of Independence Day.

[Keltest]

It still is a silly weakpoint. Especially since A) No other droids have it and B) it only appears in Episode 1. Sure, the Trade Federation could have learned from it, but it still is a ridiculous way to resolve things. Having the Viceroy send a shut down order after being captured would have made more sense.

Theyre a mercantile organization, not a para-military group. They need a bunch of cheap robot arms to hold guns, possibly attached to cheap robot legs to relocate them. The planet had a grand total of less than a dozen ships.

[Bobblit]

Yay, lots of new strips lately!

Roy is getting more and more genre-savvy, isn't he :smallamused:

[8BitNinja]

Theyre a mercantile organization, not a para-military group. They need a bunch of cheap robot arms to hold guns, possibly attached to cheap robot legs to relocate them. The planet had a grand total of less than a dozen ships.

There's also the production time, the cheap battle droids would be good because you can build an army very quickly

[Jasdoif]

It still is a silly weakpoint. Especially since A) No other droids have it and B) it only appears in Episode 1. Sure, the Trade Federation could have learned from it, but it still is a ridiculous way to resolve things.Until Episode I, had we even seen droids operate in large numbers? Doesn't seem fair to expect some sort of conformance from the first time a particular scenario was seen.


Having the Viceroy send a shut down order after being captured would have made more sense.I don't think it would, actually....That would require the Viceroy having sole access, or his subordinates giving up on their own chances for safety...both of which would run counter to the general "cowardice" trait which was the primary characteristic assigned to the Neimoidians involved in the blockade. Having their super valuable droid control stuff stuck on a big ship away from where the battle droids were battling at least fits with the mindset.

There are plenty of things wrong with Episode I to find. I don't see why there should be cause to stretch for any.

[Bobblit]

There's also the production time, the cheap battle droids would be good because you can build an army very quickly

That's what the Trade Federation gets for moving production to cheaper locations, huh? :smallbiggrin:

But, seriously. Barely anything in Episode I made sense at all. (Although it would be rather funny if all the vampires deactivated like those droids...)

[Kantaki]

The original reasoning in War of the Worlds made sense, at least. Slightly deus ex machina, but at least there was applicable logic, which fit what we'd seen happening in collisions of long separated cultures -- The Black Death ravaging Europe, Brits dying from tropical diseases in the Caribbean and southern Asia, Mayans dying from smallpox from the Spaniards, North American native populations ravaged by disease from a couple encounters with Europeans, etc. Heck, most of the time the affected population was wiped out or severely reduced whether the other population was intending to do it or not.

Episode 1 was just pure crap, a contrived ending that had nothing to do with any of the main character's intentional actions. It was a crappy revamp of the end of Independence Day.

Sure made it sense. It certainly was more realistic than most other alien invasion-stories that don't end with humanity loosing. But it still is a boring solution. And just like the E1/ Independence Day version it is unlike to happen to Durkula and friends.


Theyre a mercantile organization, not a para-military group. They need a bunch of cheap robot arms to hold guns, possibly attached to cheap robot legs to relocate them. The planet had a grand total of less than a dozen ships.

Sure, a mercantile organization, that's why they have enough firepower to conquer planets.
I mean the blockade is one thing, but that massive army? Why do they have that many troops. Not to mention that they join the Separatists to get back at Padme and the Jedi. What kind of mercantile organization does that?
No, don't answer that. It will only depress me.
Not to mention that it might be slightly off-topic.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm curious why you seem to think every droid should function the exact same way as every other droid. And for that matter, why you think a droid control ship would be called a droid control ship if there weren't droids controlled by a ship.

I don't particularly object to the ending of Ep1, that would be very,very low on my list of problems with the prequels actually. But some level of local autonomy would seem better than having absolutely everything go through the control ship. The droids talked, to each other even IIRC. Which means that they either weren't entirely controlled from the ship, or that the ship's droid control units handled what are effectively internal communications on the ship by radioing a droid on the planet, having it speak, having another droid hear it, having the second droid send back to the ship, and having presumably the same computer now receive the (delayed and distorted) message it had sent.

Seems somehow wasteful.

Not to mention the bandwidth requirements for full visual and movement sensors going up and for full action orders coming down.

The droids presumably have at least limited autonomy. They shouldn't all fall down when the control ship blows up.

But if the local control is limited, then what they SHOULD do is stop shooting (no fire release and you don't want limited local autonomy to include shooting things), stop all large scale coordinated actions, and probably stand around awaiting orders.

Which has roughly the same effect as "they all fall down" but is less clear to the viewer. Which is why I don't object.

"They all fall down" isn't realistic, but it's close enough.

[Breccia]

I'm curious why you seem to think every droid should function the exact same way as every other droid. And for that matter, why you think a droid control ship would be called a droid control ship if there weren't droids controlled by a ship.

There was no reason for there to be a droid control ship in the first place. It was an artificially created weakness that made zero to negative sense.
First, the droids are not only given orders by their living masters, but also by other droids. Clearly they are not being beamed orders.
Secondly, plenty of droids through the movies, including Ep 1, are shown to work just fine with no outside power source even hinted at. R2D2 himself plugs in to recharge. Droid-powering batteries are clearly neither rare nor awkward to use. When Anakin built C3PO, did he have access to satelite droid energy waves from outer space? If so, from where? And why wouldn't C3PO fall over like a pile of metal when leaving Tatooine?
Thirdly, wouldn't having either a transmitted energy source, or transmitted orders, be a huge flaw? Don't these droids sometimes go underground? What about a jamming signal, which Ep 1 flat-out proves exist?

What, I ask, is the benefit to having a droid control ship? Intentionally making a droid that's more vulnerable to attack and environmental effects, when batteries are commonplace and shown to do the job just fine, is pointless and stupid. There isn't a hint in any Star Wars movie ever that droids are anything other than self-controlled (programmed, yes, but self-controlled) and self-powered. Except Episode One.

And yes, it was stupid when the Avengers did it too.

And I'm off topic, so that's the last I will say about it, except for this:


Okay, don't kill Liam Neeson, got it

An unintended consequence, but I'm fine with it.

[Kantaki]

Until Episode I, had we even seen droids operate in large numbers? Doesn't seem fair to expect some sort of conformance from the first time a particular scenario was seen.
Eh, all I'm saying is that it seems odd considering they solved the problem later an, more importantly, 3PO was build by a little kid.


I don't think it would, actually....That would require the Viceroy having sole access, or his subordinates giving up on their own chances for safety...both of which would run counter to the general "cowardice" trait which was the primary characteristic assigned to the Neimoidians involved in the blockade. Having their super valuable droid control stuff stuck on a big ship away from where the battle droids were battling at least fits with the mindset.

There are plenty of things wrong with Episode I to find. I don't see why there should be cause to stretch for any.

Would a coward give his underlings the same level of control over his death bots he has? I can't imagine Nute Gunray didn't have some emergency commands to take control. I never said it was much better than what happened. It was just the first example that came to mind.

[Jasdoif]

What kind of mercantile organization does that?The kind that think a strong enough army could overthrow a corrupt governing body that actively attacks their profitability, that's why multiple commerce organizations formed the backbone of the Confederacy in the first place.


There was no reason for there to be a droid control ship in the first place. It was an artificially created weakness that made zero to negative sense.
First, the droids are not only given orders by their living masters, but also by other droids. Clearly they are not being beamed orders.
Secondly, plenty of droids through the movies, including Ep 1, are shown to work just fine with no outside power source even hinted at. R2D2 himself plugs in to recharge. Droid-powering batteries are clearly neither rare nor awkward to use. When Anakin built C3PO, did he have access to satelite droid energy waves from outer space? If so, from where? And why wouldn't C3PO fall over like a pile of metal when leaving Tatooine?
Thirdly, wouldn't having either a transmitted energy source, or transmitted orders, be a huge flaw? Don't these droids sometimes go underground? What about a jamming signal, which Ep 1 flat-out proves exist?This sounds an awful lot like assuming all droids function the same way, in spite of any evidence to the contrary.


What, I ask, is the benefit to having a droid control ship?Frontline droid processors get blown up with the rest of the droid? As Keltest mentioned, the Trade Federation is a mercantile group; winning battles by losing money isn't actually a victory for them.


And I'm off topicPersonally I think it's very on-topic; conceptually it's not that different from the numerous posts protesting the sanity of Godsmoot rules.

[Doug Lampert]

Personally I think it's very on-topic; conceptually it's not that different from the numerous posts protesting the sanity of Godsmoot rules.

Oh, there are plenty of problems with those too.

I mean, what kind of organization has a vote canceled because the holder of the proxy died or left the meeting AFTER casting a legitimate ballot?

And who has rules that specifically let a bodyguard attack the person he's guarding? That had to be deliberately put in. I mean the wording is simpler without it.

Yeah, the rules shouldn't have given Roy any chance at all to accomplish anything.

No time limit on voting is a bit weird when you've got someone who routinely takes days, but then, he only votes at all if absolutely everybody else deadlocks. And it's not like anyone important has to stick around waiting for the final voting, that's on the proxie holders, who have nothing better to do with their time. So it's not a big problem.

Of course many of their rules do make sense:
"No backsies" is standard voting rules. It's not normally put that way, but it's normal enough.
"You can't attack other voting groups", DUH!
"People who aren't members of the club don't get to speak unless invited", yep, although they handle that just by ignoring such speech.
"Bodyguards are personal and don't automatically transfer when an office changes", so just like real life there, and also just like you'd expect from Wreccan's descriptions at the start.
"People not in the club and not representing anyone within the club don't get the club's protection." Yep, sounds fine.

But every rule that Roy tries to use to have a chance, those are all senseless.

DougL

[Q42]

I have looked around and haven't seen this mentioned before. I apologize if it has been discussed...

When the "other dwarf vampire" attacked whiskers on the mechane, could that be considered an attack on Veldrina?

Is whiskers only a piece of property?
Is there something I'm missing?

[georgie_leech]

And who has rules that specifically let a bodyguard attack the person he's guarding? That had to be deliberately put in. I mean the wording is simpler without it.

Or the rule is 'don't attack the other churches,' because the idea of a scenario where the High Priest of a deity chooses a bodyguard that is not a member of the faithful and inclined to attack them in the case of disagreements is extremely weird.. The situation with Roy and Durkula is rather unique and it almost certainly has never come up before. It'd be like football having a clause about what happens if a player brings a jet pack to fly over the other team, it's not a scenario the rules even considered, let alone decided to prohibit.

[Breccia]

Personally I think it's very on-topic; conceptually it's not that different from the numerous posts protesting the sanity of Godsmoot rules.

...fine. If you insist.


This sounds an awful lot like assuming all droids function the same way, in spite of any evidence to the contrary.

If you were playing a D&D game, and you were clearing out an orc lair filled with orcs acting like every other violent, hostile-on-sight orc you've seen in any other D&D game, and suddenly it turns out they were actually all polymorphed, mind-controlled hostage halflings, and killing the mind flayer in charge would turn them all back to normal, but now you're a mass murderer instead, would your reaction be
a) "Well I guess this is my fault for assuming all things that looked and acted exactly like orcs were the same"
or
b) "HOW THE HELL WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT?"

One of the main points of droids is they all have a lot in common. That's the point of having droids. Why do you think every other rest stop in the Death Star had an R2D2 socket? When there isn't even the hint of information that these droids, somehow, are the exception and not the rule? At what point in the movie did we see any clue at all, droids having a hive mind was a thing? This is the first and last time:

PADME : We have a plan which should immobilize the Droid Army. We will send
what pilots we have to knock out the Droid control ship which is orbiting
the planet. If we can get past their rayshields, we can sever communication
and their droids will be helpless.

Again, this is in direct contradiction of what others have noted in this very thread: the droids worked just fine with verbal communication. Which they exchanged with each other. And, even if communication were cut, why wouldn't the droids continue shooting the crap out of the gungans? Does your laptop shut down when you lose a wifi signal, or does it continue to run apps and programs that don't require a connection? Why intentionally make clearly self-sufficient droids stop, when they stop getting new information? Why intentionally make your only army fall over if they stop getting communication? Again, no other droids in the entire history of the movie franchise mandates orders beamed into their head. It was never mentioned before the quote above, and it was never used again.

Do you remember the parts in Episodes 2 or 3 where
CHANCELLOR PALPATINE: We need a great Clone Army to combat the droid army of our enemies.
LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE: No, we just need to blow up their droid control ships. Remember?
PALPATINE: Oh right. My bad.
That's because it didn't happen. Because making your entire army slaves to that third blinking light on the modem is an intentional design flaw. It was catastrophically stupid. The Trade Federation lost the siege because of this, and for literally no other reason.

I mean, it could very easily have been this:
PADME: Call off your droids, or I will shoot you in the face with this gun I'm aiming holding right now.
NUTE: Ok jeez, I'm doing it because this movie has clearly demonstrated I am a craven coward and it would be in character to do this.
PADME: Whew. This way I didn't have to risk the lives of any of those captured pilots who weren't just executed, or rely on Naboo fighter ships the Trade Federation left intact for no good reason, neither of which we could have, or should have, assumed would be the case. Damn, you guys are stupid.
NUTE: We know :(

Now let's extend this line of thinking to the current context. Find a good reason why the lack of constant, direct contact from Hel (or her divine minions) would suddenly cause all the vampires to fall over, or turn to dust, or go feral, etc. Especially since most vampires aren't clerics, and even clerics don't fall over when their deity stops talking to them for a few seconds. Any reason. Any at all. Now stop, because there isn't one. Even vampire clerics choose to worship Hel of their own free will, and most aren't custom made by Living Dead Girl helself. I would be the most surprised I have ever been with this strip if
a) Hel suddenly vanished (such as being eaten by the Snarl), and
b) all her vampires suddenly became nonthreats as a direct result of this.
I'm sure the author could eventually sell me on such a point, but he'd have to try. It would feel just as out of left field as the droids falling over, but at least we'd get an explanation that made sense and fit the world he custom built. Episode 1 had neither. It was stupid. And nearly everyone, from Red Letter Media, to Cinemasins, to the Editing Room, to How It Should Have Ended, called it out and ridiculed it.


Frontline droid processors get blown up with the rest of the droid?

Okay, fine. Why weren't these processors put inside the much heavier tanks seen in the very same battle? Most of which survive just fine? You'd have better signal strength that way. But you're still talking about droids, provably nearly sentient beings, receiving orders, not their entire thought process from a single hive mind. Or, again, no reason for them to talk to each other, Which they do. And if people are worried about the cost of droid processors, enough to offload them into a ship in outer space or the like, explain the Jawa droid sales pitch in the original Star Wars movie. These are junk droids. They're salvaged. They're cheap. But they're not controlled by any ship, computer bank, or anything else, as proven by the many changes of venue throughout A New Hope.

HAN: Hold on, I'm about to make the jump to lightspeed.
C3P0: But I'm still connected to my proxy serv--
WOOOOOOOOSH
*C3PO falls over like a pile of metal*
LUKE: Your ship doesn't have a droid communication source?
HAN: No. Why would it? You see me mock and get sarcastic with droids about a dozen times, hell I manually switch C3PO off in the next movie. Why would I have something on their ship that enables their use on a ship designed to be covert and therefore have fewer broadcasting signals?

or

LUKE: Shut down all the garbage disposals in the detention level!
R2D2: *whistles* *plugs in*
DEATH STAR DROID COMMUNICATION RELAY: Unauthorized access easily detected since I control all droids on the Death Star. Blocking request and requesting eleventy dozen stormtroopers to capture all droids in the area.
LUKE: Oh crap.
*disgusting squishing sound*

or

GUNNER: Look, another life pod. Should we shoot it?
COMMANDER: Negative, there are no life signs aboard. It's either empty, or droids. We have captured the ship, so just shut down the droid communication server and send, I dunno, two guys and a lizard to pick them up and carry them back.
GUNNER: Relaying the order now.
C3PO: *Falls over like a heap of metal*
R2D2: *whistles* *powers down but stays upright because three legs yo*
Movie Over. Empire = Very Yes.

or

UNCLE OWEN: I need someone to talk to my evaporators.
C3PO: Why don't you use the droid communication server? I mean, my first job was talking to binary load lifters, which was also stupid, because their owner should have used the droid communication server. Technically, I don't know why I exist.
UNCLE OWEN: Oh, right. Bye!

I could probably find more, but I think you get my point. Forcing your droids, who have their own power source and are proven capable of independent thought to the point of giving each other orders, to require a constant communication signal or they shut down, is an intentional design flaw that serves no purpose at all. The reason it was never seen or heard from before, or again, was because it was stupid in the first place. Droids worked fine on their own in every other scene in that, and every other, movie. I assumed they worked, in that respect, like every other droid, for the same reason I assumed they didn't get their power from nuclear three-eyed fish, worship a side of bacon every third Wednesday, or cheat at hologram chess.

There was no reason to have it. Saying "well you should not have assumed they didn't" doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid flaw with only downsides, and there was no canon lore requiring its inclusion. You may as well have asked why I would assume my car has brakes when I bought it without testing them personally.

[Lombard]

Oh snap!


10

[Hopeless]

Regarding ANH I assume how they broke the siege of Naboo has become a legend so they don't use a droid link in case a lucky shot takes down all of the droids in one go now that would be nasty if say your adopted son had gone missing and you couldn't track him down but probably found a message he left about being accompanied by two droids...

Palpatine probably read the memo on what happened at Naboo and "suggested" to Count Dooku that he do something about that... shame the other leaders of the Separatists wasn't aware that they would all need to be gathered so Darth Vader could shut their droid armies down since the control codes would have had to be individually hunted down before they could do just that...

Strange nobody double checked to find out why they shut down so conveniently... since there was Jedi survivors I assume Yoda whilst in the Jedi Temple set off a signal to not just warn Jedi away but delete any files on the various Jedi Temples and hiding places... did he blow up the stored holocrons?

Sorry back to the real story... do you think Belkar made his opponent swallow the protection from evil clasp he's carrying?

[Jasdoif]

If you were playing a D&D game, and you were clearing out an orc lair filled with orcs acting like every other violent, hostile-on-sight orc you've seen in any other D&D game, and suddenly it turns out they were actually all polymorphed, mind-controlled hostage halflings, and killing the mind flayer in charge would turn them all back to normal, but now you're a mass murderer instead, would your reaction be
a) "Well I guess this is my fault for assuming all things that looked and acted exactly like orcs were the same"
or
b) "HOW THE HELL WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT?"So...are you saying that the tanks were actually transformed bipedal droids, and all the tanks reverted to bipedal form when the droid control ship was destroyed? Or is there some other reason you're throwing several more degrees of difference into the parallel?

'cause if the orcs were mind-controlled orcs, and killing the mind flayer ended the mind control....I think it'd pass believability.


One of the main points of droids is they all have a lot in common. That's the point of having droids. Why do you think every other rest stop in the Death Star had an R2D2 socket?The ones C-3PO can't use? Having a lot in common doesn't quite reach having everything in common, apparently.


When there isn't even the hint of information that these droids, somehow, are the exception and not the rule? At what point in the movie did we see any clue at all, droids having a hive mind was a thing? This is the first and last time:

PADME : We have a plan which should immobilize the Droid Army. We will send
what pilots we have to knock out the Droid control ship which is orbiting
the planet. If we can get past their rayshields, we can sever communication
and their droids will be helpless....you do realize you just said what constitutes "hint of information" and "any clue at all", right? (And any exchange of information is "communication".)


Again, this is in direct contradiction of what others have noted in this very thread: the droids worked just fine with verbal communication. Which they exchanged with each other. And, even if communication were cut, why wouldn't the droids continue shooting the crap out of the gungans? Does your laptop shut down when you lose a wifi signal, or does it continue to run apps and programs that don't require a connection?I do plenty of stuff over remote connections, where my work laptop doesn't have to be particularly strong because all the heavy lifting is done elsewhere, and keyboard/mouse input is sent from my laptop to said heavy lifting (and it sends screen information back). When I lose my wireless connection I am cut off from whatever I'm trying to do. And dumb terminals that don't even have processing capacity of their own are a thing.


Do you remember the parts in Episodes 2 or 3 where
CHANCELLOR PALPATINE: We need a great Clone Army to combat the droid army of our enemies.
LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE: No, we just need to blow up their droid control ships. Remember?
PALPATINE: Oh right. My bad.
That's because it didn't happen. Because making your entire army slaves to that third blinking light on the modem is an intentional design flaw. It was catastrophically stupid. The Trade Federation lost the siege because of this, and for literally no other reason.

I mean, it could very easily have been this:
PADME: Call off your droids, or I will shoot you in the face with this gun I'm aiming holding right now.
NUTE: Ok jeez, I'm doing it because this movie has clearly demonstrated I am a craven coward and it would be in character to do this.
PADME: Whew. This way I didn't have to risk the lives of any of those captured pilots who weren't just executed, or rely on Naboo fighter ships the Trade Federation left intact for no good reason, neither of which we could have, or should have, assumed would be the case. Damn, you guys are stupid.
NUTE: We know :(See, the Trade Federation being catastrophically stupid and overemphasizing cost effectiveness over combat effectiveness to the point they lost both is something I agree with.


And if people are worried about the cost of droid processors, enough to offload them into a ship in outer space or the like, explain the Jawa droid sales pitch in the original Star Wars movie. These are junk droids. They're salvaged. They're cheap. But they're not controlled by any ship, computer bank, or anything else, as proven by the many changes of venue throughout A New Hope.That's an easy explanation: the remote processor on the Trade Federation ship is horribly expensive, what with necessarily having processing power comparable to the myriad independent processors the droids it controls would normally have; to the point you'd only use it instead of internal processors if you had tons of droids you didn't have internal processors for, and had some way you felt you could protect that remote processor. It's a setup that's not going to sell in the standard market, or be even marginally useful for cheap independent owners...and in fact, it wouldn't make a ton of sense to build droids without internal processor unless you had or intended to build such a remote processor in the first place. And we already established that the Trade Federation is lacking in the sense department.


There was no reason to have it. Saying "well you should not have assumed they didn't" doesn't change the fact that it was a stupid flaw with only downsides, and there was no canon lore requiring its inclusion. You may as well have asked why I would assume my car has brakes when I bought it without testing them personally.You were specifically told they had it in advice, in the moment you yourself quoted. And it became canon lore the moment it was introduced in a Star Wars movie; exactly the same as the entirety of Episode IV. And if you were told your car didn't have brakes, and still assumed it had them a moment later...well, I think there's more than one problem going on :smalltongue:

It's a perfectly viable mechanism, arrived at by a patently out-of-its-element-entirely organization, that happens to have done away with the droid army threat around the same time the droid army turned from excitement into bookkeeping, in a way that emphasized Anakin's affinity for flying and machines (which is one of those problems that doesn't need any stretching to find). I think your ire would be better directed at the story elements that brought it about, rather than complain that the internal consistency allows room for variance.

[littlebum2002]

I do plenty of stuff over remote connections, where my work laptop doesn't have to be particularly strong because all the heavy lifting is done elsewhere, and keyboard/mouse input is sent from my laptop to said heavy lifting (and it sends screen information back). When I lose my wireless connection I am cut off from whatever I'm trying to do. And dumb terminals that don't even have processing capacity of their own are a thing.

Also remember that dumb terminals USED to be the norm, until personal computers came out. SO it's entirely possible that the droid technology was further developed between the prequels and the original series where they were allowed to work on their own.

I mean, can you imagine, in the future, a movie is made about the 2010's, and everyone has smartphones and small laptops, then the "prequel" is made that takes place during the 70's, and people get mad that there must be an error because the technology is different?

I mean, expecting the technology to be the same between the prequels and the original trilogy requires much more suspension of disbelief than expecting the technology to change between them.

[Doug Lampert]

Or the rule is 'don't attack the other churches,' because the idea of a scenario where the High Priest of a deity chooses a bodyguard that is not a member of the faithful and inclined to attack them in the case of disagreements is extremely weird.. The situation with Roy and Durkula is rather unique and it almost certainly has never come up before. It'd be like football having a clause about what happens if a player brings a jet pack to fly over the other team, it's not a scenario the rules even considered, let alone decided to prohibit.

When the rule is quoted it is, "A guard who raises arms against a priest of another god must be put to death immediately".

Why not just "Anyone who raises arms against a priest must be put to death immediately"?

Or "Anyone who raises arms against an official attendee must be put to death immediately"?

They have a separate rule for bodyguards and priests, and it specifically says "a priest of another god" rather than just "a priest".

This isn't "we didn't think of it", this is "we thought of it and did it deliberately". Nor is the rule obscure. No one questions Roy's ability to attack the HPoH or tries to put him to death immediately. It's like they were all briefed that this is allowed. Maybe Loki used this three meetings ago by having a bodyguard attack his own priest and then objecting when people killed the bodyguard that they were in violation of the rules or something. But this is a known feature of the rules deliberately included in the rules.