I love the Bard class, but...

[Misterwhisper]

Ok, here is the deal people.

I am loving playing my Bard, I am a peace loving and rather nice guy who plays his instruments and sings to adventure and become famous. It also helps with the ladies.

Here I come across 2 issues:

1. The performance skill use itself.

2. Bard college choices.

Let's look at the points in order.

1. The performance skill.

Like all good bards, this was my first skill I put training in. However, after playing a bard for about 3 games I have encountered an issue.

It is never actually used for anything.
You do not roll it to actually perform music, those are tools to be used.
Thusly, all my bard focuses are just tools not performance.
You do not roll it to talk to crowds, that is persuasion or deception, in our games at least.
You do not use it to disguise, that is deception, again in our game at least.
All perform does is like singing and dancing... which as far as I can tell other than just RP, means absolutely nothing.

Am I missing something or is essentially perform just a skill tax bard take for no reason?

Problem 2.

My bard is a singer and player of music who seeks to be a master musician like many many bards of the past...

Bard colleges however are:

College of Lore: your more caster centric bard, where you learn more skills and spells from other classes. Like a Sorcerer/bard.

College of Valor: the more martial side of bards who learn more about weapons and armor and combat. Like fighter/bards.

College of Satire: jesters and essentially for those who seek to piss off their gm/players/npcs by being an agile and trollish jester. Essentially a better arcane trickster.

College of Blades: the bastard child of badly thought out battle master fighter/bards. You get the worst fighting style in the game, but then get ripoff battle master abilities that use up your already limited Bardic Inspirations, and also they use up your bonus actions which means you will not be dual wielding anyway.

So Ummm where is my Bard College for bards that actually want to, you know, play music and sing, like a normal bard?

Is there an actual College of Songs or something out there I have missed?

Feel free to throw out ideas.

I an writing up an actual musical based bard college I will post later.

[Belac93]

They all can play music and sing.

For the tools, you should be rolling performance + tools. My interpretation is that you add your proficiency bonus in the tools to any performance roll you make with them. It is essentially free expertise in performance, plus you can get expertise in normal performance. You can also use performance to make money. What is your DM going to say when you roll a 1 on your performance check, and still get a total of 24, which is only 1 under what is qualified as a very hard skill check? (20 cha + performance skill + instrument proficiency + performance expertise +1). What do you think when you roll a 20, which would make you beat the Nearly Impossible DC by 13.

This is assuming level 20 of course, but a level 3 can still get an average of 19, and upwards checks still fall only just under Nearly impossible. By level 4 you can be doing the impossible 5% of the time. Level 5 ups it to 30% of the time.

Even if you can't find any other use, you can always make money.

[eastmabl]

1. Instrument proficiencies mean that you can play an instrument by itself --- think of a recital. The Charisma (Performance) skill is much broader that that.

First, in addition to music, you can also perform dance, act, or tell a story - all kinds of entertainment.

Second, the way that I read the skill, any combined check of instrument and singing also triggers Performance. Think about it this way:

Lute proficiency: Play "Barrett's Privateers" on your lute.
Perform check: Play "Barrett's Privateers" on your lute while singing the song.
Perform check: Play "Barrett's Privateers" on your lute while dancing around the stage.


As a kind of musician, singing, dancing and playing the instrument are three different tasks that get rolled into one skill - Performance.

2. I'm pretty sure that there's no College of Songs because there's no room for it.

All the other colleges get something different from your standard bard. The College of Lore is your "bardic knowledge" bard who has more spells. The College of Valor is the skald bard - a fighting man that also sings. The College of Satire (playtest material) is the jester bard. The College of Swords (not Blades; also playtest material) is a circus twist on the College of Valor.

Mechanically, what would you get from College of Songs? It's either (1) you are better at Performance checks --- which you're already complaining about, (2) more instrument proficiencies, which is nice but a bit like ribbon in the sense that it doesn't give much mechanical advantage, or (3) you know more songs --- which probably means spells --- which is the same thing as College of Lore.

I think you're better off fluffing the College of Lore as your College of Songs.

I don't know if I see the need for it.

[RustyArmor]

The only thing being proficient in performance does is allow you to live a comfortable life style for free. If your group ignores the life style expenses ruling then, yes the proficiency is useless minus RPing.

[Drackolus]

There are several musicians and live performers at our table, myself included. Anyone who's ever performed music on a stage should be able to tell you that mechanical skill is nothing compared to your ability to perform. You should only ever, ever be making a tool check if you're trying to play something more complex than another instrumentalist, or possibly if you're providing background music or performing in an orchestra. 95% or more of the time that you're playing an instrument in a D&D setting, you're not trying to impress them with your skill at playing an instrument, but by your ability to captivate them. Other than saying "you don't know how to even play that instrument," tool proficiency is probably irrelevant. If it's important enough, though, I could see a dm allowing you to make a tool check in addition to your perform check.

Disguises are perform by raw and by logic. It's acting. Telling a couple lies is not the same as pretending to be somebody you aren't. You have to lie to yourself, and that's something you've gotta train and practice for. And really, in a way, performance is almost always a lie to some extent, but you wouldn't call a band singer who has a confident stage persona but is actually shy when they're off stage a liar.

Crowd speaking is definitely more of a performance than a persuasion. You aren't trying to logically debate something, and you can watch almost any political speech and see that the actual words are frequently generic and vague. It's the speaker's facial expressions, hand motions, and pretty word choice that gets people to their side. Hitler didn't make sense, but he was a darn good public speaker.

Sorry if I am being a bit confrontational, but speaking and performance are very near and dear to my heart.

EDIT: whoop spelling error

[Misterwhisper]

There are several musicians and live performers at our table, myself included. Anyone who's ever performed music on a stage should be able to tell you that mechanical skill is nothing compared to your ability to perform. You should only ever, ever be making a tool check if you're trying to play something more complex than another instrumentalist, or possibly if you're providing background music or performing in an orchestra. 95% or more of the time that you're playing an instrument in a D&D setting, you're not trying to impress them with your skill at playing an instrument, but by your ability to captivate them. Other than saying "you don't know how to even play that instrument," tool proficiency is probably irrelevant. If it's important enough, though, I could see a dm allowing you to make a tool check in addition to your perform check.

Disguises are perform by raw and by logic. It's acting. Telling a couple lies is not the same as pretending to be somebody you aren't. You have to lie to yourself, and that's something you've gotta train and practice for. And really, in a way, performance is almost always a lie to some extent, but you wouldn't call a band singer who has a confident stage persona but is actually shy when they're off stage a liar.

Crowd speaking is definitely more of a performance than a persuasion. You aren't trying to logically debate something, and you can watch almost any political speech and see that the actual words are frequently generic and vague. It's the speaker's facial expressions, hand motions, and pretty word choice that gets people to their side. Hitler didn't make sense, but he was a darn good public speaker.

Sorry if I am being a bit confrontational, but speaking and performance are very near and dear to my heart.

EDIT: whoop spelling error

You are preaching to the choir man, trust me, I know. These are just the rules I have to play under, not that I agree with them.

I brought up the point of acting as someone else should be performance but all I got was, "You are trying to convince them a lie is the truth, it is deception." Same with Speaking to a crowd, "You are trying to convince the crowd to think what you want, it is persuasion."

Essentially all Performance will ever be, in any game I get to play in, is the skill to play music or act in a play and the like, I do not agree with it, but it is what I will have to deal with.

Personally I do not think that musical instruments should be different tools in the first place.

I think instruments should be a group not individual: ex. Stringed, not Violin, Viola, Harp, Bandore, ect.

[eastmabl]

Personally I do not think that musical instruments should be different tools in the first place.

I think instruments should be a group not individual: ex. Stringed, not Violin, Viola, Harp, Bandore, ect.

1. Instruments as tools limits players from knowing every instrument by virtue of being trained in performance.

2, As someone who plays stringed instruments, they can be vastly different to play - even within the same family.

I can play the electric bass and the stand up bass, but I have no clue how to use a bow with the stand up. Likewise, if you asked me to play cello, I would be horrible because the tuning is completely different.

Likewise, if you handed an acoustic guitar to the cello player, the cello player would have no clue what to do.

[Icewraith]

Unfortunately the game explicitly bans adding your proficiency bonus to a roll more than once unless otherwise stated. However, you can suggest to your DM that you should gain advantage on the check by using an instrument with which you are proficient on top of your performance skill proficiency.

This obviously won't work if you're competing with other people with instrument proficiencies and perform (i.e. other bards).

[Syll]

2, As someone who plays stringed instruments, they can be vastly different to play - even within the same family.

I can play the electric bass and the stand up bass, but I have no clue how to use a bow with the stand up. Likewise, if you asked me to play cello, I would be horrible because the tuning is completely different.

Likewise, if you handed an acoustic guitar to the cello player, the cello player would have no clue what to do.

While I don't disagree with you, I think having them grouped would make sense in the same way that Fighters have proficiency in all martial weapons.

[Susano-wo]

Yeah, anyone with performance proficiency and/or an instrument proficiency can be guy who sings well and tells stories. Bard is something more. If you want skill use without magic, maybe use rogue, or if you are into the magic aspect use Lore college. How important songs are to the character is up to the RP.

[Spectre9000]

One other thing I think you're missing is that with the performance skill you get the following benefit:


If you have proficiency in the Performance skill and put your performance skill to use during your downtime, you earn enough to support a wealthy lifestyle instead.



Choosing a wealthy lifestyle means living a life o f luxury, though you might not have achieved the social status associated with the old money o f nobility or royalty. You live a lifestyle comparable to that o f a highly successful merchant, a favored servant o f the royalty, or the owner of a few small businesses. You have respectable lodgings, usually a spacious home in a good part o f town or a comfortable suite at a fine inn. You likely have a small staff o f servants.



Maintaining a wealthy lifestyle might help you make contacts with the rich and powerful, though you run the risk o f attracting thieves.


The biggest benefit is the RP choices you have from the lifestyle you can sustain. You gain connections with powerful people in the nobility and merchant classes. Use that to your advantage weave intrigue galore.

[Talamare]

I think you're confusing Minstrel with Bard, and it's an easy confusion to make since some sources have used the 2 words interchangeably.

A Minstrel is a Musician, their life goal is playing music and entertainment.
A Bard is a storyteller, their goal is to tell tales.

This difference is key because anyone who learns how to play an instrument can become a Minstrel.

However, you need to research about famous tales (Lore) or be a part of them and recite them (Valor). The Jester is particularly interesting, since in ancient times their position as the fool was important. They were legally allowed to criticize and bring illegal matters into the open.

... Blades I have no idea...

Oh, and as far as Performance checks. It's one of those things that ended up becoming less popular than it should have been due to DMs not expecting people to bring it.

It's also why I personally when I DM force very little Perception checks unless the situation demands it.

[Sitri]

I haven't read them, but there are a few bard colleges on DM's Guild that you can download for "Pay what you want." Which to me means tip if you decide it is good enough to use.

I almost think one of them is called College of Music. Some of those might be to your liking.

[bardo]

When we arrive at a new town I've been known to get up on a stage and shamelessly promote the reputation of our party's Fighter in tale, song, and (if the mood is right) interpretative dance. Naturally, I perform wearing a disguise for artistic reasons.

A few days later when I introduce the Fighter in social situations he gets a lot of "hey, aren't you the guy who...". The recognition keeps his megalomania fed, you know how dwarfs can be. Fantasy folk believe bard stories like modern folks believe what they saw on TV. Some are wise enough to take it with a grain of salt, but so far nobody had noticed they heard all those stories from me.

It's fluffy, fun, and occasionally works to our advantage, but it's nowhere near as useful as the Performance skill of previous editions. Performance is easily the least useful skill of fifth edition. Using Performance to earn a living wears off fast. At mid levels we've no trouble earning the 120gp/month for the wealthy lifestyle from adventuring, and few opportunities to spend our coin on anything else since we're already equipped and there are no magical items for sale.

I could have picked another skill instead of Performance. Probably should have. I doubt my proficiency in Performance had ever made a difference. You have a nice bonus even without proficiency (high CHA and Jack of All Trades). Dying on stage isn't a big deal, and you'd still die on stage even if you do take proficiency in Performance. Any mechanical advantage I've ever gotten with Performance, I could have gotten with other CHA skills or with magic. Definitely don't take expertise in Performance.

Bardo.

[choryukami]

Ok, here is the deal people.

I am loving playing my Bard, I am a peace loving and rather nice guy who plays his instruments and sings to adventure and become famous. It also helps with the ladies.

Here I come across 2 issues:

1. The performance skill use itself.

2. Bard college choices.

Let's look at the points in order.

1. The performance skill.

Like all good bards, this was my first skill I put training in. However, after playing a bard for about 3 games I have encountered an issue.

It is never actually used for anything.
You do not roll it to actually perform music, those are tools to be used.
Thusly, all my bard focuses are just tools not performance.
You do not roll it to talk to crowds, that is persuasion or deception, in our games at least.
You do not use it to disguise, that is deception, again in our game at least.
All perform does is like singing and dancing... which as far as I can tell other than just RP, means absolutely nothing.

Am I missing something or is essentially perform just a skill tax bard take for no reason?

Problem 2.

My bard is a singer and player of music who seeks to be a master musician like many many bards of the past...

Bard colleges however are:

College of Lore: your more caster centric bard, where you learn more skills and spells from other classes. Like a Sorcerer/bard.

College of Valor: the more martial side of bards who learn more about weapons and armor and combat. Like fighter/bards.

College of Satire: jesters and essentially for those who seek to piss off their gm/players/npcs by being an agile and trollish jester. Essentially a better arcane trickster.

College of Blades: the bastard child of badly thought out battle master fighter/bards. You get the worst fighting style in the game, but then get ripoff battle master abilities that use up your already limited Bardic Inspirations, and also they use up your bonus actions which means you will not be dual wielding anyway.

So Ummm where is my Bard College for bards that actually want to, you know, play music and sing, like a normal bard?

Is there an actual College of Songs or something out there I have missed?

Feel free to throw out ideas.

I an writing up an actual musical based bard college I will post later.

1. I suggest not actually training performance. You can if you want the RP benefit, but I do most of my 'performance' with either an instrument in a tavern, or straight persuasion or deception. Save your skills for Stealth, Deception, etc. You get three instruments. And those aren't really combat or exploration, or even social encounter things. They're more for fun when you're in the tavern. Even if you have an Instrument of the Bards. You don't have to play the instrument in battle to use it as a focus. I have a level 15 bard with untrained performance. It is, of course, still a +9 or something.

2. Bards aren't JUST musicians. That is just one of their many facets. ALL bards are master musicians, and skillmasters (and can be master thieves) but all that takes is tool training and skill training. Your college is what you do besides that. Lore makes you an awesome healer, blaster or magic manipulator (or some combination). Valor is the physical attacker with lots of magic. Blades is a legacy item from 2nd edition, and not so bad. Jesters look like a lot of fun and are the ultimate trolls. Never played since I mostly play AL.

[Gnaeus]

1. I suggest not actually training performance. You can if you want the RP benefit, but I do most of my 'performance' with either an instrument in a tavern, or straight

I mostly agree with this. Between your instrument proficiencies, your high charisma, and the fact that you will be getting half your bonus to untrained skills anyway, you will probably never miss it unless you are in a fairly unusual campaign. You are still going to be a really good performer.

[JellyPooga]

One other thing I think you're missing is that with the performance skill you get the following benefit:

Choosing a wealthy lifestyle means living a life o f luxury, though you might not have achieved the social status associated with the old money o f nobility or royalty. You live a lifestyle comparable to that o f a highly successful merchant, a favored servant o f the royalty, or the owner of a few small businesses. You have respectable lodgings, usually a spacious home in a good part o f town or a comfortable suite at a fine inn. You likely have a small staff of servants.

Emphasis mine. Seriously, this is a big deal. You have a lifestyle comparable to the owner of a few businesses and likely have your own personal staff of servants.

That's ludicrous wealth. That's not-a-working-mans level of money. That's being a rich person, dressed in tailored clothes, drinking the finest wines, eating at the fanciest restaurants. Having someone follow you around for the express purpose of running errands for you. Having shop owners fawn over your every whim and giving you a discount because they expect you to spend more than your average adventurer, instead of giving you the stink-eye as a common ruffian junking up his shop. It's having the upper crust of society inviting you to functions because you're clearly a person of wealth and taste (because you're not just some adventurer...you're a Bard and know how to hob-nob with the nobs, right?).

Someone living a Wealthy lifestyle has privilege. Whilst in any town or city of decent size, they should have all sorts of advantages that are simply not available to those not living that lifestyle. In smaller places, they have the option to lord it over the small-folk and demand things go their way; peasants don't argue with monied folk.

Living a wealthy lifestyle means you don't need to even make other skill checks. For example; you don't need to bluff your way into the ball because you got an invitation. Being trained in Performance gives you a "free pass" on things. It's not a skill you roll too often, but it's a proficiency that opens up a lot of doors without having to actually roll it.

[Petrocorus]

It is never actually used for anything.
You do not roll it to actually perform music, those are tools to be used.
Thusly, all my bard focuses are just tools not performance.
You do not roll it to talk to crowds, that is persuasion or deception, in our games at least.
You do not use it to disguise, that is deception, again in our game at least.
All perform does is like singing and dancing... which as far as I can tell other than just RP, means absolutely nothing.

Am I missing something or is essentially perform just a skill tax bard take for no reason?

Sadly, i think you're missing nothing. This actually shocked me when i read the rules, but Performance is used only for singing, dancing, acting, storytelling in for of entertainment. So basically, only some social encounters will use it, and as others pointed out, improving your lifestyle. And since singing cannot be your spellcasting focus, that means you're never going to use it in most of the game.

And to add insult to injury, the rules say you use Dex, not Cha to play string instruments. IIRC, nothing is said about wind or percussion instruments.



College of Satire:
College of Blades:

What book are those from?



What is your DM going to say when you roll a 1 on your performance check, and still get a total of 24, which is only 1 under what is qualified as a very hard skill check? (20 cha + performance skill + instrument proficiency + performance expertise +1).

You can never add your proficiency bonus more than once to a single roll. You can only double it, if you have expertise or another feature allowing it. So, by RAW, the normal check for string instrument is D20 + Dex mod + proficiency bonus (x 2 if you have expertise).



Disguises are perform by raw and by logic. It's acting. Telling a couple lies is not the same as pretending to be somebody you aren't. You have to lie to yourself, and that's something you've gotta train and practice for. And really, in a way, performance is almost always a lie to some extent, but you wouldn't call a band singer who has a confident stage persona but is actually shy when they're off stage a liar.

Not by RAW, the description of the Deception skill p. 178 clearly indicates that it is used to "pass yourself off in aa disguise".



Crowd speaking is definitely more of a performance than a persuasion. You aren't trying to logically debate something, and you can watch almost any political speech and see that the actual words are frequently generic and vague. It's the speaker's facial expressions, hand motions, and pretty word choice that gets people to their side. Hitler didn't make sense, but he was a darn good public speaker.

Same thing here, the description of the Persuasion skill p. 179 speak of "inspiring a crowd of townsfolk". While the description of Performance only say "you can delight an audience".

Yes, they really left nothing to Performance.



I think you're confusing Minstrel with Bard, and it's an easy confusion to make since some sources have used the 2 words interchangeably.

In the game, the Bard class encompass both the bard and the minstrel job.




Living a wealthy lifestyle means you don't need to even make other skill checks. For example; you don't need to bluff your way into the ball because you got an invitation. Being trained in Performance gives you a "free pass" on things. It's not a skill you roll too often, but it's a proficiency that opens up a lot of doors without having to actually roll it.

But a Bard with high Cha and Jack-of-all-trades don't really need to be proficient in the skill to use it efficiently.

I second or third, or nth, those who said you should ask your DM to trade your proficiency for another skill. You're already proficient with 3 instruments, you can use your downtime to learn new ones for 250 gp each, if you need, but you're probably not going to use more than three instrument most of the time, you only really need one in actual play.
And you can still add half of your proficiency bonus to the skill anyway.

[Ashrym]

In the game, the Bard class encompass both the bard and the minstrel job.

This isn't true. The entertainer background covers the minstrel job. I could make an arcane trickster rogue, thief, or champion with that background and I would still be able to portray a performing minstrel. All bards have a basic association with performance but not all performers are bards. Bards have historical and mythological reference in various cultures that the colleges try to help enable. The historical and mythological references are why bards cast spells instead of act simply as wandering minstrel adventurers. D&D uses the term "bard" to cover various different tropes including the performing minstrel from more modern fantasy but bards and minstrels are still two separate things.

@the OP

As stated, the performance skill is rarely rolled. Normally it's taken because the character is meant to be a performer so it fits the RP aspects, or it's taken for the lifestyle benefits that go well beyond income when it comes to making favorable connections or requesting favors. Like someone said earlier, most people need to find a way in to places when someone with the performance skill might be perfectly expected to appear. Having friends in high places opens up options without needing to roll, and the proficiency can be rather useful in a city based campaign with a lot of intrigue or detective work. This can also be accomplished simply by paying for the wealthy lifestyle but perform does have a few uses.

The difference between performance an instrument and perform skill is technical ability (DEX) versus connecting to the audience (CHA). Instruments should not be rolled normally either; you know how to play. Rolling is only if it's competitive against another performer in a contest or to attempt a very difficult piece when it comes to an instrument. Normally Bards or performs simply use the instrument to accompany their own performances.

Using the perform skill covers a variety of things like storytelling, poetry recital, singing, etc. There are reasons to roll perform. For example, if the performer wishes to inspire a crowd per the description of the skill what he is doing is working on influencing attitude and reaction. The DMG has some information on NPC attitudes and reactions and what the bard is attempting to do with the performance is influence those attitudes in that inspiration. This can be done to make the town mayor sound bad and build a negative reputation as the performer tells stories of his cruelty and corruptions, for puts a crowd into a favorable mood before attempting to ask a favor (which then becomes a followup persuasion check), or curry favor with a patron by composing a favorable tale of his deeds. Perform is the skill to use in changing NPC attitudes when not trying to deceive or persuade them, only inspire their attitudes one way or another.

I agree with the statements that you might be confusing bards with minstrels. There's nothing wrong with wanting to play that concept because it's a modern trope and bards encompass various tropes. Hopefully the information on the skill helps you understand what you should be trying to do with the skill and explain to your DM what you are specifically accomplishing with the performance so he or she can set an appropriate DC for you.

Having said that....

I wanted to get back to what bards actually are. All bards learn to play instruments. All bards pick up at least a bit of lore and performance ability by the jack-of-all-trades feature for half proficiency. This gets back to covering various tropes. Bards originated western Europe associated with Druids and were part of the oral tradition. It was a bard's role to memorize history and to do so bard's learned it in a form of poetry used as a mnemonic enhancer to aid in memorization and accuracy. This information was passed on through word of mouth (oral tradition) before written history was normal. Bards were also expected to add to the history and would compose works that would be reflected in what they handed down.

Because bards were historians, they would act as teachers and advisors to their patrons. A bard was expected to provide interpretation on customary law, for example, based on history and advise based on that interpretation. They were a lot like legal counsel in that regard. It was expected that a bard would give good advice and not necessarily what a lord wished to hear. The same thing with the stories and poems. A bard was giving that information to teach through parable, not simply to entertain.

Performers had an entertainment goal. Bards could be called on for entertainment but the primary goal was to maintain history, teach, and advise through their works because of oral tradition.

Bards were also geneologists and eulogizers as part of their history keeping, and were expected to foretell the successes (or failures) of a deceased's predecessors as part of the eulogy. Lords wanted favorable histories of their deeds and bards wanted a good patron so bards were a typical part of court life as time progressed, and bards evolved to meet changes to written history in various ways.

The Celtic bards were also looking for true inspiration. Inspiration meant "possessed in spirit" at the time and starts moving into the mythical stories. The tales of Merlin were based on a bard, Gandalf was based on the eternal bard, and Taliesin is one of the best examples of a Celtic bard. Druids were specific to priesthood but bards were not necessarily priest back in those roots, but could function as priests if needed.

The role of the bard wasn't specific to western Europe. Cultures all over the world had oral tradition handled through stories, songs, poetry, and even dance. They performed similar roles in maintaining history, geneologies, etc; and they all had a magical / mystical quality associated with them. They all were expected to fit many different roles as needed over the course of their career and they normally had their specialties. It doesn't matter if we go with a bard, fili, kahuna, or skald. Bards in D&D are a catch all to cover these similar cultural equivalents as well as the adventuring minstrel.

I like the historical western Europe lore master historian, so I don't take perform proficiency. I can perform as much as needed with high CHA and jack-of-all-trades, and that trope is a standard bard trope without the performer focus. I use a spell component pouch instead of a focus and use instruments specifically for entertaining if it is something I choose to do.

That's just a bit of background. There are many ways to play a bard, and there are ways to use the perform skill. The perform skill isn't actually necessary, however, to be a bard.

[Sigreid]

As is so often the case, the answer is to talk to your DM. I for example would be willing to give advantage on a roll to persuade a crowd if you have performance. In fact, it's likely that without the performance skill I wouldn't let you use your persuasion modifier to persuade a crowd because you don't know how to work a mob. A performance check might let you entertain the bandit leader enough that he lets you live as a favored pet rather than feeding you to the dogs. I'd consider letting you use performance to tug at someone's heart strings, not persuading them of anything specific, but making them emotional. Performance would be the skill to fake an illness to catch the guards off guard. Performance would be the skill for acting the part of the beggar. There's a pretty long list where I could be convinced it's the right skill for the job, actually.

[RickAllison]

As is so often the case, the answer is to talk to your DM. I for example would be willing to give advantage on a roll to persuade a crowd if you have performance. In fact, it's likely that without the performance skill I wouldn't let you use your persuasion modifier to persuade a crowd because you don't know how to work a mob. A performance check might let you entertain the bandit leader enough that he lets you live as a favored pet rather than feeding you to the dogs. I'd consider letting you use performance to tug at someone's heart strings, not persuading them of anything specific, but making them emotional. Performance would be the skill to fake an illness to catch the guards off guard. Performance would be the skill for acting the part of the beggar. There's a pretty long list where I could be convinced it's the right skill for the job, actually.

This. Remember that often the key to getting a DM on your side is not doing something but how you do it. Inspiration is a biggie in this regard (I like to argue the "Eureka!" moment when a character has a sudden and great idea that gives him a boost of morale); my last Inspiration came from a level 5 Aarakocra rogue getting the idea to cut down a chandelier to make an impromptu Spike Growth/Entangle. Trying to trip someone by somersaulting in front of their feet could let you knock someone prone with Acrobatics instead of Athletics. Having both Performance and an instrument proficiency could easily be argued to provide advantage (having both the crowd presence and the technical skill).

Other important uses for Performance can include distractions and feigning death (especially in concert with Deception!). Your casters need a few more seconds to get buffs distributed? Put on a glorious spectacle away from them while quoting some movie or play: "I am -Insert Name Here! And I see a whole army of my countrymen here, in defiance of tyranny! ..." Heck, ham it up enough and convince your DM to give you Inspiration to keep you alive afterwards :smallwink:. Your rogue needs to steal something from a bazaar stall? Song and dance routine advertising your newest poultice (snake oil, etc.) that's guaranteed to overcome whatever ailments befall the buyers. Ham and Cheese are your friends as a Performance Bard.

[RickAllison]

Persuasion gets them in the sack, performance keeps them coming back.

You know, I hadn't thought of that, but it does make sense for the subject at hand. Maybe combine an Acrobatics check in there too :smallwink:

[Gwendol]

The bard is less performance-oriented this time around, and more of a caster. Homebrew a college is my advice, and pick up inspiration from PrC's such as the Seeker of Songs, Warchanter, Virtuoso, Dirgesinger, etc.

[Cazero]

1. The performance skill.

Like all good bards, this was my first skill I put training in. However, after playing a bard for about 3 games I have encountered an issue.

It is never actually used for anything.
You do not roll it to actually perform music, those are tools to be used.
Thusly, all my bard focuses are just tools not performance.
You do not roll it to talk to crowds, that is persuasion or deception, in our games at least.
You do not use it to disguise, that is deception, again in our game at least.
All perform does is like singing and dancing... which as far as I can tell other than just RP, means absolutely nothing.

Am I missing something or is essentially perform just a skill tax bard take for no reason?
You are missing something quite important.
There is no such thing as skill checks in 5e. There are ability checks. Skill/tool proficiencies are circumstances modifier.
As a circumstance modifier, there are situations where the performance skill enable you to add your proficiency bonus. Those situations often happens to overlap with tools proficiency (most of the times when playing music, but you have no clue how to keep the instrument in good condition), persuasion (an inspiring speech for a crowd is more an oratory performance than an exercise of diplomacy or speech-writing, but good luck using it to negotiate the exact terms of a treaty) and deception (a practiced disguise is not very different from stage theater, but you can hardly improvise something that isn't a cliché).
The overlap is irrelevant. Proficiency bonuses don't stack.

[bardo]

Persuasion gets them in the sack, performance keeps them coming back.

Not sure if you're arguing for proficiency in Performance, or against it.

Bardo.

[WickerNipple]

What book are those from?

http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf

[ruy343]

OK, to actually address the OP's question: yes, generally by RAW the performance skill is useless. However, part of the fun of D&D is to take advantage of less-useful skills and apply them in new ways.


Hunting for a group of bandits using your bard as live bait? Have him make a performance check to convince the bandits that he must be a rich musician.
Need to sneak into a camp at night to steal an object/assassinate a leader? What better distraction than a travelling performer? Perhaps your Performance check (being loud) can force the guards to roll with disadvantage on perception!
Need to convince some town guards that you're really a harmless bunch of groupies tailing a famous artist? Performance check!
Come across a group of natives who have no grasp of language? Convince them that you're friends with a handy performance check!


In this context, these probably seem like hedge cases. However, when playing, there can be several moments where a performance check can really come in handy.

Don't discount your proficiency in Vehicles (Water) either...