3.5e Gnome Rog3/Barb1 Ability Spread

[Reynard Loxley]

Hello all,

Just looking for some opinions on ability spreads for a core only (PHB only) rogue. I'm using the 32 point buy system and have normal gnome stats: -2 str and +2 con. (were getting a wish to redo our spreads).

I have a+1 comp bow so a positive str would be nice but not necessary. I have a glaive for reach and also a morningstar and usually daggers etc. I have a mythril chain shirt also.

Feats so far have been chosen based on story so I have a custom one that gives me a +1 to AC (its also a requirement for future custom feats) and I took the skill feat for UMD as we have no arcane caster at all. I also have a magic item that gives me +2 to UMD.

My main roles in the party are forward scout, detecting and unlocking traps and treasure as well as throwing the off flask or two (alchemists fire, tanglefoot etc). We have someone with about an 18 in cha but I will be required to talk as well quite a bit, plus my character has a history with cities and I always need to bluff a lot.

Any opinions would be great, also weapon suggestions or magic item suggestions are also welcome!

[Apricot]

It would be useful to know about the point in Barbarian, in terms of why you got it.

First, you do need to have positive Strength, or you're getting -2 to hit with the bow. So let's just quickly pencil that in. Dex should probably be maxed, because it's expected that you're going to be sneaking while scouting and throwing things. Both require Dex, and it gives you the AC that your little roguish self so greatly desires, so let's max it. Next, we have Con. You always need Con, but you get a nice racial bonus so let's just stick it at 12. You'll be disabling devices as well, so it's best to put Int at something positive. It'll also help you with getting enough skills to do everything you need. You're going to need decent Wis if you're going to scout, and your native Will save is pretty terrible too, so let's add in a bit of Wis. You say you want to UMD and talk to people, so that means Cha is going to have to be bumped up. So, with all that in mind, we end up with your pre-adjustment stats...

14 Str (-2) 6pt
18 Dex 10pt
12 Con (+2) 4pt
12 Int 4pt
12 Wis 4pt
12 Cha 4pt

Total: 32pt

Oh, hell. That looks pretty awful, doesn't it? Well, it's because you're trying to do basically everything, and there's no safe dump stat. Thanks to the composite bow and your racial penalty, you even need a serious investment in Strength. At this point, every choice of which stat to lose out on is the wrong one. I seriously recommend you rethink your build so you can give up on at least one stat, and possibly two. For example, if you have a full Barbarian or a Druid with Detect Snares and Traps, you can dump your int, and if you can dump the composite bow you only have to put 4 points in Strength to not lose out majorly on attacks. Similarly, if someone else can grab UMD by some messy trick or other, you can ignore Cha entirely. Oh, and if your DM is notoriously light on requiring you to make Will saves, you can ignore Wis too. You can take Dex down by a few points if you like, but that's almost certainly going to be your primary attack roll stat, so it might be unwise.

Dividing your attention lets you do a lot of things badly. Focusing lets you do one thing extremely well. I highly recommend the latter option.

Oh, yeah. Good weapons are ones which have a range increment of 30 so you can get solid sneak attacks and which don't rely on strength for damage, and good magic items are magic weapons, magic armor, Cloak of Resistance, and stat items.

[Reynard Loxley]

It would be useful to know about the point in Barbarian, in terms of why you got it.

Thanks for your response! The barbarian was for the extra movement and proficiency in more items (as well as rp story elements).

The comp bow isn't required, it was just nice to be able to add extra damage to my attacks. I can sell everything though really. My main issues will be scouting, traps and treasure and umd. I'm the only one able to have umd so that's an essential (unfortunately).

I don't know if that helps at all?

Thanks again for your input, I'm looking at getting some sleep arrows as well.

[Apricot]

All right, if we're getting rid of the comp bow, that gives us 2 points from Str. Might as well take 2 off of Con as well, since you'll be ranged. The extra 1 HP/level isn't a ton, but percentage-wise, it increases your total health by a lot. This gives us +2 to play around with for your three mental stats. So, let's do some math.

For each level of Rogue, you're going to have eight skill points as your base, meaning you can keep eight skills maxed. You'll suffer a little from the Barbarian level, so let's say that it's six skills with max investment and two at one point below. UMD, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, and Search are unquestionable givens. Hide and Move Silently are going to get a substantial bonus from your Dex, so it ought to be fine to leave those a point below. So, with all that handled, you have acceptable room left for some reasonable points in Bluff, Open Lock, and possibly things like Disguise. So skills aren't a massive concern, overall. The +1 I gave to Int would help you branch out more, but putting that up to +3 seems really excessive and would be proportionally weak. It's an option, though, if you want to do a ton. Overall, each +1 to Int wouldn't particularly help you make your skill checks as much as getting a higher modifier in the other two stats.

Now, one of the curious things about UMD is that it has a very particular point value where it starts working. There aren't a whole lot of scaled checks for it, so if you beat the one number, you get the majority of the skill unlocked. For UMD, that value is 20, which you need to use wands. Currently, with your feat and the magic item, you have +5 to UMD. At level 4, you can put 7 ranks into it (assuming you took Barbarian in the middle as opposed to at the end). So it's reasonable to expect that you'll have +12 to UMD. This means that your UMD checks will fail 40% of the time with Cha 10. So what if we bump it to 16? Well, you're only going to fail 25% of the time. Still not so great, but you should still be able to use most wands. So let's look at the other value: when you'll have +18, and only a 1 will fail you (which it would anyway, because you can't take 10 with the skill). Each level, you get one more point to UMD. So without any Cha investment, you'll hit the magic 18 at level 10. That's not too shabby. For each point in ability modifier you give to it, you'll gain access to near-perfect UMD use one level earlier. So with 3, you'll gain access to full use at 7. This is assuming you don't get any kind of Cha-boosting item or buff spell, of course. So the question here really depends on how long you expect the campaign to go for. If it's going to go for another dozen levels or so, it could be totally reasonable to just toss Cha to the side and get the full bang out of UMD later. On the other hand, if it's only going to go until level 10, it'll suck to only get the full potential of the skill late. It's up to you.

Finally, let's talk Wis. Wis is really the power option. You aren't going to be increasing your will saves very much as a Rogue, and only Rage and the variety of relevant magical items probably won't show up until later. And Wis is going to give you a huge bonus, on that front: every +1 to your modifier will give you the equivalent of three levels of Rogue, as far as your will saves are concerned. Putting Wis to 16 will give you a bonus your Rogue levels won't match until 9th level. In addition, Wis gives you substantial bonuses to Spot and Listen, and if you want, you can also expand into Sense Motive for similar purposes. However, Wis loses a lot of its strength if you don't need to make particularly high Spot and Listen checks, and if you aren't facing a lot of enchanty spellcasters.

Overall, it's a very context-based choice. Are you going to have to shoulder extra skill-based burdens and disarm lots of traps? Are you going to want to use wands early and often? Are you going to need to make will saves and scout a lot? Heck, are you going to take tons of damage and get repeatedly poisoned? Con is a viable choice too. You know your DM and your playgroup better than I do, so I'm not going to give a precise optimization answer. However, this is what you should keep in mind when you're finalizing your choice. Don't be afraid to go all-in on a skill other than Dex, either, as long as you have good reasons for it. So my final recommendation is:

Str 12 (-2)
Dex 18
Con 10 (+2)
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10

with 10 more points to shuffle around the bottom four stats. If I were to pick something reasonably strong and flexible, it would look like this (after adjustments):

Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 14

But please, make your own judgments so that it fits your group. I mean, if nobody else has a melee combatant worth a cent, you could even pump up Strength and use Rage for the angriest little gnome ever.

[Reynard Loxley]

But please, make your own judgments so that it fits your group. I mean, if nobody else has a melee combatant worth a cent, you could even pump up Strength and use Rage for the angriest little gnome ever.

Thank you so much for your help, and for all the detail. Left me with lots to ponder! Angriest little gnome does have a nice ring to it!