dear god... I just had an entirley elan-based revalation

[Wolfman42666]

Way back when, in 393:truth, Elan's after reaction of what appeared to me at the time as Elan completely not comprehending what had occurred, strikes me now as, well maybe insecurity of character.

I mean put yourself in his place:
*everyone in his life (before the order) can't stand him and runs away before long (like Haley’s friends and even her mother as she said during their date I think?)

*The girl he likes (loves?) and has done for over a year, didn't kiss him on New Years Eve,
*his first thought in he throne room when she looked mad, seemed like "have I done something wrong?" (To me)

*he'd just learnt, or so he thought, that Haley hated him like everyone else does, (nale bluffing like, well, nale)

*that she had been *loving* Nale, who'd he'd just been incarcerated because of,

*when all of a she suddenly yells "I’m in love with you, I was kissing him because I thought he was you"

*(and, again, his first thought runs to "you're fixed" which suggests to me that he is in love with her, because he considers how this affects her before considering how it affects him).

*For Haley the emphasis in her yelling was "I'm in love with you” but I for Elan it was "I thought I was kissing you"

*which is backed up by what he says when Haley questions him about, again put yourself in his shoes the girl he’s just rushed to rescue admits she wants to kiss him,

**If that happened to me I’d smile all day, and I mean that, **

*Elan just appears moronic because he expects life (and the universe) to follow a code of conduct, i.e. what he learnt at bard camp, and that despite this (as he learnt from nale) that appearances can be deceiving

*if you don't want to end up completely lost as to the point skip the bit in-between this and the next one.

Kind of like Nordom's logic, except Elan's covers more things.

*(For those who don't know Nordom was a rogue construct in the game planescape torment. To understand what this means I’m going to give you a history lesson.

*His species Modron were constructs created on the plane of law.

*They then found a way to use their logical thinking to create whatever they wanted on the plane of chaos.

*The problem was the more they were exposed to the plane the more "chaos" entered into their system and well drove them to their equivalent of *insane*

* Nordom was with the modrons in Limbo, the plane of chaos,

*and long story short (ha!) he was over exposed and became literally a backwards modron (see his name)
*but despite this he stuck to a very logical way of thinking. And actually started whirring and clicking when the planes failed to live up to this)

but back to the point

*I don't think he's stupid; imagine you've just realised that the girl you like admits that she likes you! I’d be thinking she really likes me!
Anyway;

*imagine that kind of glowing feeling you get as an adult, I think that's what's going through Elan’s head in those comics,

(*rather than "she's in love with me", possibly because no-one stuck around long enough to explain it to him, and he wouldn't know from his parent's what with their divorce and all.)

*I think Elan appears as moronic or stupid because the story is being told from someone with a very different point of view.

*I'd like to see what those comics look like through Elan's eyes,
(I mean after he comes crashing in it's more from Haley’s viewpoint than his, since we see what goes through her mind, out of her mouth whatever, rather than what’s in Elan’s head when the linear guild re-enter.)

If you ask me Elan's way more misunderstood that lets say, oh Belkar (just because I prefer him to Miko, and if you think there are even more misunderstood characters in this story feel free to say so, leeky windstaff maybe?)
...
Discuss

edit: Sorry, sorry I always lose marks in essay's because of that

[Setra]

Er.. do you think you could..

Maybe edit that a bit, to make it easier to read? Like hitting enter a bit more often? It hurts my eyes to read walls of text.

[InuSaga]

Sorry, I have to agree with Setra.:smallfrown:

[BanjoTheClown]

Im Sorry, i dont understand what your trying to say about elan-based relavations.:smalleek:

[evileeyore]

Did it involve jam or jelly? I don't think it can truly be an Elan based revelation without preserves or puppetry.

[Morty]

I don't quite understand what were you trying to say here. If you mean that Elan only appears to be moronic but in fact he's acting like a fool because he's got inferiority complex and abandonment issues, then I agree.

[meioziz]

I just think the OP has problems with splitting sentences up, and some grammar issues...

Let me try to edit/translate this for him:


Way back when, in 393:truth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html), Elan's reaction strikes me now as, well maybe insecurrity of character. (At that time, it appeared to me that Elan completely mis-comprehended what had occured.)

I mean, try to put yourself in Elan's place:
- Everyone in his life (before the order) can't stand him and runs away;
- The girl he likes (loves?), and has done so for over a year, didn't kiss him on new years eve;
- His first thought in the throne room when she looked mad was, "have I done something wrong?"
- He'd just learned (in 393), or so he thought, that haley hated him like everyone else does, that she had been loving Nale, (of whom Elan has gone to jail instead)
- When she suddenly yells "i'm in love with you, i was kissing him beacuse i thought he was you";

Now, his first thought runs to "you're fixed" which suggests to me that he is in love with her -- because he considers how this affects her before how it affects him.

Except! For haley, the emphasis was "I'm in love with you". For Elan, I think it was "i thought i was kissing you". This is backed up by what he says when Haley questions him about it. Again, put yourself in his shoes: the girl he's just rushed to rescue admits she wants to kiss him. If that happened to me I'd smile all day. And i mean that, Elan just appears moronic because he expects life (the universe) to follow a code of conduct, i.e. what he learned at bard camp. And Elan still thinks this way, despite evidence of Nale's deceipt should have told him that that appearances can be deceiving.

I can't edit/translate this because I don't know who Nordom is: (kinda like Nordom's logic, except Elan's covers more things).

I don't think Elan's stupidly thinking, "she likes me! she really likes me!". The kind of glowy feeling you get as an adult is what's going through Elan's head in those comics, rather than "omigod she's in love with me". This is possibly because no-one has stuck around long enough to explain it to him, and he wouldn't know from his parent's what with their divorce and all.

I think elan comes off as moronic or not understanding because the story is being told from someone with a very different perspectives point of view. I'd like to see what those comics look like through Elan's eyes. I mean, after he comes crashing in (through the window), the comic's more from Haley's viewpoint than his, evidence being that we see what happens to her rather than Elan when the linear guild re-enters.

If you ask me who's more misunderstood than Elan, then I'd say, oh, Belkar (just because i prefer him to miko).
...
Discuss

edit: Sorry, sorry i always lose marks in essay's because of that

There, this should (hopefully) reflect more of what the OP wants to say.

[BardicLasher]

I actually never percieved 393's last panel as Elan not understanding. I percieve it to be his face from the sudden shock of a) Haley being able to speak and b) OH SNAP! SHE LOVES ME!

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd drop my jaw if a hot female friend that I had a crush on told me she loved me.

[Droodle]

I can't edit/translate this because I don't know who Nordom is:
(kinda like Nordom's logic, except Elan's covers more things). For those who don't know, Nordom is a Rogue Modron (http://www.planewalker.com/entry.php?intEntryID=7782) from the Planescape Campaign setting. Modron's are creatures of law who don't even recognize their own individuality. A Rogue Modron does, but is still heavily hampered by its computer-like reasoning,

[Roderick_BR]

Let's make it short: Elan is childish. Is that it?
Yeah, he gets scolded by authority figures, acts as an immature teenager at times, and has a hard time trying to notice girls, other than his "bardic duties".
He's been growing up a lot recently, though.

[Ridureyu]

Obviously this all proves that Elan is going to become a Blackguard.

[Wolfman42666]

i'm sorry i didn't form proper conhesive english i was in a rush to get my ideas down, and at the best of times, even if i say take an hour over a paragh i'ts illegible, i'll try my very best to translate all of it for you.
also what's an op?:smallconfused:

[Gundato]

Wow...

Look, just type it up in MS Word and run a spellcheck/grammar check thingie. Problem solved. It won't be perfect, but it won't look like a 3-year old took a crap on it :p

And I always thought it was pretty obvious that there was more to Elan than just brain damage.

[Wolfman42666]

Your advice while appreaciated and good didn't need to be written quite like that.
3 Things
1) It was something I'd just thought of, if I don't get that kind of thing written (typed) quickly then I forget it and it bugs me later.
2) I don't spend all my time making sure something I've posted is gramatically perfect.
3) I make a point not to hit someone unless they've done something that would make me *hate* that person, had you just said that to me Gundato or anyone i know, I would've. Ass.

[Omicroncubed]

wow... I never thought of it that way.

I've always read and understood what was going on but I never thought that how the characters... let's say ''feel'' inside. Well except for Haley after strip 393.

Guess I should start taking a closer look.

[Wolfman42666]

Originally posted by Omicroncubed


wow... I never thought of it that way.

I've always read and understood what was going on but I never thought that how the characters... let's say ''feel'' inside. Well except for Haley after strip 393.

Guess I should start taking a closer look.

you should do that only if you want to start writing long posts,
(which incidentally everyone then disects for every mistake you make,)

but doing it for things that need a different point of view for, like maybe Miko :smallcool:
*God I love using her as an example, I could come up with them all day*

[GrayMatter]

Did it involve jam or jelly? I don't think it can truly be an Elan based revelation without preserves or puppetry.
I'd say he could get pretty far with a kazoo too :D

[CardinalFang]

I would disagree. Elan seems very casual in his feelings (I am NOT calling him shallow). He easily seduces Samantha for no real reason other than it's part of his job description. He gets room keys off of random partying women in Azure City, and midnight kisses as well. And he certainly LIKES Haley "I want you back in one Haley-shaped piece" anyone?), and he obviously cares about being with her, but I just don't see him as getting all heart-poundingly weak-kneed because of Haley's confession. I mean, his response to her waffling and cover-up was to ask "wanna make out?" instead of, say, telling her that he loves/likes/cares for her. For Elan, it's enough that they care about each other and enjoy spending time together.

Also, I have got to know: Wolfman, just where is Brition?

[Wolfman42666]

It’s a small island just of the isle of white, that doesn't show up on any maps or satellite pictures, and can only be found by those who already know where it is.


... Which coincidentally made it stupidly difficult getting a broadband conection.:smallsmile:

Edit: also back to Elan, about the Samantha etc, etc I don't think he really gets what's going on, as wikipedia says he survives on his charm, but he's done a lot of growing up recently, and you've got to give a guy who chose bard as a profession a little leeway.

[CardinalFang]

It’s a small island just of the isle of white, that doesn't show up on any maps or satellite pictures, and can only be found by those who already know where it is.


... Which coincidentally made it stupidly difficult getting a broadband conection.:smallsmile:

Edit: also back to Elan, about the Samantha etc, etc I don't think he really gets what's going on, as wikipedia says he survives on his charm, but he's done a lot of growing up recently, and you've got to give a guy who chose bard as a profession a little leeway.

I'm sorry, but unless it was completely written by the author, I refuse to believe wikipedia's character analysis of any webcomic character (irrespective of their recent attitude towards webcomics in general).

[BobTheFerret]

There's one widdle thing wrong with it...

Elan's chaotic.

Also, not only is 'thinks things should be logical' an explanation completely ignoring some of the things Elan's done (like... let's say, Banjo, or maybe that incident involving jam...) but ignores the explanation given in the strip: i.e. that baby Nale thwacked baby Elan's unformed head, damaging his brain.

[mockingbyrd7]

wow... I never thought of it that way.

I've always read and understood what was going on but I never thought that how the characters... let's say ''feel'' inside. Well except for Haley after strip 393.

Guess I should start taking a closer look.

Same here. I just kind of realized that Elan really isn't truly an idiot... he's a young adult with noticeable brain damage from his childhood, but a good heart and a free spirit... this combination leads him to often feel insecure and emotional, causing him to act foolishly or immaturely in an attempt to do the right thing. However, these foolish actions can cause bad results (The Redmountain Gate, for example) and then he gets scolded and becomes more insecure and emotional. Elan is a vicious cycle, and it's all traceable back to his evil twin brother who would smack him as a baby.

I always thought of Elan as just a carefree idiot before this. He's always been my favorite character, but now I truly see the depth behind his character. BRAVO, Burlew!

[evileeyore]

He was a carefree idiot. But he grew.

He discovered sometimes people hate you, when they should love you, and it doesn't have to make sense (from anything other than a Bardic perspective). I reference his brother.

He discovered his friends are realy his friends, and that sometimes his childishness can hurt them, just as their seriousness can hurt him. I reference Vaarsuvius and the "Me Too" Cross-Class mage incident.

He discovered that someone who he adored and possibly loved, loved him as well and love isn't just all about a shallow one-night stand. I reference Haley and the night inquestion.

He discovered he can persevere and succeed, overcoming amazing odds to save the day... granted he totally relied on his Bardic Plot-Luck, but still he did it.

Elan has changed, subtely, but he has changed. And yeah, I think the 'SNAP' was him being goobsmacked by the idea that someone could love him deeply and truly, and not just in a casual shallow meaningless, another Bardic night sort of way.

[Wolfman42666]

To BobTheFerret
The bit about Elan's *logic* read about Nordom and you'll understand.
some people.

on a different note, this thread made me a halfling, woo:smallbiggrin:

[Holy_Knight]

I would disagree. Elan seems very casual in his feelings (I am NOT calling him shallow). He easily seduces Samantha for no real reason other than it's part of his job description. He gets room keys off of random partying women in Azure City, and midnight kisses as well. And he certainly LIKES Haley "I want you back in one Haley-shaped piece" anyone?), and he obviously cares about being with her, but I just don't see him as getting all heart-poundingly weak-kneed because of Haley's confession. I mean, his response to her waffling and cover-up was to ask "wanna make out?" instead of, say, telling her that he loves/likes/cares for her. For Elan, it's enough that they care about each other and enjoy spending time together.

Actually, I agree with the OP, and I think you're overlooking some important things. As for Elan's "wanna make out" line, that took me by surprise at first too, but then I realized two things:

1) It's the kind of straightforward simplicity you'd expect from someone expressing genuine feeling, in contrast to Nale's scripted, overly dramatic manipulative verbosity;

and, perhaps more importantly,

2) It parallels the scene here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html), where we get our hint of real romantic tension between the two of them--tension which is, at long last, resolved.


Aside from that, I think Wolfman makes some good observations, and I agree with him. A while ago I made a post which theorized why Elan was so oblivious to Haley's feelings for him. (I'd link to it if I could, but it's from too long ago.) Here's the short version of it:

Although Elan is naturally attractive to women, he also has a childlike, at times irritating quality about him, and we know that he has a history of people abandoning him. So, while he probably did have lots of girls wanting to be with him, their affections would quickly fade, and so anyone who seemed to be interested in him romantically would soon leave, and not want to spend any real time with him. On the other hand, the few people who actually liked him for who he is as a person weren't interested in him romantically. So, Elan subconsciously had a sharp distinction in his mind between two categories: romantically interested people and friends. Since Haley really does care about Elan as a person, and treated him as such, in his mind that excluded her as being in the other category, which is why he was so unable to see what was obvious to everyone else. The irony being, of course, that not only was she interested in him, she really loved him.

Anyway, good observations Wolfman, and fortunately for Elan and Haley they're both on the same page now concerning their feelings.

:elan: :haley: