You Can't Spell Necromancer Without Romance

[FocusWolf413]

Can you guys help me make a Bard that's a competent Necromancer? I don't mean a few Necromancy spells here and there, I mean raising armies of the undead and buffing the heck out of them. I'm aiming for moderate optimization: playable, strong enough, but no early-entry-infinite-wish-hullabaloo. I can use all of Pathfinder, 3.5, DSP, and a few other third party things here and there.

I was thinking something like Bard/Sublime Chord/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge, but I'm not sure.

Help please!

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly, have to pay my dues...

'Cause this is Thriller!

I fulfill my obligation. Now, to answer your question, there's a couple useful things for bardic necromancers: the first is the feat "Requiem" from Libris Mortis, which makes your bardic music affect undead despite Mind-Affecting Immunity (albeit at half duration); it's one of the few ways to bypass Mind-Affecting Immunity by RAW, IIRC. The second is the PrC "Dirgesinger", which is also from Libris Mortis and requires Requiem. It's a wonderful PrC for what you're doing, and combines well with Sublime Chord, but working it into a build with Bard, Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest, and Mystic Theurge might be tricky.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

For Pathfinder, the Dirge Bard archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dirge-bard) is the closest thing to a necromancy bard there is, though its light on the 'army' aspect. It CAN create undead, and its not even evil when using Dance of the Dead!

[FocusWolf413]

Firstly, have to pay my dues...

'Cause this is Thriller!

I fulfill my obligation. Now, to answer your question, there's a couple useful things for bardic necromancers: the first is the feat "Requiem" from Libris Mortis, which makes your bardic music affect undead despite Mind-Affecting Immunity (albeit at half duration); it's one of the few ways to bypass Mind-Affecting Immunity by RAW, IIRC. The second is the PrC "Dirgesinger", which is also from Libris Mortis and requires Requiem. It's a wonderful PrC for what you're doing, and combines well with Sublime Chord, but working it into a build with Bard, Sublime Chord, Ur-Priest, and Mystic Theurge might be tricky.

I really have no idea what I'm doing. Generally, I build gishes and skill monkeys. Full casters are not my territory. I know the build I proposed is technically good (because clerics and rebuke undead), but I feel like it's too much.

Looking at Dirgesinger... wow. That looks fun. How would I build that, though? What would the level breakdown look like?


For Pathfinder, the Dirge Bard archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dirge-bard) is the closest thing to a necromancy bard there is, though its light on the 'army' aspect. It CAN create undead, and its not even evil when using Dance of the Dead!

Hmmm... I really like half of that, and I really don't like the other half. :/

[DrMotives]

Arcane Devotion will let you add the Death domain spells 1/day to your casting list, and includes all 3 core undead creation spells. It's a shame vampire has such a high level adjustment, because thematically it fits very well for a necromancer bard, morso than lich.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I wouldn't touch Dirgesinger, honestly-- it doesn't really progress much that you care about (no spells, no Inspire Courage) and the songs are all easily replaced by spells.

If you play a Necropolitan, Kin Mastery (Dragon Compendium) can give you 1/day rebuke as a cleric of 1/2 your arcane caster level. It's not easy to get a stacking Rebuke otherwise. You might look at Divine Bard, which would at least let you play with Cleric-focused PrCs that progress such things.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Dirge Bards also add 5 necromancy spells to their list over their career. The Dance of the Dead performance is a neat trick you can do for free, though.

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Pale Master 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Pale Master 8
Requires the feats: Requiem and Arcane Disple: Necromancer (ECS)

Dread Necromancer 8/ Heartfire Fanner (Drg #314) 1/ Vitruoso 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Virtuoso 8 - Requires the feat Apprentice: Entertainer (DMG II)

Bard 7/ Dirgesinger 2/ Pale Master 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Pale Master 9 - Requires the feats Arcane Disciple: Necromancer Domain (ECS) and Requiem

Dread Necromancer 9/ Prestige Bard 1/ Virtuoso 10 - Requires the feats Apprentice: Entertainer and Arcane Disciple: Illusion Domain

For all these builds consider taking the feat Undead Leadership.

[Graypairofsocks]

I feel I should mention that there is a deity of the undead and romance called Evening Glory.

[Inevitability]

I feel I should mention that there is a deity of the undead and romance called Evening Glory.

Even better: she can have NG clerics.

"FEAR MY UNDYING LEGIONS OF RESTLESS DEAD! ALSO, HOLYNESS!"

[Tiri]

They won't be NG for long if they keep making undead legions. Also, holiness isn't good (or, you know, what most real-world people think is good). It's just whatever a deity considers to be good. Genocide would be holy to the god of genocide.

[FocusWolf413]

They won't be NG for long if they keep making undead legions. Also, holiness isn't good (or, you know, what most real-world people think is good). It's just whatever a deity considers to be good. Genocide would be holy to the god of genocide.

Making undead isn't inherently evil. You can always use them for stuff like mining and farming.

[Inevitability]

Also, holiness isn't good (or, you know, what most real-world people think is good). It's just whatever a deity considers to be good. Genocide would be holy to the god of genocide.

Not really. 3.5 has a pretty clear division between 'holy' (good and neutral) and 'unholy' (evil). So if a character has 'holy' power, they probably aren't evil.

[Telonius]

I made a similar character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19308582&postcount=40) for a Villainous Competition a while ago. Bard1/Paladin5/Dirgesinger5/Bone Knight9
(Though if Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge is on the table, the character is probably a bit weak for your taste...)

[Hamste]

Not really. 3.5 has a pretty clear division between 'holy' (good and neutral) and 'unholy' (evil). So if a character has 'holy' power, they probably aren't evil.

To be fair d&d completely misuses the word holy. Holy just means dedicated to a god. They also misuse the word sacred applying it as a strictly positive thing. Saying a god is unholy doesn't actually make any sense unless they are a false god which presumably most evil d&d gods are not.

[Deadline]

I did a Bardic necromancer for the Thrall of Orcus round in Iron Chef (Derek "Balefire" Bragg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16084344&postcount=270)), but he was more of a melee combatant than full-fledged necromancer.

I also submitted a second build to that competition, but I think it only took 4th or 5th. It's not a bardic necromancer, but it is a druidic/blighter based one whose theme relies on "lost love", Doctor Dellamorte (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16084326&postcount=268).

gorfnab's suggestions are pretty solid if you want to go the more traditional full caster route.

If not, you may want to look into picking up a couple levels of Horned Harbinger. At 2nd level, they get Animate Dead as a spell-like ability once per day. Spell-like abilities don't have material component costs, which is a huge cost saver for animating hordes or a collection of large undead brutes.


Making undead isn't inherently evil. You can always use them for stuff like mining and farming.

Casting an evil spell is an evil act. I'm not aware of any non-evil spells that animate or create undead.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Crazy stupid build: NE female drow bard 5/druid 1/horned harbinger 2/ur-priest 2/sublime chord 1/fochluchan lyrist 2/yathrinshee 1/fochluchan lyrist +6 (with LA buyoff). You have to be neutral evil, you need a bunch of feats (two incarnum feats for Evasion, Requiem to use bardic music on undead, two to enter Ur-Priest, two to enter Yathrinshee, Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten for Sublime Chord), you need to switch patrons (Myrkul to Kiaransalee), and it's much better if you can learn Druidic without taking levels in druid. In the end, you do get double ninths and 14th-level bardic music, but very late. You probably can't use Words of Creation due to your alignment (though you can take the feat), so your Inspire Courage isn't that awesome.

On the other hand, the formula for your caster level is delightful.

- When you use the HH 2 animate dead SLA, your caster level (as per HH 2) is two plus your charisma bonus, "which stacks with any other class the character has which can cast animate dead". I take that to mean that all levels stack together.
- You can cast animate dead as Ur-priest and as Sublime Chord (not as bard).
- When you cast animate dead, which is a necromancy spell, you use the sum of all your caster levels, as per Yathrinshee 1.
- Your caster level for Ur-Priest is 2.5 bard, 0.5 druid, 2 UP, and 8 FL, plus possibly 1 SC (it has its own casting, which could make it a caster class), for a total of 14 - we're taking the optimistic estimate.
- Your caster level for Sublime Chord is 14.
- That means your total caster level for animate dead is 14 + 14 = 28, both for UP and SC.
- That means your CL for your animate dead SLA is 58 + CHA.

You can add Practiced Spellcaster to UP and SC, to get another 8, but you're already short on feats. Consumptive field can add another 7 to each caster side (+28 total), and PS + field increases them both to 27, for a nice total of 110 + CHA, but you have no way to persist consumptive field. Still, you can kill a bunch of people with the field, get the CL boost, then animate them.




In short, you can get really funky high caster levels with a ridiculously involved build, and still have 14th-level bardic music.

[WeaselGuy]

It's funny, cause I was actually working on a Dirgesinger build earlier today! What I came up with was the following:

Deepwyrm Half-Drow Bard 6/Ur-Priest 2/Dirgesinger 5/Mystic Theurge 7.

MT 7 can be swapped out for something that progresses Ur-Priest casting instead of Ur-Priest plus Bard, but that's really up to you. I hadn't decided on all of the feats and ACF's yet, but the big one for me was swapping out Suggestion at 6 for Command. Basic feat selection was something like the following:

1: Dragonfire Inspiration
3: Spell Focus (Evil)
4: Otyugh Hole (Iron Will)
6: Requiem

At 9 and 12, you can take feats to gain entry to a divine progressing prestige class, or go the divine metamagic route to burn rebuke attempts

9: Extend Spell
12: Persistent Spell
15: Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
18: Extra Turning

Whatever you take for your last 7 levels, make sure it increases divine spellcasting so that you can get 9th level divine spells. This build is Cha-Wis MAD though, just keep that in mind.

[atemu1234]

Arcane Devotion will let you add the Death domain spells 1/day to your casting list, and includes all 3 core undead creation spells. It's a shame vampire has such a high level adjustment, because thematically it fits very well for a necromancer bard, morso than lich.

The Grateful (Un)Dead disagree.