High vs low magic

[sammyp03]

I have 99% of my homebrew setting fleshed out except for one thing. The magic level of my world. I see both sides and have played in both low and high magic settings and enjoyed them equally. I'm hoping that some of you awesome people can tell me a bit about the magic in the settings you've ran so that I may get a feeling towards witch one makes most sense.

[Gritmonger]

Done both - but prefer low magic, particularly in 5th edition, where you don't have a framework that is based in part on achieving benchmarks of magic items per level. Magic items can be special, unique, and "flavored" with the new DMG especially so that you don't end up with yet another +1 sword. With low magic, mages are not that common, and miracles are still miraculous.

With high magic, I end up doing "practical" and "permanent" magics like teleportation circles and the like, but you can make them either "modern" tech or "lost" tech, depending on how available you want to make the technology to your players. If it is ancient tech, building one of your own is a quest. If it is modern tech, expect your players to build them.

[McNinja]

The classes and monsters so far are generally built around less magic, or specifically fewer magical items. It would be easier on you as a DM since everything's based around lower magic settings.

[Kane0]

Done both, prefer low. You just appreciate things a little bit more I suppose, you have an easier time keeping track of things and don't run the risk of rocket tag.

High magic: Robes of +2 to religion? How much can I sell it for?
Low Magic: Robes of +2 to religion? The high priest will give us free heals for months if we give him this!

[MaxWilson]

Personally, I like low magic--I want my game to be about me and my intrinsic capabilities, not the stuff that my character wears. Magic items are not cool to me.

My players seem to like magic items though, the quirkier the better. The Minor Magical Properties tables in the DMG are your friend. I write each item's name/backstory/powers/quirks/effects on wielder on index cards and let my players draw at random from a hand of cards when they find a treasure hoard.

One final thought: back in 2nd edition, one valid playstyle was to make magic items common(ish), but fragile. For example, failing a saving throw vs. Fireball meant all your magic items had to make saving throws too against magical fire or be destroyed. I never played with that rule at full strength (had some house rules to make it more likely for e.g. magical swords to survive Fireball, being metal and all) but it probably both explains my distaste for relying on magic items and my wistful desire to bring some of that flavor into 5E. You could call this the "high magic, high turnover" style.

[Logosloki]

I think it would help if you did give us an elevator pitch on your setting. I like the ideas of both but I feel that it can get too us vs themy with the application.

My ad hoc setting that I use is like the age of discovery for magic. Ancient scrolls and codices flowing in from old roads re-connected.There are few, if any ruins or lost civilisations that can be rolled for xp and loot close by. Magic and society are starting to integrate with each other, with people building the necessary frameworks to allow magical and non-magical practitioners the space, time, resources and safety to experiment in peace (earthshattering kabooms being only a minor detail). New Trade routes are being founded with tales of the exotic and wonder of faraway lands.

[Trasilor]

Don't forget, "low magic" does not only mean few magical items. It means most of the population has never seen magic performed before. This means that NPCs will have strong reactions upon seeing magic being cast.

In today's society, people are amazed at slight of hand illusions performed by 'magicians'. Imagine how amazed people would be seeing actual magic performed.

This can both positive or negative depending on the situation. Just don't go all one or the other :smallamused:

It gets old when every village turns into an angry mob at seeing the wizard cast a spell - particularly after he just saved the the town. :smallamused:

[Millstone85]

Don't forget, "low magic" does not only mean few magical items. It means most of the population has never seen magic performed before. This means that NPCs will have strong reactions upon seeing magic being cast.Our DM seems to run his FR campaign on the idea that magical items are rare but spellcasters are commonplace. There is no market for enchanted weapons and such but most scholars are wizards and nearly all priests are clerics. Is that expected of FR and how would you call such a setting?

[Shining Wrath]

I kind of like magic items being rare but not unobtainable - do a favor for a dragon, get rewarded with some uncommon magic items from his stash. Most human villages have at least seen a druid or a cleric pass through, and of course sorcerers pop up from time to time everywhere.

[Talamare]

I prefer Medium, leaning towards Low Magic

Magic items are incredibly rare, I want players to feel. "OH SNAP! a MAGIC ITEM?! OKAY GUYS LETS THINK DEEPLY ABOUT WHO GETS IT!!"
Not... "Hmm, 2 more Magic Items, toss them into the sell pile"

While the world itself knows and acknowledge Magic exist, but its an uncommon practice. Like, lets say if each Nation had Armies. The majority of the Soldiers are still just Fighters, but they likely have let's say 5 Casters for every 30~50 Fighters. Also yes, that might mean a village in the boonies might never have seen or even heard about magic. However pretty much every other village knows it exists and probably has a few people in the village that knows some magic. Probably only in the Cantrip or level 1.

[Oramac]

has a few people in the village that knows some magic. Probably only in the Cantrip or level 1.

I like this idea.

"You walk into the [helpful guys] house and see a fist-sized rock hanging from the ceiling for no apparent reason. The [helpful guy] walks into the room, waves his hand, and the rock lights up the room with a soft glow. [Helpful Guy] says, 'And that's all the magic I know! Now, what can I do for you?'"

[Talamare]

I like this idea.

"You walk into the [helpful guys] house and see a fist-sized rock hanging from the ceiling for no apparent reason. The [helpful guy] walks into the room, waves his hand, and the rock lights up the room with a soft glow. [Helpful Guy] says, 'And that's all the magic I know! Now, what can I do for you?'"

Ya know, Even in real life right now, If I had magical "the clapper" powers of creating a lightbulb with my fingers I would still find it really useful.
No more wandering the dark stubbing my toes every time I use the bathroom

Can you imagine Magic Hands being treated as like a really weak telekinesis

A kid walks up to your party after your heroic deeds and asks to join. He clarifies he would be useful due to knowing 'powerful' magic as he begins to demonstrate his abilities. A rag on the other side of the room lifts up and very... VERY slowly begins floating towards your direction as you notice the veins on the kids forehead expand as he struggles and groans, you can tell he's trying his absolute hardest to impress your group.

[mephnick]

High or low magic should make a massive difference in your setting, so you really should be prepared to redo a bunch of your setting depending on what you decide or things just won't line up in the players' minds after a while.

That being said, it's much easier to use a low magic setting and then use exceptions to really highlight the importance of certain things. Someone can resurrect a long dead family member with just a lock of hair? Damn, that's crazy! Prepare to be mobbed by commoners if word gets out that you can perform miracles. Someone torched an entire village with fire from the sky? This is now the most dangerous person in the entire setting. That stranger from a foreign land just killed the king with a single word? How powerful are the rest of them? Oh god, will they invade? That sword can freeze people? Woah!

I find it exponentially harder to use a high magic setting and make any single thing feel special. If magic weapons are everywhere and every city has 20 level 20 characters in it, how do you make the characters important at all? You can do it obviously, but it's definitely a struggle for me and not my preferred choice.

[gullveig]

I give more consumable magic items than permanent magic items. Potions, poisons, scrolls and even wands with only few charges.
Players found the items in dungeons or treasure chests or as rewards from quests. They do no go to shop buy some magic stuff.
Sell a potion of Bull's Strength and you will never see a potion of Bull's Strength again...

My NPCs are weak in power mechanically speaking. Hardly higher than CR 1 or 2, but they can have armies and lots of gold and plentiful allies.
Sure, you are a level 20 Wizard, but Kill a king and you will be hunted by his heirs and and all his allies. There will be one Crusade or more just for your head.

I don't like divine magic as being common thing. No magic healing in my campaigns. Whenever I use divine magic it is like "OMG! He cures the leper, he resurrect the dead, he casts Create Food and Water. OMG! He is Jesus F**king Christ!"

[DizzyWood]

Remember High magic is not necessarily lvl 20 casters running around. It can mean cantrips and lvl one magic are dirt common. Self igniting candles and pots that keep food warm could be common and sold in many shops. Along with a few more lvl 5 caster types running around than the game default suggests. While a common person might not be THAT impressed with a magical healing the might FREAK out over more powerful magic. It could even be about practical magic that is seen as useful in every day life is common but magic missile... WTF man who takes the time to invent that spell?!?!?!?!?! There are a lot of way to build a world around D&D magic. Once you find a system that works for the setting give your characters loot that would make sense for the world and the guest they are one. IF they get to many good toys and it is to much to handle well just have it all stolen!!!! Sure they will hate you for it but it can be fun figuring how not to rely on your boot of +50 a$$ kickery!

[Oramac]

It could even be about practical magic that is seen as useful in every day life is common but magic missile... WTF man who takes the time to invent that spell?!?!?!?!?!

Lumos vs. Sectumsempra.

[MaxWilson]

Don't forget, "low magic" does not only mean few magical items. It means most of the population has never seen magic performed before. This means that NPCs will have strong reactions upon seeing magic being cast.

In today's society, people are amazed at slight of hand illusions performed by 'magicians'. Imagine how amazed people would be seeing actual magic performed.

This can both positive or negative depending on the situation. Just don't go all one or the other :smallamused:

It gets old when every village turns into an angry mob at seeing the wizard cast a spell - particularly after he just saved the the town. :smallamused:

Another possible reaction: bow down before the the Jedi's droid^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwizard's Dragonborn companion and start worshipping him as a god.

[JackPhoenix]

Remember High magic is not necessarily lvl 20 casters running around. It can mean cantrips and lvl one magic are dirt common. Self igniting candles and pots that keep food warm could be common and sold in many shops. Along with a few more lvl 5 caster types running around than the game default suggests. While a common person might not be THAT impressed with a magical healing the might FREAK out over more powerful magic. It could even be about practical magic that is seen as useful in every day life is common but magic missile... WTF man who takes the time to invent that spell?!?!?!?!?! There are a lot of way to build a world around D&D magic. Once you find a system that works for the setting give your characters loot that would make sense for the world and the guest they are one. IF they get to many good toys and it is to much to handle well just have it all stolen!!!! Sure they will hate you for it but it can be fun figuring how not to rely on your boot of +50 a$$ kickery!

That's pretty much how Eberron works. Low level magic is everywhere (In 5e terms, a lot of people would have Magic Initiate with things like Prestidigitation, Unseen Servant, Light...), utility magic items should be common (they weren't in 3.5e, where even items with at-will or permanent cantrips went for thousands of gp according to magic item pricing guidelines) and dragonmarks combined with dragonshard focus items were capable of some more impressive feats (but still only comparable to 5th or 6th level spells), but actual wizards, not to say high-level wizards, were extremely rare. There were only 4 casters capable of casting level 9 spells on the continent (one of them a druidic tree, one of them an eleven year old girl cleric who got her powers only in the main cathedral of the Silver Flame, one insane elf transmuter, and one lich. Plus a few demons and dragons, but they don't really count). I think the setting works even better in 5e, where you don't have to build NPCs by character levels, but can use commoner stats and give it some spells, and you can have unlimited use, Prestidigitation-based magic lighter available for just a few dozen gold pieces.

[DizzyWood]

That's pretty much how Eberron works. Low level magic is everywhere (In 5e terms, a lot of people would have Magic Initiate with things like Prestidigitation, Unseen Servant, Light...), utility magic items should be common (they weren't in 3.5e, where even items with at-will or permanent cantrips went for thousands of gp according to magic item pricing guidelines) and dragonmarks combined with dragonshard focus items were capable of some more impressive feats (but still only comparable to 5th or 6th level spells), but actual wizards, not to say high-level wizards, were extremely rare. There were only 4 casters capable of casting level 9 spells on the continent (one of them a druidic tree, one of them an eleven year old girl cleric who got her powers only in the main cathedral of the Silver Flame, one insane elf transmuter, and one lich. Plus a few demons and dragons, but they don't really count). I think the setting works even better in 5e, where you don't have to build NPCs by character levels, but can use commoner stats and give it some spells, and you can have unlimited use, Prestidigitation-based magic lighter available for just a few dozen gold pieces.

Exactlly!! While I am not a huge fan of some parts of Eberron this was basically the best thing ever. I have always felt that magic should be both common AND special. Eberron got that right! Plenty of fun little sparks around but not many torches and very few bonfires to quote my old DM.

To the OP I think we would all like to know what you decide. Also some more background on your setting might help people give better feedback.

[DizzyWood]

Lumos vs. Sectumsempra.

Hehehehe I love a good HP reference. Thank you!

[Laserlight]

One thing that bothered me about 4e was that at times it felt less like "Here's Gok the Barbarian, bold and cunning", and more like "Here's a +3 Vanguard Greatspear, Horned Helm, Iron Armbands, etc etc, oh, and also a halforc to carry them around."

The campaign I'm running has been low magic up till now. The party has found one magic item thus far--a rapier that gives the Dual Wield feat--and the rogue had to make a deal with the devil (or rather, Baron Samedi) to get it.

[DizzyWood]

Something else to think about--

My DM was running a very scarce magic game and it just felt off to all of us but we didn't know why. Then it clicked our group is a Pally, Warlock, Arcane Trickster, Cleric and a Sorcerer... TONS of spells. It just felt weird to not have more magic in the world with this group of casters running around. So as we moved to a new area he added in some more magic items and magical NPCs.

I guess hat I am saying is that if you want to run a low magic setting the party should be encouraged to reflect that or at least have a story reason for it, if you have several casters.

[JoeJ]

I don't think you can usefully describe magic along a single low-to-high dimension. There are at least four independent variables here:

1) How common are casters? Are there just a handful in the world, or does every hamlet have one?

2) How powerful are casters? What percentage of the caster's I'm likely to meet are above level 5? Above level 10? Above level 15?

3) How common are magic items? How many people I meet are likely to have at least one?

4) How powerful are magic items? Is a +0 dagger considered a powerful item?

The first two questions should, of course, be addressed separately for each spellcasting class. Maybe sorcerers are a dime a dozen, but nobody has seen a cleric in decades (or vice versa).

[JellyPooga]

I don't think you can usefully describe magic along a single low-to-high dimension. There are at least four independent variables here:

1) How common are casters? Are there just a handful in the world, or does every hamlet have one?

2) How powerful are casters? What percentage of the caster's I'm likely to meet are above level 5? Above level 10? Above level 15?

3) How common are magic items? How many people I meet are likely to have at least one?

4) How powerful are magic items? Is a +0 dagger considered a powerful item?

The first two questions should, of course, be addressed separately for each spellcasting class. Maybe sorcerers are a dime a dozen, but nobody has seen a cleric in decades (or vice versa).

Further consideration needs to be given to public perceptions of these things, not just their rarity.

A) Are magic items considered dangerous/volatile (akin to firearms in modern day)?

B) Are different types of magic perceived in different ways? Are Warlocks considered foul practitioners of Dark Arts, but Wizards legitimate scholars? Are Druids welcomed in every village, but Clerics shunned as charlatan pretenders of uncaring gods?

C) Is magic (whether the practice of, or items) considered the province of a certain class or caste of people? Is it only for the nobility or a certain bloodline? Only people with red hair are allowed to use it? Anyone with a license can use it legally?

[mephnick]

Also, depending how big your setting is, all those things could change depending on which part of the world you're in. Think of firearms in Canada/America. One little border and the views and accessibility shift dramatically.

[Pex]

High magic does not necessarily mean the party selling its 12th ring of protection. The party will have a good number of magic items, but the high power is more of what they do than how many. +2 or +3 item with or without an extra effect, +1 item with at least two effects, teleportation, resistance, immunity, grant an ability to do something, increase ability score. In the low to mid levels eventually everyone who uses a weapon and/or armor will have them be magical at +1 or +1 and an effect. In addition to magic items is what the party can do and withstand. Warriors do a high number of damage, at least 20. Spellcasters cast high level spells. The party is more powerful than a "typical" party of their level. They can take on a CR + 1 or possibly CR + 2 encounter and not break a sweat, though resources are used. It's not everyone's cup of tea but is not a badwrongfun playstyle. (Not implying anyone here said that.)

Low magic does not necessarily mean no magic items at all whatsoever and in the extremely rare case one exists it has a major drawback you're practically worse off having it than not, to speak in exaggeration. 5E does not forbid magic items. It does not break down into unplayability when the party has a few, even if it's a +1 weapon and armor. However, the number of permanent items is low. Consumables aren't that plenty. Magic effects are low in power, mimicking up to 2nd level spells and mostly cantrip or 1st level. Weapons and armor are +0 with a minor extra effect. Could be "Sting" and just glow when orcs are around and give advantage when attacking orcs but against any other creature it does nothing special yet still counts as a magical weapon. Consumables can do a nice thing, but you won't have two that do the same thing, one for now and one for later. Warrior damage dealing isn't that high, can't break 20. Spellcasters are only casting low level spells and no one spell is "enough". The party can handle CR encounters, but they're not against "fantastical" creatures. "Fantastical" creatures are the BBEG, and it's supposed to be a hard fight, winnable but costly. Often times the party will not have something the opponent is vulnerable to unless they go on a quest just to get it. If it must be a magic item it gets used in that confrontation and not permanently held afterwards. It's not a badwrongfun style either but also not everyone's cup of tea.

[Syll]

Something else to think about--

My DM was running a very scarce magic game and it just felt off to all of us but we didn't know why. Then it clicked our group is a Pally, Warlock, Arcane Trickster, Cleric and a Sorcerer... TONS of spells. It just felt weird to not have more magic in the world with this group of casters running around. So as we moved to a new area he added in some more magic items and magical NPCs.

I guess hat I am saying is that if you want to run a low magic setting the party should be encouraged to reflect that or at least have a story reason for it, if you have several casters.

This is a big reason why I prefer high magic worlds. It's hard to justify 'most people have never seen magic before' against that kind of party composition. Plus there's the frustration of having to deal with the bafflement/bewilderment/torches and pitchforks EVERY time you want to light a hearth without flint, or just not fetch the ladder to get something down.

It also just seems natural to me, that if you could do magic (and it was rare), you would find a way to capitalize on it, in a commercial sense....and it only takes 1 guy figuring out how to create a magic item to plant the knowledge that making magic items IS possible, and others would follow suit. I haven't played in eberron (unfortunately, i think, for what i do know of it) but it seems logical that that is how the market would react, just the same as it does to advances in technology.

[MaxWilson]

Something else to think about--

My DM was running a very scarce magic game and it just felt off to all of us but we didn't know why. Then it clicked our group is a Pally, Warlock, Arcane Trickster, Cleric and a Sorcerer... TONS of spells. It just felt weird to not have more magic in the world with this group of casters running around. So as we moved to a new area he added in some more magic items and magical NPCs.

I guess hat I am saying is that if you want to run a low magic setting the party should be encouraged to reflect that or at least have a story reason for it, if you have several casters.

Magic items are a way of artificially replicating the things that wizards/etc. can do naturally. Was it weird not to have calculators and computers when Euclid was around? The digital revolution has revolutionized the way human beings relate to information/calculation, but it was a long, long road from genius mathematicians to objects which do mathematics for you.

Maybe magic items are thousands of years in the future.

[Syll]

Magic items are a way of artificially replicating the things that wizards/etc. can do naturally. Was it weird not to have calculators and computers when Euclid was around? The digital revolution has revolutionized the way human beings relate to information/calculation, but it was a long, long road from genius mathematicians to objects which do mathematics for you.

Maybe magic items are thousands of years in the future.

In the absence of having a device to do it for you, you would have specialists. If no one has figured out the magic item creation thing, you would instead import a druid to purify the water, or retain a court wizard. I would expect even a small town to have a medicine woman or hedge wizard, etc.

[Grasharm]

In my opinion your asking the wrong people here. If you could go either way there are 3 to 5 people you should be asking as to weather or not THEY want a low or high magic setting. If all but one of them are indifferent and the other despises low magic settings then you have your answer. if it's a mixed bag you should all talk it out and come to a decision as a group.

[Talakeal]

There is a couple of questions that will help narrow down solutions:

1: Are you willing to change the rules of the game to accomplish this?
2: Are you trying to limit the power of magic or the availability of magic?
3: What types of magic are rare? Arcane Spells? Divine Spells? Magic Items? Alchemical items? All of them?
4: What about non magic supernatural abilities? Are supernatural classes and races being limited?


Also, you should talk to your players about it.

In my experience most players will say they like ultra high magic but don't really mean it. Expect them to pitch a fit at the idea of a low magic game, but also realize that they will enjoy it a lot more than they think they do, and they would probably get bored fairly quickly of their all high power all magic all of the time game they think they want.

The tough part is finding the point between your expectations and their expectations that will actually make for the best game.

[DizzyWood]

Magic items are a way of artificially replicating the things that wizards/etc. can do naturally. Was it weird not to have calculators and computers when Euclid was around? The digital revolution has revolutionized the way human beings relate to information/calculation, but it was a long, long road from genius mathematicians to objects which do mathematics for you.

Maybe magic items are thousands of years in the future.

That's not the point at all. I also feel like this is just an attempt to get me to start argument. So I'll just say the players and DM felt a change was needed and we made it.

[LordVonDerp]

I have 99% of my homebrew setting fleshed out except for one thing. The magic level of my world.

... How?? How have you built anything without understanding how the world works?

[MaxWilson]

That's not the point at all. I also feel like this is just an attempt to get me to start argument. So I'll just say the players and DM felt a change was needed and we made it.

Not trying to start an argument. As my .sig says, I respond to stuff that I find interesting. I found the statement you made (especially the part I had bolded) interesting enough to say something about it. That's all.