Arcane Trickster 3 or Rogue 2/Bard 1?

[Captbrannigan]

Hi, new here and I'd appreciate some advice. I just started a silly evil graverobbing duo campaign w/ some friends out of town, with the plan to play them until we could put something else together. To give you an idea how silly, I saw my friend named his Barbarian "Tundar" so I named my rogue "Liht Ning." I figured I could just jump right in with my 3.5 xp - but in retrospect I completely overvalued INT and undervalued backgrounds.

We rolled stats and my luck kicked in with an 8, 11, 11, 12, 14, 14. I chose a half elf charlatan for race and background, with an idea that I'd be a face man with a crooked smile. For rp purposes, I took the 8 in WIS to play off an INT of 14. DEX got my 12 and a +1, with CON taking an 11 and the other +1. CHA took the 14, +2, leaving the 11 for STR. Pretty damn weak, but I wanted to see this "bounded accuracy means you don't need high stats" in play. We started at level 2, and I went straight rogue cause I figured we needed a skill monkey. Oh, I later learned the Barbarian my actor friend made had stats better representative of 4d6-lowest and that Variant Humans are far more powergamey than I expected from him (he played rangers twice, and took any chance he could to ditch spellcasting).

Anyways, Cunning Action seemed kinda cool, but I was honestly just confused to be able to hide and sneak attack every round. I get it now that that's normal, and the dpr is decent but behind other martial classes that don't have to dance around to pull it off. We did fine, killed some skeles and grabbed some loot. Then we lured another party (npcs) into a bear fight, which they helped us kill while it helped us kill them. We went on to seek a local who catered to traveler's, which turned out to be a cannibal and quickly met his end with some thieves cant doubletalk Barbarian sneak attack goodness.

We left off with enough exp for 3rd level; I casually looked at Arcane Trickster and pictured the stupid pink blaster from the DMG and my need for magic took hold. The more I actually get my teeth into the books and forums tho, the weaker AT looks. Especially now that our group is getting a man-hunting Ranger (blarg, why do people think Rangers are cool? grumble), my own dpr does not seem that high of a priority compared to bringing more versatility to the table.


TL/DR:
STR: 11
DEX: 13
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 16

Half-elf Charlatan Rogue 2
Prof: Arcana, Athletics, Deception, Investigation, Perception, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, Stealth.
Expertise: Perception & Thieves Tools

In party w/ a Barbarian and Ranger, evil, dungeon crawlers, not likely to progress past early teens.

Options I see for 3rd level & future build:
1) Assassin. Count on superior firepower and opening tactics to carry us forward.
Pros: Simple, stays in class (ASIs/feats), fits campaign & backstory.
Cons: At least I can run when "hit it in the head" doesn't work, but for reals this seems like a really one dimensional party excessively overly focused on physical damage. Maybe I'm discounting it too early?

2) Arcane Trickster. Shield, Sleep, Disguise Self. Silent Image is worthless against this DM, no sound/heat/Brownian motion pretty well kills most of the suggestions I see. His monsters generally know the floor plan, will attack the "barrel" I'm hiding in, or will ignore images of reinforcements whose armor doesn't rattle or shout and most importantly isn't a better target than the real people in front of me. Even a wall, it just appears out of nowhere with no sound or motion in the air from displacement - why are they not saving against that immediately?
Pros: Mage Hand tomfoolery, stays in class, fits campaign/background, more versatility than assassin
Cons: Spell list and progression are way too limited, makes a better magical pickpocket than a primary utility caster w/ skills.

3) Bard. Keep the Barbarian doing his thing, lockdown tactics. Sleep, Feather Fall, Dissonant Whispers, Healing Word.
Pros: Capitalize on CHA, great spell list providing healing, utility, and CC.
Cons: Behind a full spell level in spell casting, weakest fit for character, not a great fit for campaign, too many proficiencies/overlap w/ Jack of All Trades, pushes ASI back two levels.

4) Wizard. Find Familiar, Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Prot. from Evil/Good, Shield, Sleep.
Pros: SAD, decent fit for character/campaign, most spell versatility w/ arcane recovery & rituals, I don't have to prepare individual slots! Moar cantrips!
Cons: "Thou shalt not lose caster levels" stings more when you're only shtick is casting spells, INT needs more love from me than CHA does for bard, no healing (albeit mundane means are often superior), zero SA synergy.

5) AT to 4th then Bard or Wiz. Compromise weak casting in exchange for ASI mostly. Puts casting even further behind, to the point of not being relevant. Moar cantrips/1st level spells known.

6) Thief
Mage Hand Ledgerdomain = ranged Fast Hands for most applications, otherwise just brings climb buffs to the table (Jump/Ex Retreat anyone?).


Advice? On one hand, this was just a goofy fly by the seat of your pants evil campaign. On the other hand, I'm going to feel responsible when I was in the best position to branch out and shore up weaknesses and I got lazy and leveled ASN.

[McNinja]

You left out sorcerer. That could be a good choice. Honestly, if you're looking at going that way I'd do either Arcane Trickster or Rog2/Sorc1.

[Citan]

Hi OP!

I'd like to get further feedback from you on how your team holds with "normal" stats... :)

Anyways, about your options:
AT is not weak by any means, although the feeble choice of spells means you have to choose carefully. Considering your current stats and need for ASI on DEX, I would forego the "INT-based spells" and only learn defense/utility.
With that said, if you know illusions won't work with your DM, it may not be the best choice.

Wizard is always a nice choice to dip into, and you can get many good spells that don't rely on INT (even Magic Missiles can be useful to you for a while).

Bard though seems the best choice to me for several reasons:
a) CHA based and it's your highest stat.
b) you could go Valor Bard to get shield and medium armor proficiencies at lvl 3, help allies to hit and protect at lvl 3, and Extra Attack (extra chance to SA) at level 6.
c) Vicious Mockery may be one of the best uses of a "offensive" lvl 1 spell in a party that has 2 meleers.
d) You get healing capabilities that are better than Ranger's.
e) Jack of all Trades work on any skill and equipment so you will always find some good thing to work it on...
- Want to Intimidate? Works.
- Found some poison ingredients, would like to try and create a potion with Alchemists tools? Works.
- Want to disguise? Disguise Kit.

Etc etc...

Really thinks that it's one of the dips that brings goodies every level to your build.

With that said, what to decide depends first and foremost on how you envision your character at the end: Rogue-gish? Cunning spellcaster with a dagger to sneak with?

[Captbrannigan]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I hadn't looked at Sorc much, because the way prep casters work now is like being a new Sorc every day. Metamagic is cool and all, but it would be awhile before I have the Sorc pts to use it. I think Bard or Wiz have more to offer me.

Bard is probably my top pick atm. Before the Ranger joined I was eyeing Valor, but as my casting will already be behind and I'm looking to expand my combat options rather than focus on more dpr, I think Lore bard is the way to go. The bonus proficiencies just seem like a waste with Jack of Trades after starting 1/2 elf rogue. Maybe I can convince my dm to let me take some vehicle prof. instead.

Oh, I haven't seen the Ranger's stats yet, but the Barb had 3 16s and his lowest was an 11. My rolls just sucked (which is what I get for not using my own dice).

[miburo]

Do you have access to the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide? The Arcane Trickster gets a solid boost with the new cantrips (esp. Greenflame Blade and Booming Blade). Rapier + Cantrip Damage + Sneak Attack can be quite powerful, and Booming Blade especially offers some fun tactical advantages.

That said, if your DM doesn't really like illusions that much, AT loses a lot of appeal. I wonder if your DM will let you rebuild the character and go for Bard 3 (I'd pick Valor given your party composition).

[Captbrannigan]

Well, me and the DM are on the same page about a lot of things.

I already played and leveled the character up, it's enough that I'm potentially backing out of Rogue 3.

Silent Image has times to shine, but it's not the catch-all some people treat it as. No sound, smell, or sensory effects (heat, light reflection, shadows, etc) are serious limitations, as are enemies that are familiar with their surroundings and start attempting saves in the first round.

Faerun is out, all the worst cheese from 3.5 was there and it's just too excessive and over the top. And it's not that you can't powergame with the core books, but turning to supplements (esp. playtest material) is not going to alleviate his suspicions that I am a rollplayer.

He knows that I love gaming systems, and also the gaming of systems. I do enjoy theorycrafting and finding little ambiguities to wiggle around in or strictly literal readings that let similar forms of the same thing stack (power attack), but I don't want to play those characters. This is our 3rd (or 2nd, one never really got off the ground) time playing together, and he does see that I get into character and flesh out my actions, but anytime I come to him with changes to a build I can see that little smirk on his lips and glint in his eye!

Why do you think Valor bard with a Barbarian and Ranger? I don't know if the Ranger will be a BM or Hunter, and either way he could potentially go melee or ranged. I was leaning towards Valor for a two man group, but with another physical damage and outdoorsy type I feel more pressure to cover other bases.

Lore vs Valor

Skill proficiencies vs medium armor, shields, martial weapons: To cast with a shield I'd need a feat, which I could have at the next level. My dex sucks and med armor could give me a couple pts of AC, looking at you breastplate. Bow/xbows get +1 dmg, but whip for reach is the only finessable martial option. Here's the big kicker though: that also means all three of us are competing for armor. Acrobatics (balance is good), Handle Animal (mount, wagon, dog pack abuse), Religion (could be useful in crypts, ID monsters), Medicine (bleh), Performance (make money in offtime, who cares with no magic mart?*), Intimidation/Nature/Survival - barb and ranger got that. I'll probably grab Insight with Bard 1.

Cutting Words vs Combat Inspiration: BI vs most attacks or BI to dmg or AC? Cutting Words seems like the winner here, as you could apply it against an attack roll to net the same "AC" benefit. Also I can use it reactively instead of having to have already given BI to that character.

Magical Secrets vs Extra Attack: Extra chance to SA + hit damage vs Counterspell, Haste, Fly, or Revivify. Aura of Vitality has it's uses, but I'd rather burn 1st level or Ranger slots on healing.


Anyways, if I want dpr why not stay any kind of Rogue and have 3d6 more SA, one more ASI, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, +subclass (AT would have 3 less spells known, 1 less cantrip, from a worse list of up to 2nd instead of 3rd level, and 4 fewer total slots)? Rogue would also be one level away from the next subclass feature.

*Yes, I have read the relevant thread about Performance and while luxury contacts could provide some hefty leverage, I'd rather spot someone conning me back, not slip, and know how to kill a ghost.

[Talamare]

Rogue, MC Lore Bard is basically one of the best combination for Skill Monkey in the game

Only need Knowledge Cleric MC as well to finish it off

[Citan]

Well, me and the DM are on the same page about a lot of things.

I already played and leveled the character up, it's enough that I'm potentially backing out of Rogue 3.

Silent Image has times to shine, but it's not the catch-all some people treat it as. No sound, smell, or sensory effects (heat, light reflection, shadows, etc) are serious limitations, as are enemies that are familiar with their surroundings and start attempting saves in the first round.

Why do you think Valor bard with a Barbarian and Ranger? I don't know if the Ranger will be a BM or Hunter, and either way he could potentially go melee or ranged. I was leaning towards Valor for a two man group, but with another physical damage and outdoorsy type I feel more pressure to cover other bases.

Well, I suggested Valor Bard because it seemed to me that you wanted to create a gish, balanced character that would contribute to damage from melee or range while keeping spellcasting to answer occasional needs (heal, small buff/debuff, etc).

Hence Combat Inspiration being suggested because helping your friends, which will still be better weapon damage dealers than you, and more often in melee. Although you got a point on "reaction cost" at low levels (remember than Rogue 5 gets Uncanny Dodge though).
Also coming with Valor, Extra attack being an excellent way to help making Sneak Attack reliable and increase a bit your damage.

As for the other points...
Shield wielding is a false problem if you go melee. You can (un)sheathe a one-hand weapon as a free interaction, you would use your bonus action mainly with Cunning Action for several levels, so you can either cast a spell OR attack every round. Meaning that with free interaction you can switch every turn at no cost.
Not sure about hand crossbow though (because of reloading).
But you could also keep your shield on your back most of the time and wield it only when necessary. :)

Same with "competing for armor". You should all have gold enough to buy a decent armor at the same time, unless I didn't understand what you meant. And especially with your low DEX it could net you +2 AC (preserve Stealth) or +3 (Stealth disadvantage). Which, I think we all agree on this, is not small. :)

Hence also my question at the end of the post.
For a Rogue / Bard balanced multiclass (11/9, 10/10, 12/8) with emphasis on weapon damage, Valor Bard brings much more than Lore.
For a Rogue main / Bard strong dip (max 6), both are equally good options (basically Magic Secrets or Extra Attack, with Lore being obviously better for an AT).
For a Rogue strong dip / Bard main, Valor Bard is good because martial synergies but Lore is good also (benefit from Cunning Action and Uncanny Dodge and you can poach spells such as Swift Quiver later if you want to go weapon).
For a Rogue small dip / Bard main, Lore Bard is better (your weapon damage will become useless with levels, so Extra Attack won't help, and you get a nice use for your reaction when not engaged).

It seems in fact you want to actually be a spellcaster as main, using only movement and skill related Rogue features. Then, sure, go Lore Bard and enjoy Cutting Words and Magical Secrets. :)

[Captbrannigan]

Sorry for the confusion, I think it's cause I'm really torn as to my place in the group. As a duo I felt like I would end up in melee a lot, so I figured Valor would be a way to gain better melee and spellcasting than AT. With another DPR character in the party, I think I could manage the breathing room to focus on battlefield control and buffing/debuffing. Two people can make an all out assault work, the DM is more forgiving and the group size is manageable. Party of three can be expected to need more advanced tactics.

As for competing for armor.. since there's no magic mart to spend our gold on, the only magic breastplate around is one we find and everyone's gonna want it. I hate the "no magic mart" assumption of 5e. Restricting access to magical items empowers characters with built in magic. Here's a good rule of thumb for fantasy settings; if technology/magic/mcguffin exists that freely breaks the rules of our world, it is by definition more powerful than things restricted by the rules. Either get it directly, or find ways to carry it around. A character than can cast magic weapon has more options than a character with a +1 mace, and both of them are better off than the guy with the plain mace. Once you start adding flying, teleportation, SoD/L, polymorph, conjuring walls/fogs... lacking that while your enemy has it (and likely terrain advantage already) is not going to be pretty.

Sorry for the rant, I just have a problem with a setting that has some 30+ core subclasses, only 6 of which don't have literally magical abilities, but the only magically enhanced items are locked away relics. By the way, what are we supposed to do with a magic item we don't want or outgrow? It's just stupid to think commerce wouldn't mix with magic. Magic exists in D&D, it's either like Faerun or Eberron and either way, magic pervades the entire setting. I know I don't like FR, but I see that it is true to the physics and economy of D&D.

[Citan]

Sorry for the confusion, I think it's cause I'm really torn as to my place in the group. As a duo I felt like I would end up in melee a lot, so I figured Valor would be a way to gain better melee and spellcasting than AT. With another DPR character in the party, I think I could manage the breathing room to focus on battlefield control and buffing/debuffing. Two people can make an all out assault work, the DM is more forgiving and the group size is manageable. Party of three can be expected to need more advanced tactics.

As for competing for armor.. since there's no magic mart to spend our gold on, the only magic breastplate around is one we find and everyone's gonna want it. I hate the "no magic mart" assumption of 5e.

Sorry for the rant, I just have a problem with a setting that has some 30+ core subclasses, only 6 of which don't have literally magical abilities, but the only magically enhanced items are locked away relics.
Hey, no problem, it's good to let some things off the chest sometimes.

With that said, I admit I cannot emphatize with you there.
First, a competent DM should avoid such a problem from arising, either by making a way for all team to get magic armor (one quest leads you to cross the path of a "magic" blacksmith or you loot a place owned by heavily magic-oriented people) or by giving each of you an item that enhances one's primary role, thus avoiding direct competition for loot.

Second, since you plan on being more a spellcaster than a meleer, and since you're a DEX-based Rogue, you basically have no need to stay in front-line. So having a good armor is necessary. Having a magical armor is not.
Or, said otherwise, and bluntly, if you fail yourself and get in a pinch, a +1 armor won't make a difference.

Third, unless it's a RP thing (team of people with opposite alignments for example), if your team is not able to concert over a piece of loot, I'm a bit worried about teamwork in dire situations, frankly. ^^

Fourth, the only piece of equipment really necessary, and not even for everyone, is magical weapon to bypass physical immunities. Beyond that, never having more than +1 weapon should not be a problem, 5e is designed to be doable with very few magic items (unless I'm mistaken, I'll let experienced grounders correct me if necessary ;)).

Five, if you're bothered with "magic tool recycling", you could just speak with your DM to find a way to upgrade them through a quest (confer idea of secret blacksmith, or a magical wish fountain "a la Zelda", etc).

Enjoy :)

[Captbrannigan]

Thanks for the advice guys. I went ahead with Rogue 2/Bard 1. BI helped a couple times already, and I tried to make use of Cunning Action when appropriate. The Ranger is a variant human Hunter, going archery.

We had a mostly non-combat session, with one big fight against 4 drow and 2 dwarves and a smaller mop up against 2 drow and 3 wood elves we pitted against each other. I failed to recognize elves have sleep immunity, despite being half elf myself, so that was a wasted spell despite rolling decently on my 5d8 (31 vs avg 23). My second slot went to a Dissonant Whisper that one of the dwarves tied the dc on. At least my minor illusion of approaching reinforcements distracted two of them and the other guys were holding their own despite a couple rounds of paralysis.

As I said, we spent most of the time negotiating terms for the mission and infiltrating the wood elf village. Not super meaty, but we had fun and got a chance to flesh out characters out.

TL/DR:
Rogue 2/Bard 1
Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Vicious Mockery
1st level: Dissonant Whisper, Feather Fall, Healing Word, Sleep.

For now looking at Lore Bard when I get there, probably Counterspell and Haste for Magical Secrets.