bekeleven
2016-02-09, 04:55 AM
Hey there, expert. You know Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm). You've read the MoMF Bible (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472737-Updated-Master-of-Many-Forms-Bible-official-wild-shape-rules-%28recovered%29). You know your way around wild shape, is what I'm saying.
But what about..?
Wild shape is one of the most complicated abilities in the game. It finds some way to interact with nearly every other ability in the game, especially when taking the Master of Many Forms prestige class or similar tricks (Enhance Wild Shape, other prestige classes, substitution levels, various feats). This thread assumes you've read "Official Wild Shape Rules" in the MoMF Bible.
I've taken the time to compile a FAQ on "Common" edge cases and weird interactions. Feel free to ask more questions below. In places where the rules as written are ambiguous or bad, which is honestly most of these, I'll suggest houserules in green. Houserules are not inherently bad. Sometimes the rules don't work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5). Sometimes the rules leave holes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240218-quot-Common-Sense-quot-approach-to-rules-%28RACSD%29&p=13092074#post13092074post13092074). Sometimes the rules are rules for favored classes.
Q: How does Wild Shape interact with ability damage and ability drain?
A: I've put my top men (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?324773-Druid-Wildshape-Question) on it, and we've decided that... it's weird. Basically, ability damage and drain you sustain does not carry into any wild shape you initiate, because your stats are explicitly replaced wholesale. (Ability penalties do, because those are continuous effects.) When leaving a wild shape, the rules are a bit more ambiguous.
Ability damage and drain should work like penalties both when entering and leaving wild shape. Doing so otherwise is an unfair boost to wild shape, which is already a powerful ability.
Q: How do I wild shape into a race with no appropriate stat block? (Ex. Humanoid Wild Shape, MoMF 1)
A: Nowhere in the rules as written is there an adequate explanation of this. I'll explain it here as it makes sense. I'll use two examples: elves and humans. Extrapolate them to other races as needed. This entire section is sort of houserules, but I think it follows naturally from the text.
When Janan wants to wild shape into an Elf, he first has to reverse engineer the elf's stat block. The elf has 1 hit die in humanoid (this is what is replaced when an elf takes its first level in a class). It's possible to argue that an elf's natural state has 1/2 a HD or less, but there's no real reason to do so, and (more importantly) no real difference for the purposes of wild shaping into one.
To wild shape into an elf, Janan needs to know its size, physical ability scores, its Extraordinary Special Attacks, possibly Extraordinary Special Qualities, natural armor, movement modes, and physical appearance. Most of these are apparent from just reading the elf stat block. An elf is medium, has low-light vision, weapon proficiency bonus feats, skill bonuses, secret door awareness, immunity or save bonuses to some magic, and a 30ft base land speed. We're mostly missing the ability scores.
Monsters without class levels are always presented with all 10s and 11s in ability scores unless they specify otherwise. Therefore, the elf form taken will have a strength of 10-11, a dexterity of 12-13, and a constitution of 8-9. Which one? You can decide using an arbitrary method of your choice - perhaps which ones are odd in the Elf Warrior stat block - or you can just make them all even or all odd. It's a minor benefit for things like odd inherent bonuses or ability damage/drain (see above), but not really major enough to worry about.
I'll also mention humans. A human has all 10s and 11s in all ability scores. Humans gain a feat, which is extraordinary, but the feat is explicitly taken at level 1 so you don't get the chance to select it (unless your DM is letting you start level 1 as a MoMF; see Divine Minion, below). Humans also gain extra skill points at selected levels, but do not gain racial skill bonuses, and so you don't actually gain any benefit from those skill points because you can't spend them. (Even if you get the skill points, they can be spent only on level up; see below on wild shaping while leveling).
Oh, the bonus feat situation is even weirder. Some bonus feats are special attacks, but it's generally accepted that the feat itself is a special quality that grants the attack. Furthermore, the human racial quality is a special quality that grants the special quality that... well, you get the point. Oh, and some feats are supernatural, but only a few, so no taking [Exalted] or [Vile].
Q: What languages do I learn when I wild shape? Does my favored class change in any way? Do I get type-based proficiencies?
A: Well, I think we can agree that none of these are supernatural, and none are special special attacks. They’re either extraordinary special qualities, or natural abilities of some sort. It might seem obvious that these are all natural, but remember that it can be considered extraordinary to grab stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab), squeeze stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict), have venom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison), swallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#swallowWhole), or smell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent). So by that token, stuff like languages and proficiencies aren’t so cut and dried.
Well, let’s start with favored class. Technically speaking, you can spend human bonus skill points gained from a wild shape.... if you level up while wild shaped into human form. By the same token, if your DM rewards experience immediately after combat, you will still be in your foreign form with potentially an additional favored class. I have a tiered system to help clarify this interaction:
Under no circumstances should wild shape interact with the level-up process. Seriously, it’s opening a huge can of worms and there’s almost no good that can come out of it.
The good that can come out of it comes from feat qualifications. Basically, you can learn any feat you qualify for, and you can use any feat that you both know and qualify for. Meaning that if you have 8 strength and you need power attack for punching people as a cave troll, you have to be in cave troll form while leveling to be able to learn it. Just let people take it anyway and use it when they qualify. Life is much easier when you don’t have to worry about the exact timing of your levels. Not only does that add a new layer of minmaxing, but it’s required metagaming as well.
Don’t use favored class bonuses.
Next let’s look at weapon proficiencies. Druids proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm). This covers most common cases, but the rest I’ll discuss with everything else:
For the rest of those items... Let’s look at the first creature in the Monster Manual, the Aboleth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm). It lists languages under its stat block and doesn’t list proficiencies at all, except in the fact that its attacks are 4 higher than they’d be without them. These are both normal and are the standard ways to represent type abilities. There is a second way you see sometimes, such as with animated objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm), where they list “Construct traits” as a catch-all.
All special abilities are Ex, Su or Sp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#specialAbilities). Since your average animated object doesn’t get -4 to attacks in an antimagic field, type-based proficiencies for an animated object are extraordinary. Some entries, like Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm), explicitly list traits as being Extraordinary. I’ll make the wacky claim that we can generalize this. I know the aboleth doesn’t list its proficiencies as a special quality, but (a) nothing says that only Special attacks and Special Qualities are Ex, and (b) you get natural weapon proficiencies anyway so it’s almost always moot.
This catch-all does not include languages, which are not in type or subtype descriptions, nor are they listed as abilities. I am of the opinion that rules, like common sense, state that wild shape does not grant new languages.
To sum up: Proficiencies are Ex Sq. Languages are not a special ability and not explicitly granted. Don’t make the mistake of monkeying around with XP, but if you do, the reading is somewhat unclear.
Q: How do I handle wild shaping into animated objects?
A: As written, there are a small handful of ways to wild shape into an animated object, such as via the Cityscape substitution level (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) or the 3.0 Shifter class. The sub level description is pretty explicit about needing limits: “Talk to your DM in advance to determine what sorts of forms are available and what are off-limits.” That said, it still leaves some question unanswered. Namely: Can I turn into a 50-karat diamond, a perfectly painted statue of the king, or a picasso? Are they forms you are “familiar” with?
For DMs looking for guidance, here’s my recommendation: Use a craft check to determine the quality of any complex object (such as anything with moving parts or with a craft DC of over 20).
Q: How does Living Spell work, anyway?
A: This here is a doozy.
To sum up:
Living spell is a template that you can apply to a spell to make that spell a creature.
“A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.” (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm)
My view is that a living spell is a spell with a template that just so happens to be a creature; at no point was there a template applied to a creature. The view of Eggynack (and others) is that the living spell is a creature, and there’s a template “on” that creature, and that’s that. We’ve discussed it at length (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412080-Living-Spell-Wild-Shape). My opinion: As a wild shape expert, this is totally allowed.
DMs, don’t allow this.
Q: Say, Split (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#ochreJelly) is an extraordinary special quality.
A: Yeah. Save money on the clone spell, because this is totally legal.
DMs, don’t in a million years allow this. Unless the druid is named "pickle inspector."
Q: Does Mulhorandi Divine Minion quality for Master of Many Forms?
A: Sure, if he's a 5th level druid or wild shape ranger.
Master of Many Forms requires Special: Wild shape class feature. Muharandi Divine Minion grants no class feature (it's a racial ability) and has no abilities called wild shape (it's called "Fast Wild Shape.") 0/2 will not order again.
But what about..?
Wild shape is one of the most complicated abilities in the game. It finds some way to interact with nearly every other ability in the game, especially when taking the Master of Many Forms prestige class or similar tricks (Enhance Wild Shape, other prestige classes, substitution levels, various feats). This thread assumes you've read "Official Wild Shape Rules" in the MoMF Bible.
I've taken the time to compile a FAQ on "Common" edge cases and weird interactions. Feel free to ask more questions below. In places where the rules as written are ambiguous or bad, which is honestly most of these, I'll suggest houserules in green. Houserules are not inherently bad. Sometimes the rules don't work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5). Sometimes the rules leave holes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240218-quot-Common-Sense-quot-approach-to-rules-%28RACSD%29&p=13092074#post13092074post13092074). Sometimes the rules are rules for favored classes.
Q: How does Wild Shape interact with ability damage and ability drain?
A: I've put my top men (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?324773-Druid-Wildshape-Question) on it, and we've decided that... it's weird. Basically, ability damage and drain you sustain does not carry into any wild shape you initiate, because your stats are explicitly replaced wholesale. (Ability penalties do, because those are continuous effects.) When leaving a wild shape, the rules are a bit more ambiguous.
Ability damage and drain should work like penalties both when entering and leaving wild shape. Doing so otherwise is an unfair boost to wild shape, which is already a powerful ability.
Q: How do I wild shape into a race with no appropriate stat block? (Ex. Humanoid Wild Shape, MoMF 1)
A: Nowhere in the rules as written is there an adequate explanation of this. I'll explain it here as it makes sense. I'll use two examples: elves and humans. Extrapolate them to other races as needed. This entire section is sort of houserules, but I think it follows naturally from the text.
When Janan wants to wild shape into an Elf, he first has to reverse engineer the elf's stat block. The elf has 1 hit die in humanoid (this is what is replaced when an elf takes its first level in a class). It's possible to argue that an elf's natural state has 1/2 a HD or less, but there's no real reason to do so, and (more importantly) no real difference for the purposes of wild shaping into one.
To wild shape into an elf, Janan needs to know its size, physical ability scores, its Extraordinary Special Attacks, possibly Extraordinary Special Qualities, natural armor, movement modes, and physical appearance. Most of these are apparent from just reading the elf stat block. An elf is medium, has low-light vision, weapon proficiency bonus feats, skill bonuses, secret door awareness, immunity or save bonuses to some magic, and a 30ft base land speed. We're mostly missing the ability scores.
Monsters without class levels are always presented with all 10s and 11s in ability scores unless they specify otherwise. Therefore, the elf form taken will have a strength of 10-11, a dexterity of 12-13, and a constitution of 8-9. Which one? You can decide using an arbitrary method of your choice - perhaps which ones are odd in the Elf Warrior stat block - or you can just make them all even or all odd. It's a minor benefit for things like odd inherent bonuses or ability damage/drain (see above), but not really major enough to worry about.
I'll also mention humans. A human has all 10s and 11s in all ability scores. Humans gain a feat, which is extraordinary, but the feat is explicitly taken at level 1 so you don't get the chance to select it (unless your DM is letting you start level 1 as a MoMF; see Divine Minion, below). Humans also gain extra skill points at selected levels, but do not gain racial skill bonuses, and so you don't actually gain any benefit from those skill points because you can't spend them. (Even if you get the skill points, they can be spent only on level up; see below on wild shaping while leveling).
Oh, the bonus feat situation is even weirder. Some bonus feats are special attacks, but it's generally accepted that the feat itself is a special quality that grants the attack. Furthermore, the human racial quality is a special quality that grants the special quality that... well, you get the point. Oh, and some feats are supernatural, but only a few, so no taking [Exalted] or [Vile].
Q: What languages do I learn when I wild shape? Does my favored class change in any way? Do I get type-based proficiencies?
A: Well, I think we can agree that none of these are supernatural, and none are special special attacks. They’re either extraordinary special qualities, or natural abilities of some sort. It might seem obvious that these are all natural, but remember that it can be considered extraordinary to grab stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab), squeeze stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict), have venom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#poison), swallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#swallowWhole), or smell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent). So by that token, stuff like languages and proficiencies aren’t so cut and dried.
Well, let’s start with favored class. Technically speaking, you can spend human bonus skill points gained from a wild shape.... if you level up while wild shaped into human form. By the same token, if your DM rewards experience immediately after combat, you will still be in your foreign form with potentially an additional favored class. I have a tiered system to help clarify this interaction:
Under no circumstances should wild shape interact with the level-up process. Seriously, it’s opening a huge can of worms and there’s almost no good that can come out of it.
The good that can come out of it comes from feat qualifications. Basically, you can learn any feat you qualify for, and you can use any feat that you both know and qualify for. Meaning that if you have 8 strength and you need power attack for punching people as a cave troll, you have to be in cave troll form while leveling to be able to learn it. Just let people take it anyway and use it when they qualify. Life is much easier when you don’t have to worry about the exact timing of your levels. Not only does that add a new layer of minmaxing, but it’s required metagaming as well.
Don’t use favored class bonuses.
Next let’s look at weapon proficiencies. Druids proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm). This covers most common cases, but the rest I’ll discuss with everything else:
For the rest of those items... Let’s look at the first creature in the Monster Manual, the Aboleth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm). It lists languages under its stat block and doesn’t list proficiencies at all, except in the fact that its attacks are 4 higher than they’d be without them. These are both normal and are the standard ways to represent type abilities. There is a second way you see sometimes, such as with animated objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm), where they list “Construct traits” as a catch-all.
All special abilities are Ex, Su or Sp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#specialAbilities). Since your average animated object doesn’t get -4 to attacks in an antimagic field, type-based proficiencies for an animated object are extraordinary. Some entries, like Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm), explicitly list traits as being Extraordinary. I’ll make the wacky claim that we can generalize this. I know the aboleth doesn’t list its proficiencies as a special quality, but (a) nothing says that only Special attacks and Special Qualities are Ex, and (b) you get natural weapon proficiencies anyway so it’s almost always moot.
This catch-all does not include languages, which are not in type or subtype descriptions, nor are they listed as abilities. I am of the opinion that rules, like common sense, state that wild shape does not grant new languages.
To sum up: Proficiencies are Ex Sq. Languages are not a special ability and not explicitly granted. Don’t make the mistake of monkeying around with XP, but if you do, the reading is somewhat unclear.
Q: How do I handle wild shaping into animated objects?
A: As written, there are a small handful of ways to wild shape into an animated object, such as via the Cityscape substitution level (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) or the 3.0 Shifter class. The sub level description is pretty explicit about needing limits: “Talk to your DM in advance to determine what sorts of forms are available and what are off-limits.” That said, it still leaves some question unanswered. Namely: Can I turn into a 50-karat diamond, a perfectly painted statue of the king, or a picasso? Are they forms you are “familiar” with?
For DMs looking for guidance, here’s my recommendation: Use a craft check to determine the quality of any complex object (such as anything with moving parts or with a craft DC of over 20).
Q: How does Living Spell work, anyway?
A: This here is a doozy.
To sum up:
Living spell is a template that you can apply to a spell to make that spell a creature.
“A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.” (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm)
My view is that a living spell is a spell with a template that just so happens to be a creature; at no point was there a template applied to a creature. The view of Eggynack (and others) is that the living spell is a creature, and there’s a template “on” that creature, and that’s that. We’ve discussed it at length (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412080-Living-Spell-Wild-Shape). My opinion: As a wild shape expert, this is totally allowed.
DMs, don’t allow this.
Q: Say, Split (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#ochreJelly) is an extraordinary special quality.
A: Yeah. Save money on the clone spell, because this is totally legal.
DMs, don’t in a million years allow this. Unless the druid is named "pickle inspector."
Q: Does Mulhorandi Divine Minion quality for Master of Many Forms?
A: Sure, if he's a 5th level druid or wild shape ranger.
Master of Many Forms requires Special: Wild shape class feature. Muharandi Divine Minion grants no class feature (it's a racial ability) and has no abilities called wild shape (it's called "Fast Wild Shape.") 0/2 will not order again.