multiclassing open hand Monk/hunter ranger. Viable or just wishful thinking?

[BladeWing81]

many Monk guides I've read say that ranger is a bad multiclass option but what about all of the goodies the Monk gets with a first lvl ranger multiclass.

first off you get dueling fighting style which gives +2 damage to your quarterstaff attacks.
You get the hunters Mark spell which adds an additional 1d6 of damage for every weapon attack (it requires a weapon attack not a weapon so unarmed strikes count).

At lvl 6, Monk 5/ranger 1 using 1 ki point a creature with hunters mark will get 4d6 + 4 dueling + 2*dex from the first 2 attacks with a quarter staff then 4d6 + 2*dex from the last two unarmed strikes. if you continue with this trend up to lvl 3 ranger and get the hunter archetype you also get:

-Colossus slayer: adding 1d8 damage to an attack when you attack a damaged enemy (with 3 to 4 attacks each turn that's an easy thing to do)

-Giant killer: you get a reaction attack on a large creature when it attacks you (not very good)

-Horde Breaker: you get an additional attack on a secondary target giving the monk up to 5 attacks per turn if you have ki points available.

the best subclass for this would be open hand monk to make a lot of melee attacks and adding some more tricks on the last two attacks, either pushing 15ft, knocking prone or stopping reaction attacks.

Finally, if you're worried about losing the hunters mark you can become a V-Human and get Mobile feat and avoid attacks almost completely.

am I interpreting something wrong? because I see nothing but good from this multiclass option.

Edit: I just realize that spellcasting and fighting style come into play until ranger lvl 2 so it would actally be Monk 5/ranger 2 to get most of the options I talk about if you're willing to make the grind up to lvl 7 with this option it's still might be a good option for boosting up the Monk damage.


Edit 2: A second option has emerged, Sun soul Monk is a great option in survivability is it possible to boost his radiant sun bolts instead with something similar to hex without going MAD? I think the war Monk has divine favor but that only adds a 1d4 to each attack and only last 10 minutes.

[Sir cryosin]

Most people think ranger is a trash class but it's not. And mc the way u had stated could up your damage.

[Talamare]

As far as Hunter's Mark is concerned, you will only be able to cast it like... 2~3x a day? Which isn't the worst since they last all battle (assuming you don't take any damage)
As well as you get some minor heals, which is always nice if someone more important drops (like the main healer) but you kinda of can just replace this effect with a 50g Healing Potion

Colossus Slayer is nice tho, as its basically free damage as many times a day as you want... but then why not go Rogue for Sneak attacks? 3rd level Rogue has a 2d6 Sneak attack. Way better than 1d8. Not to mention they get expertise and a free murder crit if you have decent dex.

Fighter is nice too, they also get the Fighting Style. Action Surge and Second Wind for offensive and defensive boosts. If you go Champion you can start Crit-Fishing as a Monk, or if you go Battle Master you learn some really appropriately thematic attacks. Bearbarian is ridiculous too, able to shrug off broken amounts of damage.

Actually, now that I think of it. None of what I said matters, what matters is what you think is cool and powerful. If that's Ranger, then Ranger is the best option for you to play.

[Shining Wrath]

There's certainly ability score synergy, as both monks and rangers like Dexterity and Wisdom.
Hunter's Mark is a nice spell, but it won't scale.

So - short campaign, might work. Long campaign, probably not worth giving up the monk capstone to get.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

many Monk guides I've read say that ranger is a bad multiclass option but what about all of the goodies the Monk gets with a first lvl ranger multiclass.

first off you get dueling fighting style which gives +2 damage to your quarterstaff attacks.
Fighting style comes at level 2, and normally you'd be using the staff 2 handed, so it's really only +1 damage.


You get the hunters Mark spell which adds an additional 1d6 of damage for every weapon attack (it requires a weapon attack not a weapon so unarmed strikes count).
Spellcasting comes at level 2. While having a few spells is rather useful, you only get two a day. Given that it eats your bonus action the round you do it, and it's a concentration spell on a melee class without a CON save, you'll have a hard time landing more than a few hits with it.


At lvl 6, Monk 5/ranger 1 using 1 ki point a creature with hunters mark will get 4d6 + 4 dueling + 2*dex from the first 2 attacks with a quarter staff then 4d6 + 2*dex from the last two unarmed strikes
Doesn't work, since many of the features you're referring to come at level 2. Given another level, then yes it works, but with just straight lvl 8 monk you'd do only slightly less raw damage, have an extra ASI (increasing DEX, or gaining a feat, compensating for the lost damage), 2 more ki, and Evasion.


-Colossus slayer: adding 1d8 damage to an attack when you attack a damaged enemy (with 3 to 4 attacks each turn that's an easy thing to do)

-Giant killer: you get a reaction attack on a large creature when it attacks you (not very good)

-Horde Breaker: you get an additional attack on a secondary target giving the monk up to 5 attacks per turn if you have ki points available.

the best subclass for this would be open hand monk to make a lot of melee attacks and adding some more tricks on the last two attacks, either pushing 15ft, knocking prone or stopping reaction attacks.

Finally, if you're worried about losing the hunters mark you can become a V-Human and get Mobile feat and avoid attacks almost completely.

This is fine, it's the trade-offs for multiclassing. I'll just note that you'll be losing out or at the least delaying access to important Monk features, like extra Ki, larger martial arts die, evasion, proficiency in all saves, self-healing, etc.

[BladeWing81]

As far as Hunter's Mark is concerned, you will only be able to cast it like... 2~3x a day? Which isn't the worst since they last all battle (assuming you don't take any damage)
As well as you get some minor heals, which is always nice if someone more important drops (like the main healer) but you kinda of can just replace this effect with a 50g Healing Potion

Colossus Slayer is nice tho, as its basically free damage as many times a day as you want... but then why not go Rogue for Sneak attacks? 3rd level Rogue has a 2d6 Sneak attack. Way better than 1d8. Not to mention they get expertise and a free murder crit if you have decent dex.

Fighter is nice too, they also get the Fighting Style. Action Surge and Second Wind for offensive and defensive boosts. If you go Champion you can start Crit-Fishing as a Monk, or if you go Battle Master you learn some really appropriately thematic attacks. Bearbarian is ridiculous too, able to shrug off broken amounts of damage.

Actually, now that I think of it. None of what I said matters, what matters is what you think is cool and powerful. If that's Ranger, then Ranger is the best option for you to play.

I do agree with the fighter and rogue multiclass option that might be better for the Monk.

Fighter might be a problem since it needs 13 Str to multiclass,

Rogue on the other hand has great synergy with Monk with expertise but it also uses a lot of the bonus actions to do cunning action to avoid damage, assassin might give autocrit once per battle and the 2d6 from sneak attack is only once per turn I see assassin rogue more for a Shadow monk.
Ranger on the other hand gives +4+2d6 for just the first two attacks (I just checked and fighting style is at lvl 2, my bad) then you add the third and fourth attack with ki for up to an additional +2d6. Depending on the dice rolls you are doing probably way more damage per attack during the whole fight compared to rogue and since hunters mark last up to an hour you can use it during multiple fights and get way more damage in the long run.

[BladeWing81]

Fighting style comes at level 2, and normally you'd be using the staff 2 handed, so it's really only +1 damage.


Spellcasting comes at level 2. While having a few spells is rather useful, you only get two a day. Given that it eats your bonus action the round you do it, and it's a concentration spell on a melee class without a CON save, you'll have a hard time landing more than a few hits with it.


Doesn't work, since many of the features you're referring to come at level 2. Given another level, then yes it works, but with just straight lvl 8 monk you'd do only slightly less raw damage, have an extra ASI (increasing DEX, or gaining a feat, compensating for the lost damage), 2 more ki, and Evasion.



This is fine, it's the trade-offs for multiclassing. I'll just note that you'll be losing out or at the least delaying access to important Monk features, like extra Ki, larger martial arts die, evasion, proficiency in all saves, self-healing, etc.

You're right, most of the best parts come until lvl 2 ranger making you miss out on the best Monk features. which makes this multiclassing only viable after at least lvl 12 when you get ASI and martial art d8 attacks but you still delay the all saves proeficiency, I could be argued that that happens with any multiclassing array on any class though.

[Talamare]

I do agree with the fighter and rogue multiclass option that might be better for the Monk.

Fighter might be a problem since it needs 13 Str to multiclass,

Rogue on the other hand has great synergy with Monk with expertise but it also uses a lot of the bonus actions to do cunning action to avoid damage, assassin might give autocrit once per battle and the 2d6 from sneak attack is only once per turn I see assassin rogue more for a Shadow monk.
Ranger on the other hand gives +4+2d6 for just the first two attacks (I just checked and fighting style is at lvl 2, my bad) then you add the third and fourth attack with ki for up to an additional +2d6. Depending on the dice rolls you are doing probably way more damage per attack during the whole fight compared to rogue and since hunters mark last up to an hour you can use it during multiple fights and get way more damage in the long run.
(note, everything said will assume you hit with all attacks) (and that you're level 5, 3/2 vs Pure)
Hunter's Mark is concentration tho
So you spend 2 attacks casting it (since you can't Flurry of Blows that turn), then on the enemies turn you get hit and lose it
You managed to deal an additional 1d6 (and saved yourself a ki point), but you spent a spell slot of which you only get 2 of. Tho since you only have 1 attack, you only did 2+2d6+DEX (9+DEX) damage
A pure monk spent a ki point but he has 2 more ki points, so it's okay. He made 4 attacks, for 4d6+4*DEX (14+4*DEX) damage. As well as knocked the guy down.
Edit - Rogue version (3R/2M), Turn 1 2d4+3d6+3*DEX (15.5+2*DEX)

Okay, let's assume now tho that You didn't get hit and Hunter's Mark is still on your target, time for the big burst now!
You make your 1 attack, and Flurry for 2 more hits. 2d4+4d6+3*DEX
He does his same attack, 4d6+4*DEX

Total damage?
You - 4+2d4+6d6+4*DEX (30+4*DEX)
Him - 8d6+8*DEX (28+8*DEX)
Rogue - 4d4+6d6+6*DEX (31+6*DEX)

Screw that tho, Lets have another turn! My damage is amped up now after all!
You 6+4d4+10d6+7*DEX (51+7*DEX)
Him - 12d6+12*DEX (42+12*DEX)
Rogue - 5d4+9d6+8*DEX (44+8*DEX) [Ran out of Ki]

Okay, he's only slightly only 5x DEX ahead, but you're right on his tail! Let's go one more rou... Oh, you're out of Ki Points? Well you can still bonus action 1 more attack punch but... He's using Flurry, so you're going to fall behind again

Not to mention, if that first enemy died. You need to spend of those Bonus Action attacks to move your Hunter's Mark onto the new guy while he just walks over and starts punching.
Edit - Fixed the numbers to include Q-Staff/Shortsword

[BladeWing81]

(note, everything said will assume you hit with all attacks) (and that you're level 5, 3/2 vs Pure)
Hunter's Mark is concentration tho
So you spend 2 attacks casting it (since you can't Flurry of Blows that turn), then on the enemies turn you get hit and lose it
You managed to deal an additional 1d6 (and saved yourself a ki point), but you spent a spell slot of which you only get 2 of. Tho since you only have 1 attack, you only did 2+1d4+1d6+DEX (8+DEX) damage
A pure monk spent a ki point but he has 2 more ki points, so it's okay. He made 4 attacks, for 4d6+4*DEX (14+4*DEX) damage. As well as knocked the guy down.
Edit - Rogue version (3R/2M), Turn 1 3d4+2d6+3*DEX (14.5+2*DEX)

Okay, let's assume now tho that You didn't get hit and Hunter's Mark is still on your target, time for the big burst now!
You make your 1 attack, and Flurry for 2 more hits. 3d4+3d6+3*DEX
He does his same attack, 4d6+4*DEX

Total damage?
You - 4+4d4+4d6+4*DEX (28+4*DEX)
Him - 8d6+8*DEX (28+8*DEX)
Rogue - 6d4+4d6+6*DEX (29+6*DEX)

Screw that tho, Lets have another turn! My damage is amped up now after all!
You 6+7d4+7d6+7*DEX (48+7*DEX)
Him - 12d6+12*DEX (42+12*DEX)
Rogue - 8d4+6d6+8*DEX (41+8*DEX) [Ran out of Ki]

Okay, he's only slightly only 5x DEX ahead, but you're right on his tail! Let's go one more rou... Oh, you're out of Ki Points? Well you can still bonus action 1 more attack punch but... He's using Flurry, so you're going to fall behind again 2d4+2d6+2*DEX (12+2*DEX) vs 4d6+4*DEX (14+4*DEX). Even if he doesn't Flurry, he still has 3d6+3*DEX (10.5+3*DEX) which is probably still more than you

Not to mention, if that first enemy died. You need to spend of those Bonus Action attacks to move your Hunter's Mark onto the new guy while he just walks over and starts punching.

your math checks out but the thing is: the multiclass I want starts at lvl 5 Monk/ranger 2 total level is 7 (after my edit knowing that spell casting and fighting style comes into play at lvl 2) I would never try multiclass Monk before lvl 5 because of the extra attack, ASI and the martial arts d6 so the dex and martial art damage would be equal at lvl 7

[Talamare]

your math checks out but the thing is: the multiclass I want starts at lvl 5 Monk/ranger 2 total level is 7 (after my edit knowing that spell casting and fighting style comes into play at lvl 2) I would never try multiclass Monk before lvl 5 because of the extra attack, ASI and the martial arts d6 so the dex and martial art damage would be equal at lvl 7

*flips the table* *stomps repeatedly on the math papers on the ground*

I am curious tho, so I probably will do the math for a level 7 in a little while, just not right now
Edit - Altho, I think the math for a level 8 might give more accurate results, Rangers would get Colossal Slayer and Rogues get the additional d6. Pure gets a 2nd ASI
Level 20, you would just lose Empty Body which isn't a big deal. You still get your d10s

[BladeWing81]

*flips the table* *stomps repeatedly on the math papers on the ground*

I am curious tho, so I probably will do the math for a level 7 in a little while, just not right now

I'm sorry I probably wasn't clear of the multiclass level. :smalleek:

[BladeWing81]

*flips the table* *stomps repeatedly on the math papers on the ground*

I am curious tho, so I probably will do the math for a level 7 in a little while, just not right now
Edit - Altho, I think the math for a level 8 might give more accurate results, Rangers would get Colossal Slayer and Rogues get the additional d6. Pure gets a 2nd ASI
Level 20, you would just lose Empty Body which isn't a big deal. You still get your d10s

YEEESSS!!!
lvl 8 gets you the second ASI which might equal the dueling feature but also improves your saves and your AC.

at lvl 20 you get the 5 point palm exploding hearth technique from lvl 17 the benefits of ranger spells dueling, and colossal slayer but lose an ASI and empty body(perfect self really doesn't give anything from my perspective).

[bid]

Fighter might be a problem since it needs 13 Str to multiclass
Dex13 is enough. *or*

[BladeWing81]

Dex13 is enough. *or*
I would strongly disagree.

[Talamare]

Level 8 options
Pure - 8 Monk Extra ASI is being treated as +1 Damage
(1d6+Dex+1)*4 / Per Turn
Rogue - 5 Monk, 3 Rogue
2d6+(1d6+Dex)*4 / PT
Ranger - 5 Monk, 3 Ranger
1d6+1d8+(4d6+Dex)*4 on Good Turns || 1d6+1d8+(1d6+Dex)*2 on Bad Turns

I mean don't think I need to do any math here since its pretty clear

During levels 6~8, Pure Monk didn't gain that much when it comes to pure offensive capabilities. Only +1 Attack/Damage. They got a bunch of utility, and are closer to becoming significantly stronger at 11 when the d6s become d8s

However, I think Monk/Rogue still wins in the end.

Ranger Monk might have more damage on his good turns, but he has to constantly pay for it with bad turns.
Enemy full HP? Less effective turn.
Took damage and lost concentration? Less effective turn.
Need to cast Hunter's Mark? Less effective turn.
Enemy died and need to cast Hunter's Mark on the new guy? Less effective turn.
Need to cast Hunter's Mark but out of spell slots? Less effective for the rest of the day.

If we are just trying to Min Max, Maybe 11 Monk/9 Rogue would be best?

5d6 Sneak Attack
4 Attacks at d8

[Christian]

I would strongly disagree.

I'm pretty sure bid wasn't suggesting that you drop your Dex to 13 in order to pump Strength so you can multiclass monk and fighter (as I assume you thought). He was pointing out that you qualify for a fighter multiclass with a 13 Dex, which your monk certainly has, so you don't even need to think about Strength.

[BladeWing81]

Level 8 options
Pure - 8 Monk Extra ASI is being treated as +1 Damage
(1d6+Dex+1)*4 / Per Turn
Rogue - 5 Monk, 3 Rogue
2d6+(1d6+Dex)*4 / PT
Ranger - 5 Monk, 3 Ranger
1d6+1d8+(4d6+Dex)*4 on Good Turns || 1d6+1d8+(1d6+Dex)*2 on Bad Turns

I mean don't think I need to do any math here since its pretty clear

During levels 6~8, Pure Monk didn't gain that much when it comes to pure offensive capabilities. Only +1 Attack/Damage. They got a bunch of utility, and are closer to becoming significantly stronger at 11 when the d6s become d8s

However, I think Monk/Rogue still wins in the end.

Ranger Monk might have more damage on his good turns, but he has to constantly pay for it with bad turns.
Enemy full HP? Less effective turn.
Took damage and lost concentration? Less effective turn.
Need to cast Hunter's Mark? Less effective turn.
Enemy died and need to cast Hunter's Mark on the new guy? Less effective turn.
Need to cast Hunter's Mark but out of spell slots? Less effective for the rest of the day.

If we are just trying to Min Max, Maybe 11 Monk/9 Rogue would be best?

5d6 Sneak Attack
4 Attacks at d8

Wait I'm not sure we got this right,
lets treat it as Monk 5/ranger 3 dex mod as +4 and pure monk as +5 to avoid confusion and we also add +2 to the first two hits from dueling fighting style and lets be fair we only do 2 attacks on the first ranger turn for hunters mark taking the bonus action.
d6 avg 4, d8 avg 5 (I think, correct me if I'm wrong please)
first Turn
Pure - 8 Monk
(1d6+5)*4 / FT = 36
Rogue - 5 Monk, 3 Rogue lets give him the autocrit
4d6 (SA)+ (2d6+4) (FA crit) + (1d6+4)*3 (rest of the attacks) FT = 52
Ranger - 5 Monk, 3 Ranger
1d8+(2d6+4+2)*2 FT = 33

Next turn
Pure - 8 Monk
(1d6+5)*4 / PT = 36
Rogue - 5 Monk, 3
2d6 + (1d6+4)*4 PT = 40
Ranger - 5 Monk, 3 Ranger
1d8+(2d6+4+2)*2 + (2d6+4)*2 PT = 57

[BladeWing81]

I'm pretty sure bid wasn't suggesting that you drop your Dex to 13 in order to pump Strength so you can multiclass monk and fighter (as I assume you thought). He was pointing out that you qualify for a fighter multiclass with a 13 Dex, which your monk certainly has, so you don't even need to think about Strength.

OOOoooohhh my bad.

[Talamare]

Wait I'm not sure we got this right,
lets treat it as Monk 5/ranger 3 dex mod as +4 and pure monk as +5 to avoid confusion and we also add +2 to the first two hits from dueling fighting style and lets be fair we only do 2 attacks on the first ranger turn for hunters mark taking the bonus action.
d6 avg 4, d8 avg 5 (I think, correct me if I'm wrong please)
first Turn
Pure - 8 Monk
(1d6+5)*4 / FT = 36
Rogue - 5 Monk, 3 Rogue lets give him the autocrit
4d6 (SA)+ (2d6+4) (FA crit) + (1d6+4)*3 (rest of the attacks) FT = 52
Ranger - 5 Monk, 3 Ranger
1d8+(2d6+4+2)*2 FT = 33

Next turn
Pure - 8 Monk
(1d6+5)*4 / PT = 36
Rogue - 5 Monk, 3
2d6 + (1d6+4)*4 PT = 40
Ranger - 5 Monk, 3 Ranger
1d8+(2d6+4+2)*2 + (2d6+4)*2 PT = 57
Your math results are wrong [1d6 = 3.5 | 3.5 * 4 = 14 | 5 * 4 = 20 | 14+20=34], but you correctly found all the proper bonuses.

You're still not worth going Ranger tho.
I suggest Warlock
2 Levels gives you 2 level 1 spell casts per Short rest, compared to Rangers 3 per Long rest. You lose the +2 Damage from Dueling, but you can get it back by going 1 level into Fighter which would also give you a Second Wind for combat healing. Not to mention this way gives you Hellish Rebuke, which deals 2d10 as a reaction for when you are attacked and Armor of Agathys which makes you tankier and makes enemies that hit you take damage as well.

[Citan]

many Monk guides I've read say that ranger is a bad multiclass option but what about all of the goodies the Monk gets with a first lvl ranger multiclass.

am I interpreting something wrong? because I see nothing but good from this multiclass option.

Edit: I just realize that spellcasting and fighting style come into play until ranger lvl 2 so it would actally be Monk 5/ranger 2 to get most of the options I talk about if you're willing to make the grind up to lvl 7 with this option it's still might be a good option for boosting up the Monk damage.

Hi OP Hi all!
You're not wrong at all. Any guide that say that Ranger is a "bad" multiclass dip is wrong.

With that said, it's generally far from the best either.
1 level brings basically nothing. Here Ranger dip is worthless indeed.

2 levels can be good, but as noted by others, spellcast will be fairly limited and Dueling doesn't work with Unarmed Attacks AFAIK. It can be worked around though (just use Ki mainly for other Monk abilities such as Stunning Strike).

Note that if allowed, the Spellless Ranger would be much better here, providing manoeuvers (also short-rest resources) which are always useful for a Monk.

Fighter would be more or less equally good as normal Ranger because you get Fighting Style and Action Surge (depends on playstyle).

Rogue would be just a bit better for many players because of slight additional damage AND above all Cunning Action which is great for a Monk (actually not redundant, because it's ki-free).

Moon Druid would be much better because you get many good spells and cantrips as well as Wild Shape.

3 levels are good for Horde Breaker, especially combined with Stunning Strike. Beyond that you don't get much though.

In comparison, for 3 levels, many other classes bring you more directly useful features: Cleric and Druid brings lvl2 spells, Fighter brings manoeuvers or a bit of utility spellcasting, Rogue brings 2d6 extra attack plus other goodies (all archetypes can be good here, although I favor Swashbuckler first for free disengage, AT second for Shield and useful cantrips).

Not even talking about MAD builds (otherwise Warlock would be the obvious choice for Hex and invocations).

In short, Ranger dip is not a "bad idea", it works. Just know that it is not the best option mechanically.

For a build that works and is not too painful, I would suggest going OpenHand Monk + Spellless Ranger 2. You get always useful Manoeuvers (Precision Attack is a given, Evasive Footwork and Goading/Menacing Attack can be nice too) in addition to Dueling, and you don't block yourself from getting Empty Body and max monk damage/movement in case you manage to level up to 20.

My 2 cents :)

[Once a Fool]

Just want to point out that, for a monk/ranger multiclass, Longstrider might provide much more mileage (get it?) than Hunter's Mark. Extra mobility, no concentration, lasts an hour. Just cast it before the combat begins and you're golden.

[BladeWing81]

Just want to point out that, for a monk/ranger multiclass, Longstrider might provide much more mileage (get it?) than Hunter's Mark. Extra mobility, no concentration, lasts an hour. Just cast it before the combat begins and you're golden.

I'm already thinking about taking mobile feat from V-human to avoid melee attacks as much as possible, but having an extra 10 feet might come in handy at sometime or another.

[BladeWing81]

Your math results are wrong [1d6 = 3.5 | 3.5 * 4 = 14 | 5 * 4 = 20 | 14+20=34], but you correctly found all the proper bonuses.

You're still not worth going Ranger tho.
I suggest Warlock
2 Levels gives you 2 level 1 spell casts per Short rest, compared to Rangers 3 per Long rest. You lose the +2 Damage from Dueling, but you can get it back by going 1 level into Fighter which would also give you a Second Wind for combat healing. Not to mention this way gives you Hellish Rebuke, which deals 2d10 as a reaction for when you are attacked and Armor of Agathys which makes you tankier and makes enemies that hit you take damage as well.

that was my first idea, Ranger came about because Hunters mark is the only spell I could think of that remotely comes close Hex, but that would make the character MAD just to get the Charisma up to 13.

[bid]

OOOoooohhh my bad.
You're welcome.:smallcool:

[djreynolds]

Run, and the run some more and shoot and run. Very sweet archer who can also run in a bring the pain. Have the DM wish up a quarterstaff/long bow.

[BladeWing81]

Run, and the run some more and shoot and run. Very sweet archer who can also run in a bring the pain. Have the DM wish up a quarterstaff/long bow.

I have the idea for V-human with mobile so the run then run some more is aaaaaall part of the plan ;-)

[djreynolds]

I have the idea for V-human with mobile so the run then run some more is aaaaaall part of the plan ;-)

Ranger at 2nd level will give you archery style, +2. No reason you cannot shoot an arrow and then move in and melee. A monk really has no ranged presence, it is his speed he uses in essence to cover that distance as an archer uses his bow. Now you can do both effectively.

Ranger and monk are very similar in terms of what they do in combat. Crazy? Right? Force the enemy from spreading out and make the stragglers with use of a bow or speed move closer together, funnel them to the tanks and great AoE pockets for the casters to hurt. Enemy love to spread out, your job is to load the bases for that tank to clean up. Archery and speed will make this easier, wounded enemy will group to the healer and make a nice big target for a wizard's fireball or a fighter's many attacks to hurt.

[Zalabim]

1d8+(2d6+6)*2+2d6+4=41.5(Monk 5/Ranger 3, good round, no Ki.)
.936+.078 (Chance for colossus slayer+chance it crits, assuming enemy is damaged)
27.813 (average damage, assuming 60% hit chance.)

1d8+(2d6+6)*2+(2d6+4)*2=52.5 (Monk 5/ Ranger 3, good round, Ki.)
.9744+.0812 (Chance for colossus slayer+chance it crits, assuming enemy is damaged)
34.9502 (average damage, assuming 60% hit chance.)

2d6+6*2+1d8=30.5 (Monk 5/ Ranger 3, bad round.)
.36+.05 (Chance for colossus slayer+chance it crits, assuming enemy is undamaged)
18.145 (average damage, assuming 60% hit chance)
18.145*3+34.9502*5=229.186 (Total damage of 8 rounds, 3 bad, 5 good.)

2d8+2d6+20=36 (Monk 8, using quarterstaff or spear as is customary)
24.2*8=193.6 (Average damage assuming 65% hit chance. Total damage of 8 rounds assuming Flurry, no stuns.)

4d6+8d6+16=58 (Monk 5/ Rogue 3 assassinating)
.9744+.84 (chance to sneak attack, chance to hit with advantage)
50.6016+25.07*4+20.395*3=212.0666 (Average damage assuming base 60% hit chance. Total damage of 8 rounds.)

2d6+2d6+2d6+16=37 (Monk 5/ Rogue 3, Ki.)
.84+.07 (Chance to sneak attack, chance it crits)
25.07 (Average damage assuming 60% hit chance.)

2d6+2d6+1d6+12=29.5 (Monk 5/ Rogue 3, no Ki.)
.84+.07 (Chance to sneak attack, chance it crits)
20.395 (Average damage assuming 60% hit chance.)

20.395*3+25.07*5=186.535 (total damage of 8 rounds)

4d6+10*stuff=22.425*8=179.4/4d6+14*stuff=25.935*8=207.48 (Barbarian 8 Reckless attack+no-rage/Reckless attack+rage with maul. 20 Str, no feats. Reference value.)

Ranger is hoping all the fights between short rests fit into 1 hour duration, and to never lose concentration, so there's enough Hunter's Mark to last the day.

For Monk, using Stunning Strike and Flurry together is better than just flurry, but also a major assumption to make regarding chance for the stun to succeed.

For Rogue, is hoping to assassinate a whole lot, or else trading some offensive power right now for expertise, Ki-free cunning action, Swashbuckler's extra mobility, etc. Needing special conditions to sneak attack means being more limited in targets at times.

I personally support going for archery style and broadening your Monk's combat abilities if you're interested in multiclassing. You can even make ranged attacks just fine in melee with an enemy that's already been stunned.

[BladeWing81]

1d8+(2d6+6)*2+2d6+4=41.5(Monk 5/Ranger 3, good round, no Ki.)
.936+.078 (Chance for colossus slayer+chance it crits, assuming enemy is damaged)
27.813 (average damage, assuming 60% hit chance.)

1d8+(2d6+6)*2+(2d6+4)*2=52.5 (Monk 5/ Ranger 3, good round, Ki.)
.9744+.0812 (Chance for colossus slayer+chance it crits, assuming enemy is damaged)
34.9502 (average damage, assuming 60% hit chance.)

2d6+6*2+1d8=30.5 (Monk 5/ Ranger 3, bad round.)
.36+.05 (Chance for colossus slayer+chance it crits, assuming enemy is undamaged)
18.145 (average damage, assuming 60% hit chance)
18.145*3+34.9502*5=229.186 (Total damage of 8 rounds, 3 bad, 5 good.)

2d8+2d6+20=36 (Monk 8, using quarterstaff or spear as is customary)
24.2*8=193.6 (Average damage assuming 65% hit chance. Total damage of 8 rounds assuming Flurry, no stuns.)

4d6+8d6+16=58 (Monk 5/ Rogue 3 assassinating)
.9744+.84 (chance to sneak attack, chance to hit with advantage)
50.6016+25.07*4+20.395*3=212.0666 (Average damage assuming base 60% hit chance. Total damage of 8 rounds.)

2d6+2d6+2d6+16=37 (Monk 5/ Rogue 3, Ki.)
.84+.07 (Chance to sneak attack, chance it crits)
25.07 (Average damage assuming 60% hit chance.)

2d6+2d6+1d6+12=29.5 (Monk 5/ Rogue 3, no Ki.)
.84+.07 (Chance to sneak attack, chance it crits)
20.395 (Average damage assuming 60% hit chance.)

20.395*3+25.07*5=186.535 (total damage of 8 rounds)

4d6+10*stuff=22.425*8=179.4/4d6+14*stuff=25.935*8=207.48 (Barbarian 8 Reckless attack+no-rage/Reckless attack+rage with maul. 20 Str, no feats. Reference value.)

Ranger is hoping all the fights between short rests fit into 1 hour duration, and to never lose concentration, so there's enough Hunter's Mark to last the day.

For Monk, using Stunning Strike and Flurry together is better than just flurry, but also a major assumption to make regarding chance for the stun to succeed.

For Rogue, is hoping to assassinate a whole lot, or else trading some offensive power right now for expertise, Ki-free cunning action, Swashbuckler's extra mobility, etc. Needing special conditions to sneak attack means being more limited in targets at times.

I personally support going for archery style and broadening your Monk's combat abilities if you're interested in multiclassing. You can even make ranged attacks just fine in melee with an enemy that's already been stunned.

Thanks do much for your full analysis on these options, it looks like ranger is not only viable but it's also very good. 30 damage points over the base Monk is nothing to sneeze at the only real issue is that first ranger level where I get squat from the multiclass. thanks to all for your help. at the moment I have a lvl 3 Vhuman open hand monk with Mobile feat so after lvl 5 I'll have a choice of either ranger or rogue, but thanks to you I'm even more inclined for the ranger.

[BladeWing81]

I would kill for an official Monk subclass that could cast either hunters mark or hex or a new spell with a similar effect (that last 1 hour and adds at least 1d6 to every hit), the monk sorely needs some damage boost. Cast the spell with 2 or 3 ki points since Monks can just make a short rest and recuperate the ki so as to not make it too OP or give the monk some proper spellcasting slots to cast the spell without Ki.

[Quintessence]

I would kill for an official Monk subclass that could cast either hunters mark or hex or a new spell with a similar effect (that last 1 hour and adds at least 1d6 to every hit), the monk sorely needs some damage boost. Cast the spell with 2 or 3 ki points since Monks can just make a short rest and recuperate the ki so as to not make it too OP or give the monk some proper spellcasting slots to cast the spell without Ki.

Magic initiate is as close as you are going to get :(

[bid]

I would kill for an official Monk subclass that could cast either hunters mark or hex or a new spell with a similar effect (that last 1 hour and adds at least 1d6 to every hit), the monk sorely needs some damage boost.
Dip warlock 2 and use armor of shadow. You can even get Con16 with half-elf 8 16 16 8 13 14.

[djreynolds]

I would kill for an official Monk subclass that could cast either hunters mark or hex or a new spell with a similar effect (that last 1 hour and adds at least 1d6 to every hit), the monk sorely needs some damage boost. Cast the spell with 2 or 3 ki points since Monks can just make a short rest and recuperate the ki so as to not make it too OP or give the monk some proper spellcasting slots to cast the spell without Ki.

Just take magic initiate, hunter's mark is 1d6 extra every attack, no matter what weapon. I find rogue is very front loaded class and easy to dip. 3 levels of Swashbuckler is huge for mobility on the battlefield. Ranger is great.

Just remember you have 20 levels and it may take along time to realize any concept you have. Unless you have to be a skill master, take 6 levels of monk straight away, also pick wood elf as you will get a long bow right away and dark vision and two stats you need and perception (not original, but good), you need that 2nd attack at 5th and 6th gives magic fists.

If you do not do this, you will be stuck using a staff for a long time as you main attack, which isn't bad.

But perhaps, this isn't what you want. Other classes can mimic the monk's mobility on the battlefield, and if you do not put levels in monk (16 levels) you will never get 1d10 with your fists.

So instead of monk/ranger. Just give me an image of this person in combat, perhaps what you want can be done without even being a monk. Wisdom requirements of a monk can be steep, especially for armor, and leather will give you a 17 with max dexterity and no pumps on wisdom. Not bad. Not a 20AC but not terrible. More stats for constitution.

So classes aside, how does this guy or gal get it done when the chips are down. Then we can optimize that concept.

[BladeWing81]

Just take magic initiate, hunter's mark is 1d6 extra every attack, no matter what weapon. I find rogue is very front loaded class and easy to dip. 3 levels of Swashbuckler is huge for mobility on the battlefield. Ranger is great.

Just remember you have 20 levels and it may take along time to realize any concept you have. Unless you have to be a skill master, take 6 levels of monk straight away, also pick wood elf as you will get a long bow right away and dark vision and two stats you need and perception (not original, but good), you need that 2nd attack at 5th and 6th gives magic fists.

If you do not do this, you will be stuck using a staff for a long time as you main attack, which isn't bad.

But perhaps, this isn't what you want. Other classes can mimic the monk's mobility on the battlefield, and if you do not put levels in monk (16 levels) you will never get 1d10 with your fists.

So instead of monk/ranger. Just give me an image of this person in combat, perhaps what you want can be done without even being a monk. Wisdom requirements of a monk can be steep, especially for armor, and leather will give you a 17 with max dexterity and no pumps on wisdom. Not bad. Not a 20AC but not terrible. More stats for constitution.

So classes aside, how does this guy or gal get it done when the chips are down. Then we can optimize that concept.

the whole idea behind this was to make a Monk that is able to make powerful hit and run attacks, using mostly his fist, in a way that his own punches are imbued with his own ki.

This effect was noticed effectively with the monk of the four elements when I was able to use Fangs of the fire snake which made him able to expand his fist strikes up to 15ft and with extra ki you where able to add an extra 1d10 of fire damage to each of those punches this was a great way to not only be able to hit while avoiding direct attacks but also worked as a way to improve my damage output unfortunately in the early lvls you could only do this once if you where able to hit with all of your punches it would cost you 6 ki points (1 for the fang, 1 for the flurry of blows and 4 for each hit).

After the Sword coast adventure guide came out, I saw the sun soul monk with the searing sun strike and saw it as a great option, it didn't have the burst damage but it did have the ranged attack that made me a great skirmisher and allowed me more mobility by not engaging in direct combat. I asked my DM to allow me to change subclass to the new option and it's been working great since then.

then I noticed some friends that had ranger and warlock and saw that their main source of damage came not from their attacks but from their long lasting spells hex and hunter mark which basically did what the Fangs of the fire snake did by adding damage per attacks landed although a bit weaker it did last for at least 4 to 5 battles. This seemed like the perfect match for me if I could somehow obtain one of those spells in addition with the searing sun strike it would be like having a semi permanent Fangs of the fire snake which not only gave me a great boost of damage but also an awesome way to avoid attacks and lure other enemies from battle by taunting them.

[djreynolds]

the whole idea behind this was to make a Monk that is able to make powerful hit and run attacks, using mostly his fist, in a way that his own punches are imbued with his own ki.

This effect was noticed effectively with the monk of the four elements when I was able to use Fangs of the fire snake which made him able to expand his fist strikes up to 15ft and with extra ki you where able to add an extra 1d10 of fire damage to each of those punches this was a great way to not only be able to hit while avoiding direct attacks but also worked as a way to improve my damage output unfortunately in the early lvls you could only do this once if you where able to hit with all of your punches it would cost you 6 ki points (1 for the fang, 1 for the flurry of blows and 4 for each hit).

After the Sword coast adventure guide came out, I saw the sun soul monk with the searing sun strike and saw it as a great option, it didn't have the burst damage but it did have the ranged attack that made me a great skirmisher and allowed me more mobility by not engaging in direct combat. I asked my DM to allow me to change subclass to the new option and it's been working great since then.

then I noticed some friends that had ranger and warlock and saw that their main source of damage came not from their attacks but from their long lasting spells hex and hunter mark which basically did what the Fangs of the fire snake did by adding damage per attacks landed although a bit weaker it did last for at least 4 to 5 battles. This seemed like the perfect match for me if I could somehow obtain one of those spells in addition with the searing sun strike it would be like having a semi permanent Fangs of the fire snake which not only gave me a great boost of damage but also an awesome way to avoid attacks and lure other enemies from battle by taunting them.

See, now I have a very, very cool image.

[BladeWing81]

See, now I have a very, very cool image.

In the beginning I wanted to improve Monk damage the best way possible but really the idea of shooting energy strikes (a la Dragon ball Z) is my favorite part of the sun soul Monk if I could make those strikes have some extra "humph" that would be sweet! The only option for the sun soul monk is either warlock with hex or divine favor from the War Cleric because hunters Mark requires a weapon attack. The easiest one is divine favor by multiclassing War Cleric, the extra damage is almost comical with a 1d4 and it only lasts for 10 minutes but you would get a huge boost in utility spells from the start with the cleric. For hex on the other hand, the best way would be with Magic initiate so as to avoid going MAD and since you still get 2 cantrips so you can even use eldritch Blast in conjunction with 1 spell slot for Hex and shoot a long distance spell attack while you go up to lvl 5 for the extra attack if you used a Variant-human and grabbed the Feat at the start of lvl 1.

[djreynolds]

Do not forget sharpshooter, and take the archery style. That +2 to hit, makes sharpshooter -3 to hit, out weighs duelist. When you need it, you have a real ranged presence.

[BladeWing81]

Do not forget sharpshooter, and take the archery style. That +2 to hit, makes sharpshooter -3 to hit, out weighs duelist. When you need it, you have a real ranged presence.

the character I'm thinking is not a long range fighter, the sun soul excels in hit and run tactics by being close enough to hit with his radiant sun bolts and taunting his enemies and at the same time move away from harm whenever possible and dish-out heavy hits and stunning strikes if someone gets close enough for melee combat. if I where to change the style I would rather grab spell sniper feat to double the distance of the radiant sun bolts since it's a spell attacks and remove the cover restrictions of other creatures.

[djreynolds]

the character I'm thinking is not a long range fighter, the sun soul excels in hit and run tactics by being close enough to hit with his radiant sun bolts and taunting his enemies and at the same time move away from harm whenever possible and dish-out heavy hits and stunning strikes if someone gets close enough for melee combat. if I where to change the style I would rather grab spell sniper feat to double the distance of the radiant sun bolts since it's a spell attacks and remove the cover restrictions of other creatures.

Still looks cool. Style is more important than anything. Its a cool concept.