Should Linguistics be a knowledge skill?

[gadren]

I've been revamping the Pathfinder knowledge skills, and I was looking at Linguistics and wondering why it isn't a knowledge field, and was thinking about changing it to "Knowledge (linguistics)" to benefit from things like Bardic Knowledge.
Thoughts?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I dunno; it's a weird, bastardized skill, created by smooshing together Forgery and Speak Language from 3.5. The latter was basically a second, entirely unrelated use for skill points, the former was a barely-used pseudosocial skill, and neither really make sense together. To be honest, I think I'd drop the skill entirely-- let skill points -> languages be its own thing, and fold Forgery into Deception.

[gadren]

I dunno; it's a weird, bastardized skill, created by smooshing together Forgery and Speak Language from 3.5. The latter was basically a second, entirely unrelated use for skill points, the former was a barely-used pseudosocial skill, and neither really make sense together. To be honest, I think I'd drop the skill entirely-- let skill points -> languages be its own thing, and fold Forgery into Deception.
Hmm, what do you think about gaining free languages from Knowledge (history)? Seems like studying history in a primitive setting would necessitate learning more languages.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Forgery might be modelled by a complex skill check, involving Knowledge (Local) or Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), plus a Craft (Calligraphy) or Profession (Scribe) check. Or, if you are writing a personal letter, maybe Sense Motive versus the person you're writing to, plus Craft or Profession.


Edit: History is almost completely unrelated to learning languages. However, Knowledge (Local) might award the local language, as appropriate.

[Grod_The_Giant]

However, Knowledge (Local) might award the local language, as appropriate.
I can see this, particularly as Local actually covers all cities and peoples everywhere.

[gadren]

Hmm, except I had already dumped knowledge local.
Maybe make it so you get languages for free for having a certain number of ranks in certain skills. Like picking up Fey if you have 5 ranks in knowledge: Nature, etc

[Kurald Galain]

I've been revamping the Pathfinder knowledge skills, and I was looking at Linguistics and wondering why it isn't a knowledge field, and was thinking about changing it to "Knowledge (linguistics)" to benefit from things like Bardic Knowledge.
Thoughts?
I'm actually fine with Linguistics as written, i.e. you gain one language per rank in it, and you can make checks on that to figure out codes, cryptograms, or languages you don't know. A bonus to language checks would apply to the latter without giving you extra languages known.

And yes, that strikes me as a knowledge skill.

I don't think that most languages in the world would readily correspond to some other knowledge check, no.

[Psyren]

To be honest, I think I'd drop the skill entirely-- let skill points -> languages be its own thing, and fold Forgery into Deception.

My issue here is that skilled forgery depends more on precision and attention to detail than it does on being persuasive. Your forgery has to be able to stand up to scrutiny even when you yourself aren't there to back it up, e.g. your "writ from the king" being taken from you by the fussy clerk and brought to the scheming duke before he grants you an audience. So tying it to Deception, which is presumably your version of Bluff/Disguise and based on Cha, doesn't seem quite right to me.

[tomandtish]

I dunno; it's a weird, bastardized skill, created by smooshing together Forgery and Speak Language from 3.5. The latter was basically a second, entirely unrelated use for skill points, the former was a barely-used pseudosocial skill, and neither really make sense together. To be honest, I think I'd drop the skill entirely-- let skill points -> languages be its own thing, and fold Forgery into Deception.


My issue here is that skilled forgery depends more on precision and attention to detail than it does on being persuasive. Your forgery has to be able to stand up to scrutiny even when you yourself aren't there to back it up, e.g. your "writ from the king" being taken from you by the fussy clerk and brought to the scheming duke before he grants you an audience. So tying it to Deception, which is presumably your version of Bluff/Disguise and based on Cha, doesn't seem quite right to me.

I'd have to agree with Psyren. The problem is that depending on what you are trying to do you may need two (or even more) distinct skill sets.

If I'm trying to fake the Queen's signature on a standard jail release form, all I need is forgery. This is straight mechanics. How well can I physically copy the signature.

But if I'm trying to fake the Queen's journal and I don't have one to go by, then I need a good understanding of what she's like as a person. What she dreams about, who she actually likes and dislikes (as well as who she pretends to like and dislike), what her fears may be, etc. This could easily require a Knowledge check for parts, a bluff check for parts, and a forgery check to make sure it physically looks correct.

[gadren]

A couple things to note:
PF's Linguistics combines 3.5's Speak Language, Forgery, AND Decipher Script. While I do feel Forgery seems out of place, putting Speak Language and Decipher Script together makes sense.

Forgery honestly seems like something that shouldn't have its own skill, because different types of forgeries would require different skills that already exist in the game. At the base, most forgeries require a Craft or Proffession check, some more complex than others. Making a forgery of the crown jewels would require a craft (jewelry) check opposed by an appraise check with a modifier based on the appraiser's familiarity with and knowledge of the Crown Jewels and how closely they are able to study it. Linguistics would have no part in it. A forged warrant to search someone's house could be made with a profession (beuracrat) or (scribe) check, and might be opposed by a profession (guard) check when presented to the captain of the town guard. Etc.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eh, true on the Forgery bit, but I think I'm with Gadren-- it's not really its own skill. A Craft or Profession (Scribe) to make the fake documents, then the social skills to bluff your way through.

[Coidzor]

If you take out Forgery, sure.

Forgeries would become part of the particular craft skill, like calligraphy, printing, sculpture, painting, etc.


Hmm, except I had already dumped knowledge local.
Maybe make it so you get languages for free for having a certain number of ranks in certain skills. Like picking up Fey if you have 5 ranks in knowledge: Nature, etc

Neat idea, I like it.

Planar languages would go with Planes and Religion, Nature might have Sylvan and Elven and maybe the elemental ones or more out there monstrous humanoids/magical beasts

Nobility and history would probably be a little tricky.

Local would be any humanoids, pretty easily.

Dungeoneering could do aberration, undercommon, maybe DSL.

Engineering only suggests dwarf and gnome and goblin in some settings. maybe the LN planar language.

Arcana would basically be a grab bag.