Old Dagger-man-jensen: The Throwing Nightmare

[Vbananas]

So I've always had a fascination with getting throwing weapons to be at least somewhat viable in a roleplaying game. Pathfinder smacked the concept with a painful nerf (No master Thrower equivalent PrC).
I am looking to see if this build has
A) Been done elsewhere
B) Follows the 3.5 rules
C) Looks viable
D) Reeks too heavily of cheese

The class focuses on maximizing the number of sneak die per attack, as well as maximizing the number of attacks possible. Combine these with the Master Thrower's Palm Throw (throw two weapons with each attack) and Weak Spot (attack vs touch against a target of same size or larger) abilities, and a greater invisibility anything lets you throw a ridiculous number of daggers (Dragon #275's Crescent Knife) with sneak damage against an enemy who is flatfooted and not applying their armor.

Race: Strongheart Halfing for the extra feat, +1 with throwing weapon, and all good thigns involving size bonuses.

Here are the levels taken, with important class features:

(1) Rogue 1, 1d6 sneak
(2) Thug Fighter 1, 2d6 sneak
(3) Thug Fighter 2
(4) Thug Fighter 3, 3d6 sneak
(5) Thug Fighter 4
(6) Thug Fighter 5, 4d6 sneak
(7) Master Thrower 1, Quick Draw/Palm Throw
(8) Master Thrower 2,
(9) Master Thrower 3, Defensive Toss
(10) Master Thrower 4, Arrows
(11) Master Thrower 5, Weak Spot/Critical Throw
After This, the levels aren't to important, but the aim is to grab as many sneak die as (in)humanly possible.

(12) Rogue 2
(13) Rogue 3, 5d6 sneak
(14) Assassin 1, 6d6 sneak/death attack
(15) Spell Thief 1, 7d6 sneak
(16) Thug Fighter 6,
(17) Thug Fighter 7, 8d6
(18) Thug Fighter 8,
(19) Thug Fighter 9, 9d6
(20) Literally anything

This results in having 9d6 sneak damage, and a BAB of 17.

Feats, with respective levels and drawbacks
Level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Crescent Knife, Dragon Magazine #275)
Halfling: Precise Shot
Extra from flaw #1: Craven
Flaw #1: Noncombatant (-2 in melee combat)
Extra from Flaw #2: Point Blank Shot
Flaw #2: Vulnerable (-1 to AC)
Level 3: Weapon Focus (Crescent Knife)
Level 6: Rapid Shot
Level 9: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 12: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 18: Woodland Archer (If it applies to thrown weapons)


With a BAB of +17, you have three iterative attacks at +17/+12/+7/+2
Rapid Shot changes this to +15/+15/+10/+5/+0
Two Weapon Fighting Feat Chain changes it to +13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3/-2
That's a lot of weapons flying at whoever you want to die. But it gets better.

Expansion with Palm Throw (bold to show doubling of the above combination)
+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3/+3/+3/-2/-2

Then the Crescent Knife effect, which effectively doubles the existing standing of attacks:
+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3/-2/-2/-2/-2

For those who do not want to count, that brings Old Dagger-man-jensen up to a total of 32 separate attack rolls, which means you get a maximum of 32 instances of 9d6+20 (Craven) sneak damage, for a total of 288d6+640 of sneak damage. Seeing as though you are attacking against Touch (from Weak Shot) and Flat-Footed, it will not be hard to beat any AC. I have intentionally left out any bonuses to hit, such as DEX, Halfing+1 on thrown, weapon focus, etc. This is because most of these bonuses are subjective to change depending on the situation, and it is a ****-ton of small math that I do not want to do.


The initial problems I see with this build:
First, there are a large enemies with immunity to sneak attack damage. I am ignoring those enemies.
Second, where are the daggers stored? I have no realistic answer for this. The best I can fathom is the halfling is wearing two bandoleers covered in daggers, a Belt of Dexterity with numerous dagger sheathes, some cargo pants covered in daggers, and maybe wrist sheathes with daggers. Past that, I'm out of dagger slots.

So finally, I ask for your feedback. Too much cheese? Does it follow all rules of sneak attack and thrown weapons? Can a halfling really carry 16 daggers at once?

[ComaVision]

Needs more Aptitude and Boomerang Daze.

[Esprit15]

Can you get Assassin's Stance in there, maybe with a dip of Swordsage? That's an extra 2d6 sneak attack.

[Vbananas]

Can you get Assassin's Stance in there, maybe with a dip of Swordsage? That's an extra 2d6 sneak attack.

I had thought about this, but the 5 levels of swordsage required would put a hole in the BAB, and only gives the same sneak attack as the Thug Fighter variant in that number of levels. This would reduce the number of attacks by 4 (it cuts off the +2 iterative attack). However, they do have some amazing abilities like Shadow Jaunt (for mobility and utility) and Burning Blade (extra damage).

[ComaVision]

I had thought about this, but the 5 levels of swordsage required would put a hole in the BAB, and only gives the same sneak attack as the Thug Fighter variant in that number of levels. This would reduce the number of attacks by 4 (it cuts off the +2 iterative attack). However, they do have some amazing abilities like Shadow Jaunt (for mobility and utility) and Burning Blade (extra damage).

Non-Swordsage levels count as 1/2 a swordsage level for the purposes of selecting maneuvers and stances. You can dip one level of Swordsage at level 9 (initiator level of 5) and pick up Assassin's Stance.

[dascarletm]

I see you retrain your Point Blank Shot at level 2.

What do you train it into, and what source provides you Point Blank Shot to gain Rapid Shot later on?

[Vbananas]

Non-Swordsage levels count as 1/2 a swordsage level for the purposes of selecting maneuvers and stances. You can dip one level of Swordsage at level 9 (initiator level of 5) and pick up Assassin's Stance.

This I did not know. I guess I'll be grabbing one level of Swordsage at some point of the build. Probably right after the final level of Master Thrower. My thanks to you!

[Tohsaka Rin]

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--2tZyQYzr--/19gsy6h6tcf15jpg.jpg

Couldn't resist, sorry.

On a more serious note, grab a Gauntlet of Infinite Blades from page 101 of the Magic Item Compendium, and make sure you get a hold of a party member/NPC that can modify/craft it for you to work at will, instead of as a swift-action.

Blades for days.

[Vbananas]

I see you retrain your Point Blank Shot at level 2.

What do you train it into, and what source provides you Point Blank Shot to gain Rapid Shot later on?

When I said this I meant that whatever feat I would have grabbed from the drawback (not important) would be re-trained into Point Blank shot. In reality, I had gotten a few pre-requisites mixed up and I thought that it required a BAB of +1, which it does not. I'll make the appropriate edits now.

[AvatarVecna]

1) If possible, work Bloodstorm Blade 4 into your build; this gives you some maneuvers (potentially including the Blood In The Water stance), lets you apply things like Power Attack to your attacks, and makes it so you only need at most 4 Crescent Knives to make this work, allowing you to enchant them much more easily.

2) If you think this is a lot of attacks, I can tell you it gets even worse if you make those Crescent Knives into Keen Aptitude weapons and have the right feats: Snap Kick and Slashing Flurry get you another two base attacks (which turns into a total of 8 extra attacks with Palm Throw and Crescent Knives), while combining the previously mentioned Blood In The Water stance with Lightning Mace and Roundabout Kick (applied to your aptitude weapons) gets you decent odds at a number attacks equal to "however many it takes to kill everybody in range".

[Gallowglass]

I don't see a throw range on the crescent knife

http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/forum/t-474331/crescent-knife-dragon-magazine-275

based on the visual description,it doesn't seem like a throwing weapon. The double attacks seem to come from "rocking" the blade back and forth when you slash with it. Are you sure you can throw it?

also, from reading palm throw it says you only make one attack roll for both "small knives" you toss with the attack. Based on that, wouldn't you only get the sneak attack damage once per the rules compendium errata that says with attacks like rapid shot and manyshot you only get it once. So your throws would be 1 attack roll for (roll knife damage twice)+(sneak attack fistful of d6s),not 2 attack rolls for 2*(knife damage + sneak attack)

[AvatarVecna]

I don't see a throw range on the crescent knife

http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/forum/t-474331/crescent-knife-dragon-magazine-275

based on the visual description,it doesn't seem like a throwing weapon. The double attacks seem to come from "rocking" the blade back and forth when you slash with it. Are you sure you can throw it?

also, from reading palm throw it says you only make one attack roll for both "small knives" you toss with the attack. Based on that, wouldn't you only get the sneak attack damage once per the rules compendium errata that says with attacks like rapid shot and manyshot you only get it once. So your throws would be 1 attack roll for (roll knife damage twice)+(sneak attack fistful of d6s),not 2 attack rolls for 2*(knife damage + sneak attack)

Per the Player's Handbook and the SRD, any weapon can be thrown; if it wasn't designed for throwing (such as a Greatsword or similar), you take a -4 penalty to the attack roll and the range increment is 10 ft. Incidentally, this is also something the Bloodstorm Blade PrC gets around by gaining the Throw Anything feat at BB 1.

EDIT: That is to say, having that feat removes the penalty, although it doesn't increase the range. Still, with Far Shot and the Distance enchantment, you can increase that to 40 ft (or 120 ft, if you can convince your DM to let you apply Ranged Weapon Mastery to a thrown weapon).

EDIT 2: I don't recall SA not applying to Rapid Shot, but that's how it normally works with Manyshot, and without checking all the finicky little rules for it, I'm pretty sure that rule also applies to Palm Throw (that is, it only applies once per attack roll, rather than to each weapon thrown).

[Gallowglass]

Per the Player's Handbook and the SRD, any weapon can be thrown; if it wasn't designed for throwing (such as a Greatsword or similar), you take a -4 penalty to the attack roll and the range increment is 10 ft. Incidentally, this is also something the Bloodstorm Blade PrC gets around by gaining the Throw Anything feat at BB 1.

EDIT: That is to say, having that feat removes the penalty, although it doesn't increase the range. Still, with Far Shot and the Distance enchantment, you can increase that to 40 ft (or 120 ft, if you can convince your DM to let you apply Ranged Weapon Mastery to a thrown weapon).

Seems kind of iffy to expect to get the two attacks while throwing it. That would be like throwing a quarterstaff and wanting to use its double weapon property to hit with both sides of the staff. But I guess this is just a RAW exercise. *shrug*

[AvatarVecna]

Seems kind of iffy to expect to get the two attacks while throwing it. That would be like throwing a quarterstaff and wanting to use its double weapon property to hit with both sides of the staff. But I guess this is just a RAW exercise. *shrug*

If you're taking all the penalties involved with throwing a double weapon that wasn't meant to be thrown, you can get all the attacks. It's a simulation game, it's not perfect. The RAW is all we've got to go on, without a real DM, so that's the advice we can give.

Of course, if I'm going pure RAW BS, I don't wield Crescent Knives, because they're Dragon Mag and don't have the crit threat range necessary to really abuse the Aptitude+Keen+Blood In The Water+Lightning Maces+Roundabout Kick combo I mentioned earlier.

[gorfnab]

Non-Swordsage levels count as 1/2 a swordsage level for the purposes of selecting maneuvers and stances. You can dip one level of Swordsage at level 9 (initiator level of 5) and pick up Assassin's Stance.
You can do Assassin's Stance with one level of Swordsage if you take the feat Martial Stance. The first level of Swordsage only gives you a level 1 stance. However you could take a second level at level 9+ and gain Assassin's Stance without spending a feat.


Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you. At 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level, you can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times, and you can change the stance you currently use as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description.

Unlike with maneuvers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.


Here is a dagger throwing build I came up with sometime ago. It can also do melee dagger attacking as well. It gets you 2x(Dex mod) + Int mod on ranged attacks and Dex mod + Int mod on melee along with 7d6 sneak attack + Craven.

Strongheart Halfling or Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF(DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade
7. Swashbuckler
8. Fighter - Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF (DotU - if your DM is lenient), Targeteer ACF (DragMag 310)- Vital Aim
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage (Assassin's Stance)
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Some ideas for getting infinite daggers to throw:
Glove of Endless Javelins - ask the DM if you can change the javelin part to daggers if you also reduce the damage from 1d6+1 to 1d4+1
Quiver of Anariel - ask the DM if you can change the "Quiver" to "Bandoleer" and arrow(s) to dagger(s).
Quiver of Anariel



Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.
Thankfully someone saved this article here (http://web.archive.org/web/20070401150041/http:/ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats) since WOTC decided to delete the original posting.

Other items to consider:
Rogue's Vest (MIC)
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM)
Bracers of the Hunter (SoX)

[ComaVision]

You can do Assassin's Stance with one level of Swordsage if you take the feat Martial Stance. The first level of Swordsage only gives you a level 1 stance. However you could take a second level at level 9+ and gain Assassin's Stance without spending a feat.

Strict RAW, you're absolutely correct. However, I don't think that's the RAI.

[Amphetryon]

There's no reason not to include the variant Halfling Rogue substitution level from RoTW and gain an additional +1d6 SA on your Thrown weapons, if you're going to hyper-focus on that tactic.

[Warrnan]

I usually grab improved initiative and one level of nightsong enforcer because the prereqs are so easy for a rogue, comes with descent skill list, one base attack, 1d6 sneak attack and d10HD.

This is a viable choice for your last level. I would try to fit in assassin stance but with a pair of shadow hands instead of a level of swordsage. This is the most SA dice I've been able to conjure up on a mundane character.

[Platymus Pus]

How does the dagger throwing rogue deal with rust fog?
Also don't think Rapid Shot works that way.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/rapid-shot-combat---final
Are you going to be making full attacks with a single thrown knife?
Are you going to be firing the knife?

[AvatarVecna]

How does the dagger throwing rogue deal with rust fog?
Also don't think Rapid Shot works that way.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/rapid-shot-combat---final
Are you going to be making full attacks with a single thrown knife?
Are you going to be firing the knife?

And there's the obligatory "PF link in a 3.5 thread" guy. The 3.5 version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rapidShot) (which is what's relevant in this thread) does not use the word fire. Making a full attack with thrown weapons requires either enough of said thrown weapons to make one attack with each weapon (ie throwing four daggers to make four attacks) or some way of auto-returning weapons so that they can be thrown multiple times in the same round (such as via the Bloodstorm Blade 4 I mentioned earlier, as well as Pathfinder's "Blinkback Belt").

[Vbananas]

How does the dagger throwing rogue deal with rust fog?
Also don't think Rapid Shot works that way. /link/
Are you going to be making full attacks with a single thrown knife?
Are you going to be firing the knife?

I was ninja'd with the "this is 3.5, not PF" thread. As for rust fog and other such nullifying of this tactic (anything involving magnetism, anything that obstructs vision, the enemy having blindsense, etc., etc.), I am ignoring those. This is purely an experiment/screwy idea about being a 3-foot tall mobile blender.


EDIT 2: I don't recall SA not applying to Rapid Shot, but that's how it normally works with Manyshot, and without checking all the finicky little rules for it, I'm pretty sure that rule also applies to Palm Throw (that is, it only applies once per attack roll, rather than to each weapon thrown).

I had forgotten about the multishot rule, but I am not sure how it would interact with crescent knives' multiple attack rolls.
I think they would interact as such:
A) Palm Throw does all the rolling for the four effective attacks, making it 4d3+sneak
B) Palm Throw only makes the first roll of the crescent knives the same, making it 2d3+sneak (The two daggers hitting in unison) and two instances of 1d3+sneak (the secondary cuts, rolled separately for each dagger)
C) The crescent Knife's clause overrides Palm Throw, giving all four hits separate attack rolls and thus sneak damage.

Personally, I think that it would be Option B because it is a balance of the two and it cuts a third of the silliness out of this.

[Platymus Pus]

And there's the obligatory "PF link in a 3.5 thread" guy. The 3.5 version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#rapidShot) (which is what's relevant in this thread) does not use the word fire. Making a full attack with thrown weapons requires either enough of said thrown weapons to make one attack with each weapon (ie throwing four daggers to make four attacks) or some way of auto-returning weapons so that they can be thrown multiple times in the same round (such as via the Bloodstorm Blade 4 I mentioned earlier, as well as Pathfinder's "Blinkback Belt").

Just pointing out a majority of this won't work in pathfinder since, you even brought up something from pathfinder anyway.

Pathfinder smacked the concept with a painful amount of "nerf"(common sense)
Of course it works in 3.5, just about anything does due to blatant twisting of interpretation outside of core.

Yea, sure use the feat called Rapid Shot to throw things more. Makes sense, I mean you make shots in basketball by throwing the ball right?
I mean, ignoring the fact it doesn't give the word weapon a plural even in 3.5 so it'd have to be a single dagger anyway.
I mean, if you ignore that it's in archery combat style for a ranger.
Probably because it's meant for a single weapon that uses ammunition to make full attacks, not IS the ammunition and also the weapon.
The returning property itself doesn't even allow it.
But then most everyone would dismiss this so they could use it because reasons which is the case 99% of the time.


You have to have an obscure class that functions like Xena to even make it work.
Which is the only way it's going to work unless he decided to dip in that blinkback belt from pathfinder that you suggested, but you made it clear it's 3.5 only.
Didn't you?

[AvatarVecna]

Just pointing out a majority of this won't work in pathfinder since, you even brought up something from pathfinder anyway.

Of course it works in 3.5, just about anything does due to blatant twisting of interpretation outside of core.

Yea, sure use the feat called Rapid Shot to throw things more. Makes sense, I mean you make shots in basketball by throwing the ball right?
I mean, ignoring the fact it doesn't give the word weapon a plural even in 3.5 so it'd have to be a single dagger anyway.
I mean, if you ignore that it's in archery combat style for a ranger.
Probably because it's meant for a single weapon that uses ammunition to make full attacks, not IS the ammunition and also the weapon.
The returning property itself doesn't even allow it.
But then most everyone would dismiss this so they could use it because reasons which is the case 99% of the time.


You have to have an obscure class that functions like Xena to even make it work.
Which is the only way it's going to work unless he decided to dip in that blinkback belt from pathfinder that you suggested, but you made it clear it's 3.5 only.
Didn't you?

Firstly, I busted your chops for bringing up Pathfinder because you used the PF version to try and show why his build doesn't work, when the 3.5 thing he's using works fine; I brought up Pathfinder because the 3.5 thing doesn't work for the most part, and there's a PF thing that actually helps and can be converted over. If you're going to chime in to a 3.5 thread with PF stuff, do so in a way that's actually helpful, rather than nagging somebody for using a 3.5 thing in a way that a PF thing can't be used in. As for Rapid Shot, if I go Bloodstorm Blade, I am making the full attack action with just a single weapon; that's what Bloodstorm Blade is good for, so even that stupid attempt to misinterpret RAW fails.

Secondly, I agree with you, in a sense: if you arbitrarily assign mechanical importance to fluff words that have no relevance to the mechanics at all, things work differently than if you only pay attention to the mechanics when trying to determine the mechanical effect. I mean, hey, the alternative is allowing other feats to break the "no feat with the word Shot in the title is allowed to apply to thrown weapons" rule that isn't explicitly or even implicitly present anywhere in 3.5; this includes things like Point Blank Shot (because really, how accurate can dagger throwers be at short range), Far Shot (even though it specifically calls out thrown weapons), Precise Shot and it's improved version (because being close to your allies in a fight is only for bow-wielders), and Shot on the Run (because really, the idea of throwing a weapon while running is absolutely ridiculous),. Ugh, min-maxers, am I right? Trying to apply ranged feats to ranged weapons that aren't projectile weapons just makes me sick.

Thirdly, I'm aware the returning property doesn't accomplish this, that's why I didn't mention it. Bloodstorm Blade 4 works, though...hence why it was mentioned.

[Vbananas]

Just pointing out a majority of this won't work in pathfinder since, you even brought up something from pathfinder anyway.

Of course it works in 3.5, just about anything does due to blatant twisting of interpretation outside of core.

Yea, sure use the feat called Rapid Shot to throw things more. Makes sense, I mean you make shots in basketball by throwing the ball right?
I mean, ignoring the fact it doesn't give the word weapon a plural even in 3.5 so it'd have to be a single dagger anyway.
I mean, if you ignore that it's in archery combat style for a ranger.
Probably because it's meant for a single weapon that uses ammunition to make full attacks, not IS the ammunition and also the weapon.
The returning property itself doesn't even allow it.
But then most everyone would dismiss this so they could use it because reasons which is the case 99% of the time.


You have to have an obscure class that functions like Xena to even make it work.
Which is the only way it's going to work unless he decided to dip in that blinkback belt from pathfinder that you suggested, but you made it clear it's 3.5 only.
Didn't you?

If we are headed into semantics of titles of things, lets look at Two-Weapon Fighting.The name explicitly does not include double weapons, but the text of the feat does. This is the same with Rapid Shot. The exact text, drawn from PHB, reads:
You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action (see page 143) to use this feat. This uses a very interesting set of terms. First, "one extra" means that you get a single attack. This can, in fact, be expanded by the use of Palm Throw and the Crescent Knife special ability. Second, using the words "a ranged weapon" does not specify it has to be the same ranged weapon the other attacks are made with. As it is states, you could theoretically use two separate bows to make the attacks-- The order would be as follows (I will use parentheses to separate the actions, they must be done in this order): (Full-Round attack (Fire Bow #1) (drop Bow #1 as a free action)(free action draw Bow #2 using Quick Draw)(Fire Bow #2 with rapid shot)). This, RAW, does work. As does the rest of the build I posted above, aside from the conundrum on what generates attack rolls with Palm Throw and Crescent Knife.

In response to whatever you said about the Ranger's Archery combat style and it implicitly excluding thrown weapons from all ranged feats, they do not actually get the rapid shot feat. They are treated as having the rapid shot feat. Also, if you really want to keep going down the rabit hole of meaningless wordplay, a ranger may not benefit from any of the combat styles unless that ranger is Male. The text uses the masculine pronoun "he" in the text of the abilities, which means female or other gendered Rangers cannot use these class features. Now that is a truly meaningless interpretation of rules, not unlike your own.


Putting down an idea in any obscure way you can does no-one any good. If you had helpful insight, such as the ideas of ToB material from above, I would welcome it. If you were pointing out rule violations in the system being used, I would look for ways to still complete the objective without the excessive use of items at all. The only items I have mentioned are the Crescent Knife from Dragon Magazine and a passing mention to a Belt of Dexterity, bandoleers and cargo pants. I hope you can add something helpful to this thread aside from exercising our collective typing skills.