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Droodle
2007-06-16, 12:31 PM
OK. So, we all know that whenever Wizards of the Coast publishes a build for a famous character, they tend to use an over-simplified, core only build. Let's get serious, though. Do you really think that Elminster, who meets the pre-reqs, off the top of my head, for the Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Abjurant Champion, and Eldritch Knight really would have taken 20 straight levels of Mage before branching off into the Arch-Mage PrC? I don't. But I digress. Here's my challenge. How do we build a Drizzt that Dual Wields, Rages, has the tracking feat, can calm animals, and was able to beat a Balor equipped with an artifact level magic item in single combat at level 17 (ECL 19) while equipped with only a weakly enchanted Mithril Chain Shirt, a +3 Frostbrand, and another Scimitar (which wasn't even masterwork)? Is a build that could pull this off even possible without home-brewing "Mary-Sue" into a PrC?

I have a few things I'd like to point out to guide us in the right direction. First of all, Drizzt had the tracking feat as part of his training as a drow warrior. Second of all, given the formality of his early training, I consider it highly likely that Drizzt was originally some sort of Martial Adept. Drizzt could also calm animals before he aquired his Ranger training from Montolio, and he also has never cast a spell. In my opinion, Drizzt is probably a martial adept who has taken a prestige class or 2 in order to gain his raging and his Ranger abilities. I actually doubt that Drizzt actually has any levels in either the Barbarian or Ranger base classes. Further, Drizzt may not have Rage at all. His "rages" (which actually make him harder to hit and seem to improve his mobility) might actually just be a Dervish dance, for all we know.

Matthew
2007-06-16, 12:55 PM
Hah, hah. Drizzt is not really credible to begin with, but I am really interested in this process. I have seen a few builds over the years, but I'm loathe to see a Tome of Battle version and a retroactive 'that explains it'. Can we have two build processes, one including Tome of Battle and one ignoring it?

Douglas
2007-06-16, 01:21 PM
If he has any barbarian levels, he's definitely using the whirling frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) rage variant.

Vaniel
2007-06-16, 01:22 PM
I don't know what you mean by "whenever Wizards of the Coast publishes a build for a famous character". They published books and the likes AFTER the setting was first published. The books are only fluff. If the build doesn't match the books, than it's the writers fault, not the builds fault.

Oh, and by the way, isn't Forgotten Realms 3.0? All your propositions from 3.5 didn't exist by the time they created the build, so don't blame Wizards.

And remember, they don't build famous characters from optimization, they build it from story, background, etc.

Wait, wait, wait... It's called a story, fun reading.

Though, having a 3.5 version of Drizzt (though I find the original good as is from the story if you transfer the classes to 3.5) could be interesting. I second Matthews proposition.

/Vaniel

Droodle
2007-06-16, 01:22 PM
Hah, hah. Drizzt is not really credible to begin with, but I am really interested in this process. I have seen a few builds over the years, but I'm loathe to see a Tome of Battle version and a retroactive 'that explains it'. Can we have two build processes, one including Tome of Battle and one ignoring it?Sure.....but, to be honest, I can't honestly see how a poorly equipped level 17 Dex-Based dual wielder would even be able to come close to beating a Balor wielding an Artifact of Immense power in single combat without using the Tome of Battle. To be even more honest, I doubt it'll be possible even with the Tome of Battle. When the day is done, I think we'll end up having to home-brew that "Mary-Sue" PrC in order to make a build that uses Drizzt's combat style, has access to the appropriate skills, and can actually beat a Balor while armed with crummy equipment.:smallsmile:


If he has any barbarian levels, he's definitely using the whirling frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) rage variant.Agreed. To get even more irritating, though, Drizzt also has trouble controlling his rages......which means he probably has levels of Frenzied Berserker, too.:smallconfused:

@Vaniel: I don't blame Wizards, either. I'm just pointing out that the builds they present for different characters aren't entirely accurate. Heck, back in 2.0 Drizzt was a Fighter18/Ranger 17 with Grand Mastery, the ability to rage, and a whole bunch of other illegal abilities. And lets not even talk about Danica and Cadderly from the Cleric quintet........

Draz74
2007-06-16, 01:37 PM
Agreed. To get even more irritating, though, Drizzt also has trouble controlling his rages......which means he probably has levels of Frenzied Berserker, too.:smallconfused:

Or, that could just be roleplay.

Let's see ... first, what book are you thinking of where he beat a Balor with an artifact? Because I don't remember Errtu ever actually getting his hands on Crenshinibon, though he's sure tried a lot of times ...

I think Drizzt was probably a Ranger long before he met Montolio -- he took levels in Ranger without even knowing that such an order existed, while he was still in his academy training (I think his TWF feat was a Ranger bonus feat). He probably just has a two- or three-level dip in it, though. (Ranger level 3 was the one where Montolio trained him.) Among other things, this would explain his ability to calm animals even before he met Montolio.

I'm in favor of the Dervish Dance = "hunter's rage" idea.

So ... Ranger 3 / Warblade 6 / Dervish 8 sound reasonable for ECL 19?

Talya
2007-06-16, 01:42 PM
Drizzt in his persona as "The Hunter," is not in a rage. It's a state of mind, that can last for months on end, as long s necessary to survive. Barbarian levels are utterly pointless here.

The one, single PrC absolutely required to build a "credible drizzt" is Dervish. The dervish dance fits his fighting style, and he definitely finesses dual scimitars.

I'd say, after Hunter's Blades trilogy, Drizzt is probably near level 20. Probably Ranger 1, Swashbuckler 3, Fighter 4, Dervish 10.

As much as I love ToB:Bo9S, it's utterly WRONG for drizzt.

Vaniel
2007-06-16, 01:45 PM
I liked the Cleric Quintet! :smallannoyed:

I'm not saying they are accurate, that's like saying a Fighter can beat a Wizard, or the developers actually think about what they are doing when publishing material.

I never played 2.0, so I couldn't give out my opinion on that specific fact.

/Vaniel

Droodle
2007-06-16, 01:52 PM
Let's see ... first, what book are you thinking of where he beat a Balor with an artifact? Because I don't remember Errtu ever actually getting his hands on Crenshinibon, though he's sure tried a lot of times ...Errtu took it after the Wizard that summoned him died. Errtu used Crenshinibon to burn a hole right through the hilt of his non-enchanted scimitar (and his hand, too, I think).


So ... Ranger 3 / Warblade 6 / Dervish 8 sound reasonable for ECL 19?It seems like a pretty accurate build (but the Warblade and Ranger levels should probably be closer together (or a third base class should be added into the mix) in order to avoid multi-class penalties.....but would it be enough to beat a Balor in single combat with just a non-enchanted scimitar, a +3 Frostbrand, and a Mithril Chain Shirt? That, in my opinion, is the real challenge.

Talya
2007-06-16, 01:56 PM
I liked the Cleric Quintet! :smallannoyed:

I'm not saying they are accurate, that's like saying a Fighter can beat a Wizard, or the developers actually think about what they are doing when publishing material.

I never played 2.0, so I couldn't give out my opinion on that specific fact.

/Vaniel

CQ was a fun series.

If you read Salvatore's entire FR line of books in the order they were written, you quickly see a progression and evolution as a writer, though.

While he's always made wonderful characters, fun plots, and narrated action beautifully, his character narrative started off as attrocious...the dialogue and the thoughts going through their heads (other that Drizzt's little chapter beginnings, which could be neat.) Salvatore was a terrible writer, but with enough good ideas to make his stuff entertaining anyway. But as he has written more and more, his style has greatly improved. You wouldn't know that the Hunter's Blades trilogy was written by the same guy that did Icewind Dale. He's improved a thousandfold in that time.

CQ is far enough back into his early writings that it still suffers from many of his older writing style flaws, and can be eye-rollingly stupid at times, but it's still just as entertaining as anything he has written.

Droodle
2007-06-16, 01:59 PM
As much as I love ToB:Bo9S, it's utterly WRONG for drizzt.I disagree. He trained one on one with a weapons master for years, and then trained for another 10 years at a massive martial institution that, at least according to it's name, only taught melee combat. Before ToB, I would have said his initial training was definitely as a fighter, but Martial Adept is a much better fit, given the nature of his early training.

Talya
2007-06-16, 02:06 PM
If Melee Mag'there taught them to be warblades, crusaders, or swordsages, you'd be right.

It teaches them to be fighters, period. Martial Adepts are not generic, "fit anywhere" classes. They are very very specific in their flavor, and very much on rails as far as crunch goes, apart from the maneuvers and stances themselves. (Of which Drizzt has never demonstrated any knowledge of ANY of them.) They are not the generic, every-day melee classes of Faerun. There are no written characters in any faerun book that would fit as a martial adept at all, actually. With the combat detail that most FR authors go into, you'd know if they ever switched stances, or used a martial maneuver.

Draz74
2007-06-16, 02:08 PM
Oh, and ...


I don't know what you mean by "whenever Wizards of the Coast publishes a build for a famous character". They published books and the likes AFTER the setting was first published. The books are only fluff. If the build doesn't match the books, than it's the writers fault, not the builds fault.

I think this is quite wrong. I think Elminster was in quite a few books before he was ever published as a stat block. He was definitely in a lot of books before he was published as a 3.5 stat block. Same goes for the others.


If you read Salvatore's entire FR line of books in the order they were written, you quickly see a progression and evolution as a writer, though.

While he's always made wonderful characters, fun plots, and narrated action beautifully, his character narrative started off as attrocious...the dialogue and the thoughts going through their heads (other that Drizzt's little chapter beginnings, which could be neat.) Salvatore was a terrible writer, but with enough good ideas to make his stuff entertaining anyway. But as he has written more and more, his style has greatly improved. You wouldn't know that the Hunter's Blades trilogy was written by the same guy that did Icewind Dale. He's improved a thousandfold in that time.

I agree his dialogue has improved greatly, and probably his prose style too. Unfortunately, IMHO, at the same time his plots have gotten shallower and more predictable. I don't know, maybe this is just because I'm a much harsher critic now than I was as a teenager, but I enjoy Salvatore's style less and less as the series goes on.

sleeping fishy
2007-06-16, 02:12 PM
If Melee Mag'there taught them to be warblades, crusaders, or swordsages, you'd be right.

It teaches them to be fighters, period. Martial Adepts are not generic, "fit anywhere" classes. They are very very specific in their flavor, and very much on rails as far as crunch goes, apart from the maneuvers and stances themselves. (Of which Drizzt has never demonstrated any knowledge of ANY of them.) They are not the generic, every-day melee classes of Faerun. There are no written characters in any faerun book that would fit as a martial adept at all, actually. With the combat detail that most FR authors go into, you'd know if they ever switched stances, or used a martial maneuver.

*shrug* "stance" could be "being quick", "mountain hammer" could be "i hit him hard"... 9 swords stuff can be used without being all "omg i am using my leet kung fu, MOON POWER MAKEUP!"

Talya
2007-06-16, 02:13 PM
I agree his dialogue has improved greatly, and probably his prose style too. Unfortunately, IMHO, at the same time his plots have gotten shallower and more predictable. I don't know, maybe this is just because I'm a much harsher critic now than I was as a teenager, but I enjoy Salvatore's style less and less as the series goes on.

Blame WotC for that. They made him resurrect Wulfgar, they won't let him seriously change any of his established characters or kill any of them off.

Read Promise of the Witch King & Road of the Patriarch for a better feel for it. He's only using two "iconic" characters in those books (Jarlaxle and Entreri), and the books are better for it. He kills off characters unpredictably, the plot twists are still typical, but a bit harder to predict.

Droodle
2007-06-16, 02:15 PM
It teaches them to be fighters, period. Martial Adepts are not generic, "fit anywhere" classes. They are very very specific in their flavor, and very much on rails as far as crunch goes, apart from the maneuvers and stances themselves.Actually, Salvatore describes stances and maneuvers all the time. He's constantly talking about Drizzt's footwork and frequently describes special attack patterns he employs....especially when he's fighting Entreri. Salvatore even gives Drizzt's different moves special names. The fact that the names and fluff don't perfectly match the names and fluff from the ToB probably has a lot to do with the fact that it wasn't published, yet.

sleeping fishy
2007-06-16, 02:16 PM
im getting kinda tired of entreri, actually... "look character grwoth!" but jarlaxle is awesome!!

Talya
2007-06-16, 02:18 PM
im getting kinda tired of entreri, actually... "look character grwoth!" but jarlaxle is awesome!!

Entreri's a dead end. He was only used as the straight-man serious foil to Jarlaxle's awesome and utter ridiculousness...I like the dwarf he added to the pair of 'em, Athrogate. I see interesting futures for Jarlaxle and Athrogate.

sleeping fishy
2007-06-16, 02:22 PM
rly? i thouhgt the dwarf was too, ummm, over the top, myself?? i hope he can keep it up w/ jarlaxle, though... not make him too invincible/can do anything/item for everything/etc, i mean moreso than he is... then again i guess hes no more invicnible than drizzt.

Draz74
2007-06-16, 02:28 PM
Read Promise of the Witch King & Road of the Patriarch for a better feel for it. He's only using two "iconic" characters in those books (Jarlaxle and Entreri), and the books are better for it. He kills off characters unpredictably, the plot twists are still typical, but a bit harder to predict.

I've read PotWK and half of RotP (I'll finish it soon, when I get time). Meh. They're entertaining, but my statements still stand.

Ikkitosen
2007-06-16, 02:31 PM
Errtu took it after the Wizard that summoned him died. Errtu used Crenshinibon to burn a hole right through the hilt of his non-enchanted scimitar (and his hand, too, I think).

This is wrong. Akar Kessell was Crenshinibon's wielder, and was the one that burned through Drizzt's scimitar and hand inside Cryshal Tirith. Errtu was banished by this time thanks to Drizzt in a battle in a cave on the side of Kelvin's Cairn.

Remember, Drizzt won that fight largely by choosing the battlefield - what are the rules for squeezing into spaces too small for you again? The cave was too small to allow Errtu to unfurl his wings or to dodge Drizzt's attacks. Also don't forget that Guenhywvar played a significant role in distracting/injuring Errtu.

I agree that ToB should not be used for Drizzt. A fighter/ranger/whirling frenzy barbarian/dervish would be my bet.

Fighter from Melee Magthere.

Ranger and Barbarian from the events of Exile.

More ranger from training with Montolie Debrouchee.

Dervish from the evolution of his style.

I'd like to suggest some Scout to explain why he can win so many fights by constantly running around hitting things in vital areas but the medium BAB puts me off.

Droodle
2007-06-16, 02:41 PM
Fighter from Melee Magthere.

Ranger and Barbarian from the events of Exile.

More ranger from training with Montolie Debrouchee.

Dervish from the evolution of his style.Given the emphasis on stealth, trap setting, tracking, and choosing the battlefield in the training given at Melee Magathere, Fighter isn't a very good fit, either. They don't set traps, they don't have good stealth, they don't get trap setting......If you are looking at core classes Ranger, Thug Variant Sneak attack Fighter, or (God Forbid) Feat Rogue make a lot more sense than straight Fighter for what they are trained to do.

Ikkitosen
2007-06-16, 03:21 PM
Given the emphasis on stealth, trap setting, tracking, and choosing the battlefield in the training given at Melee Magathere, Fighter isn't a very good fit, either. They don't set traps, they don't have good stealth, they don't get trap setting......If you are looking at core classes Ranger, Thug Variant Sneak attack Fighter, or (God Forbid) Feat Rogue make a lot more sense than straight Fighter for what they are trained to do.

Well, here's the thing - drow elves are sneaky because they're dextrous. They train their children from a young age, and so tend to be of higher level than other races who have an easier time of it and can thus be comparatively skilled with only cc ranks. I don't think hide and ms are class skills for melee magthere graduates.

More likely however is that they are all taught the Guerilla Warrior feat that allows them to purchase hide/ms at a 1-for-1 rate and to move easily in lighter armours (they're not as sneaky as rogues after all). Admittedly some would probably choose not to learn it (Uthegental Armgo anyone?) but I'd say it's something they're "encouraged" (in a Darwinian way) to learn.

They can't be rangers since most have no connection with animals and twf/archery are not the only styles they learn (admittedly this opens up if you include variants). Thug variant sneak attack fighter lacks the feats to represent the intense fighting styles many candidates learn. Rogues of any type lack the BAB.

Of course it's entirely possible that they can level in whatever combat class they choose, but IMO Drizzt - who's build is unlikely to be optimal since he had no idea where his life was going to lead him -took Fighter levels and bought Guerilla Warrior, Track and TWF feats. Maybe he retrained them later though when he started taking Ranger levels :smallwink:

Soooooo....Fighter 4 / WF Barb 1 (remember that when the Hunter first surfaced Drizzt couldn't control it) / Ranger 3 / Dervish X assuming you can qualify from there. Like I said, some retraining when he got to the surface is likely - Mooshie likely had different methods to Hatch'net et al.

Narmoth
2007-06-16, 03:41 PM
You have all to remember that Drizzt was made after some broken down 2nd ed rules, not the D&D 3.5 -rules.
I think Elminiser was made first with 1st edition rules in some compendium, but I'm not shure. To try to make them fit a set of rules they weren't made after can be possible, but you shouldn't complain if it doesn't work.

Turcano
2007-06-16, 03:46 PM
My hypothesized build would be Ranger 6/Tempest 5/ Dervish 7/Wildrunner 2. The ranger levels give him TWF, tempest and dervish fill the Cuisinart™ fighting style, and wildrunner gives primal scream, which fills in for rage.

Matthew
2007-06-16, 03:49 PM
Actually, both Drizzt and Elminster were originally First Edition (A)D&D Characters. Drizzt makes his first published appearance in FR5 - The Savage Frontier as a Chaotic Good Level 10 Dark Elf Ranger with a Frostbrand Scimitar +3 (+6 versus Fire Using/Dwelling Creatures) and his Onyx Panther. He has no 'notable' Attributes, which means nothing above 15 at this point, though it could be a simple oversight.

By the end of the first nine books (Homeland, Exile, Sojourn, The Crystal Shard, Stream of Silver, The Halfling's Gem, The Legacy, Starless Night, Siege of Darkness), he was republished in the Heroes Lorebook with a load of broken rules as a Level 16 Ranger and some very notable Attributes (Dexterity 20, Intelligence 17, Wisdom 17).

Draz74
2007-06-16, 10:00 PM
Of course it's entirely possible that they can level in whatever combat class they choose, but IMO Drizzt - who's build is unlikely to be optimal since he had no idea where his life was going to lead him

I think in spite of his uncertainty, Drizzt's natural curiosity (a tendancy to develop lots of skill points) and ambidexterity (a natural focus on the TWF tree) made him a better fit, right from the start, for Ranger than for any other class. I think if you approximated him as well as possible at the time he entered the Academy, the best fit you would find would be Ranger 2.

Granted, Ranger levels would not be a common choice for his classmates, even with TWF styles. But they work for Drizzt.

Then I still think he learned to be a Warblade as he kept training. Tiger Claw just makes sense in so many ways ...

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-16, 10:41 PM
Warblade works really well for Drizzt. Remember, Tome of Battle Ranger also works really well for Drizzt and is not as uncommon as you guys are making it out for a drow. Think about it.

Tracking? Check.

Skilled in hiding and moving silently? Check.

Skilled in surviving in a hostile wilderness (in this case subterranean but it still counts as its populated by creatures and generally "uncivilied") environment? Check.

Skilled at fighting certain kinds of enemies? Check.

Skilled at either two-weapon combat or ranged combat? Check.

Just because they aren't frolicking in the forest with the cuddly animals doesn't mean they aren't rangers. I remember the 3.0 PHB at least had something about Dwarven underground rangers. If the dwarves have them, why can't the drow? Or at least some subterranean variant thereof.

His "hunter" aspect, the way I see it, is a completely roleplay mechanic. There are many examples of how even fighter-types can be played entirely differently, I'd say the Hunter is just the player behind the Drizzt PC saying "all right, he's in a different mode now, he does this differently than this." If done correctly, there's no need to make it any mechanically different.

Be that as it may, I realize it can be argued that the hunter is an altered state, in which case Frenzied Berserker or a simple Rage probably works best.

If you throw Warblade into the mix (I'd say Drizzt probably has Iron Heart, Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw focus, maybe with some Stone Dragon or even White Raven Tactics at later levels) it also offers a very good way to play up the differences in his patterns from Hunter to normal Drizzt. Different maneuver and stance preparation can represent a completely changed mindset. Also remember, Warblade disciplines are not highly visible nor are they really supernatural, and there is precedence within the book regarding how Drizzt fights to further give credence to a Tome of Battle-style build. I've easily and seamlessly integrated Tome of Battle into a normal campaign setting, it served to give different fighting schools in different regions a lot more flavor than some bland feat-selection variations. Why can't the drow have their own Tome of Battle-like stye? And why couldn't Drizzt make use of it?

Matthew
2007-06-16, 10:54 PM
Yeah, you're almost perfectly right about Ranger not being uncommon.

There are some issues, though. In previous Editions it was Alignment, but now it's the Divine Power of Nature/Spell Caster/Animal Companion part. A variant Ranger I could totally see as being appropriate, but a straight Ranger has too many niggling issues for my liking. Still, maybe most Drow Rangers don't go past Level 3 anyway or else Multi Class into Fighter or some other Base Class.

Raistlin1040
2007-06-16, 11:08 PM
So we can't agree that Drizzt is a fantasy character, and thus making him statted would be as pointless as statting Superman, Achilles, or Raistlin? (Yes I know Raistlin has been statted, but it was a bad interpretation of his power.)

Matthew
2007-06-16, 11:38 PM
So we can't agree that Drizzt is a fantasy character, and thus making him statted would be as pointless as statting Superman, Achilles, or Raistlin? (Yes I know Raistlin has been statted, but it was a bad interpretation of his power.)

It's for no other purpose than fun (unless someone actually wants his Players to meet and face off against the purple eyed poser). It's the same as building any Character, except this one has more fluff.

Gavin Sage
2007-06-16, 11:42 PM
Tome of Battle has no part of Drizzt.

He's always been listed as level 16 as far as I know and I favor making every one of those level Ranger. Use the no-spell variant from Complete Warrior, and designate Guen as his animal companion. Ignore the Hunter completely, tack on extra feats if really needed and call it a day. What he did in Menzoberranzan is when you think about it, Ranger work. And so what if he doesn't stand and swing, that's just a misconception of what typical fighting classes do anyways not a reason to tack on non-sensical ToB levels which have an entirely different flavor and really should only be used in isolation.

Droodle
2007-06-17, 04:10 AM
Tome of Battle has no part of Drizzt.

He's always been listed as level 16 as far as I know and I favor making every one of those level Ranger. Use the no-spell variant from Complete Warrior, and designate Guen as his animal companion. Ignore the Hunter completely, tack on extra feats if really needed and call it a day. What he did in Menzoberranzan is when you think about it, Ranger work. And so what if he doesn't stand and swing, that's just a misconception of what typical fighting classes do anyways not a reason to tack on non-sensical ToB levels which have an entirely different flavor and really should only be used in isolation.He didn't have a favored enemy until he reached the surface, though. Also, a 16th level TWF Ranger beating a balor when improperly equipped for the fight? The point of this exercise is to actually build a Drizzt that would not only match (most of) his book fluff, and beat a Balor with one regular weapon, one enchanted weapon and halfway decent armor. I don't see a Ranger 16 pulling this one off.


Remember, Tome of Battle Ranger also works really well for Drizzt and is not as uncommon as you guys are making it out for a drow.This one probably makes the most sense, actually. It fits his skill set, and also doesn't carry any of those pesky multi-class penalties. I could almost see a Tome of Battle Ranger/Dervish posing a credible threat to a Balor......even with crappy equipment.

Talya
2007-06-17, 07:40 AM
Tome of Battle Ranger

Uhhhh....what's this? I don't remember a ranger variant in ToB.

Pauwel
2007-06-17, 08:59 AM
I think it's the one from here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=187901

Gavin Sage
2007-06-17, 09:27 AM
He didn't have a favored enemy until he reached the surface, though. Also, a 16th level TWF Ranger beating a balor when improperly equipped for the fight? The point of this exercise is to actually build a Drizzt that would not only match (most of) his book fluff, and beat a Balor with one regular weapon, one enchanted weapon and halfway decent armor. I don't see a Ranger 16 pulling this one off.

Do we know all of the Drizzt's favored enemies from the books? I see what he does in the Underdark, stealthy patrolling ahead of the party, suriving for years in the most lethal place on Faerun. All Ranger type activities. Drizzt simply wasn't concious of all his talents until Montolio pointed them out, but they were there.

Also the first time in The Crystal Shard? He got lucky, because Errtu didn't realize Icingdeath would do a host of damage to him. Drizzt rolled a nat 20 or two, and Errtu rolled 1s and 2s. It happens and the books are concious of how lucky Drizzt got. When they fought again books later Drizzt was much better equiped, and still nearly lost.

Rahdjan
2007-06-17, 11:02 AM
I personly think Drizzt is a disciple of some sort of 10th "disciple" yet unnamed. But then again that's homebrewed Mary-Sue stuff.

I know RAS named some of his manuevers. One was called Ghost Feint (or step, not sure). What were some of his other manuevers called.

Matthew
2007-06-17, 07:54 PM
I just remembered there was a 3.5 version of Drizzt printed for the Miniature Game. There's a normal version and an Epic version, if I recall correctly.

Here's Drizzt's most recently published stats:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/minigen/cards/Ar/14R.jpg

wumpus
2007-06-17, 08:28 PM
Anybody kill him in Balur's Gate 1/2? I don't think I did, but it should have been within the capabilities of a level <7 party (for BG1).

Of course, that means 2nd Ed rules, which won't go far now.

[hint to Mathew, your image is unreadable/unclickable]

Matthew
2007-06-17, 08:38 PM
Okay, fixed.

Yeah, I killed Drizzt in BG1, it was pointless. I took him on in BG2, but he kicked my arse with his buddies.

sleeping fishy
2007-06-17, 08:39 PM
heh, bgii drizzt is easy... by the time you meet him you have all the tricks... Chain Contingency -> 3 horrid wiltings on sight of enemy, have that ready for each mage, when they fire cast chain contingency again, itll go off right away. otherwise just buff up and whack away and heal... knockdown effects are good... greater malison + emotion/chaos/etc...

Matthew
2007-06-17, 08:41 PM
Well, that might be okay for a Wizard, but my guy was a Paladin! (I don't remember if I had any Wizards with me, probably just Aerie or maybe Imoen)

Anyway, I don't really want to kill him... I'm a Paladin!

sleeping fishy
2007-06-17, 08:50 PM
lol... not having wizards was your first mistake. wizards win.

Gavin Sage
2007-06-17, 08:52 PM
I personly think Drizzt is a disciple of some sort of 10th "disciple" yet unnamed. But then again that's homebrewed Mary-Sue stuff.

I know RAS named some of his manuevers. One was called Ghost Feint (or step, not sure). What were some of his other manuevers called.

Ghost Step. You take a step when your opponent can't see for a tiny moment because of their own blade being in the way. Note only large blade apply. Its nothing much and would be way overstated to have any game mechanics effect. Because D&D doesn't have developed fencing mechanics theres no way to equate it.

Matthew
2007-06-17, 08:52 PM
I like to make things hard on myself...

herrhauptmann
2007-06-17, 10:29 PM
"While he's always made wonderful characters, fun plots, and narrated action beautifully, his character narrative started off as attrocious...the dialogue and the thoughts going through their heads (other that Drizzt's little chapter beginnings, which could be neat.) Salvatore was a terrible writer, but with enough good ideas to make his stuff entertaining anyway. But as he has written more and more, his style has greatly improved. You wouldn't know that the Hunter's Blades trilogy was written by the same guy that did Icewind Dale. He's improved a thousandfold in that time."--Draz

I gotta disagree. Salvatore is still a terrible writer. He's just less bad than he was.
He describes his fights in excruciating detail, trying to get it perfect. Honestly, he interrupts what little story he does have with these ridiculous maneuvers. Everybody always does things 'perfectly' and is always correctly anticipating this or that. Plus the man needs to buy a freakin thesaurus. In 2 consecutive pages, I read 4 times each, 'fierce dwarf' 'mighty barbarian' and 'skinny goblin'. For all the money he's got, I know he can afford it.
As a reader and critic, it irritates me beyond all belief. Also, when was the last time you saw a dwarf in Salvatore's books that wasn't comic relief?

If you want good books, go read George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. Martin correctly switches between describing all the minor details, and just giving general impressions wonderfully. He is also at full liberty to kill off this character or that to advance the story. No more deus ex machina saving everybody at the last possible instant.

As far as trying to stat Drizzt at the start of Icewind Dale, you're making him too high a level I think. He nearly got killed by a Tundra Yeti on page 3. Even assuming he got surprised because he was running with his eyes closed doesn't explain him nearly dying from that when he's 16th level.

Question: After beating Errtu the second time, Drizzt lost Guen's statue in the ice, so they train a seal to fetch first an ice carving of quen, then have the seal get the real thing. Who trains the seal? Because that takes a bit of time to train a domesticated animal for, let alone one caught in the wild.

Matthew
2007-06-17, 10:34 PM
Drizzt is Level 10-ish at the time of Icewind Dale, according to (A)D&D FR5 - The Savage Frontier. That might be reasonable.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-17, 10:44 PM
Sure.....but, to be honest, I can't honestly see how a poorly equipped level 17 Dex-Based dual wielder would even be able to come close to beating a Balor wielding an Artifact of Immense power in single combat without using the Tome of Battle. To be even more honest, I doubt it'll be possible even with the Tome of Battle. When the day is done, I think we'll end up having to home-brew that "Mary-Sue" PrC in order to make a build that uses Drizzt's combat style, has access to the appropriate skills, and can actually beat a Balor while armed with crummy equipment.

Luck?

12345467890

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-17, 11:11 PM
Shoulda been more specific. Tome of Battle Ranger is a ranger that's been adapted to the Tome of Battle. I know Fax has the variant up, they lose some things (spellcasting being one of them) and gain several.

Really, full-on ranger+dervish (add initiator progression as warblade on top of that) build would suit Drizzt both thematically and build vs. performance-wise.

And I really disagree with people saying Tome of Battle has an entirely different flavor. It really doesn't, its incredibly easy to apply to any school of fighting.

Turcano
2007-06-18, 01:15 AM
Plus the man needs to buy a freakin thesaurus. In 2 consecutive pages, I read 4 times each, 'fierce dwarf' 'mighty barbarian' and 'skinny goblin'. For all the money he's got, I know he can afford it.

The Inheritance Trilogy is proof that giving a bad writer access to a thesaurus is about the worst thing you can do. It can contribute to turning a piece of mere dreck (i.e., Eragon) into a work of super-dreck that was constructed from parts of lesser dreck (i.e., Eldest).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-18, 04:11 AM
Anyway, I don't really want to kill him... I'm a Paladin!

I did not want to kill him either, but he got really pissed for some reason when we asked him what he was doing there since we already killed him in BG 1... :smalltongue:

Ikkitosen
2007-06-18, 04:19 AM
OK, a question - are we trying to create Drizzt as his career took him through the books or are we forgetting the stiry aspect adn trying to create something that mechanically can do some of the things he's done? ToB is good for the latter but not the former...

Droodle
2007-06-18, 04:54 AM
OK, a question - are we trying to create Drizzt as his career took him through the books or are we forgetting the stiry aspect adn trying to create something that mechanically can do some of the things he's done? ToB is good for the latter but not the former...I don't see any reason why ToB would be bad for the former. Drizzt was formally trained one on one by a master swordsman for 10 years before he went to Melee Magathere. By the time he got there, he already would have had levels in whatever (Martial Adept) class in which Zak'nafein may have trained him.

doliemaster
2007-06-18, 07:56 AM
I don't know if anyone has said this or if I am going to get flamed for this, but I must ask, WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO!? I mean it's a stupid emo character who has so many copiers he deserves death even if it was a good series. I just hate it that people like to make all those copies because I like the normal drows-the good ones are so stupid and now they are so common.

Ikkitosen
2007-06-18, 08:01 AM
I don't know if anyone has said this or if I am going to get flamed for this, but I must ask, WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO!? I mean it's a stupid emo character who has so many copiers he deserves death even if it was a good series. I just hate it that people like to make all those copies because I like the normal drows-the good ones are so stupid and now they are so common.

I don't think this thread is really for you if you think this way mate. Your difference of opinion doesn';t invalidate what the fans here are trying/wanting to do.

Lupus Major
2007-06-18, 08:46 AM
First: I haven't read any Salvatore Book. But a year ago on another forum where I'm active, some guys made up a Drizzt build that both fit his story and was reasonably effective. If I have time later I will look up the build, but I remember it started with 2 Fighter, 3-4 Scout, some Barbarian levels and Dervish all the rest.

Still, this build would never be able to beat a Balor, because a Balor ist CR 20. A group of 4 fully equipped level 20 characters would and should be moderately challenged by it, a group of 4 fully equipped level 17 characters would probably suffer some losses, unless they played really clever. A single level 17 char with barely any equipment? No chance, not with the rule mechanics of edition 3.5.

Person_Man
2007-06-18, 09:07 AM
Well, a Balor has 290 hit points, 35 AC, huge reach, True Sight, and some really nifty special abilities.

To take that down shouldn't be too hard for 1 correctly built 17th level Drow.

Might I suggest Ranger 15/Barbarian 2.

No, seriously.

Using the Complete Champion Lion Barbarian variant, you have Pounce.

That gives our built 7+ attacks every round. You could easily pick up more from Whirling Frenzy and/or a Speed effect and/or feat combos. So let's just say 8.

Oversized TWF (duel Scimitars), Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper. With the Charge bonus, a decent Str, and magic weapons, it'd be easy to get up to +25 to hit. His iterative attacks will be lower, but I'm not bothering to add in flat footed bonuses or half his feats. So let's just say that on average, 4ish attacks will hit. His Leap Attack damage bonus is +34 per hit, so his average damage will easily be around 50ish per hit, so that's 200ish damage. Throw in the Battle Jump feat from Unapproachable East, and now we have 400ish damage per round. All he needs now is a Ranger spell or a magic item that let's him avoid AoO for 1 round, and he's set (maybe Swift Invisibility). If he wins Initiative, there's a good chance that he wins combat. And even if he doesn't win, his Uncanny Dodge and Evasion should hopefully keep him alive for 1 round.

And that's not even adding in Favored Enemy, Flat Footed bonuses, or half of his feats. You can even pull it off without Barbarian levels by using the Lion's Charge Ranger spell.

But I would argue that a much better idea would be a Psychic Warrior, or maybe a Psion 8/Slayer 9 or something similar. Using psionic abilities you can mimic animal telepathy, summoning a panther from a statue, a powerful Rage, or all sorts of interesting combos. While a Swordsage or Warblade might be more powerful, it'd be really hard to pick up something approximating Animal Empathy or an Animal Companion using it.

Ikkitosen
2007-06-18, 10:02 AM
As mentioned earlier, a random Balor might be CR 20 but one in a cramped room who grossly underestimates his opponent isn't. Plus, Guenhywvar.

Lupus Major
2007-06-18, 11:25 AM
You forgot to take the Balor's damage reduction into account, which Drizzt has no way of bypassing.

Invisibility doesn't help against AoOs: The Balor has continuous True Seeing.

A Ranger 15/Barbarian 2 has a base will save of +5. As far as we know, Drizzt doesn't have any magical items, and has, say, a wisdom of 16, which would be quite good. Still, he would be dominated in the first round with a 58,5% chance of success. OK, not so good.

Let's say Drizzt has a con of 16, which is good to the point of being over the top (again, without any magical equipment). He has 195 max HP, average 135, and no AC to speak of, thanks to Shock Trooper and, once again, his lack of equipment. If he's raging, it becomes 224/169/even less. The Balor could probably use Power Attack 10 and still hit with every attack (of course with a 95% probability each).

That would result in an average 120 points of damage by the sword. In addition, the Balor can make 2 attacks with his whip, each of which has a good chance of partially disarming or tripping Drizzt, if the Balor chooses to try that. Or starting a grapple, which would be Drizzt's undoing. A quickened Telekinesis would help the tripping along. And even if Drizzt does not get grappled, he stands right beside the Balor, denying the use of leap attack and thus rendering him unable to deal any damage above 2-3 points, crits not included.

You based your calculations on the assumption that the Balor is both flatfooted and chargeable. I think the ambush would have to be really clever to allow that, considering he has Telepathy, True Seeing and Darkvision.

Still, I have to admit, that with an incredible amount of luck Drizzt might succeed, but only in the first round, and only thanks to the (IMO rather cheesy) Lion Barbarian. I mean, there is a reason why pounce used to be an epic feat. But in any case, if the Balor is able to act at least once, Drizzt doesn't stand a chance in 3.5.

Draz74
2007-06-18, 12:57 PM
"While he's always made wonderful characters, fun plots, and narrated action beautifully, his character narrative started off as attrocious...the dialogue and the thoughts going through their heads (other that Drizzt's little chapter beginnings, which could be neat.) Salvatore was a terrible writer, but with enough good ideas to make his stuff entertaining anyway. But as he has written more and more, his style has greatly improved. You wouldn't know that the Hunter's Blades trilogy was written by the same guy that did Icewind Dale. He's improved a thousandfold in that time."--Draz


Excuse me ... that wasn't me. You misquoted me. That's kind of rude. Please learn to use the "Quote" feature of the Forum.

Matthew
2007-06-18, 01:24 PM
Drizzt wouldn't have been 17th Level at the time of facing Errtu, more like 10th, if the book is to be believed. PersonMan has a great point about the sudden availability of Pounce through Complete Champion, which makes Two Weapon Fighting suddenly a lot more viable for Barbarian types.

Still, I wonder if the Close Quarters of that Ice cave would have allowed for a Leap Attack Charge. Hmmn. Let's take a look at the relevant passage...


"You are confused, elf," the demon said. "You have lost the way of your heritage, and now you dare to presume that you aright defeat me!" Flames sprang to life from the stone all around Errtu. "I would have killed you mercifully, with one clean stroke, out of respect for your kin. But your pride distresses me; I shall teach you to desire death! Come, feel the sting of nay fire!"
Drizzt was already nearly overwhelmed by the heat of Errtu's demon fire, and the brightness of the flames stung his sensitive eyes so that the bulk of the demon seemed only the dulled blur of a shadow. He saw the darkness extend to the demon's right and knew that Errtu had raised its terrible sword. He moved to defend, but suddenly the demon lurched to the side and roared in surprise and outrage.
Guenhwyvar had latched firmly onto its upraised arm.
The huge demon held the panther at arm's length, trying to pin the cat between its forearm and the rock wall to keep the tearing claws and teeth away from a vital area. Guenhwyvar gnawed and raked the massive arm, tearing demon-flesh and muscle.
Errtu winced away the vicious attack and determined to deal with the cat later. The demon's main concern remained the drow, for it respected the potential power of any of the dark elves. Errtu had seen too many foes fall beneath one of the dark elves' countless tricks.
The many-thonged whip lashed out at Drizzt's legs, too quickly for the drow, still reeling from the sudden burst of brightness of the flames, to deflect the blow or dodge aside. Errtu jerked the handle as the thongs tangled about the slender legs and ankles, the demon's great strength easily dropping Drizzt to his back.
Drizzt felt the stinging pain all through his legs, and he heard the rush of air pressed out of his lungs when he landed on the hard stone. He knew that he must react without delay, but the glare of the fire and Errtu's sudden strike had left him disoriented. He felt himself being dragged along the stone, felt the intensity of the heat increasing. He managed to lift his head just in time to view his tangled feet entering the demon fire. "And so I die," he stated flatly.
But his legs did not burn.
Drooling to hear the agonized screams of its helpless victim, Errtu gave a stronger tug on the whip and pulled Drizzt completely into the flames. Though he was totally immolated, the drow barely felt warmed by the fire.
And then, with a final hiss of protest, the hot flames suddenly died away.
Neither of the opponents understood what had happened, both assuming that the other had been responsible.
Errtu struck quickly again. Bringing a heavy foot down upon Drizzt's chest, it began grinding him into the stone. The drow flailed out in desperation with one weapon, but it had no effect on the otherworldly monster.
Then Drizzt swung his other scimitar, the blade he had taken from the dragon's hoard.
Hissing like water on fire, it entered Errtu's knee joint. The hilt of the weapon heated up when the blade tore into the demon's flesh, nearly burning Drizzt's hand. Then it grew icy cold, as though dousing Errtu's hot life force with a cold strength of its own. Drizzt understood then what had extinguished the fires.
The demon gaped in blank horror, then screamed in agony. Never had it felt such a sting! It leaped back and tossed about wildly, trying to escape the weapon's terrible bite, dragging Drizzt, who could not let go of the hilt. Guenhwyvar was thrown in the violence of the demon's rage, flying from the monster's arm to crash heavily into a wall.
Drizzt eyed the wound incredulously as the demon backed away. Steam poured from the hole in Errtu's knee, and the edges of the cut were iced over!
But Drizzt, too, had been weakened by the strike. In its struggle with the mighty demon, the scimitar had drawn upon its wielder's life force, pulling Drizzt into the battle with the fiery monster.
Now the drow felt as though he hadn't even the strength left to stand. But he found himself lunging forward, blade fully extended before him, as if pulled by the scimitar's hunger.
The cubby entrance was too narrow. Errtu could neither dodge nor spring away.
The scimitar found the demon's belly.
The explosive surge as the blade touched the core of Errtu's life force drained away Drizzt's strength, tossing him backward. He cracked against the stone wall and crumpled, but managed to keep himself alert enough to witness the titanic struggle still raging.
Errtu got out onto the ledge. The demon was staggering now, trying to spread its wings. But they drooped weakly. The scimitar glowed white with power as it continued its assault. The demon could not bear to grasp it and tear it free, though the embedded blade, its magic quelching the fires it had been wrought to destroy, was surely winning the conflict.
Errtu knew that it had been careless, overconfident in its ability to destroy any mortal in single combat. The demon hadn't considered the possibility of such a wicked blade; it had never even heard of a weapon with such a sting!
Steam poured from Errtu's exposed entrails and enveloped the combatants. "And so you have banished me, treacherous drow!" it spat.
Dazed, Drizzt watched in amazement as the white glow intensified and the black shadow diminished.
"A hundred years, drow!" Errtu howled. "Not such a long time for the likes of you or me!" The vapor thickened as the shadow seemed to melt away.
"A century, Drizzt Do'Urden!" came Errtu's fading cry from somewhere far away. "Look over your shoulder then! Errtu shall not be far behind!"
The vapor wafted up into the air and was gone.
The last sound Drizzt heard was the clang of the metal scimitar falling to the stone ledge.

Looks to me like the problem isn't Drizzt at all in this case, but his super duper Magic Scimitar of Errtu killing. My guess, is that this would be best modelled by some sort of Legacy Weapon...

A word on Drizzt's listed Attributes:

Does anybody else think his listed attributes do not reflect him very well?

Attributes: Strength 13, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 17, Wisdom 17, Charisma 14,

That's before any Level adjustments, I would think.

Anyway, I see Drizzt more as a:

Attributes: Strength 15, Dexterity 18,* Constitution 14, Intelligence 15, Wisdom 15, Charisma 14,

...at Level 1. *Maybe 20.

Then, I would expect his Strength and Dexterity to get boosted as he levelled up. I do think some sort of Fighter/Scout would have modelled Drizzt well up until he leaves the Underdark, but I can also see a Variant Ranger. I don't much like the idea of a 'splash' of Barbarian, but I can see why it might be desirable (especially in light of the Pounce trade off).

herrhauptmann
2007-06-18, 05:19 PM
Excuse me ... that wasn't me. You misquoted me. That's kind of rude. Please learn to use the "Quote" feature of the Forum.

Well when one computer is buggy, half your browser options end up being unavailable. Deal with it.

Droodle
2007-06-19, 05:23 AM
Then, I would expect his Strength and Dexterity to get boosted as he levelled up. I do think some sort of Fighter/Scout would have modelled Drizzt well up until he leaves the Underdark, but I can also see a Variant Ranger. I don't much like the idea of a 'splash' of Barbarian, but I can see why it might be desirable (especially in light of the Pounce trade off).Given that I find the idea of Drizzit taking a 20% experience penalty for nearly his entire career, I doubt the presence of the Barbarian splash, myself. I still think there's gonna be some Dervish in there, though. Drizzt does a lot of broken things. In order to pull them off, I'm fairly convinced that he would also have a broken build.

Talya
2007-06-19, 06:58 AM
...long very relevant quote from a book...

Exactly. Drizzt did not defeat a balor. Icingdeath was demonstrated to be far more powerful than a simple frostbrand scimitar...the sword alone defeated the balor...it utterly protected drizzt from all fire damage, and at the mere drawing of demonblood, it destroyed Errtu utterly. One doesn't need to create a drizzt capable of defeating a balor, as he's never really done it.

I'm of the opinion that 3 ranger, 3 swashbuckler, 4 fighter, and 7-10 dervish fits Drizzt as of The Hunter's Blades trilogy just perfectly. (If you pull out the spells and animal companion in favor of other abilities, you could replace levels of fighter with more ranger levels.)

Ikkitosen
2007-06-19, 08:41 AM
I'm of the opinion that 3 ranger, 3 swashbuckler, 4 fighter, and 7-10 dervish fits Drizzt as of The Hunter's Blades trilogy just perfectly. (If you pull out the spells and animal companion in favor of other abilities, you could replace levels of fighter with more ranger levels.)

So do you think the Hunter is a roleplaying device, rather than a Whirling Frenzy Rage or something like?

Talya
2007-06-19, 08:46 AM
So do you think the Hunter is a roleplaying device, rather than a Whirling Frenzy Rage or something like?


The actual game-mechanics effect of "The Hunter" do not resemble whirling frenzy rage at all. They last for up to months at a time, and are actually a suppressing of emotion, rather than using rage to augment his abilities. It also has, statisticly, no negative effects on his combat or other abilities whatsoever...in his state of mind as "The Hunter", he can use all of his abilities and skills with ease, he's not limited in any way, and it's not only used in combat. It's a survivalist state of mind, he's thinking like an animal rather than a person.

Matthew
2007-06-19, 08:48 AM
To be honest, I always thought it had more to do with (A)D&D 2.x Favoured Enemy than D&D 3.x Barbarian Rage. It could be mechanised, but I don't really see the point, it's fine as characterisation. On the other hand, Drizzt really could do with that +10' Speed, which is why I have started to think that a few levels of Scout in combination with Fighter would suit him during his time in the Underdark. I would prefer a variant Ranger, but I can't think of a suitable progression.

Talya
2007-06-19, 08:49 AM
On the other hand, Drizzt really could do with that +10' Speed


Dervish gets +15' speed.

Matthew
2007-06-19, 08:54 AM
I have to admit I'm not a big fan of the Drizzt/Dervish combination. On first glance it seems like a good fit, but the more I look at it, the less I like it. There is also a mechanical obstacle in the Dervish's ability to treat Scimitar's as Light Weapons; it appears from the description that they cannot turn this ability off, which means no Power Attack. Given the level that Drizzt enters that Prestige Class it seems like he'd have taken Oversized Two Weapon Fighting long before, in which case that whole set of Class Features is a waste. Dervish Dance is just about the only reason to go Dervish and it's not even that great...

Talya
2007-06-19, 08:57 AM
I have to admit I'm not a big fan of the Drizzt/Dervish combination. On first glance it seems like a good fit, but the more I look at it, the less I like it. There is also a mechanical obstacle in the Dervish's ability to treat Scimitar's as Light Weapons; it appears from the description that they cannot turn this ability off, which means no Power Attack. Given the level that Drizzt enters that Prestige Class it seems like he'd have taken Oversized Two Weapon Fighting long before, in which case that whole set of Class Features is a waste. Dervish Dance is just about the only reason to go Dervish and it's not even that great...

Without the ability to finesse his weapons, Drizzt simply cannot be built. It's not the dervish dance itself that is essential (although +5 to hit and damage and ability to take a full move action while making a full attack is amazing. Add to that the +3 non-typed AC bonus a dervish gets, it's really the dual-weilder's dream), but the ability to finesse his blades that is absolutely required. I think Dervish is the only way existent to let one finesse a scimitar.

You can hit dervish at level 6. I think Drizzt would have, Zaknafein obviously used the same style of fighting. Drizzt would not power attack with an oversize two-weapon fighting build...he simply wouldn't have enough attack bonus to make it worthwhile.

Matthew
2007-06-19, 11:00 PM
As written, Strength is Drizzt's main handicap and Dervish 'fixes' that, but I think Drizzt's Attributes are a poor reflection at Strength 13 anyway. I don't recall the descriptions of Drizzt doing any less than praising his Strength and other physical Attributes.

Of course, you are right, the ability to Finesse his Scimitars is a huge step up, but only if we consider his Strength to be so very relatively low.

A lot depends on how we choose to envision him. Power Attack, Cleave and Leap Attack have always struck me as a much easier way for him to get extra Attacks and Damage (which he really needs if we leave him with Strength 13 for sixteen levels).

Dervish Dance never struck me as too great because having Iterative Attacks, when all is said and done, is just not that great.

[Edit] So, I was just trying to stat Drizzt out as a Fighter/Scout; it was going quite well until I noticed that Survival doesn't appear to be on the Crystal Keep version of Scout as a Class Skill. Looks like Variant Ranger all the way to me...

[Edit] Ah, the Eye Tyrant assures me that Survival is a Class Skill for Scouts. Horray.

Droodle
2007-06-20, 05:38 AM
@Mathew: To be honest, I haven't really seen anything to convince me that Drizzt is all that good at overcoming DR. When he first came to the surface (around level 10) he hit a Red Dragon with a full attack, didn't even scratch it, and ran away. If he had power attack or leap attack, I'm thinking he would have used it. A scout build could make sense, and I'm thinking Drizzt would also take the Swift Hunter feat as soon as he gets his first ranger level. While not optimal for a TWF, it's certainly effective. Especially with a few Dervish levels in the mix.

Ikkitosen
2007-06-20, 06:07 AM
The actual game-mechanics effect of "The Hunter" do not resemble whirling frenzy rage at all. They last for up to months at a time, and are actually a suppressing of emotion, rather than using rage to augment his abilities. It also has, statisticly, no negative effects on his combat or other abilities whatsoever...in his state of mind as "The Hunter", he can use all of his abilities and skills with ease, he's not limited in any way, and it's not only used in combat. It's a survivalist state of mind, he's thinking like an animal rather than a person.

Maybe some of the Combat Focus feats would be worthwhile then - twinned with Alertness they could do a pretty good job of representing this side of his character. I don't remember the details of the WF Rage but does it have all the drawbacks of normal Rage?

IMO some kind of precision damage is absolutely vital to building a credible Drizzt - his lack of str becomes far less important that way, and it well represents his ability to out-duel just about any living creature. Maybe he's a gestalt Fighter/Ranger // Scout/Dervish!

Matthew
2007-06-20, 07:23 AM
@Mathew: To be honest, I haven't really seen anything to convince me that Drizzt is all that good at overcoming DR. When he first came to the surface (around level 10) he hit a Red Dragon with a full attack, didn't even scratch it, and ran away. If he had power attack or leap attack, I'm thinking he would have used it. A scout build could make sense, and I'm thinking Drizzt would also take the Swift Hunter feat as soon as he gets his first ranger level. While not optimal for a TWF, it's certainly effective. Especially with a few Dervish levels in the mix.
Sure, but could that not have been modelled by the Dragon's AC? I'd have to read the passage again to know. Drizzt one shots a lot of beasties over the course of the books, his and Wufgar's attack on the Giant Lair in the Crystal shard springs readily to mind. Unless he's using Sneak Attacks or Coup de Grace Actions, Drizzt must be getting Damage Bonuses from somewhere... and in additon to Favoured Enemy, in my opinion. Indeed, he often uses his panther to Flank opponents, so I reckon there's a case to be made for Power Attack.

Matthew
2007-06-23, 01:46 AM
Okay, here's what I have put together (just for fun):


Drizzt [Elf Scout 1] MS 30, AB 0(2), AC 18, HP 10,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 18, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 0(2), Reflexes 2(6), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills: Jump 4(6), Climb 4(6), Swim 4(6), Hide 4(8), Sneak 4(8), Spot 4(6), Listen 4(6), Search 4(6), Survival 4(6), Knowledge (Underdark),
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Dagger, Scimitar, Scimitar, (Using the Weapon Group variant)



Drizzt [Elf Scout 1/Fighter 1] MS 30, AB 1(3), AC 18, HP 17,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 18, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 2(4), Reflexes 2(6), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills: Jump 5(7), Climb 5(7), Swim 5(7), Hide 4(8), Sneak 4(8), Spot 4(6), Listen 4(6), Search 4(6), Survival 4(6), Knowledge (Underdark) 4(6), Handle Animal 1(3),
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Dagger, Scimitar, Scimitar,



Drizzt [Elf Scout 2/Fighter 1] MS 30, AB 2(4), AC 18, HP 24,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 18, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 2(4), Reflexes 3(7), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,
Skills: Jump 6(8), Climb 6(8), Swim 6(8), Hide 5(9), Sneak 5(9), Spot 5(7), Listen 5(7), Search 5(7), Survival 5(7), Knowledge (Underdark) 5(7), Handle Animal 1(3),
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Dagger, Scimitar, Scimitar,



Drizzt [Elf Scout 2/Fighter 2] MS 30, AB 3(5), AC 18, HP 31,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 18, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(7), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
Skills: Jump 7(9), Climb 7(9), Swim 7(9), Hide 5(9), Sneak 5(9), Spot 5(7), Listen 5(7), Search 5(7), Survival 5(7), Knowledge (Underdark) 5(7), Handle Animal 2(4),
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Dagger, Scimitar, Scimitar,



Drizzt [Elf Scout 3/Fighter 2] MS 40, AB 4(6), AC 18, HP 38,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 18, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(7), Willpower 1(3),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
Skills: Jump 8(10), Climb 8(10), Swim 8(10), Hide 6(10), Sneak 6(10), Spot 6(8), Listen 6(8), Search 6(8), Survival 6(8), Knowledge (Underdark) 6(8), Handle Animal 2(4),
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Dagger, Scimitar, Scimitar,



Drizzt [Elf Scout 3/Fighter 3] MS 40, AB 5(8), AC 18, HP 45,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 18, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(7), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 9(11), Climb 9(11), Swim 9(11), Hide 6(10), Sneak 6(10), Spot 6(8), Listen 6(8), Search 6(8), Survival 6(8), Knowledge (Underdark) 6(8), Handle Animal 3(5),
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Dagger, Scimitar, Scimitar,



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 3] MS 40, AB 6(9), AC 18, HP 52,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 18, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 4(8), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise,
Skills: Jump 10(12), Climb 10(12), Swim 10(12), Hide 7(11), Sneak 7(11), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Handle Animal 3(5),
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Dagger, Scimitar, Scimitar,



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4] MS 40, AB 7(10), AC 18, HP 59,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 18, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 4(6), Reflexes 4(8), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitars),
Skills: Jump 10(12), Climb 10(12), Swim 10(12), Hide 7(11), Sneak 7(11), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Handle Animal 7(9),
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Dagger, Scimitar, Scimitar,

At this point he has just emerged from the Underdark and is about to begin levelling up as a Ranger.

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-23, 01:55 AM
The importance of Dervish Dance in Drizzt's build is that he often moves swiftly through enemies, cutting them down. I recall someone once saying that the Dervish class exists to explain how Drizzt can do what he does, so it'd be a natural extension to give him levels in the class so that he CAN do what he does.

Matthew
2007-06-23, 01:58 AM
Yeah, yeah, so I have heard, except the official Drizzt is a Ranger 16. We were discussing that a bit earlier in the Thread. I'm not a fan of it, myself, so I won't be bothering with it in this build. To be honest, I can't really think of many moments when he dances amongst his enemies, cutting down hordes of mooks in the first six books or so. The idea here is to build a Character resembling the Drizzt who kills Giants, Trolls and other high HP types with one or two blows.

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-23, 02:34 AM
I think you need Stone Dragon or Iron Heart maneuvers for that. Both of which a Warblade can do.

Raltar
2007-06-23, 02:40 AM
official Drizzt is a Ranger 16

Except he's fighter 10/barbarian 1/ranger 5 according to the latest published stats as shown earlier in the thread.

Matthew
2007-06-23, 07:02 AM
Except he's fighter 10/barbarian 1/ranger 5 according to the latest published stats as shown earlier in the thread.
Hah, hah. Oh yeah, you would think I would know that, since I was the one who posted it. Sleep deprivation will make you think all kinds of strange things... :smalltongue: Point was he ain't no Dervish.


I think you need Stone Dragon or Iron Heart maneuvers for that. Both of which a Warblade can do.

Nah, I am avoiding Tome of Battle, as well; I think somebody was going to stat up a parallel Tome of Battle version, though.

Malek
2007-06-23, 07:05 AM
No, the point is that official statblock is so sucky that it doesn't give Drizzt justice (same for Entreri and perhaps some other famous NPCs). And seriously Dervish was made such way that it just *asks* to be used for Drizzt build.

Matthew
2007-06-26, 11:01 PM
Uh, I think I know what my own point was. The fact that Drizzt ain't statted out so good was recognised at the beginning of the Thread. I don't like Dervish, so I won't be using it.

[Edit] I was thinking that at Levels 8 and 9, this Scout/Fighter Drizzt build gets two Feats, and I think the best ones would be some combination of Dual Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack and Weapon Specialisation. I kind of wanted Weapon Specialisation to emphasise his mastery of the Scimitar, but I can see the other two being a lot more helpful in combination.

Really, I'm wondering where to go with the remaining eight levels - not Dervish or Tome of Battle for this version, though.

[Edit] So, I am reliably informed that Drizzt can retrain as a Ranger for two levels to get three new Feats between levels nine and ten. Things are looking good for this build via Two Weapon Pounce and Leap Attack. The penalties for Two Weapon Pounce are pretty stiff, but this version of Drizzt seems very close to the quick kill, surprise attack based Drizzt of Icewind Dale to me. I am wondering how many levels of Ranger to take, though. Three seems like more than enough before the Animal Companion and Spell Casting kick in.

What should be Drizzt's Favoured Enemy, though?

Droodle
2007-06-27, 06:35 AM
We already know that. Goblns.

GoblinJTHM
2007-06-27, 07:58 AM
how about drow?

Matthew
2007-06-27, 09:42 AM
Yeah, I was thinking Drow or Giants, rather than Goblins. Why would he hate Goblins after the first three books? (my memory of those books is hazy at best)

Talya
2007-06-27, 10:02 AM
how about drow?

That would be the most common favored enemy among those rare evil underdark drow who took the ranger class, as well. Drow kill other drow more than anything else...which is very fortunate for the rest of the world.

Matthew
2007-06-27, 11:12 PM
So, I am quite pleased with this Drizzt progression as a Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 4; I think it does a reasonable job of modelling his abilities as presented in the books. Has anybody any suggestions for refinements, glaring errors or future progression through to Level 16? I was thinking at least two more levels of Scout to pick up the improved Skirmish Damage and maybe another couple of levels of Fighter, but I'm open to suggestions (again, not TOB or Dervish). Also equipment by level, any ideas?



Drizzt [Elf Scout 1] MS 30, AB 0(2), AC 18, HP 10,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 19, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 0(2), Reflexes 2(6), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills: Jump 4(6), Climb 4(6), Swim 4(6), Hide 4(8), Sneak 4(8), Spot 4(6), Listen 4(6), Search 4(6), Survival 4(6), Knowledge (Underdark),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 1/Fighter 1] MS 30, AB 1(3), AC 18, HP 17,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 19, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 2(4), Reflexes 2(6), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills: Jump 5(7), Climb 5(7), Swim 5(7), Hide 4(8), Sneak 4(8), Spot 4(6), Listen 4(6), Search 4(6), Survival 4(6), Knowledge (Underdark) 4(6), Handle Animal 1(3),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 2/Fighter 1] MS 30, AB 2(4), AC 18, HP 24,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 19, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 2(4), Reflexes 3(7), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack,
Skills: Jump 6(8), Climb 6(8), Swim 6(8), Hide 5(9), Sneak 5(9), Spot 5(7), Listen 5(7), Search 5(7), Survival 5(7), Knowledge (Underdark) 5(7), Handle Animal 1(3),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 2/Fighter 2] MS 30, AB 3(5), AC 19, HP 31,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(8), Willpower 0(2),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
Skills: Jump 7(9), Climb 7(9), Swim 7(9), Hide 5(10), Sneak 5(10), Spot 5(7), Listen 5(7), Search 5(7), Survival 5(7), Knowledge (Underdark) 5(7), Handle Animal 2(4),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 3/Fighter 2] MS 40, AB 4(6), AC 19, HP 38,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(8), Willpower 1(3),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave,
Skills: Jump 8(10), Climb 8(10), Swim 8(10), Hide 6(11), Sneak 6(11), Spot 6(8), Listen 6(8), Search 6(8), Survival 6(8), Knowledge (Underdark) 6(8), Handle Animal 2(4),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 3/Fighter 3] MS 40, AB 5(8), AC 19, HP 45,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 3(8), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 9(11), Climb 9(11), Swim 9(11), Hide 6(11), Sneak 6(11), Spot 6(8), Listen 6(8), Search 6(8), Survival 6(8), Knowledge (Underdark) 6(8), Handle Animal 3(5),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 3] MS 40, AB 6(9), AC 19, HP 52,
Abilities: Strength 15, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 3(5), Reflexes 4(9), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise,
Skills: Jump 10(12), Climb 10(12), Swim 10(12), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Handle Animal 3(5),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4] MS 40, AB 7(11), AC 19, HP 59,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 4(6), Reflexes 4(9), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Handle Animal 7(9),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 1] MS 40, AB 8(12), AC 19, HP 66,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 6(8), Reflexes 6(11), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce,
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 7(9), Listen 7(9), Search 7(9), Survival 7(9), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Knowledge (Nature) 4(6), Handle Animal 7(9), Heal 4(6),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 2] MS 40, AB 9(13), AC 19, HP 72,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 7(9), Reflexes 7(12), Willpower 2(4),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack,
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 8(10), Listen 8(10), Search 8(10), Survival 8(10), Knowledge (Underdark) 7(9), Knowledge (Nature) 7(9), Handle Animal 7(9), Heal 5(7),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 3] MS 40, AB 10(14), AC 19, HP 79,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 20, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 7(9), Reflexes 7(12), Willpower 3(5),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack, Endurance,
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 8(10), Listen 8(10), Search 8(10), Survival 8(10), Knowledge (Underdark) 8(10), Knowledge (Nature) 8(10), Knowledge (Geography) 4(6) Handle Animal 8(10), Heal 6(8),



Drizzt [Elf Scout 4/Fighter 4/Ranger 4] MS 40, AB 11(15), AC 19, HP 85,
Abilities: Strength 16, Dexterity 21, Constitution 15, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14, Charisma 14,
Saves: Fortitude 7(9), Reflexes 7(12), Willpower 3(5),
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialisation (Scimitar), Track, Two Weapon Pounce, Leap Attack, Endurance, Improved Critical (Scimitar),
Skills: Jump 10(13), Climb 10(13), Swim 10(13), Hide 7(12), Sneak 7(12), Spot 8(10), Listen 8(10), Search 8(10), Survival 8(10), Knowledge (Underdark) 8(10), Knowledge (Nature) 8(10), Knowledge (Geography) 4(6) Handle Animal 8(10), Heal 6(8), [8 Skill Points to spend]

Droodle
2007-06-28, 08:44 AM
Drizzt wouldn't have been 17th Level at the time of facing Errtu, more like 10th, if the book is to be believed.Actually, when Drizzt's 2E stats were first published, the timeline hadn't gone beyond the Icewind Dale series (Salvatore spent a few years writing prequels instead of furthering the storyline). His published (2E) stats at that time placed him at Ranger 16.

Matthew
2007-06-28, 09:40 AM
Ah, but when Drizzt's stats were first published, he was Level 10. As I pointed out above, you can find them in the (A)D&D 1.x supplement The Savage Frontier; he was Level 10 in 1988.

Droodle
2007-06-28, 03:57 PM
The Heroes Guide Faerun put him at level 16. At the time it was published, Wulfgar wasn't dead yet, so we know it was compiled before Legacy was written.

Matthew
2007-06-28, 05:35 PM
Actually, The Heroes Lorebook (9525 - 1996) puts him at Ranger 16 and provides all of its sources, the last of which is Siege of Darkness (1995). I'm not familiar with The Heroes' Guide to Faerun, nor can I find mention of it in the catalogue, but it wouldn't surprise me to find a contradiction of this sort.

The timeline, as I understand it from (A)D&D is this:

Homeland (1990)
Exile (1990)
Sojourn (1991)

The Crystal Shard (1988) - [The Savage Frontier (1988), Ranger 10]
Stream of Silver (1989)
The Halfling's Gem (1990)

The Legacy (1992)
Starless Night (1993)
Siege of Darkness (1994) - [The Heroes' Lorebook (1996), Ranger 16]

So, my conclusion would be that between 1988 and 1996 Drizzt advanced from Level 10 to Level 16... almost one level per book.

Anywho, since then he seems to have never gained another level, despite another ten books or so.

Droodle
2007-06-28, 07:02 PM
Anywho, since then he seems to have never gained another level, despite another ten books or so.My guess is it's all those silly multiclassing penalties he's got to be taking with the way wizards says he's built. In all honesty, he probably should be epic by now (which, if I understand the ECL rules correctly, would mean 19 class levels or more).

Regarding the book.....I may have gotten the name wrong. Check to see if it lists a certain someone as being dead. If it doesn't, the book you mentioned is probably it and I'm just misremembering.

Matthew
2007-06-28, 08:43 PM
Hmmn. No, the Lorebook mentions Wulfgar's death in passing. They probably did publish his stats somewhere else between 1988 and 1996. Maybe, in the Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms Campaign (http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/fr/pg2.htm) or somewhere like that?