[3.5e] Build Help - Rogue/Warlock

[evnaz]

In essence I would really like to play a rogue that uses Eldritch Spear in combination with sneak attack to deal some long range magic damage and basically be a magical skill monkey
I'm more investing in primarily being a rogue so if they would synergize with another magical class better I could be persuaded to change my mind

I can use all the complete series, phb and psionics I can also use the forgotten realms campaign book
Thanks for the help in advance

[Troacctid]

Ranged sneak attacks don't work from more than 30 feet away, so Eldritch Spear won't help you much.

[evnaz]

Ranged sneak attacks don't work from more than 30 feet away, so Eldritch Spear won't help you much.

You're right but I never need to worry about range increments

[nedz]

Rogue 1 / Warlock 1 / Beguiler 1 / Warlock +2 / Unseen Seer 1 / Warlock +1 / Unseen Seer +9 - fold in 2 levels of Hellfire Warlock too.
Beguiler for Unseen Seer entry, and a few spells.
Unseen Seer advancing Warlock
Warlock 4 for Deceive Item
5d6 sneak, 7d6 Eldritch Blast, 6d6 Hellfire

I prefer Scout over Rogue for this one though Changeling Rogue works very well also.

[Andezzar]

You forgot the level of Binder to really use the Hellfire Warlock's class feature.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'd go wizard over warlock. You get a lot more utility spells that way, and attack options aren't exactly hard to come by.

I'm of the opinion that the Unseen Seer SA is a trap. You're pretty much a full caster, on par in spell progression with a sorcerer. Even if you want to do damage for whatever reason, you're usually better off doing it with spells and NOT moving within charging range of your enemies.
That and setting up ranged SA is a pain, especially considering how little you actually get out of it (because you're limited to one attack/round with spells/SLA - no full attacks).

With Hunter's Eye (via Advanced Learning) you can get enough SA to do damage with any ranged touch spell you like if you absolutely have to, but you're way more effective playing god-wizard (BFC, Buffs, Debuffs).

You can also make a decent summoner with minimal investment (basically the UA Rapid Summoning ACF) to take care of any combat, preferably while staying invisible. You don't even need Augment Summoning (though SF:Conjuration is hardly wasted and you can get it via ACF anyway) because Summon Monster shines mostly with the SLA's your summons bring to the table, and they make decent enough meatshields without it, especially if you get a Ring of Mighty Summons (CM).
Get Rashemi Elemental Summoning (UA) if allowed at level 12 and you'll have all the blasting you need just by summoning a bunch of Orglash Air Elementals, again without ever putting your squishy self into danger.

[nedz]

You forgot the level of Binder to really use the Hellfire Warlock's class feature.

No space in the build, and you can solve the problem with a wand.

Never spend xp when gp will do.

Actually: what I did forget was that Hellfire Warlock advances Warlock - so that you should be 5d6 sneak, 8d6 Eldritch Blast and 6d6 Hellfire

[Andezzar]

That and setting up ranged SA is a pain, especially considering how little you actually get out of it (because you're limited to one attack/round with spells/SLA - no full attacks).Greater Invisibility lets you do full attacks with sneak attack damage. There also is a invocation for that.


With Hunter's Eye (via Advanced Learning) you can get enough SA to do damage with any ranged touch spell you like if you absolutely have to, but you're way more effective playing god-wizard (BFC, Buffs, Debuffs).Yes, batman wizard is more powerful than pretty much anything else. But it seems the OP wants to make a sneak attacker.

@nedz: is there a non controversial way of removing the ability damage through items/gp?

[Troacctid]

@nedz: is there a non controversial way of removing the ability damage through items/gp?

Wand of Lesser Restoration. It's easy, cheap, and not remotely controversial. Give it to your familiar and there's no action cost.

[nedz]

@nedz: is there a non controversial way of removing the ability damage through items/gp?

Controversy seems to be inherent with this class, but I'm pretty sure you have to take the Con hit to use the ability. Wand of Lesser Restoration - will fix this but that's for after the combat really.

Ed: Ninja'd, also you might have a familiar.

[Andezzar]

Ah I forgot about the familiar trick. I dismissed the wand because it eats up standard actions. In this build Binder probably isn't that great. The class does however give you +2 on fort and wil saves for early entry into Ur-priest :smallamused:

[Troacctid]

You should absolutely take a familiar. Familiars are great for Warlocks, and even better for skillmonkey Warlocks (since they share your skill ranks). Especially if you upgrade to an Improved Familiar; the coure eladrin is just fantastic. At-will Faerie Fire makes sneak attacks so much easier--no more getting shut down by concealment.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Greater Invisibility lets you do full attacks with sneak attack damage. There also is a invocation for that.
You're never doing full attacks with Eldritch Blast or ranged touch spells. It has nothing to do with making the enemy flat footed, it's because you can't full attack with them.
You could get melee full attacks with Eldritch Glaive or Claws, but why would you go into melee on an Unseen Seer build?


Yes, batman wizard is more powerful than pretty much anything else. But it seems the OP wants to make a sneak attacker.

According to the OP he wants to be a primary rogue/magical skillmonkey. The idea is that rogues contribute to combat with sneak attack, but that's hardly optimal for a magical rogue, no matter what the Unseen Seers SA progression suggests. Personally i find it a lot more fitting for a mage-rogue to handle encounters with illusion and BFC than raw damage.

He's also asked if another magical class would have better synergy, and a rogue is going to get significantly more versatility and utility out of wizard casting than a few warlock invocations, while still being perfectly capable of doing damage when he needs to or otherwise contributing to combat with his magic.
The warlock adds little you couldn't get out of an archer build, except the ability to attack touch AC and a handful of more-or-less useful invocations that, while helpful in combat, generally don't do much for your actual rogue activities. And you get the same damage capability out of casting, just without SR and more variety. The at-will nature of the Warlock is generally unnecessary.

You're getting a lot more out of going Wizard/Unseen Seer than Warlock/Unseen Seer/Hellfire Warlock while losing almost nothing, that's all i'm saying.

[nedz]

This is why I hate posting Warlock builds. If you don't mention HW someone will pull you up for it, and if you do we have this kind of discussion.

HW really isn't the point of this build. Even without it it you are doing more damage than straight warlock and have more skills.

If you want face skills then you start with Changeling Rogue or you can go for a Wuxia Scout.

From level 3 you should be able to make 10' jumps from a standing start without too much trouble and so jump through those bamboo thickets blasting your foes with dark energy bolts all day.
Scout 1 / Warlock 1 / Beguiler 1 with Spider Walk as your invocation.
Jump: 6 Ranks + 2 Tumble Synergy +12 Expeditious Retreat + Strength

From level 8 you have flight, with Flyby attack available at 9th.

And you are still in time to take Quicken SLA at 12th.

Ed: the other problem with posting warlock builds is that someone will come along and say Wizard is better. :smallsigh:
Yes we all know this, but the OP asked for Warlock/Rogues.

[Troacctid]

You could get melee full attacks with Eldritch Glaive or Claws, but why would you go into melee on an Unseen Seer build?

Getting full attacks is also easy when your familiar has a Wand of Benign Transposition. You'd need Eldritch Claws to do a full sneak attack, though, since multi-hit spells like Eldritch Glaive can only deal bonus damage on the first attack.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Getting full attacks is also easy when your familiar has a Wand of Benign Transposition. You'd need Eldritch Claws to do a full sneak attack, though, since multi-hit spells like Eldritch Glaive can only deal bonus damage on the first attack.

You've missed my point. You're a squishy with a heavy casting focus. It doesn't matter how much damage you could do with SA if it means you have to move into melee range. You don't even want to be in charge range, which generally rules out SA entirely unless you spam Sniper's Shot, though that's not always possible because of space limitations.
Swift actions also get a lot more valuable as levels increase, so having to spend yours every round just to attack is bad.

Ideally you want the enemy to be completely unaware that you exist. Being invisible is great, but it's not going to help too much if you give away your position by shooting at the enemy with bright magic blasts giving away your exact position.

Being invisible and ducking in and out of cover with Flyby Attack or Mobile Spellcasting + Earth Glide/Incorporeality is better, because it means the only attacks coming your way will be readied actions, which are a lot rarer. Not giving your enemies LoS and LoE is the best defense.
But that means you're only getting a standard action to attack, and a single SA per round isn't going to do much damage even with optimization, so i'd say you're better off doing something else with that standard action that has more impact on a fight.

[LentilNinja]

A couple of ideas I've seen before for this:

Rogue 3 / Warlock 2 / Assassin 5 / Uncanny Trickster (or Daggerspell Mage, or both) 10
This build progresses your invocations and sneak attack, albeit late. Take Eldritch Glaive as an invocation for touch sneak attacks.

Rogue 3 / Warlock 2 / Assassin 1 / Unseen Seer 5 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Unseen Seer 5 / (whatever to end it)
Progresses both earlier than the above build, though I'm unsure if Assassin 1 will give two divination spells. 10/10 progression for Warlock, and +4d6 onto your SA. The Class Features might be useful for Assassin. The build can also fit in Hellfire Warlock later on.

Beguiler 4 / Warlock 1 / Eldritch Theurge 10 (Throw in HFlock somewhere)
No sneak attack, but lots of skill points for the Beguiler levels. Theurge gives 3/4 BAB for doing some melee stuff, as well as dual progression. Warlock invocations + Beguiler Illusion/Enchantment spells should cover you for Rogue like things here. Beguiler has some interesting class features too, which gives more to play with.

Hope these builds help! Personally I'd advise you stick to being a Warlock, they're a lot more fun in game than they look on paper :biggrin:

[Dgwizard]

I currently play rogue warlock. My primary attack is eldrich glaive. It can get a little tricky to move into position, but with the vexing flanker and adaptable flanker feats I can garuntee sneak attack on a medium size creature for all attacks.

Adaptable flanker lets you choose one square within weapons reach as a square that provides flanking. Choose the square directly across from you and your providing flanking for yourself.

Vexing flanker is a pre req but it also brings your flanking bonus up to 4.

And btw, these are all touch attacks

[Andezzar]

I currently play rogue warlock. My primary attack is eldrich glaive. It can get a little tricky to move into position, but with the vexing flanker and adaptable flanker feats I can garuntee sneak attack on a medium size creature for all attacks.

Adaptable flanker lets you choose one square within weapons reach as a square that provides flanking. Choose the square directly across from you and your providing flanking for yourself.

Vexing flanker is a pre req but it also brings your flanking bonus up to 4.

And btw, these are all touch attacksThis does not work with an (eldritch) glaive. Unless specified otherwise reach weapons cannot attack within the wielder's natural reach.
As a full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a reach weapon.

A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square.

[Troacctid]

You also only get sneak attack damage on the first attack (and if that attack misses, you're out of luck), because Eldritch Glaive is a weaponlike spell.

[evnaz]

So a lot of people have been commenting! thank you all very much
I see a lot of unseen seer and I think that class is a little too complex for me lol

I initially wanted sneak attack because I felt like if I focused on higher level buff and utility skills that maybe sneak attack would be able to make up for the damage which, it doesn't seem like will happen because rogue progression stops raising my caster level

So in essence I'd like to play a stealthy mage who casts from the shadows /I'd rather not use invisibility if possible last time someone in my game used it my DM basically killed him and we couldn't find him in time to save him lol/

[nedz]

OK, maybe you should look at playing a Beguiler. They are Rogue like class with a bunch of Illusion/Enchantment/Utility spells - just don't expect to do any damage.

[Troacctid]

Beguiler basically does everything you want out of the box. A very good stealth mage in a can.