Changing how 0th level spells work

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

So most 0th level spells are fun, but either you feel you have to take a certain few, or that you have to ration them. And frankly, they are OFTEN (yes, I know some are very powerful) so weak, that they dont deserve the pain of "oh, do I dry my party, or do I let us drop a temperature band but maybe cast resistance later, or light, or flare, no, I didnt prepare flare. And I need a slot for detect magic, but that meant I couldnt take create water". And so on. Then you are past using them and you NEVER USE THEM AGAIN... usually.

So, there are 3 options.


You dont have to prepare them, but are still restricted in how often you can cast them
You still have to prepare them, but can cast them at will.
Make them 5e cantrips AND remove the need to prepare them.



The issue with option 1 is you flood your players with too many options and they freeze up. It also doesnt solve some problems, for example dusk blades already know all their 0th level spells by level 3.

Option 2 seems like a good idea. It forces choice. You cant take all the spells and use them whenever, you still have to specialize. But then what do you do about things like at will resistance. From old posts, half the people think its fine, while the other half think its broken as hell.

Option 3 is easiest to implement. But seems the most broken, and would need some spells to be shifted to 1st level, which then negates the ease of implementation.

A system in which I ran this would be low op. Keep that in mind.

Thoughts?

[Hunter Noventa]

Pathfinder basically does option 2. To take your example of Resistance, a +1 to all saves that lasts a minute isn't worth too much. It doesn't stack with a Cloak of Resistance, and it still is a standard action to cast, actions that could be better used doing almost anything else.

The tricky ones to watch out for are the 0th level spells that do damage, but even then, a Wizard being able to throw around 1d3 acid or cold damage at will is a lot more fun and flavorful than a wizard pulling out a crossbow when they need to conserve spells, it's never going to be a staple at anything but the lowest of levels.

[DarkSoul]

I'm using option 2 in my 3.5 game. The only one that's any concern whatsoever is Cure Minor Wounds, from the cleric. All you need to do with that is assume that they'll be at full hit points for every encounter. Resistance isn't a concern, in my opinion. So far no one's cast it even once. Even if they do it's saving them from buying a cloak of resistance +1, at the cost of an action in combat.

[Troacctid]

You realize 5e doesn't require you to prepare cantrips because you have limited cantrips known, right? It's clearly less powerful than the system that lets you change them every day. I mean, the individual cantrips themselves are more powerful, but you get the idea.

[nedz]

Spontaneous casters don't have this problem - so your rule can only apply to prepared casters. Most of these are Tier 1, why are you boosting the power of Tier 1 classes - even trivially ?

[Alex12]

Seconding Option 2 because it's what Pathfinder does. Note that PF does NOT have Cure/Inflict Minor Wounds, and instead has Stabilize and Bleed, which instead just stabilizes someone in the negatives or starts them bleeding out again, respectively.

[LordOfCain]

Hi all

So most 0th level spells are fun, but either you feel you have to take a certain few, or that you have to ration them. And frankly, they are OFTEN (yes, I know some are very powerful) so weak, that they dont deserve the pain of "oh, do I dry my party, or do I let us drop a temperature band but maybe cast resistance later, or light, or flare, no, I didnt prepare flare. And I need a slot for detect magic, but that meant I couldnt take create water". And so on. Then you are past using them and you NEVER USE THEM AGAIN... usually.

So, there are 3 options.


You dont have to prepare them, but are still restricted in how often you can cast them
You still have to prepare them, but can cast them at will.
Make them 5e cantrips AND remove the need to prepare them.



The issue with option 1 is you flood your players with too many options and they freeze up. It also doesnt solve some problems, for example dusk blades already know all their 0th level spells by level 3.

Option 2 seems like a good idea. It forces choice. You cant take all the spells and use them whenever, you still have to specialize. But then what do you do about things like at will resistance. From old posts, half the people think its fine, while the other half think its broken as hell.

Option 3 is easiest to implement. But seems the most broken, and would need some spells to be shifted to 1st level, which then negates the ease of implementation.

A system in which I ran this would be low op. Keep that in mind.

Thoughts?
Um... What about Versatile Spellcaster?

[paranoidbox]

Um... What about Versatile Spellcaster?

Using option 2? Infinite spells.

[DarkSoul]

Using option 2? Infinite spells.Since we're firmly in house rules territory right now... no. Just, no.

They're a weird half-SLA that still requires components but doesn't use spell slots. There are no slots to combine to get infinite level 1 spells. Just pick the 4 0-level abilities you want to have at will today.

[Deophaun]

Um... What about Versatile Spellcaster?
You don't have to give infinite 0-level spell slots. Instead, rule that cantrips do not require spell-slots to cast. Meanwhile, since metamagic feats call out that affected spells use spell slots, you don't have to worry about free Quickened-Fell-Drained-Twinned-Repeating-Chained acid splashes.