Optimizing Monsters

[BiPolar]

This will be my 2nd session DMing (first went really well and I'm absolutely loving it), and my players have asked for a high-risk, high-reward campaign. I've put together a pretty good storyline and encounter system, but I'm wondering how hard do I play the monsters. I've got some options that would be devastating if they work and I don't want to totally screw them, but I also don't want it to be a cake-walk. If I hold back a bit, it might be still be very challenging, but they could also quickly win.

When starting your battle encounters, do you start with the monsters strongest attacks (I could potentially hit the entire party with Banishment. Unlikely everyone would fail, but it would take out a least a couple until concentration was broken.) To keep things interesting for those banished, was going to introduce some monsters on the new plane to keep them busy :D.

[Rhaegar]

This will be my 2nd session DMing (first went really well and I'm absolutely loving it), and my players have asked for a high-risk, high-reward campaign. I've put together a pretty good storyline and encounter system, but I'm wondering how hard do I play the monsters. I've got some options that would be devastating if they work and I don't want to totally screw them, but I also don't want it to be a cake-walk. If I hold back a bit, it might be still be very challenging, but they could also quickly win.

When starting your battle encounters, do you start with the monsters strongest attacks (I could potentially hit the entire party with Banishment. Unlikely everyone would fail, but it would take out a least a couple until concentration was broken.) To keep things interesting for those banished, was going to introduce some monsters on the new plane to keep them busy :D.

If you want to make things challenging design a few encounters that they are not indented to defeat, but run away from.

You shouldn't have an encounter that has a good likelihood that someone is going to die regardless of what happens. They should at least have a chance to run away at the start. Granted if they take to long to decide to run away, someone might end up dead. Of course in D&D death doesn't have to be permanent either.

I would play a monster like the monster wants to win, unless you feel like it would be totally encounter breaking. You don't want to KO everyone in the party in one round.

[BiPolar]

They're not really a runaway type of group, but doesn't mean it can't be a taste of what they're going to end up fighting :) Thanks for the idea!

[MaxWilson]

They're not really a runaway type of group, but doesn't mean it can't be a taste of what they're going to end up fighting :) Thanks for the idea!

I'd say you don't know your limits until you've pushed them. PCs in 5E are tougher than you think, and there's no chance for heroism without risk of disaster. Especially with a new party, err on the side of deadly. They'll get used to it.

[Igfig]

Push them a bit in terms of overall difficulty, sure, but overall you should play most of your monsters as pretty stupid, tactics-wise. There are two reasons for this:

It makes it a lot easier to tweak the encounter difficulty downwards later. If a PC gets dropped to 0 or otherwise made vulnerable, a 'stupid' monster might leave them alone to focus on a 'bigger threat', giving the PC a chance to survive.
It lets you play actual genius-level Int 25 monsters noticeably smarter than the rest, without the problems usually inherent in trying to play someone smarter than yourself. Next to the usual stupid monster tactics, even a moderately thoughtful plan can look very clever indeed.

[Laserlight]

Plan for a failure mode which is something other than "and then you all die. Wasn't that fun? Roll new characters."

For instance, if the fight is on a rope bridge over a river, perhaps "you drop to zero HP" means "you fall into the river and are swept away. You wake up on a mud flat, some distance downstream..."

[RickAllison]

Ooooo, if you have a BBEG who is an illusionist, you can set-up killer encounters that are really just convincing illusions! Once someone has died, you can reduce the difficulty of the Investigation check to see through it to the point where the dead people (who can start to see through it because they're not actually dead but they think they should be) can realize its all an illusion. You get to create devastatingly difficult encounters and it plays out well!

[BiPolar]

There are a lot of variables going into this fight, but it's basically based on surprise. They don't know that the person they are dealing with is actually an arcanaloth(INT 20) hidden by Alter Self. Once he starts the encounter, the surprise round is him casting banishment on the entire party. This is where the variables come in. I don't know if everyone will be there. But basically, if he banishes the majority of the party and it's just him and one or two PCs, then he will be the one to disappear and Dimension Door to an unknown location and back to alter self. Impossible to find, rest of team comes back. Everyone has a WTF moment and understand the level of the foe they are dealing with.

If the majority makes their banishment saves, I'll continue the encounter and wish them all the best :)

It's 1 level 9 and 4 level 8 PCs...if everyone is there. Party could easily split before hand.

[MaxWilson]

Push them a bit in terms of overall difficulty, sure, but overall you should play most of your monsters as pretty stupid, tactics-wise. There are two reasons for this:

It makes it a lot easier to tweak the encounter difficulty downwards later. If a PC gets dropped to 0 or otherwise made vulnerable, a 'stupid' monster might leave them alone to focus on a 'bigger threat', giving the PC a chance to survive.
It lets you play actual genius-level Int 25 monsters noticeably smarter than the rest, without the problems usually inherent in trying to play someone smarter than yourself. Next to the usual stupid monster tactics, even a moderately thoughtful plan can look very clever indeed.


I'm not so sure about theh first bullet (it's actually easier to tweak difficulty downwards if the monsters are smart, because you have lots of room to make them not-so-smart) but I endorse your conclusion: the game is more fun when it is possible for the players to out-think the monsters. The DM's job is not to play the monsters to the utmost of his ability. He's supposed to play them to the utmost of their own ability, and most of that time that ability shouldn't be very high in order for the game to be fun.

Simple example: if the Sharpshooter PC starts shooting arrows, and the Zombie Bear drops Prone in order to impose disadvantage on the attack roll, you're DMing it wrong. From a mechanical standpoint that is a pretty good move, but zombies aren't that smart.


There are a lot of variables going into this fight, but it's basically based on surprise. They don't know that the person they are dealing with is actually an arcanaloth(INT 20) hidden by Alter Self. Once he starts the encounter, the surprise round is him casting banishment on the entire party. This is where the variables come in. I don't know if everyone will be there. But basically, if he banishes the majority of the party and it's just him and one or two PCs, then he will be the one to disappear and Dimension Door to an unknown location and back to alter self. Impossible to find, rest of team comes back. Everyone has a WTF moment and understand the level of the foe they are dealing with.

If the majority makes their banishment saves, I'll continue the encounter and wish them all the best :)

It's 1 level 9 and 4 level 8 PCs...if everyone is there. Party could easily split before hand.

Can I give you an opinion? The above encounter doesn't have enough foreshadowing and will frustrate your players. They're less likely to "understand the level of the foe they are dealing with" and more likely to just feel like the DM is being a jerk, unless you have somehow foreshadowed to the players that illusions are on the table and that random NPCs can actually be high-level monsters who, for some reason, are attacking the party out of the blue.

One way to foreshadow this could be to just mention that this random NPC is remarkably insouciant about being around this party of battle-hardened PCs. If someone has high Insight, tell them his body language screams "confident and totally unafraid of you." If someone has high Arcana, give them another clue--e.g. the NPC rummages in his pockets for a second and absent-mindedly mutters a curse word which the Arcana PC can recognize as demonic in origin.

If the PCs respond appropriately, the enemy may not get a surprise round, or they could even impose one on the Arcanaloth.

If you're concerned that not making the PCs auto-surprised might make the fight too easy, then you could e.g. make the NPC they're dealing with actually be a projected image instead of the actual Arcanaloth. (Perhaps the actual Arcanaloth is upstairs.) If the PCs launch a surprise attack on what looks like a confident but non-hostile NPC, now they have earned whatever he chooses to do to them in retaliation, and they can't complain when Random NPC #2 turns out to actual be "Dagbert the Arcanaloth whom you antagonized previously by attacking him without provocation in his own home."

[BiPolar]

I'm not so sure about theh first bullet (it's actually easier to tweak difficulty downwards if the monsters are smart, because you have lots of room to make them not-so-smart) but I endorse your conclusion: the game is more fun when it is possible for the players to out-think the monsters. The DM's job is not to play the monsters to the utmost of his ability. He's supposed to play them to the utmost of their own ability, and most of that time that ability shouldn't be very high in order for the game to be fun.

Simple example: if the Sharpshooter PC starts shooting arrows, and the Zombie Bear drops Prone in order to impose disadvantage on the attack roll, you're DMing it wrong. From a mechanical standpoint that is a pretty good move, but zombies aren't that smart.

Definitely understand that, but in this case, I've got an INT 20 monster who is actively going to surprise the PCs. He's going to be smart enough to try and remove as many players as possible from the combat.

[gfishfunk]

When starting your battle encounters, do you start with the monsters strongest attacks (I could potentially hit the entire party with Banishment. Unlikely everyone would fail, but it would take out a least a couple until concentration was broken.) To keep things interesting for those banished, was going to introduce some monsters on the new plane to keep them busy :D.

The problem with a lot of monster nova attacks is that the damage is so high that it may kill a weaker member. I would error on starting out with something that seems powerful (because of auxiliary effects, like knock down or knock back, or maybe a light status effect) that lets the players know that the monster means business. Save anything that may end up outright killing someone to mid fight, so that the players can be more actively managing the battle and have a chance to manage the damage.

[BiPolar]

The problem with a lot of monster nova attacks is that the damage is so high that it may kill a weaker member. I would error on starting out with something that seems powerful (because of auxiliary effects, like knock down or knock back, or maybe a light status effect) that lets the players know that the monster means business. Save anything that may end up outright killing someone to mid fight, so that the players can be more actively managing the battle and have a chance to manage the damage.

My plan was to attempt to banish as many of them as possible (Banishment). My other options are high level chain lighting/fireball effects. I could do Fear, but that isn't really quite as menacing (just giving them disadvantage on attack rolls.)

[MaxWilson]

My plan was to attempt to banish as many of them as possible (Banishment). My other options are high level chain lighting/fireball effects. I could do Fear, but that isn't really quite as menacing (just giving them disadvantage on attack rolls.)

It's not just disadvantage on attack rolls, it's the inability to close to melee range. The usual way to exploit Fear involves having better ranged attacks than the other party. I agree though that that is unlikely for a lone NPC/monster against a party of PCs--PCs usually have strength of numbers and therefore the advantage in a ranged duel.

I edited my response above to give additional thoughts about the Arcanaloth scenario, but the long and the short of it is that I believe your players will not enjoy being surprise-attacked by someone whom they have no reason to suspect is hostile. It might or might not be "realistic" (although, why would an Arcanaloth just randomly attack a bunch of adventurers anyway? doesn't sound so realistic) but it will feel like a cheap metagaming trick. You need to give them at least a potential chance to detect what is going to happen in advance via skill checks, by reading his body language.

[BiPolar]

It's not just disadvantage on attack rolls, it's the inability to close to melee range. The usual way to exploit Fear involves having better ranged attacks than the other party. I agree though that that is unlikely for a lone NPC/monster against a party of PCs--PCs usually have strength of numbers and therefore the advantage in a ranged duel.

I edited my response above to give additional thoughts about the Arcanaloth scenario, but the long and the short of it is that I believe your players will not enjoy being surprise-attacked by someone whom they have no reason to suspect is hostile. It might or might not be "realistic" (although, why would an Arcanaloth just randomly attack a bunch of adventurers anyway? doesn't sound so realistic) but it will feel like a cheap metagaming trick. You need to give them at least a potential chance to detect what is going to happen in advance via skill checks, by reading his body language.

THey immediately previous encounters will have been several shape shifters (Gray and Death Slaad). During the discussion, I'm going to give clues before I surprise. Biggest is that the person they are dealing with (jeweller...party has several jewels to sell and possibly want to buy), is dressed to the nines and is very fancy looking. The arcanaloth is going to give some very basic descriptive information about Yugoloths (who they will be encountering more of later), finishing up with the description of the Arcanaloth (well groomed, clothing itself in fine robes) and have him smiling broadly as he says this. I'll give them a beat to roll initiative, but if they don't, then the surprise begins.

At this point, they'll have encountered a gray slaad who shape shifted, a death slaad who surprised them (he was pretending to be a halfling priest they found in the temple with the slaad and has stayed out of every fight since they found him) during a long rest and possibly another death slaad depending on how they play another situation (if they are magnanimous and helpful, it's not a death slaad. If they are greedy and rude, he is :) ). So shapeshifting and distrust has been seeded, it's a matter of whether or not they want to do checks to see if someone is who they say they are.