The whip needs love(Updated)

[OzDragon]

I have been trying to make a character with the whip as a main hand weapon. Other than paladin(smite) or Fighter/rogue(sneak attack) I see no reason for this as a weapon at all.

So I thought I would make a feat to try to address this issue. Here is what I came up with.


Whip mastery.

+1 Dexterity
When you successfully hit with this weapon you may make a trip/disarm attempt as a bonus action.
You may make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check in place of a Strength (Athletics) check when attempting to disarm or trip a creature with the is weapon

The whip counts as a tool.

Thoughts Changes Love it hate it let me know.

[Douche]

Considering that trip attack is a battlemaster maneuver and is a limited resource, I don't think you should be able to use trip attack unlimited times per day using a feat (that also adds to your dex)

So either remove the +1 dex, or make the trip attack use a pseudo-superiority die mechanic.

The flavor or it is pretty awesome though. I love the idea of using a whip for control, rather than just a measly d4 damage or a sneak attack with reach (why not just be crossbow rogue at that point?)

[OzDragon]

Considering that trip attack is a battlemaster maneuver and is a limited resource, I don't think you should be able to use trip attack unlimited times per day using a feat (that also adds to your dex)

So either remove the +1 dex, or make the trip attack use a pseudo-superiority die mechanic.

It's not limited to the battlemaster and he also gets d8 extra damage. Druids in wolf form can do it every round without a feat. It's also taking your bonus action to do it.

[JellyPooga]

I don't see why Whip needs any love.

1) A whip is not a weapon. It shouldn't be doing much damage. It doesn't, so we're cool and groovy.

2) A whip is long and is useful mostly for keeping people at bay. It has the Reach property, which covers the "long" thing. Now, here's the trick; you can shove or trip in place of an attack and the Reach property means you can do this from 10ft away! Hooray! You can keep people at bay with it. Sorted. Should we be able to deal damage to a person whilst doing so? Consider the physical mechanics of what's occurring when tripping or "shoving" someone with a whip...probably not.

3) Someone very specialised in using a Whip might be able to do more with it. Someone like a Fighter or Rogue, perhaps?

So do we need a Feat to make it "better", when it should be a niche weapons at best? In my opinion, no.

If you want to get the most out of a Whip build, try the following; Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue

Barbarian: Rage gives you bonus damage and Advantage on Strength checks.
Fighter: Battlemaster gives you all sorts of thematically appropriate maneuvers. Fighting style gives you +2 damage.
Rogue: Gives you Expertise in Athletics and Sneak Attack damage.

A Barbarian 1/Fighter 3/Rogue 1 deals 1d4+1d6+4+Str mod damage on a hit (average of around 13 damage) and has the option of applying a Maneuver to disarm or trip or whatever to that hit for an extra 1d8 damage. Alternatively, he can trip his opponent using a godlike Athletics modifier with Advantage from Rage...from 10ft away. Sounds pretty decent to me.

[gfishfunk]

My battlemaster fighter / rogue tank used a whip exclusively. Its fantastic as it is, but you have to realize it has a very specific niche, in that it is the only finesse reach weapon, thus able to sneak attack at reach while using melee.

That being said: I would adjust two things.

1. Instead of "use twice your proficiency bonus" say "you are considered to have expertise with Athletics, even if you do not (Refer to rogue class skill expertise) when making a trip or disarm attack.

2. Add the prerequisite 'Proficiency in Whips.' OR instead of allowing the trip / disarm attempts as bonus actions, also provide whip proficiency with the basic feat.

[MaxWilson]

Considering that trip attack is a battlemaster maneuver and is a limited resource, I don't think you should be able to use trip attack unlimited times per day using a feat (that also adds to your dex)

Shield Master and Polearm Master both already grant this, effectively. A classic maneuver for either of those styles is to push an enemy prone and then hit him while he's down. (In the case of Shield Master, you use your bonus action on a Shove; in the case of Polearm Master, you use your regular attack to Shove and your bonus action d4 attack to attack. But either way you're effectively trading your bonus action for a Shove.)

The advantage of the battlemaster attack is:

(1) It doesn't cost you an attack;
(2) It can work on opportunity attacks (like a lightweight Sentinel);
(3) It has slightly different mechanics (save instead of ability check opposed roll);
(4) It grants some bonus damage.

If, looking at that list of advantages, you still think the Battlemaster maneuver might be kind of weak when the baseline fighter can still do everything he does almost as well, well, you're right. There's a reason why Eldritch Knights are the best kind of fighter. IMO.

[Petrocorus]

(1) It doesn't cost you an attack;
(2) It can work on opportunity attacks (like a lightweight Sentinel);

I'm sorry, what do you call a lightweight Sentinel? Someone using Sentinel without a pole-arm or great weapon?


(3) It has slightly different mechanics (save instead of ability check opposed roll);

I wonder, isn't the target more likely to make the save than to win an opposed roll?

[cobaltstarfire]

2) A whip is long and is useful mostly for keeping people at bay. It has the Reach property, which covers the "long" thing. Now, here's the trick; you can shove or trip in place of an attack and the Reach property means you can do this from 10ft away! Hooray! You can keep people at bay with it. Sorted. Should we be able to deal damage to a person whilst doing so? Consider the physical mechanics of what's occurring when tripping or "shoving" someone with a whip...probably not.


I never even considered that! It also never occurred to me that you can shove and trip people with a polearm from distance. But you're right, the rules for shoving/knocking prone just say that you use a melee attack action, and they must be in your reach.

Though I suspect a lot of DM's might not allow it since it doesn't feel intuitive that you can "shove" someone with a whip...though I bet they'd still allow knocking prone. (I guess one could argue that the "shove" is someone flinching away involuntarily)


With that in mind what if the proposed feat allowed the use of dexterity to trip/disarm, and maybe to do it as a bonus action rather than part of the attack action?

[OzDragon]

and maybe to do it as a bonus action rather than part of the attack action?


As written it uses a bonus action.

[OzDragon]

1) A whip is not a weapon. It shouldn't be doing much damage. It doesn't, so we're cool and groovy.

Consider the physical mechanics of what's occurring when tripping or "shoving" someone with a whip...probably not.

So do we need a Feat to make it "better", when it should be a niche weapons at best? In my opinion, no.

So lets look at the definition of "weapon" since you can't suspend belief for a fantasy game.

Weapon
something (such as a gun, knife, club, or bomb) that is used for fighting or attacking someone or for defending yourself when someone is attacking you
something (such as a skill, idea, or tool) that is used to win a contest or achieve something.

By this definition an idea is a weapon. Hmm does an idea do damage?

I never said anything about a whip "shoving anyone/thing. But I can see it used to trip or disarm as stated in my feat.

You said niche the PHB says it's a weapon. And you opinion is noted although I don't share it. That's what makes life fun.

[JellyPooga]

So lets look at the definition of "weapon" since you can't suspend belief for a fantasy game.

I respect your right to disagree, but I'm not saying a whip can't be used offensively; I even pointed out a few ways in which it can be used so, using the rules as written. That's my point; I don't think the whip needs a Feat to be useful in the game...the rules already provide for it being useful in a cinematic and totally unrealistic manner! RAW, you can even get some decent damage out of it, even though in real life it takes strapping someone down and wailing on them repeatedly to actually do any real damage with one. I'm all about the suspension of disbelief!

[cobaltstarfire]

As written it uses a bonus action.

As written last I read it, it requires you to hit something first and then use a bonus action if you want to trip or disarm. I'm suggesting that to make it so one can only do it as a bonus action/offhand attack independent of the attack action.

And as pointed out, the RAW does already allow you to basically trip people with a whip, though you must use a strength check to do it.

Which is why I suggested making the feat so it allows one to make people prone with a Dex check (or a str check, whichever they prefer).

[Douche]

Shield Master and Polearm Master both already grant this, effectively. A classic maneuver for either of those styles is to push an enemy prone and then hit him while he's down. (In the case of Shield Master, you use your bonus action on a Shove; in the case of Polearm Master, you use your regular attack to Shove and your bonus action d4 attack to attack. But either way you're effectively trading your bonus action for a Shove.)

The advantage of the battlemaster attack is:

(1) It doesn't cost you an attack;
(2) It can work on opportunity attacks (like a lightweight Sentinel);
(3) It has slightly different mechanics (save instead of ability check opposed roll);
(4) It grants some bonus damage.

If, looking at that list of advantages, you still think the Battlemaster maneuver might be kind of weak when the baseline fighter can still do everything he does almost as well, well, you're right. There's a reason why Eldritch Knights are the best kind of fighter. IMO.

Oh, I guess I read it too fast... Thought that the trip/disarm was part of the attack action. Didn't see the bonus action part.

[JakOfAllTirades]

The Spell Sniper feat extends the range of the Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade cantrips to 10 feet, allowing their use with a whip.

Does that sound like fun or what?

[OzDragon]

As written last I read it, it requires you to hit something first and then use a bonus action if you want to trip or disarm. I'm suggesting that to make it so one can only do it as a bonus action/offhand attack independent of the attack action.

And as pointed out, the RAW does already allow you to basically trip people with a whip, though you must use a strength check to do it.

Which is why I suggested making the feat so it allows one to make people prone with a Dex check (or a str check, whichever they prefer).

Are you suggesting that you can use the trip/disarm as a bonus action at will? That seams a bit powerful which is why I attached it to a hit.

The dex check is interesting though. I like it.

[cobaltstarfire]

Nah, more like it can only be used as an offhand attack or something like that. Though on further rumination what you originally had for hit, then bonus action to trip/disarm seems fine too.


It'd be interesting if you could "push" people with it by having them flinch 5 feet away, but I suppose that may be more like an intimidate check of some sort.

[krugaan]

I dunno, it seems unrealistic to allow a whip to hit and deal damage, then optionally trip as a bonus action. To trip you'd have to entangle their leg(s), which probably wouldn't do any actual damage.

As a gameplay mechanic, I don't really see any issues, though.

Instead of bonus action trip, how about an optional ranged special grapple instead? One with a simple dex(acro)/str(ath) check to escape instead of an opposed roll?

[Spectre9000]

Personally, I'd like to see Whips have a grappling/pull effect. Go Indiana Jones with it (which would also include your disarm/knock prone, read trip).

[Spectre9000]

I dunno, it seems unrealistic to allow a whip to hit and deal damage, then optionally trip as a bonus action. To trip you'd have to entangle their leg(s), which probably wouldn't do any actual damage.

As a gameplay mechanic, I don't really see any issues, though.

Instead of bonus action trip, how about an optional ranged special grapple instead? One with a simple dex(acro)/str(ath) check to escape instead of an opposed roll?

Whips hurt like hell. They don't do so much against armor, but against flesh, it's pretty OP. They're also pretty good at disarming through various ways, and can easily be used to pull a leg out from under someone to knock them prone.

[krugaan]

Whips hurt like hell. They don't do so much against armor, but against flesh, it's pretty OP. They're also pretty good at disarming through various ways, and can easily be used to pull a leg out from under someone to knock them prone.

right, but making only one attack that *also* trips seems a little unrealistic in this context.

im not arguing that whips don't hurt, or can't disarm / prone / entangle. Im just arguing they probably can't do both at the same time. Im no expert on whips, though.

Maybe if they were barbed or something?

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't see why Whip needs any love.

1) A whip is not a weapon. It shouldn't be doing much damage. It doesn't, so we're cool and groovy.

2) A whip is long and is useful mostly for keeping people at bay. It has the Reach property, which covers the "long" thing. Now, here's the trick; you can shove or trip in place of an attack and the Reach property means you can do this from 10ft away! Hooray! You can keep people at bay with it. Sorted. Should we be able to deal damage to a person whilst doing so? Consider the physical mechanics of what's occurring when tripping or "shoving" someone with a whip...probably not.

3) Someone very specialised in using a Whip might be able to do more with it. Someone like a Fighter or Rogue, perhaps?

So do we need a Feat to make it "better", when it should be a niche weapons at best? In my opinion, no.

Not only is it a reach weapon, it's a one-handed reach finesse weapon! The whip is already quite powerful for being just a piece of rope.

[krugaan]

Not only is it a reach weapon, it's a one-handed reach finesse weapon! The whip is already quite powerful for being just a piece of rope.

hah, I think you'd be very disappointed trying to whip someone with a piece of rope.

[JellyPooga]

hah, I think you'd be very disappointed trying to whip someone with a piece of rope.

Ever heard of a cat-o'-nine-tails? Guess what it's made of and why it has nine "tails".

[krugaan]

Ever heard of a cat-o'-nine-tails? Guess what it's made of and why it has nine "tails".

leather, usually?

Although when vogon said "piece of rope" I took that to mean untapered rope.

[JellyPooga]

leather, usually?

Although when vogon said "piece of rope" I took that to mean untapered rope.

A "cat" was traditionally made from a cut piece of nine-strand rope that had been unbraided to a certain length with the still-braided section being used as the handle. Dip the unbraided end in brine and you have yourself a cat-o'-nine. It originated as a make-shift lash, not a purpose built tool. Later, it became a traditional punishment tool and purpose made ones came about, but you could always make one using any old piece of rope.

The more you know (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_o%27_nine_tails).

[krugaan]

A "cat" was traditionally made from a cut piece of nine-strand rope that had been unbraided to a certain length with the still-braided section being used as the handle. Dip the unbraided end in brine and you have yourself a cat-o'-nine. It originated as a make-shift lash, not a purpose built tool. Later, it became a traditional punishment tool and purpose made ones came about, but you could always make one using any old piece of rope.

The more you know (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_o%27_nine_tails).

hah, didn't know about the origins of it.

Although I have to say, it seems rather impossible to trip someone with it. At least in the stereotypical "whip" way.

Edit: "Normally 250–500 lashes would kill a man, as infections would spread."

That... uh ... a pretty low damage per hit there.

[JellyPooga]

hah, didn't know about the origins of it.

Although I have to say, it seems rather impossible to trip someone with it. At least in the stereotypical "whip" way.

Edit: "Normally 250–500 lashes would kill a man, as infections would spread."

That... uh ... a pretty low damage per hit there.

Strictly speaking a Cat isn't what the Whip is in 5ed D&D. The weapon Whip is more akin to a bullwhip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip), which would usually be made of leather and be significantly longer and has a different function.

Where a Cat is used for flogging a bound prisoner, a bullwhip is used to control cattle and other livestock. Neither is used to cause lasting or crippling damage, but rather a large amount of pain. The whole Indiana Jones whip-as-a-hand thing is very cinematic and should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

Performing a "Shove" action to drive someone back 5ft by lashing either a Cat or Bullwhip in someones face is a far more realistic use than either disarm or trip.

[krugaan]

Strictly speaking a Cat isn't what the Whip is in 5ed D&D. The weapon Whip is more akin to a bullwhip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullwhip), which would usually be made of leather and be significantly longer and has a different function.

Where a Cat is used for flogging a bound prisoner, a bullwhip is used to control cattle and other livestock. Neither is used to cause lasting or crippling damage, but rather a large amount of pain. The whole Indiana Jones whip-as-a-hand thing is very cinematic and should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

Performing a "Shove" action to drive someone back 5ft by lashing either a Cat or Bullwhip in someones face is a far more realistic use than either disarm or trip.

Well, the point of the comment was that a trying to whip someone with a rope would produce very disappointing results.

I would partly agree with the shove thing, but disarm and trip are both plausible and therefore possible, at least in my book.

Indiana Jones never actually uses the whip to attack people, afaik.

[RickAllison]

hah, didn't know about the origins of it.

Although I have to say, it seems rather impossible to trip someone with it. At least in the stereotypical "whip" way.

Edit: "Normally 250–500 lashes would kill a man, as infections would spread."

That... uh ... a pretty low damage per hit there.

Keep in mind that they were used because they inflicted maximum pain with relatively little injury. Of course, those are not the whips under discussion, that would be more like this:

http://www.cowwhips.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/6ft-%E2%80%9CYoung-Indy%E2%80%9D-Bullwhip1.jpg

Especially with a nice metal barb on the end, these can do massive damage, tearing through flesh. To get a sense of why it hurts so much, consider whip-cracking: (Scientific American Source (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/true-cause-of-whips-crack/).)

For those who don't want to read that, the crack of a whip is because of supersonic speeds (ouch), but not of the whip itself. It comes from a loop of air caught in the lash getting supersonic. The actual lash? More like Mach 2. The damage from the whip comes from the fact that a massive amount of energy gets concentrted at high speeds on a relatively small area.

[krugaan]

Keep in mind that they were used because they inflicted maximum pain with relatively little injury. Of course, those are not the whips under discussion, that would be more like this:

http://www.cowwhips.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/6ft-%E2%80%9CYoung-Indy%E2%80%9D-Bullwhip1.jpg

Especially with a nice metal barb on the end, these can do massive damage, tearing through flesh. To get a sense of why it hurts so much, consider whip-cracking: (Scientific American Source (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/true-cause-of-whips-crack/).)

For those who don't want to read that, the crack of a whip is because of supersonic speeds (ouch), but not of the whip itself. It comes from a loop of air caught in the lash getting supersonic. The actual lash? More like Mach 2. The damage from the whip comes from the fact that a massive amount of energy gets concentrted at high speeds on a relatively small area.

Yeah, except you have to swing the whip differently depending on what you want to do. I doubt a whip with a metal bit at the end can crack effectively unless the bit is really light. And a rope whip isn't really stiff / heavy enough to do anything even if you can get it to crack.

[JellyPooga]

Well, the point of the comment was that a trying to whip someone with a rope would produce very disappointing results.

Oh yeah, I get it. Essentially, though, any whip could be considered a "rope"...they are functionally made in largely the same way; by braiding strands of a flexible material such as hemp, flax or leather to form a longer, tougher length.

I brought up the Cat because it's literally a piece of rope that's been unbraided and could be considered a type of whip.


I would partly agree with the shove thing, but disarm and trip are both plausible and therefore possible, at least in my book.

Indiana Jones never actually uses the whip to attack people, afaik.

I think Indy disarmed one guy of his gun once, IIRC, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure he never lashed someone with it. I was talking about the whole "wrap it around a beam and swing on it" or "grab an item with your whip" style of use you see in the movies, though. As far as I'm aware, that's a bit fictional.

If you really want to do that sort of stuff, use a hook (grappling for swinging, smaller types for grabbing); it's what they're designed for! As for tripping and disarming, I've never heard of a historical account of it (though that doesn't mean there isn't one); a net would be a better example of something capable of it, I think.

As I mentioned earlier, though, I'm more than willing to suspend disbelief to allow trips and disarms with a whip in D&D, because...well, Indy!

As for Whips causing damage; there are reports of particularly nasty floggings with Cats where victims were left stripped to the bone. The larger, longer styles of whips have been reported to be capable of killing large animals (wolves, caribou, etc.), so it's not outside the realms of possibility, for sure!

[RickAllison]

Yeah, except you have to swing the whip differently depending on what you want to do. I doubt a whip with a metal bit at the end can crack effectively unless the bit is really light. And a rope whip isn't really stiff / heavy enough to do anything even if you can get it to crack.

Indeed you whip it differently depending on the purpose. I'm not even discussing rope whips anymore (as I stated, those cat-o'-nine tails are used because they don't damage tissue effectively). The leather whips, however, still reach incredibly fast speeds. It was more for the point that the tip of the whip has an extreme pressure that it imparts that explains why it still deals very effective damage.

You are right that the metal bit would interfere with cracking, but not because of speed. The speed of the lash will have a slight reduction, but the largest part is the disruption of the sonic loop. Still leaves a very dangerous and painful weapon...

[Spectre9000]

I think Indy disarmed one guy of his gun once, IIRC, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure he never lashed someone with it. I was talking about the whole "wrap it around a beam and swing on it" or "grab an item with your whip" style of use you see in the movies, though. As far as I'm aware, that's a bit fictional.

You missed the scene when he whipped the guy around the neck, and inadvertently got it caught in a fan basically hanging the guy.

[krugaan]

You are right that the metal bit would interfere with cracking, but not because of speed. The speed of the lash will have a slight reduction, but the largest part is the disruption of the sonic loop. Still leaves a very dangerous and painful weapon...

You sure? I think any object moving the speed of sound would crack (or make some kind of boom). This is getting to physics intensive for my brain.

[cobaltstarfire]

The real world weapons and armor thread may be a good place to ask more about whippyness, there's a ton of very knowledgeable people in there and they love to talk!

[JellyPooga]

You missed the scene when he whipped the guy around the neck, and inadvertently got it caught in a fan basically hanging the guy.

Oh snap! I forgot that one! I've suddenly got a hankering to go watch the trilogy again (yes...the trilogy...just like Alien and Lethal Weapon, they only made three).

[RickAllison]

You sure? I think any object moving the speed of sound would crack (or make some kind of boom). This is getting to physics intensive for my brain.

The issue with sonic cracks is that a body moving at supersonic speeds doesn't create it, the air it displaces creates the sound. As I understand it, with an airplane, the air generally has to move fast enough that the two are functionally equivalent. The same presumably does not hold with the lash. If I understand it right, it is only once the end gets toward Mach 2 that the loop of air it displaces goes supersonic.

I will post more in an edit, but just so I don't get ninja'd again...

EDIT: Sound is generated by displacement of air through vibrations, as a backdrop for the next points.
Generally, when an airplane breaks the sound barrier, it is displacing air in front of the body. During the trans-sonic portion (arguably the most dangerous, as the aircraft is subjected to fantastic stresses), the air begins to pile up in front of the wing as the aircraft travels faster than the the air can move around it. This is the so-called sound barrier, where the air does not want to displace and threatens to tear off wings; this build-up is why more conventional airplanes and heavily-armed aircraft like the Harrier II can't break beyond, the stress from the air starts to exert such high moment that it tears off the wings. Some aircraft with more streamlined profiles get around the sonic boom by creating a surface that encourages air to flow more readily across it, cutting the build-up of the air barrier. This ties into the next part.
I'm less familiar with this, but I think I can extend a conjecture. Despite the tip of the lash reaching supersonic speeds, the slim profile prevents the air from building up and generating the sonic boom. When the lash gets around Mach 2, the air is unable to displace fast enough to permit travel as normal, so the loop of air generates the sonic boom as it gains supersonic speed.

[EvanescentHero]

Oh snap! I forgot that one! I've suddenly got a hankering to go watch the trilogy again (yes...the trilogy...just like Alien and Lethal Weapon, they only made three).

I was under the impression that they only made two Alien movies!

[Laserlight]

As for Whips causing damage; there are reports of particularly nasty floggings with Cats where victims were left stripped to the bone. The larger, longer styles of whips have been reported to be capable of killing large animals (wolves, caribou, etc.), so it's not outside the realms of possibility, for sure!

My understanding is that the Russian knout (or possibly the extended version, the Great Knout) could kill a man in one blow, either through breaking the back or making a deep cut. But if they were useful against armored foes, I've never read about it.

[krugaan]

My understanding is that the Russian knout (or possibly the extended version, the Great Knout) could kill a man in one blow, either through breaking the back or making a deep cut. But if they were useful against armored foes, I've never read about it.

whaaaaaaaaat, no way. I demand references!

it is difficult to imagine any whiplike weapon being able to kill a man in one hit. Well, whip like as it used like a whip, as opposed to some "whip" weapons like the cat-o-nine tails or the scourge, which are really used more like flails.

[Laserlight]

whaaaaaaaaat, no way. I demand references!

Here's a start. (http://oldnews.aadl.org/node/132164)

[krugaan]

Here's a start. (http://oldnews.aadl.org/node/132164)

ah, its weighted. again, more like a flail than a whip.

[RickAllison]

whaaaaaaaaat, no way. I demand references!

it is difficult to imagine any whiplike weapon being able to kill a man in one hit. Well, whip like as it used like a whip, as opposed to some "whip" weapons like the cat-o-nine tails or the scourge, which are really used more like flails.

I don't know about one-hit kills with whips, but they would be more effective than your tails or scourge. If you swing both a whip and the flail at the same rate, the whip head is travelling faster (same angular velocity, one travels maybe a 2-ft radius while the other is looking at at somewhere like 12-ft, which is a factor of 6) and the force is being applied across a tiny, singular lash rather than several larger ones. This is why effective flails use the larger, heavier heads. Since a whip would have such higher velocity, the mass aspect of energy needs to be increased to accomplish the same effect.

[krugaan]

Right, but a metal head is much harder, denser, and exponentially heavier. I get your point though.

[RickAllison]

Right, but a metal head is much harder, denser, and exponentially heavier. I get your point though.

Exponentially heavier, but for good reason. If the linear velocity is 6 times that of the flail, that means it has 36 times the energy if they were of equal mass. In reality, the speed difference would be much, much larger due to the nature of the bullwhip. A conservative estimate of the whip is 750 mph at its tip and a generous estimate for the flail is 75 mph. That would put the kinetic energy from velocity at 100X, but the flail is likely well over 100X more massive. The kicker then is not the force, but the pressure. Flails often incorporated ridges and such to focus the energy, because that is one of the greatest strengths of a true whip: all that supersonic energy is delivered over a minuscule area.

[Hairfish]

It would probably be best to model a whip feat on Shield Master:

When you make an attack with a whip on your turn, you can use the whip to make a shove attack against target within reach as a bonus action. If the optional Disarm rule from the DMG is being used, a disarm attempt may be made with the bonus action instead of the shove attack.
Shove attacks made with finesse weapons may use DEX(Acrobatics) instead of STR(Athletics).
You may treat a whip as though it was a 10' length of hemp rope with a grappling hook on the end for purposes of climbing or acrobatic stunts, as adjudicated by the DM. Attaching or detaching the whip may be done with a standard action or bonus action, so it is possible to do both in one turn.

As far as a whip's "realistic" utility as a damaging weapon, it's worth noting that Hit Points are meant to be an abstraction of the ability to avoid lethal damage, not to survive repeated killing blows.

[georgie_leech]

Exponentially heavier, but for good reason. If the linear velocity is 6 times that of the flail, that means it has 36 times the energy if they were of equal mass. In reality, the speed difference would be much, much larger due to the nature of the bullwhip. A conservative estimate of the whip is 750 mph at its tip and a generous estimate for the flail is 75 mph. That would put the kinetic energy from velocity at 100X, but the flail is likely well over 100X more massive. The kicker then is not the force, but the pressure. Flails often incorporated ridges and such to focus the energy, because that is one of the greatest strengths of a true whip: all that supersonic energy is delivered over a minuscule area.

That assumes that 100% of the energy is delivered on impact. It isn't, as you can tell from the whip's... recoil, for lack of a better word, and the sonic boom you've been talking about. The mere fact that you can hear the sound of a whip crack means that it isn't perfectly focused. With whips, there's a heck of a lot of energy wasted on not hurting things, whereas steel's considerably more resistant to compression structure and density is quite efficient at that. Sure, ridges help if you're trying to punch through armor, but otherwise spiked, ridged, or even a simple ball are all quite effective. For that matter, a solid.blow can still break bones in spite of armor, and a good swing at the head won't care much about helmets and snap the neck anyway.

[RickAllison]

That assumes that 100% of the energy is delivered on impact. It isn't, as you can tell from the whip's... recoil, for lack of a better word, and the sonic boom you've been talking about. The mere fact that you can hear the sound of a whip crack means that it isn't perfectly focused. With whips, there's a heck of a lot of energy wasted on not hurting things, whereas steel's considerably more resistant to compression structure and density is quite efficient at that. Sure, ridges help if you're trying to punch through armor, but otherwise spiked, ridged, or even a simple ball are all quite effective. For that matter, a solid.blow can still break bones in spite of armor, and a good swing at the head won't care much about helmets and snap the neck anyway.

Naturally, the calculations were merely to express that there is a significant reason why whips function as lethal weapons. Getting into a full analysis of the physics of the whip and the flail sounds plain awful right now (I have to study for a differential equations exam), but it establishes a basis in reality. As for the whip cracking, that is actually a fine art that professionals put many hours into honing. The reason is because creating the perfect crack involves creating a pocket of air that is accelerated to supersonic velocities rapidly. If one was intending to use it as a weapon, the dexterous and subtle movements necessary to get a whip crack are unnecessary and actually harmful to the damage potential.

Basically, the technique for cracking a bullwhip and for cracking a skull with one have significant differences.

[georgie_leech]

Naturally, the calculations were merely to express that there is a significant reason why whips function as lethal weapons. Getting into a full analysis of the physics of the whip and the flail sounds plain awful right now (I have to study for a differential equations exam), but it establishes a basis in reality. As for the whip cracking, that is actually a fine art that professionals put many hours into honing. The reason is because creating the perfect crack involves creating a pocket of air that is accelerated to supersonic velocities rapidly. If one was intending to use it as a weapon, the dexterous and subtle movements necessary to get a whip crack are unnecessary and actually harmful to the damage potential.

Basically, the technique for cracking a bullwhip and for cracking a skull with one have significant differences.

Indeed, though the fact remains that leather or hemp or whatever rope like substance is used for the whip is generally less efficient than good old fashioned iron or steel (especially against anything that isn't particularly fleshy, which in D&D includes things like anyone in heavy armor, bug like creatures, most of the Undead, most golems, earth elementals, dragons...). In other words, for the amount of effort you spent getting good at killing things with a whip, you'd be even better at killing things with some other weapon that you trained with instead. You can work around this by adding weighted tips, but at the point it becomes a semantic discussion about when the weight is considered heavy enough for it to no longer be a whip and instead be a very long flail. If you want to use a rope analogue to bash someone's skull in, you'd generally be better served picking up a length of chain. Doesn't even need to be the ridiculous spiked varieties D&D is so fond of.

[RickAllison]

Indeed, though the fact remains that leather or hemp or whatever rope like substance is used for the whip is generally less efficient than good old fashioned iron or steel (especially against anything that isn't particularly fleshy, which in D&D includes things like anyone in heavy armor, bug like creatures, most of the Undead, most golems, earth elementals, dragons...). In other words, for the amount of effort you spent getting good at killing things with a whip, you'd be even better at killing things with some other weapon that you trained with instead. You can work around this by adding weighted tips, but at the point it becomes a semantic discussion about when the weight is considered heavy enough for it to no longer be a whip and instead be a very long flail. If you want to use a rope analogue to bash someone's skull in, you'd generally be better served picking up a length of chain. Doesn't even need to be the ridiculous spiked varieties D&D is so fond of.

Why do you think whips are only 1d4! However, I could see a properly enchanted whip being a terrifying thing. I really like the idea of a magic whip that plays off the whole sonic boom by having charges to activate Thunderwave as a bonus action whenever you make an attack with it. Could be a really fun and flavorful magic item!

[Spectre9000]

Why do you think whips are only 1d4! However, I could see a properly enchanted whip being a terrifying thing. I really like the idea of a magic whip that plays off the whole sonic boom by having charges to activate Thunderwave as a bonus action whenever you make an attack with it. Could be a really fun and flavorful magic item!

+3 Whip of Thunderclap. *shudders*

[Waffle_Iron]

Somewhat related, after reading this thread, I really want to design a sraight classed barbarian, with tavern brawler for improvised weapons, and a 15' length of chain with a grapneling hook on both ends. Maybe a two level dip in rogue for expertise in grappling, and cunning action.

15' reach trip, grapple, and reel them in. Put a foot on them to hold them down, lather, rinse, repeat. Goliath, so that you can drag them around with you wherever you go.

:)

[Foxhound438]

"whips need love"
-finesse
-reach
-one hand free for shield/second whip/whatever else
-ability to make "wh-PSH" sound when you attack

that's pretty balanced. You average 2 under a rapier, but honestly reach makes up for it to an extent. Go rogue for sneaky whip. go for spell sniper+SCAG cantrips for janky stuff. go battlemaster for legit exactly the things you suggested. Go paladin and smite whit a whip. you can 2wf with them if you have the feat.

[Spectre9000]

"whips need love"
-finesse
-reach
-one hand free for shield/second whip/whatever else
-ability to make "wh-PSH" sound when you attack

that's pretty balanced. You average 2 under a rapier, but honestly reach makes up for it to an extent. Go rogue for sneaky whip. go for spell sniper+SCAG cantrips for janky stuff. go battlemaster for legit exactly the things you suggested. Go paladin and smite whit a whip. you can 2wf with them if you have the feat.

Two-Weapon Fighting Whip Barbarian. "Imma Whip you so hard! RAWR!" Bonus for Village People references just cause.

[JellyPooga]

-ability to make "wh-PSH" sound when you attack

Definitely a balancing factor! :smallbiggrin:

Cool factor trumps rules in every case when playing an RPG.

[RickAllison]

Definitely a balancing factor! :smallbiggrin:

Cool factor trumps rules in every case when playing an RPG.

"I ram his horse with mine!"
"You could just shove him off. Or use a spell. That just seems ineffici-"
"I ram his horse with mine!"

[krugaan]

Definitely a balancing factor! :smallbiggrin:

Cool factor trumps rules in every case when playing an RPG.

Dungeons and dragons is just one big imaginary Rube Goldberg machine... for rubes.

[Foxhound438]

Definitely a balancing factor! :smallbiggrin:

Cool factor trumps rules in every case when playing an RPG.

honestly the best part because i secretly want to be a dominatrix.

[MBControl]

So, a lot of good points, I couldn't read them all, nor will I get into a debate about the whip as a weapon. I will say that Jellypooga simply is NOT an Indiana Jones fan.

I would like to suggest a flavor choice. Instead of a disarm/shove BA, I would do a disarm/pull BA.

I don't think that the nature of a whip would be a good pushing weapon, however wrap around a leg/arm/neck and pull into a second dagger attack would be cool.

[cobaltstarfire]

So, a lot of good points, I couldn't read them all, nor will I get into a debate about the whip as a weapon. I will say that Jellypooga simply is NOT an Indiana Jones fan.

I would like to suggest a flavor choice. Instead of a disarm/shove BA, I would do a disarm/pull BA.

I don't think that the nature of a whip would be a good pushing weapon, however wrap around a leg/arm/neck and pull into a second dagger attack would be cool.

No one is talking about the whip literally pushing anyone. It is a known to be used to make people and animals move away, the noise combined with the threat of future pain is simply very intimidating and part of what a whip is used for.

[krugaan]

No one is talking about the whip literally pushing anyone. It is a known to be used to make people and animals move away, the noise combined with the threat of future pain is simply very intimidating and part of what a whip is used for.

you need to whip first to cause the pain, then the pain is associated with the whip sound. You can't just whip out of the blue. Well, usually.

[cobaltstarfire]

you need to whip first to cause the pain, then the pain is associated with the whip sound. You can't just whip out of the blue. Well, usually.


So you're telling me if someone cracked a whip in your general direction you wouldn't flinch or try to move away from it?

[krugaan]

So you're telling me if someone cracked a whip in your general direction you wouldn't flinch or try to move away from it?

If I had a weapon in hand, or armor, no I wouldn't.

Edit: well, I still might flinch, but that's hardly moving someone 5 feet against their will. Actually, I don't even think you would do that. 5 feet is like leaping backwards.

[georgie_leech]

No one is talking about the whip literally pushing anyone. It is a known to be used to make people and animals move away, the noise combined with the threat of future pain is simply very intimidating and part of what a whip is used for.

I think the idea might have been as an improvised trip, as Shoving enemies 'down' into the ground is a common way to impose the Prone condition.

[krugaan]

I think the idea might have been as an improvised trip, as Shoving enemies 'down' into the ground is a common way to impose the Prone condition.

no, we're talking about the 5' shove back... aren't we? it's not so much a shove maneuver as it is a "scare" maneuver, though.

[Laserlight]

If someone swinging a battleax at me doesn't stop me, then someone swinging a whip won't either.

[Hairfish]

If someone swinging a battleax at me doesn't stop me, then someone swinging a whip won't either.

They can use a shove attack to drive you back with an axe, too. HP damage isn't necessarily actual injury, but also represents a loss of battlefield endurance. By sacrificing an attempt to wear you down, they can instead try forcing you into a position they (presumably) find advantageous.

[georgie_leech]

no, we're talking about the 5' shove back... aren't we? it's not so much a shove maneuver as it is a "scare" maneuver, though.

Same maneuver. One of the common melee optimization tips for sword and boarders is to grab Shield Master so that when you declare an attack, you can use the bonus action Shove to push them Prone and so grant yourself advantage on your attacks (along with any other melee characters that attack before they can stand). Presumably this Shove would be used at the end instead, to inhibit movement without giving yourself Disadvantage when attacking from a distance. If such an ability were included in a hypothetical feat, I could see it having language to the effect of 'unlike a normal Shove, the creature can be pulled up to 5 feet closer to you rather than pushed 5 feet away.'

[krugaan]

Same maneuver. One of the common melee optimization tips for sword and boarders is to grab Shield Master so that when you declare an attack, you can use the bonus action Shove to push them Prone and so grant yourself advantage on your attacks (along with any other melee characters that attack before they can stand). Presumably this Shove would be used at the end instead, to inhibit movement without giving yourself Disadvantage when attacking from a distance. If such an ability were included in a hypothetical feat, I could see it having language to the effect of 'unlike a normal Shove, the creature can be pulled up to 5 feet closer to you rather than pushed 5 feet away.'

yes, but we're not talking about a shove (trip), we're talking about the normal shove back 5'. except at range. with a whip.

and that makes no sense unless you posit some sort of flinch mechanic.

Which doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion either.

Game mechanics wise it would be really fun though.

[krugaan]

They can use a shove attack to drive you back with an axe, too. HP damage isn't necessarily actual injury, but also represents a loss of battlefield endurance. By sacrificing an attempt to wear you down, they can instead try forcing you into a position they (presumably) find advantageous.

i have no problems with someone holding whip shoving me five feet back when im standing next to him.

I do have issues with someone snapping a whip in my face (dealing no damage by the way) from 10' away and making me leap backwards 5'.

Unless that was some kind of whip of level draining or something.

[Hairfish]

i have no problems with someone holding whip shoving me ten feet.

I do have issues with someone snapping a whip in my face (dealing no damage by the way) from 10' away and making me leap backwards 5'.

Unless that was some kind of whip of level draining or something.

But someone swinging an axe in your face (dealing no damage, by the way) and making you leap backwards 5' doesn't give you any issues, got it.

A shove attack doesn't necessarily mean you don't hit the person. It doesn't even mean that it doesn't cause pain. What it doesn't do is reduce the abstraction of ability to continue fighting that is quantified as HP.

Combat in D&D has a lot more room for narrative flow than you seem to realize. An attack roll isn't necessarily a representation of a single swing/thrust. A miss just means that whatever the attacker did was ineffective at reducing the defender's ability to continue fighting.

If you want to claim that the abstraction of a shove attack can only manifest in the game world in the way that you specify and that you should therefore be immune to it, then you're just rules-lawyering.

[krugaan]

But someone swinging an axe in your face (dealing no damage, by the way) and making you leap backwards 5' doesn't give you any issues, got it.

To be honest, I never visualize a shove as "intimidation with a weapon", although I suppose it could be true.


A shove attack doesn't necessarily mean you don't hit the person. It doesn't even mean that it doesn't cause pain. What it doesn't do is reduce the abstraction of ability to continue fighting that is quantified as HP.

Ah, that's very true. It probably does necessitate physical contact with the person though, else why couldn't you do the same thing with an arrow? Particularly when shove is a str check, and whip is a reach finesse weapon.


Combat in D&D has a lot more room for narrative flow than you seem to realize. An attack roll isn't necessarily a representation of a single swing/thrust. A miss just means that whatever the attacker did was ineffective at reducing the defender's ability to continue fighting.

I actually wasn't thinking about this, but it doesn't seem to have much bearing here.


If you want to claim that the abstraction of a shove attack can only manifest in the game world in the way that you specify and that you should therefore be immune to it, then you're just rules-lawyering.

I totally don't get why you are saying this at all.


On a side note, RAW, can you actually trip and shove creatures with a reach weapon from more than 5' away? The language of "reach" seems to a little murky on the subject. "Reach" as a weapon property says your reach is extended 5' for attacks and OA's, fine. Shove is a special attack ... I assume gets the properties of reach as well? Does that work with grapple? I'm speaking about RAW, it seems mechanically fine gaemplay wise.


Also: whoops, my post says "ten" feet instead of "five" feet in the first line. correcting it.

[cobaltstarfire]

That's one of the reasons I originally felt it might really be dependent on the DM.

I think it's one of those rules where they had to errata certain things? I don't think you can grapple someone with a reach weapon, because it states you have to use at least one hand to grapple someone.

Though I suppose a DM could rule that a weapon or other object can be used to hook and pull someone towards you, at which point you then grab them with your hand.


I'm totally down with shoving and tripping people with reach weapons though, it reads to me like as long as they are within your reach you can do it. No specification of grabbing them or using a part of your body to do it, just that it has to be a melee attack.

[MBControl]

Yeah, I think we may be getting bogged down in terms. Lets just say that "shove" is a stand in phrase used a modified fear mechanic. Cobaltstarfire is on the right track. It's a DM's call.

Having a bull whip crack in front of your face is quite dramatic, and could be frightening. In fact, since a whip crack is actually a mini sonic boom, breaking the sound barrier, it is possible to rupture an eardrum with the sound alone.

So, if your group decides to have fun with whip and it's abilities, go for it.

[JellyPooga]

I will say that Jellypooga simply is NOT an Indiana Jones fan.

Do you really think I'd engage in an argument about whips if I wasn't interested in using them or playing a character based on the iconic whip-user?

I'm the guy at my table trying to pull off things with a whip that the other players groan and roll their eyes at!
- I was using whips in 2e, when they were really useless.
- I used them in 3e when there were some hoops to jump through to make them in any way useful, but once you did they were almost brokenly good.
- I used them in Pathfinder, when it was quite easy to make whips a viable weapon, due to dedicated Feats.
- I'm currently using them in 5ed, in which they've handed it to us on a platter. That's what I'm arguing; that you don't need any extras to make them good, because they're already awesome!

Psh...tellin' me I ain't an Indy fan. :smallwink:

[krugaan]

Yeah, I think we may be getting bogged down in terms. Lets just say that "shove" is a stand in phrase used a modified fear mechanic. Cobaltstarfire is on the right track. It's a DM's call.

Having a bull whip crack in front of your face is quite dramatic, and could be frightening. In fact, since a whip crack is actually a mini sonic boom, breaking the sound barrier, it is possible to rupture an eardrum with the sound alone.

So, if your group decides to have fun with whip and it's abilities, go for it.

That's fine, I just think they would have called it something other than "shove" if it was really a modified fear mechanic.

Like, "threaten" or something.

[georgie_leech]

That's fine, I just think they would have called it something other than "shove" if it was really a modified fear mechanic.

Like, "threaten" or something.

Considering it's opposing STR (Athletics) check, I think that viewing it as an intimidation effect isn't well supported.

[cobaltstarfire]

Considering it's opposing STR (Athletics) check, I think that viewing it as an intimidation effect isn't well supported.

Yeah, that's probably why when I initially proposed this kind of "shove" I said that it felt better as an intimidate check.

[krugaan]

Yeah, that's probably why when I initially proposed this kind of "shove" I said that it felt better as an intimidate check.

isn't that more a charisma thing? I understand the points you're trying to make, they're just not really well supported by the RAW atm. Still would be fun to mess around with.

[cobaltstarfire]

isn't that more a charisma thing? I understand the points you're trying to make, they're just not really well supported by the RAW atm. Still would be fun to mess around with.

Intimidate is a skill check, I'm not really sure what else you want or need for something to "work" on a basic level.

I don't know how it could be applied to the feat, or it could even be a feat on its own (I think I have a pretty terrible sense of balance).

As a feat by itself I could see it being something as simple as "As a bonus action you may try to intimidate your opponent into moving 5 feet away from." Along with whatever extra fluff would go into the description of a feat that lets you intimidate people away with a whip.