Wizard spell save DC

[lv99wizard]

In general, do you think 5e handles wizard spell save DC in a balanced way? At 1st level DC is about 13 (8+2prof+3int) while at 20th this goes up to 19 (8+6prof+5int) without any magic items.

It seems to me that a lot of spells (flesh to stone, for example) have a save to fully negate any effect. At the same time, high level monsters have huge bonuses to their saves. Is spell save progression adequate for 5e?

[EvanescentHero]

Anything that means a wizard can't end an encounter with a single spell is good by me.

[hymer]

In general, do you think 5e handles wizard spell save DC in a balanced way? At 1st level DC is about 13 (8+2prof+3int) while at 20th this goes up to 19 (8+6prof+5int) without any magic items.

It seems to me that a lot of spells (flesh to stone, for example) have a save to fully negate any effect. At the same time, high level monsters have huge bonuses to their saves. Is spell save progression adequate for 5e?

Monsters don't usually have all good saves. If you know which save to target, you will still have the odds in your favour. Even an ancient gold dragon only has +4 in its Int save. And there are plenty of spells that don't require a save, for the times when you can't find a stat worth targeting.
I haven't (yet) played up at DC 19 on spell saves, but it seems to me things work pretty much as they ought to with spell save DCs. Wizards certainly don't feel underpowered to me.

[lv99wizard]

Monsters don't usually have all good saves. If you know which save to target, you will still have the odds in your favour. Even an ancient gold dragon only has +4 in its Int save. And there are plenty of spells that don't require a save, for the times when you can't find a stat worth targeting.

I think the save distribution for spells is oddly skewed. For example, there are only 4 (or so) spells targeting Int saves. And those spells aren't particularly good.

The big problem I have is that there is no modifier to spell DC. Compare that to spell attack, to which you can add inspiration, bless and advantage (not sure on the last one). And this is before legendary resistances are even factored in. It just feels like high CR monsters don't have very much to fear from wizards.

Compare this to a cleric's contagion 5th level spell. After a successful melee spell attack (adding spell attack modifier, inspiration, bless, advantage) against AC, the target is stunned for three rounds even if it makes its con saves or uses legendary resistances on every round. This spell is basically insta-win vs any monster in the game. 3 rounds of advantage on every attack for a Barbarian and fighter is probably worth upwards of 500hp damage...

The closest a wizard has is a flesh to stone 6th level spell. But in the wizard's case it is a flat DC save which negates the spell completely if made. And if the creature fails the save, it gets restrained and has 3 more chances at the save.

[hymer]

Compare this to a cleric's contagion 5th level spell.

Well, it's been noted that this is not how we're supposed to interpret contagion (see here (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/13/contagion-effects/)).

Regardless, judging from your statements, we must have very different views of the game.

[Biggstick]

Well, it's been noted that this is not how we're supposed to interpret contagion (see here (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/13/contagion-effects/)).

Regardless, judging from your statements, we must have very different views of the game.


Piggybacking on top of that. the Contagion spell is a disease. Anyone that is resistant or immune to disease can straight up laugh when the spell is cast on them.


If you're really looking at ways to help, look for ways to force an enemy to have disadvantage on said save (hex), or lower the actual bonus to the save roll (bane). Use your team mates! That's what they're there for!

[hymer]

Anyone that is resistant or immune to disease can straight up laugh when the spell is cast on them.

Well, disease immunity is rarer in 5e than it was in 3.X at least. Elementals, undead and constructs are flatly immune just from their type in 3.X. Not so in 5e. 3rd level paladins and 10th level land druids are immune to disease. I'm not sure there is an instance of disease immunity in the MM, though I'm happy to learn otherwise.

[Biggstick]

Well, disease immunity is rarer in 5e than it was in 3.X at least. Elementals, undead and constructs are flatly immune just from their type in 3.X. Not so in 5e. 3rd level paladins and 10th level land druids are immune to disease. I'm not sure there is an instance of disease immunity in the MM, though I'm happy to learn otherwise.

Maybe I've just fought a ton of undead, or those who've been touched with undeath, or DM's have changed monster stat blocks in games I've participated in because they can do that for RP reasons. I'm not arguing for DM's being in the wrong at all, I'm just saying that plenty of the things I've considered a big bad have had disease immunity in some way shape or form.

[lv99wizard]

The bigger point I wanted to make was that spell attack can add modifiers to easily ensure the spell hits (and then forces further saves) whereas there is nothing similar to modify a flat DC. And there isn't a great range of effects which reliably impose disadvantage on a save stat either. Coupled with the incredibly odd distribution of stat saves for the various spells, it just feels like wizards have a much harder time, especially later in the game. Even if they somehow know that a monster is weak to INT or CHA save, which isn't intended.

[RulesJD]

Piggybacking on top of that. the Contagion spell is a disease. Anyone that is resistant or immune to disease can straight up laugh when the spell is cast on them.


If you're really looking at ways to help, look for ways to force an enemy to have disadvantage on said save (hex), or lower the actual bonus to the save roll (bane). Use your team mates! That's what they're there for!

That's not how Hex works. Hex impacts checks, not saves.

Also, Phantasmal Force (Int save) is one of the best disabling spells in the game, if you go by RAW and have a modicum of creativity. Feeblemind is probably the best disabling spell in the game at later levels.

[eastmabl]

Regarding repeated saving throws ---

Remember that anything that works on your enemies also works on you and your party. In previous editions of the game, I've had players who failed an early saving throw and do nothing for a good chunk of the session.

Save-or-suck every round is more fun for everyone.

[Battlebooze]

Make friends with the Bard and get him to cast Bane on your target. I love that stupid spell. :)

[SharkForce]

if spell save DCs were much higher than their current values, the game would start to really break down as enemies would begin to have no chance to pass their saves whatsoever.

it is perfectly understandable why the spellcaster might want that scenario, but from the perspective of game design it is a really bad idea to have spells that functionally cannot be resisted in any way.

(and for the record, the few int saving throw spells that exist are actually quite powerful in their effects, particularly when you remember that most things have really bad saving throws against them).

as far as there not being things to boost saving throw DCs...

1) that isn't true (the robe of the archmagi or the staff of the magi, can't remember which, plus there's the ability tomes, plus there's an ioun stone that increases your proficiency bonus, and there are pact rods for warlocks). there's also the bestow curse spell, certain status conditions, and the bane spell, plus the wild magic level 6 ability (bend luck i think it's called). and of course the sorcerer metamagic heighten spell.
2) as noted, those items are kinda broken when applied to spells.

they're super-rare for a reason, and the reason is that extremely difficult saving throws to avoid being screwed over breaks the game.

yes, you can get a better hit chance in a variety of ways. but better hit chance generally just means a bit more damage... higher save DC means that you can probably keep enemies from acting at all. unless you're fighting enemies that die in a single hit, the two are not comparable in the slightest. the only way we could have nearly-guaranteed save DCs and not break the game is if there was something comparable to hit points to add a second layer of defense that you need to breech to accomplish anything. getting past a target's AC is generally just the first step in dealing with that enemy, so you can safely increase that chance without breaking the game's balance.

[Vogonjeltz]

In general, do you think 5e handles wizard spell save DC in a balanced way? At 1st level DC is about 13 (8+2prof+3int) while at 20th this goes up to 19 (8+6prof+5int) without any magic items.

It seems to me that a lot of spells (flesh to stone, for example) have a save to fully negate any effect. At the same time, high level monsters have huge bonuses to their saves. Is spell save progression adequate for 5e?

If the monster has a +8 to their save, they're still only going to avoid the effect 50% of the time against a max DC. That seems quite fair.

[Schwann145]

Even an ancient gold dragon only has +4 in its Int save.

I know this is a thread necro, but I just can't *not* comment on this. There's no way you didn't cherry-pick Int saves as your example here. Let's all together look at the Ancient Gold Dragon's saves:
•Str- Not proficient, so it only gets a +10 (ie: better than 50/50 odds, not that there are any Str-based saves in spells)
•Dex- Proficient! So even though it has a low Dex, it's still managing a +9 (50/50 odds of shrugging off a spell cast by one of the most powerful spell-casters possible...)
•Con- Proficient! Why are you even bothering? +16 son. Just pack up your spellbook and go home, cuz it only needs a 3 to beat you.
•Int- The aforementioned save, it's only weak point! +4. How many Int-based spells are there again? Like, 4? Good thing it has *Legendary Resistance* to just decide to save even when it would normally fail...
•Wis- Proficient! You're looking at another +10 save here, so just like Str, it's better than a 50/50 shot.
•Cha- Proficient! Holy damn, another +16. Just quit. Why did you even bother being a caster again? Go home.

So, it's proficient in 4 out of 6 saves, and the only saves it's not proficient in have all of like 4 spells in the entire game that target them.
As the most powerful caster you can possibly be (max stats, max prof bonus) your *best* strategy only gives you a 50/50 shot, and that's only if it decides not to use it's Legendary Resistance, which it can do 3/day.

Sorry, but I'd rather be targeting it's 22 AC as another class job. Much rather. 100% of the time I'd rather.

[xroads]

I think the lower spell DCs combined with the concentration mechanic was a great change for 5e.

In 3/3.5e, the casters dominated the game. Now that they've been mellowed out, martial classes can remain competitive with casters for a lot longer.

[MrStabby]

Well a wizard can still trivialise most level appropriate encounters at high levels. Wall of force doesn't need a save, nor forcecage. A single enemy tends to not be much of a challenge for a party so you can trivialise the encounter by removing the supporting elements for the main bad guy.

Given that for a high level spell, a failed save is pretty much going to take that creature out of the fight for some time it should not be something that has a high probability of happening.

I also think that the point above about the Intelligence saving thrown was missed. The point is that Int WAS cherry picked as a save to target - a Wizard has the biggest spell list in the game and can pick a spell that targets each save. Given that they can do that and given that they can chose which spell to cast, why would they pick the spell that would be saved against.

I think wizards are just fine. When they can't automatically end an encounter by having an enemy fail their chosen spell with a high probability, they can pick another spell they are less strong against, an effect that doesn't need a save or a spell that uses an attack roll. Not everything in the game needs to instantly lose to a high level wizard.

[Citan]

Sorry, but I'd rather be targeting it's 22 AC as another class job. Much rather. 100% of the time I'd rather.
Ok, so first I really wonder by which miracle you managed to stumble upon a thread that old...

Anyways... You are oversimplifying things.
Sorcerer has Heigtened (and you can add Bend Luck from Wild Magic): not yet a sure-win, but definitely much better than a 50/50, although I'd still wouldn't risk a CHA/CON targeting spell.
Diviner Wizard has Portent, so unless you just happened to encounter the dragon randomly you'll have chosen a day with great rolls: great way to make Dragon burn at least one legendary save in a turn, with 100% predictability.
Eldricht Knight has Eldricht Strike and great accuracy (welcome "heightened" Blindness or Ensnaring Strike if multiclass from 300 feet away: with Haste on top, it means possibly 2 legendary resistances blown).
Arcane Trickster has Magical Ambush (welcome "heightened" Phantasmal Force / Fear).
Ancients Paladin has frigging Aura of Protection, Aura of Warding and lvl 20 "great resilience" + "roll with disadvantage against all my spells" so he could also come and smite-spell the dragon.

Also people don't usually face a Dragon alone, so you could easily coordinate with other casters or a Monk (being stunned is problematic when DEX-based AOE or STR-based restrains follow just behind) or a Paladin (smite spells can be bitches too, between blinded, banished, "radiating", frightened) to just force the Dragon to blow all legendary resistances before your own cast comes...

As for martials, sure I'd probably accept to try and face a Dragon as a multiclass Arcane Trickster / Eldricht Knight or something similar that can give me Sharpshooter + Archery + Shield + high damage per turn + high mobility. But this does reduce the number of viable builds quite a bit, because kiting it is the only way a martial is gonna survive any Ancient Dragon (except *maybe* the aforementioned Ancients Paladin). Period.
Even in a party, I'd be more at ease playing a caster that falls back behind cover and supports through buffs/environmental spells than being the (stupidly? ^^) brave swordsman facing him front.

But that's me, I'm a coward in essence unless I'm a Paladin (because you're supposed to be high moral grounds give example, at least Devotion/Ancients in my view) or Barbarian (you never had the brain to think about how much danger you really put yourself into in the first place ;)). XD