10 minute cast time for rituals?

[raspin]

The 10 min ish cast time of rituals seems very exploitable in the wrong hands. I've house ruled the cast time of a ritual is an hour to make it take a more reasonable chunk of time and tie it nicely with short rest length. Many of the spells have an hour or even 8 hour duration.

I'm not so much worried about identify and detect magic but there is a lot of ships and pirates in my campaign and water walk, level 3, 10 min cast time, 10 People affected for an hour. Cast every 50 mins and the danger of the sea is trivialised except when the wizard is asleep.
The wizard in the group is a power gamer so I can imagine these exploits being spotted with relish. He was accepting of the one hour cast time from the start. The issue comes as another pc who died is considering re rolling as a wizard and feels the restrictions are unnecessary though he is perfectly amicable about.
So I'm seeking objective opinions...thanks

[gfishfunk]

I don't think that is exploitative -- its a fair use. I don't find it inherently power-game-y as it is built into the system as is.

Just because someone can walk on the water doesn't mean they won't have to make tons of acrobatics checks to avoid falling over due to choppy water, or avoid getting feet bitten off by sharks. It does not trivialize an ocean journey.

[hymer]

So I'm seeking objective opinions...thanks

I wouldn't change it. Ten minutes or an hour isn't going to make the major difference.
I don't see why water walking is such a worry for you. Imagine walking on firm ground that behaves like the rolling sea. It's not going to be a stroll. You're unlikely to drown, but you'll get drenched all the time, or thrown about like a cork, depending on how you choose to interpret it. Not easy to maintain concentration for ten minutes under those circumstances (see PHB p. 204; one save for every wave for ten minutes? He ain't gonna make that).
And even if you can move about on water, it's just a slightly more practical way of getting about than a rowboat and the ability to swim. And row boats don't drop you when someone casts dispel magic at you. And then there are sharks and crocodiles and orcas.

[CantigThimble]

If your players have really useful abilities that doesn't mean that you need to take them away or make them less useful, let your players be awesome and challenge them in other ways. If they easily overcome a challenge because they were prepared then let them have their victory.

[Once a Fool]

The ritual rules assume the DM is going to keep some form of time-based pressure on the PCs. Obviously, on a ship, the movement will not be halted while the ritual is cast, but random encounter rolls can still come up. And, on an ocean, I would definitely require some sort of concentration check to successfully cast something as intricately precise as a ritual, even if there is no random encounter.

That said, while I don't think 10 minute + casting time rituals are game-exploiting, even on a ship, I also don't think expanding the time to an hour + cast time would hurt anything (and can't see anyone seriously making the claim that it makes spellcasters weak, for instance--though, perhaps I'm about to be proven wrong in that assumption 🙂 ).

I've considered it myself for purely flavor-reasons.

[JellyPooga]

Cast every 50 mins and the danger of the sea is trivialised except when the wizard is asleep.

Correction; the danger of drowning at sea is trivialised. There are other dangers, including creatures, getting lost, hypothermia and dehydration.

As you say yourself, the Wizard can't be awake 24/7 and 10 people is a fraction of a crew.

Let's say someone goes overboard in the mother of all storms. Luckily, they happen to have Water Walk active on them. What happens next?

1) Someone has to notice they're overboard to even consider rescue.
2) There has to be someone spare to throw a rope to the guy. With everyone working/rushing to keep the ship upright, in one piece and off the ocean floor, this is not a given.
3) The guy overboard has to get to that rope. The ship is still moving away from him, the sea is as precipitous as the worst kind of mountain terrain except the ground isn't stationary, it's bucketing down with rain and there's gale-force winds.
4) The Captain has to consider the value of that mans life against that of his entire crew. Is it worth him trying to turn about to rescue the guy? Or should he sacrifice that mans life for those of his crew?

Water Walk in no way guarantees the safety of anyone at sea, even with 10 minute casting times.

Having said that, there's no really negative repercussions of having ritual casting last an hour, so it's up to you. The only thing it will really affect is the flavour of it; it will become less of a handy on-the-spot utility and more of something you wait until later to do.

[SharkForce]

if you're going to make it an hour, you may as well just remove some rituals from the game. phantom steed may as well be a 10 year casting time for all the value it will offer.

[raspin]

so a wizard casting back to back rituals as a safety net is being awesome?

Raw also doesn't say they can't just cast back to back when they are awake. Presumably it's effortless and long periods of concentration cause no issues?

If concentration can be maintained while you are fighting it doesn't seem like a choppy sea is going to cause too much issue unless a wave breaks over the boat or similar. I presume the ritual can be cast on horseback too.

Rituals just seem poorly implemented, not fleshed out, and open to providing a cheesey solution to problems and also nothing like any actual ritual...its more mumble a spell for 10 mins while you go about your normal business as many times as you like.

I may be wrong but that's how I see them currently...It seems most disagree.

Phantom steed has a duration? It can also be cast with a slot. Why remove it? Rituals seem to become like cantrips unless you get quite granular with time. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. It's hard to keep the time pressure up to the extent that minutes matter so much a ten minute ritual isn't worth casting. I don't want to roll for wandering mobs on a ten minute basis, like somehow a ritual makes bumping into mobs more likely, and I can't think when else, other than combat, I'd bother to get so granular with time measurement. Even a short rest is 1 hr.

The ritual time just gets hand waved as it's not going to be in rounds, Noone wants to sit through ten minutes in real time and encounters occurring based on such a short period of time seem silly...At best it id a narrative line of "im doing my ritual", "we stand guard" .."its done". Although by the raw stopping no measures, like stopping walking, are required except maybe a free hand.

Hence the hour. Hour by hour time makes sense and it's how I'd roll for encounters. It just made dense buy I'd be interested go hear how other people make them not just be cantrips by another name

[CantigThimble]

Yes, having the right ritual for the right situation IS being awesome. That's what utility characters do, they prepare for contingencies so when those contingencies come up they can overcome them easily. You shouldn't invalidate that player's character building decisions because you didn't plan on them being prepared for that contingency.

[RickAllison]

so a wizard casting back to back rituals as a safety net is being awesome?

Raw also doesn't say they can't just cast back to back when they are awake. Presumably it's effortless and long periods of concentration cause no issues?

If concentration can be maintained while you are fighting it doesn't seem like a choppy sea is going to cause too much issue unless a wave breaks over the boat or similar. I presume the ritual can be cast on horseback too.

Rituals just seem poorly implemented, not fleshed out, and open to providing a cheesey solution to problems and also nothing like any actual ritual...its more mumble a spell for 10 mins while you go about your normal business as many times as you like.

I may be wrong but that's how I see them currently...It seems most disagree.

Phantom steed has a duration? It can also be cast with a slot. Why remove it? Rituals seem to become like cantrips unless you get quite granular with time. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. It's hard to keep the time pressure up to the extent that minutes matter so much a ten minute ritual isn't worth casting. I don't want to roll for wandering mobs on a ten minute basis, like somehow a ritual makes bumping into mobs more likely, and I can't think when else, other than combat, I'd bother to get so granular with time measurement. Even a short rest is 1 hr.

The ritual time just gets hand waved as it's not going to be in rounds, Noone wants to sit through ten minutes in real time and encounters occurring based on such a short period of time seem silly...At best it id a narrative line of "im doing my ritual", "we stand guard" .."its done". Although by the raw stopping no measures, like stopping walking, are required except maybe a free hand.

Hence the hour. Hour by hour time makes sense and it's how I'd roll for encounters. It just made dense buy I'd be interested go hear how other people make them not just be cantrips by another name

As has been said, the rituals aren't really that cheesy. Solution for "cheesing" Water-Walking: Kraken, Kuo-Toa, Merrow, Giant Sharks, Giant Octopus, Hunter Shark, Killer Whale, Quipper (individual or especially in swarms), and Reef Sharks. Concentration broken or worse. Heck, the octopus can just grab the intrepid wizard and drag him under with an attack rather than needing to give him a chance to save.

[tieren]

It might not be a big deal for a wizard, but a tome lock that specifically built that way because they want to cast a lot of rituals may have issues with it.

Unseen servant is another one that wouldn't make much sense with an hour cast time, it would probably just be easier to do yourself whatever you wanted the servant to do for that hour.

[Regitnui]

The wizard is basically there for crowd control and making life easier with the right spell. Canyon? Wizard casts flight, just one example.

[raspin]

And how they differ mechanically from cantrips when the time is so hand wavey? See it seems you'd have to really target the player to have something disrupt a ritual he started at what it's fair to assume was a safe time, and only takes ten minutes, with little else in the way of requirements. "You start you ritual but a kraken/octopus/mob of impeccable comic timing attacks.". Maybe you could do that once in a while.

Why is it even call a ritual..There is no ritual to it. It's just a slow spell where the time is mostly irrelevant cos it's so short, it's cast outside combat, and you aren't required to do anything ritualistic besides not break concentration....people can manage that in combat and it's only relevant if attacked etc which is unlikely cos...who rolls random encounters every ten mins and to do so seems a bit like victimising the caster... It just doesn't make sense to me as a thing.

[raspin]

I understand I'm in the minority though some agree by threads I've read.

How do you play them in your game so they are less like out of combat cantrips?

[Addaran]

Basically, they are supposed to be cantrips with another name. But might get them later.

The rituals are all utility spells, not something you'd want to waste your slots in a "normal" adventuring game (6 combats a day). If the wizard have to use his slots for tiny hut's, detect magic, water breathing, etc then he's stuck only casting cantrips the rest of the day. (the reason they made cantrips, so the wizard wouldn't be useless/boring after casting his few big spells).

The casting time is just there so you can't active those utility in a few secondes, at will. It would lead to perma comprend language, detect magic spamming, respawning suicide familars, etc

edit: You are supposed to do a ritual and actually cast it for the 10 minutes. The caster shouldn't do anything else beside the ritual. And have the caster say what his ritual is. Our ritualist draws a huge pentacles with rune and mumbles magic words inside it. Wich also mean he can't participate in discutions for that time.

[RickAllison]

And how they differ mechanically from cantrips when the time is so hand wavey? See it seems you'd have to really target the player to have something disrupt a ritual he started at what it's fair to assume was a safe time, and only takes ten minutes, with little else in the way of requirements. "You start you ritual but a kraken/octopus/mob of impeccable comic timing attacks.". Maybe you could do that once in a while.

Why is it even call a ritual..There is no ritual to it. It's just a slow spell where the time is mostly irrelevant cos it's so short, it's cast outside combat, and you aren't required to do anything ritualistic besides not break concentration....people can manage that in combat and it's only relevant if attacked etc which is unlikely cos...who rolls random encounters every ten mins and to do so seems a bit like victimising the caster... It just doesn't make sense to me as a thing.

With the example of water-walking, it is ten minutes where they are a group of unprotected snacks for the ocean-dwellers. It's not a matter of impeccable timing, the creatures have ten minutes to attack. Are any of the players hurt or were previously hurt? A little blood in the water attracts both quipper and sharks. Octopus is probably a tool of a more intelligent enemy, and kraken... Well something still needs to threaten high-level players, I suppose. For the rest, however, the party is an exposed selection of concession stand treats. Rituals are primarily intended for safe situations, but standing on top of the ocean hardly qualifies as safe...

[tieren]

And how they differ mechanically from cantrips when the time is so hand wavey? See it seems you'd have to really target the player to have something disrupt a ritual he started at what it's fair to assume was a safe time, and only takes ten minutes, with little else in the way of requirements. "You start you ritual but a kraken/octopus/mob of impeccable comic timing attacks.". Maybe you could do that once in a while.

Why is it even call a ritual..There is no ritual to it. It's just a slow spell where the time is mostly irrelevant cos it's so short, it's cast outside combat, and you aren't required to do anything ritualistic besides not break concentration....people can manage that in combat and it's only relevant if attacked etc which is unlikely cos...who rolls random encounters every ten mins and to do so seems a bit like victimising the caster... It just doesn't make sense to me as a thing.

If you are worried about chain casting of water walking, instead of changing the casting time of all rituals why not just change the components of that spell to require the targets to stand in a chalk circle drawn on the ground before the effect takes place.

Try drawing a chalk circle once their out on the water...

[RickAllison]

If you are worried about chain casting of water walking, instead of changing the casting time of all rituals why not just change the components of that spell to require the targets to stand in a chalk circle drawn on the ground before the effect takes place.

Try drawing a chalk circle once their out on the water...

"And so it was that the wizard combined his intelligence with the carpentry skill of the fighter to create a deployable floor for casting Water Walk."
"But Da, why didn't they just use that skill to make a raft?"
"Shut up, son."

[raspin]

I like the sound of what your players are doing adaran. Sounds like an actual ritual. I'm not sure it's like that in the raw but that's what I envisage from the word ritual.

[AstralFire]

I'm with the others here -- I think you're seeing a problem where there is none. A Wizard can stomach this loss without much issue due to their insane versatility, but it destroys Ritual Caster as a feat, highly reduces the value of Pact of the Tome, and significantly reduces the utility for the non-wizard full casters. If a player -wants- to spend one-sixth of her time constantly doing nothing but giving a medium-sized group water walk, then I say let them. The sea has many dangers and they are reacting to them accordingly. There are fewer rituals than there should be to begin with.

[RickAllison]

I like the sound of what your players are doing adaran. Sounds like an actual ritual. I'm not sure it's like that in the raw but that's what I envisage from the word ritual.

Rituals don't all involve elaborate visuals and hokum. A ritual can just as much involve subtle incantations and be handled with just hands. With the piece of cork from Water Walk, I could easily see a wizard spend ten minutes concentrating, suspending a cork through magic, carefully absorbing the knowledge of its density, its porousness, everything that the cork is, then using that information gained to infuse the ten targets with that feeling of what it is to be a cork. Basically, rather than committing an elaborate display, it is an intensely intimate ritual where the wizard channels the very essence of an object into magic.

[manny2510]

I understand I'm in the minority though some agree by threads I've read.

How do you play them in your game so they are less like out of combat cantrips?

There's a good reason for that (https://youtu.be/yJD1Iwy5lUY?t=48) The only real way tho mitigate this is time constraints.

[Grasharm]

I say let them keep the 10 min for a ritual. Maybe make them describe what their character is doing while casting. As for water waking making things a cake walk keep in mind just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. If I had players water walking across an ocean or sea that would be a whole adventure in and of itself. You though hiking across a desert was tough. Wait till you have to do it someplace where the is no chance for an oasis and no landmarks. Dehydration, sunstroke, getting lost and not having enough food or fresh water.

[raspin]

Suicide familiars? So a dungeon filled with traps can be pre delved by a new, fresh eager suicidal familiar popping up ready to be the wizards eyes until it finds the traps mentioned above . Almost 6 an hour. Sorted. Heroic and fun for all and only 10 mins a pop.

It would seem quite taxing to make time always so pressing as to make ten minutes so precious that it was a waste to spend it casting rituals like above. A campaign where time is that pressing I could see being a pain with no time to do things but, equally, to only make time urgent during ritual casting seems artificial at best.

I guess I'll just have to view them as cantrips with really long durations (some).

FYI, I believe the raw only says you need to maintain concentration, forfill the components requirement and have it in your book if your a wiz. Requirement for anything else is presumably house rules? I may be wrong

[Edgerunner]

Correction; the danger of drowning at sea is trivialised. There are other dangers, including creatures, getting lost, hypothermia and dehydration.

3) The guy overboard has to get to that rope. The ship is still moving away from him, the sea is as precipitous as the worst kind of mountain terrain except the ground isn't stationary, it's bucketing down with rain and there's gale-force winds.


Water Walk in no way guarantees the safety of anyone at sea, even with 10 minute casting times.

Having said that, there's no really negative repercussions of having ritual casting last an hour, so it's up to you. The only thing it will really affect is the flavour of it; it will become less of a handy on-the-spot utility and more of something you wait until later to do.

Not to mention that waves could be crashing over top of him and doing bludgeoning damage.
Just stole this idea for my own campaign

[RickAllison]

Suicide familiars? So a dungeon filled with traps can be pre delved by a new, fresh eager suicidal familiar popping up ready to be the wizards eyes until it finds the traps mentioned above . Almost 6 an hour. Sorted. Heroic and fun for all and only 10 mins a pop.

Remember that it's casting time + ten minutes. For all but two, it is functionally ten minutes (eleven minutes for some). Find Familiar is one hour normally, so it is seventy minutes as a ritual (and still costs 10 gp), so it is actually not even one per hour. Six would be in seven hours. The other longer one is Forbiddance, which would take twenty minutes as a ritual.

[raspin]

Ok. As I said.im prepared to be wrong. I'll stick with raw but require some sort of detail, roleplay explanation of what they are doing and see how it goes.

I can always tell the wizard to con save vs exhaustion if he starts spamming rituals all day or maybe have him explode cos...magic :-)

[Addaran]

Suicide familiars? So a dungeon filled with traps can be pre delved by a new, fresh eager suicidal familiar popping up ready to be the wizards eyes until it finds the traps mentioned above . Almost 6 an hour. Sorted. Heroic and fun for all and only 10 mins a pop.


FYI, I believe the raw only says you need to maintain concentration, forfill the components requirement and have it in your book if your a wiz. Requirement for anything else is presumably house rules? I may be wrong

Haha, i mean if find familliar was a one round casting spell. You could do the trap thing or just send it to shocking grasp everything while you're safe.


Forfilling the components also mean the verbal and somatic! And that it use your action for the turn each turn. So by RAW, they can't do other stuff. While it's not specifically said that you must do something that look ritualistic, the description clearly say that you have the capability to cast rituals. For comparaison, i don't think there's anywhere that specificaly call for you not being able to use your cartographer's tools while walking/riding a horse. Most DMs wouldn't let that go though.

[RickAllison]

Haha, i mean if find familliar was a one round casting spell. You could do the trap thing or just send it to shocking grasp everything while you're safe.


Forfilling the components also mean the verbal and somatic! And that it use your action for the turn each turn. So by RAW, they can't do other stuff. While it's not specifically said that you must do something that look ritualistic, the description clearly say that you have the capability to cast rituals. For comparaison, i don't think there's anywhere that specificaly call for you not being able to use your cartographer's tools while walking/riding a horse. Most DMs wouldn't let that go though.

If a character had something like a pilot's lapboard (basically a foldable desk that can be tied down to your legs if you wish), I would say they would definitely be able to use cartographer's tools while riding, though I'd be more doubtful about walking. Of course, that person earned it by already thinking through for that eventuality :smallbiggrin:

[Addaran]

Of course, that person earned it by already thinking through for that eventuality :smallbiggrin:
Just like your deployable floor story. ;)
Of course you should reward players for creative thinking! As long as it fits the theme of the ritual the player choosed when making his character.

[JellyPooga]

Ok. As I said.im prepared to be wrong. I'll stick with raw but require some sort of detail, roleplay explanation of what they are doing and see how it goes.

I can always tell the wizard to con save vs exhaustion if he starts spamming rituals all day or maybe have him explode cos...magic :-)

It's not a case of being wrong. I just don't think you're going to get the desired result from increasing the cast time of rituals to +an hour.

If you really want to make Rituals feel ritualistic, introduce more requirements than "a bit of extra time"; expensive and/or rare/unique material components, cast times in hours (plural) or days, specific conditions and multiple participants. For example, perhaps casting Find Familiar takes 24 hours, can only be cast once a month during a new moon and requires the Wizard to permanently sacrifice 1HP worth of blood. Feeling like a ritual yet?

If the goal is to not have the Wizard trample all over your carefully planned campaign, then if he wants to break your game, it's not going to be by spam-casting ritual Water Walk or Find Familiar...trust me on this one! :smallwink: Find another solution.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Suicide familiars? So a dungeon filled with traps can be pre delved by a new, fresh eager suicidal familiar popping up ready to be the wizards eyes until it finds the traps mentioned above . Almost 6 an hour. Sorted. Heroic and fun for all and only 10 mins a pop.

It would seem quite taxing to make time always so pressing as to make ten minutes so precious that it was a waste to spend it casting rituals like above. A campaign where time is that pressing I could see being a pain with no time to do things but, equally, to only make time urgent during ritual casting seems artificial at best.

I guess I'll just have to view them as cantrips with really long durations (some).

FYI, I believe the raw only says you need to maintain concentration, forfill the components requirement and have it in your book if your a wiz. Requirement for anything else is presumably house rules? I may be wrong

1. Find Familiar has a 1 hour casting time and a cost of 10gp, not insignificant at low levels. You're not getting out six an hour, you're getting less than 1 (rituals add ten minutes to the casting time).
2. You can only see what the familiar sees when it's within 100 feet of you. Furthermore, beyond this distance you have no means of communicating with it, so you're not scouting with your mighty wizardly intelligence, you're scouting with the birds intelligence. How good are birds at detecting traps and mapping out dungeons? You could stay within a hundred feet of it, but that rather weakens the purpose of the exercise.
3. The repeated suicide eagles are going to get anything at all intelligent suspicious, and an enemy that is intelligent and educated will quickly realise `A wizard is probing my defences, albeit in an highly inefficient manner`. They will then have ample time to rearrange and prepare (or even mount a counterattack), thus rendering your efforts worse than useless.

I think quite a bit of your problem just comes from some misunderstandings of the rules.

EDIT: Oh my, that's quite a lot of ninjas.

[N810]

Player: I cast familiar as a rit, and have him search for traps.
DM: ok your familiar returns.
Player: we run down the hall.
(crunch) (impale) (splat)
DM: seems like your Familiar was too light to set off all the traps. Roll death saves. :nale:

DM: and you slip and fall into the river, give me a acrobatics roll.
Player: rolls a 2, uhhh... I cast walk on water
DM: as a ritual ?
Player: yea...
DM: 2 minutes later you drown trying to cast a 10 minute rirual. Roll for death saves. :nale:

[Talamare]

edit: You are supposed to do a ritual and actually cast it for the 10 minutes. The caster shouldn't do anything else beside the ritual. And have the caster say what his ritual is. Our ritualist draws a huge pentacles with rune and mumbles magic words inside it. Wich also mean he can't participate in discutions for that time.

You're allowed to house rule whatever you want, however Rituals ONLY require you "ACTION" to use.
Meaning you are still allowed to move and use bonus actions

and technically, since you are allowed to cast 2 Verbal spells per turn, and still say short phrases. You should be fine talking while casting a Ritual
I suppose tho its fair to disallow speeches or any speech that would require a roll tho

Rituals are MEANT, 100% INTENDED to be Out of Combat Cantrips
Stop trying to go against the flow, and if you disagree. Just play with whatever house rules you want.
However, basically none of them actually DO very much

[raspin]

Me and the player have discussed it by text while getting your kind feedback. We have agreed the cast times remain as raw, that there is a cap on rituals per short rest which is the same as the characters proficiency and the rituals will have some flavour, maybe burn a little incense or something.

[RickAllison]

Me and the player have discussed it by text while getting your kind feedback. We have agreed the cast times remain as raw, that there is a cap on rituals per short rest which is the same as the characters proficiency and the rituals will have some flavour, maybe burn a little incense or something.

The short rest restriction is really reasonable. I think the only times players I've gone with have gone beyond that restriction would have been using Detect Magic, and that was more just for the convenience. Sounds like an optimal solution!

[Theodoxus]

I'm glad you found a solution - my wizard player would balk at it - she ended up casting Alarm in 4 slightly overlapping locations to ward a cavern they were taking a long rest in... only having 2 wards would have made my ambush legit :smallmad:

I think another potential compromise would be to require wizards to prepare spells they were going to cast as rituals, just like any other caster. Sure, it kills a touch of uniqueness to wizards, but it would make tomelocks and Ritual Caster feat holders that much more unique (as well as giving wizards a reason to take the feat :smallcool:)

Really, the only ritual I've seen abused is Leo's Tiny Hut - but that's more an issue with the actual spell, and only slightly aggravated by the fact that it's a ritual. It's certainly one I would consider making mandatory to have prepared... It's so good, our lore bard grabbed it at the first opportunity.

[Segev]

In my experience, a lot of rituals are just not useful as such. You can't plan for their need 10 minutes in advance, especially when their durations are only 10 minutes! Detect magic is a big culprit, here. You can't prepare it enough ahead of time to just have it up when you find something you need to quickly discern the magic of while you have opportunity, and given the last clauses, you don't have 10 minutes to spend casting it.

Stopping every hour to spend another 10 minutes casting phantom steed seems an awfully irritating procedure, too, especially if you actually need more than one mount (because you've got a party with you, for example). And while I suppose the rules allow it, having to keep casting a ritual constantly to keep up to 6 phantom steeds active for your buddies (or, rather, to let one of them change mounts every 10 minutes as their old one expires and a new one appears, if you go by strict RAW) sounds really unpleasant as a way to travel.

[Alejandro]

Just how often are people falling off the ship, anyway? Unless the sea is especially rough/breaking over the deck, no one's likely to fall off, barring shenanigans. And if the sea is that rough, I'd be more worried about the ship breaking or foundering anyway.

[Vogonjeltz]

The 10 min ish cast time of rituals seems very exploitable in the wrong hands. I've house ruled the cast time of a ritual is an hour to make it take a more reasonable chunk of time and tie it nicely with short rest length. Many of the spells have an hour or even 8 hour duration.

I'm not so much worried about identify and detect magic but there is a lot of ships and pirates in my campaign and water walk, level 3, 10 min cast time, 10 People affected for an hour. Cast every 50 mins and the danger of the sea is trivialised except when the wizard is asleep.
The wizard in the group is a power gamer so I can imagine these exploits being spotted with relish. He was accepting of the one hour cast time from the start. The issue comes as another pc who died is considering re rolling as a wizard and feels the restrictions are unnecessary though he is perfectly amicable about.
So I'm seeking objective opinions...thanks

10 minutes is quite a long time, and the character has to maintain their concentration the entire time. So if we're talking rough seas, it's entirely possible to get concentration broken while trying to cast the ritual (say, a wave knocking the character over while they are on deck).

Casting rituals also precludes benefitting from short or long rests in that time-frame. Most rituals are also just a little bit of utility. I wouldn't nerf them by increasing the base duration, it's going overboard, so to speak. Also of note, it's 10 minutes longer. Some rituals already require a minute or more.

[RickAllison]

In my experience, a lot of rituals are just not useful as such. You can't plan for their need 10 minutes in advance, especially when their durations are only 10 minutes! Detect magic is a big culprit, here. You can't prepare it enough ahead of time to just have it up when you find something you need to quickly discern the magic of while you have opportunity, and given the last clauses, you don't have 10 minutes to spend casting it.

For us, Detect Magic as a ritual tends to be for finding any magic out and about rooms as we are looting. At that point, we do have ten minutes to spend casting it (further evidence for why rituals don't really need nerfing...).

[raspin]

Just how often are people falling off the ship, anyway? Unless the sea is especially rough/breaking over the deck, no one's likely to fall off, barring shenanigans. And if the sea is that rough, I'd be more worried about the ship breaking or foundering anyway.

Well, there will likely be a lot of ship to ship combat and shenanigans. Two of the PCs are sailors and they are keen to go where the wind takes them now they have secured a sloop. Historically, ship combat, pre-canon, was treated a lot like land combat, with the use of pikemen and such and ships having towering parts that allowed for higher ground. The combat would end up with someone boarding someone else as they didn't have canons, much like they do not in our game.

Being able to run over and set a ship on fire, and run back, or just stepping off your own ship should it catch alight, while the other set of sailors are governed by remaining on the ship and not wanting to drown or burn, does kind of spoil the feel a little. If you think of ship combat being a tactical war-game-lite until the ships clash, ram, are pulled together or some sort of boarding action takes place, then the action goes down to the battle map level. That's a lot of daliances with the sea/water/other ships that are, no question, made a lot easier by not being able to drown and a lot of "fun" considerations that become non-issues. Very close to the start they suffered a plot shipwreck and one of them nearly drowned only to be rescued by a comrade PC. I'm not concerned of the suggesting some people have floated....sorry....that they will substitute sailing for walking and cross the oceans on foot...it was more the concern that always on water walk ruined the above in terms of epic pirate shenanigans.

To your pint, you worry a lot less about falling off a ship, it breaking up, or floundering if you can jebus-it-up and walk away from the situation.

Anyway, its sorted now :-)

[raspin]

For us, Detect Magic as a ritual tends to be for finding any magic out and about rooms as we are looting. At that point, we do have ten minutes to spend casting it (further evidence for why rituals don't really need nerfing...).

Well that is an interesting point. Just how are you measuring time out of combat that players dont have 10 minutes to cast a ritual? If its because there is always time pressure on them how is this maintained consistantly short of shouting at them "come on, do it, explore, don't dally, ONWARD!!!!". :-)

[RickAllison]

Well that is an interesting point. Just how are you measuring time out of combat that players dont have 10 minutes to cast a ritual? If its because there is always time pressure on them how is this maintained consistantly short of shouting at them "come on, do it, explore, don't dally, ONWARD!!!!". :-)

That's the point, we do have the time. It doesn't need nerfing because when it really matters (i.e. when someone is about to die), the spell slot still has to get used. Often, its greatest purpose is to ensure we don't waste more time having to rest or recover spell slots later due to injuries from traps or overcoming magical obstacles. It creates a rather interesting slingshot effect. Ten minutes of manual searching, collecting information, disabling traps, grabbing loot, then 10 minutes of frantically trying to find everything magic before the spell wears off. Makes the off-time very interesting.

[Segev]

Well that is an interesting point. Just how are you measuring time out of combat that players dont have 10 minutes to cast a ritual? If its because there is always time pressure on them how is this maintained consistantly short of shouting at them "come on, do it, explore, don't dally, ONWARD!!!!". :-)

An example from a real event in the first session of my first 5e game:

We were traveling to a cave, and came across a woman running, in torn clothes (slashed like from a sword, murderous rather than sexual assault-ish), carrying a sword she managed to wrest from the villain who had nearly killed her mentor and was trying to kill her.

For various reasons based on cues I do'nt recall specifically off-hand, I had reason to worry that the sword may have been madness-inducing or otherwise cursed, but I didn't want to tip off the frantic woman that I was doing something and we were worried the guy might still be around. I certainly didn't have time to cast identify, and likewise couldn't take 10 minutes to cast detect magic. Upon casting detect magic out of a first level slot, I did, in fact, determine that it was magical and radiated an aura of uncomfortable nature. This provided us some clue as to what to expect when we later found the bad guy.

[Alejandro]

Well, there will likely be a lot of ship to ship combat and shenanigans. Two of the PCs are sailors and they are keen to go where the wind takes them now they have secured a sloop. Historically, ship combat, pre-canon, was treated a lot like land combat, with the use of pikemen and such and ships having towering parts that allowed for higher ground. The combat would end up with someone boarding someone else as they didn't have canons, much like they do not in our game.

Being able to run over and set a ship on fire, and run back, or just stepping off your own ship should it catch alight, while the other set of sailors are governed by remaining on the ship and not wanting to drown or burn, does kind of spoil the feel a little. If you think of ship combat being a tactical war-game-lite until the ships clash, ram, are pulled together or some sort of boarding action takes place, then the action goes down to the battle map level. That's a lot of daliances with the sea/water/other ships that are, no question, made a lot easier by not being able to drown and a lot of "fun" considerations that become non-issues. Very close to the start they suffered a plot shipwreck and one of them nearly drowned only to be rescued by a comrade PC. I'm not concerned of the suggesting some people have floated....sorry....that they will substitute sailing for walking and cross the oceans on foot...it was more the concern that always on water walk ruined the above in terms of epic pirate shenanigans.

To your pint, you worry a lot less about falling off a ship, it breaking up, or floundering if you can jebus-it-up and walk away from the situation.

Anyway, its sorted now :-)

I would give far more thought to a PC wizard simply Fireballing an enemy ship, than worrying about someone running around on the water with a torch, personally.

[raspin]

10 minutes is quite a long time, and the character has to maintain their concentration the entire time. So if we're talking rough seas, it's entirely possible to get concentration broken while trying to cast the ritual (say, a wave knocking the character over while they are on deck).

Casting rituals also precludes benefitting from short or long rests in that time-frame. Most rituals are also just a little bit of utility. I wouldn't nerf them by increasing the base duration, it's going overboard, so to speak. Also of note, it's 10 minutes longer. Some rituals already require a minute or more.

No, 10 minutes is not a long time IMO. I'm cool with, as people have described here, Rituals being like cantrips for out of combat but claiming they take a long time is not true wholesale. Even in rough seas you are not running 6 second rounds surely? How am I honestly to determine if something happens, fairly, during that 10 minutes of hand waivey time without the player calling shenanigans. They could be in rough sea for days. How many concentration breaking wave dice rolls are you making in a 10 minute cast time?

Sure, in a rough storm he might not cast it, but its a very specific set of circumstances, a very contrived set of circumstances, or he astoundingly unlucky, when a player will think its ok to spend 10 minutes casting a ritual and his concentration ends up being broken by a random event or even damage. 10 mins is a few lines of narrative and a bit of discussion.

Regarding the ritual precluding benefiting from a short rest....they rest 1hr 10mins. You can pick if they do the ritual before or after. I'm not gonna tell them they cant do that because even I can't see why they can't. Sure the wizard might be unlucky and they get attacked in the 1/7 of the time he is doing his ritual and then he'll think "my bloody DM hates me " but its ok cos its only another 10 mins to do it again and what are the chances of his concentration getting broken twice?

Can you imagine the poor fella, "every time I start a ritual bloody Kobolds come out of no-where. What is it about this dam summoning ritual that keeps causing these monsters to appear" although it could be amusing, he might not appreciate it.

I know all rituals vary in time but a lot are around 10 mins. Also, I know you can't summon monsters that way :-)

[raspin]

I would give far more thought to a PC wizard simply Fireballing an enemy ship, than worrying about someone running around on the water with a torch, personally.

Fireballs kind of are the cannons of the magical no cannon fantasy sea combat arena i'd imagine. They have a range. They don't stop you burning on your own ship, so you'd still need to put out fires aboard, and they don't stop you drowning, much like canons, they just do a lot of damage.

Anyway, its fine. I'm sure it won't be an issue. They'll never find that dam water walking spell to start with mwahaha

[AstralFire]

Well, there will likely be a lot of ship to ship combat and shenanigans. Two of the PCs are sailors and they are keen to go where the wind takes them now they have secured a sloop. Historically, ship combat, pre-canon, was treated a lot like land combat, with the use of pikemen and such and ships having towering parts that allowed for higher ground. The combat would end up with someone boarding someone else as they didn't have canons, much like they do not in our game.

Being able to run over and set a ship on fire, and run back, or just stepping off your own ship should it catch alight, while the other set of sailors are governed by remaining on the ship and not wanting to drown or burn, does kind of spoil the feel a little. If you think of ship combat being a tactical war-game-lite until the ships clash, ram, are pulled together or some sort of boarding action takes place, then the action goes down to the battle map level. That's a lot of daliances with the sea/water/other ships that are, no question, made a lot easier by not being able to drown and a lot of "fun" considerations that become non-issues. Very close to the start they suffered a plot shipwreck and one of them nearly drowned only to be rescued by a comrade PC. I'm not concerned of the suggesting some people have floated....sorry....that they will substitute sailing for walking and cross the oceans on foot...it was more the concern that always on water walk ruined the above in terms of epic pirate shenanigans.

To your pint, you worry a lot less about falling off a ship, it breaking up, or floundering if you can jebus-it-up and walk away from the situation.

Anyway, its sorted now :-)

I think your problem is with magic, not with rituals. Magic characters in general are going to somewhat break the rules of a real-world encounter they are put into by their very nature. How do you plan to handle someone with firebolt? Or worse, firebolt with spell sniper? 240 foot range setting your ship alight at will -- that is far more dangerous and game changing than what amounts to the wizard having an inflatable life raft.

Prestidigitation by itself makes fires on a ship considerably more survivable, from the other angle, also at will.

[Segev]

No, 10 minutes is not a long time IMO. I'm cool with, as people have described here, Rituals being like cantrips for out of combat but claiming they take a long time is not true wholesale. Even in rough seas you are not running 6 second rounds surely? How am I honestly to determine if something happens, fairly, during that 10 minutes of hand waivey time without the player calling shenanigans. They could be in rough sea for days. How many concentration breaking wave dice rolls are you making in a 10 minute cast time?

Sure, in a rough storm he might not cast it, but its a very specific set of circumstances, a very contrived set of circumstances, or he astoundingly unlucky, when a player will think its ok to spend 10 minutes casting a ritual and his concentration ends up being broken by a random event or even damage. 10 mins is a few lines of narrative and a bit of discussion.

Regarding the ritual precluding benefiting from a short rest....they rest 1hr 10mins. You can pick if they do the ritual before or after. I'm not gonna tell them they cant do that because even I can't see why they can't. Sure the wizard might be unlucky and they get attacked in the 1/7 of the time he is doing his ritual and then he'll think "my bloody DM hates me " but its ok cos its only another 10 mins to do it again and what are the chances of his concentration getting broken twice?

Can you imagine the poor fella, "every time I start a ritual bloody Kobolds come out of no-where. What is it about this dam summoning ritual that keeps causing these monsters to appear" although it could be amusing, he might not appreciate it.

I know all rituals vary in time but a lot are around 10 mins. Also, I know you can't summon monsters that way :-)

The answer is: don't. Don't look to drop things to interrupt the ritual casting. That's not what the 10 minute time is meant to "allow."

If a spell has the (ritual) tag, it's MEANT to be used as often as the players want. The 10 minute ritual casting time makes its own limitations. If they've got the time, let them take it. They're hardly keeping things with that tag up all day; they'll have to stop and take 10 minutes to restart it. Especially for things with 10 min. or less duration, that would mean you literally cannot do anything but ritual-cast to keep it up!

[RickAllison]

I would give far more thought to a PC wizard simply Fireballing an enemy ship, than worrying about someone running around on the water with a torch, personally.

Why do you even need a Fireball? Fire Bolt explicitly lights flammable material not worn or carried, Create Bonfire could work as well depending on the definition of ground, and Control Flames can augment any existing flames, and those are cantrips! L1 wizards and sorcerers can light the other ship on fire all day long.

EDIT: Shadowmonk'd. As for siccing monsters on them, you don't do it every time, you do it once. One interrupted Water Walk ritual potentially dooms the entire party if they don't have contingency plans for it, and one Detect Magic ritual interrupted by the magical item they wanted to examine exploding will ensure that the party doesn't assume they will always have as much time as they like. Remember: repeat events are boring, singular events can be terrifying.

[Alejandro]

Oh, I know. I was just pointing out the logic hole in the basic argument.

What happens if the party wizard levels up and wants to add the spell to their book, anyway? You just tell them 'nope, you can't have that one?'

And fireballs and lightning bolts aside, we haven't even touched summoning creatures that can swim (or carry you in the water, or go attack that boat from below) or Fly as a pretend water walk, or PCs just realizing you aren't going to let them protect against their drowning in this way, and making life jackets out of cork. :)

[AstralFire]

The answer is: don't. Don't look to drop things to interrupt the ritual casting. That's not what the 10 minute time is meant to "allow."

If a spell has the (ritual) tag, it's MEANT to be used as often as the players want. The 10 minute ritual casting time makes its own limitations. If they've got the time, let them take it. They're hardly keeping things with that tag up all day; they'll have to stop and take 10 minutes to restart it. Especially for things with 10 min. or less duration, that would mean you literally cannot do anything but ritual-cast to keep it up!

I kept meaning to get to this point and kept getting distracted so I didn't, but thanks, Segev. It's kind of a jerk move, imo, to pull the "interruptions on casting a ritual" unless it is a particularly dangerous scenario and they are reasonably on notice IC. "It's stormy as all get-out tonight so making concentration for your ritual probably isn't happening" is probably reasonable, but "oh, it's a clear day but there just happened to be a wave because those do randomly happen on clear days, make me a concentration roll or fail" is just killing time to kill time. I might at most say that the ritual takes slightly longer to do on a ship or something.

[raspin]

The answer is: don't. Don't look to drop things to interrupt the ritual casting. That's not what the 10 minute time is meant to "allow."

If a spell has the (ritual) tag, it's MEANT to be used as often as the players want. The 10 minute ritual casting time makes its own limitations. If they've got the time, let them take it. They're hardly keeping things with that tag up all day; they'll have to stop and take 10 minutes to restart it. Especially for things with 10 min. or less duration, that would mean you literally cannot do anything but ritual-cast to keep it up!

I was replying to a post indicating maintaining concentration was a concern but I couldn't see how it would be. It sounds like you agree.

[raspin]

I kept meaning to get to this point and kept getting distracted so I didn't, but thanks, Segev. It's kind of a jerk move, imo, to pull the "interruptions on casting a ritual" unless it is a particularly dangerous scenario and they are reasonably on notice IC. "It's stormy as all get-out tonight so making concentration for your ritual probably isn't happening" is probably reasonable, but "oh, it's a clear day but there just happened to be a wave because those do randomly happen on clear days, make me a concentration roll or fail" is just killing time to kill time. I might at most say that the ritual takes slightly longer to do on a ship or something.

Yes, read my post, its exactly what I said in it. That concentrration is a non-issue cos only a mean DM would make something happen in 10 minutes of casting. I think you meant to quote the chap who said the caster might be hit by a wave?

[AstralFire]

Yes, read my post, its exactly what I said in it. That concentrration is a non-issue cos only a mean DM would make something happen in 10 minutes of casting. I think you meant to quote the chap who said the caster might be hit by a wave?

The post about concentration and rituals was (at least in my case, and possibly Segev's too) was more of a general statement to a lot of the commentary I'm seeing here. I was only specifically responding to you with my post about firebolt and prestidigitation.

[RickAllison]

I was replying to a post indicating maintaining concentration was a concern but I couldn't see how it would be. It sounds like you agree.

Ideally, it should never be a concern. The party generally wouldn't use rituals in a circumstance that could result in a loss of concentration. Now, if they try using it in adverse conditions, there are plenty of reasons why loss of concentration is a concern. Harsh waves, creatures swimming beneath you, storms, exhaustion kicking in from not being able to rest, the list goes on and on. Most of these will never come up, because players generally realize the odds of these happening if they try stunts like endless water-walking are good, especially if the DM doesn't like it.

[raspin]

Oh, I know. I was just pointing out the logic hole in the basic argument.

What happens if the party wizard levels up and wants to add the spell to their book, anyway? You just tell them 'nope, you can't have that one?'

And fireballs and lightning bolts aside, we haven't even touched summoning creatures that can swim (or carry you in the water, or go attack that boat from below) or Fly as a pretend water walk, or PCs just realizing you aren't going to let them protect against their drowning in this way, and making life jackets out of cork. :)

Now you're being silly and putting ideas forward that are not mine as if I suggested them. It's not magic that is the issue. I explained why water walking makes the type of scenario we are in less EPIC. I'm sure someone reasonable who was playing a pirate campaign would at least concede it might alter the dynamic and feel; and the perceived threat of being on a ship at sea. The discussion was specifically about rituals and water walk is one. An earlier post mentioned how it might be kept up on a long voyage for long periods. The issue is not the boats, and their vulnerability.

Someone else mentioned fireballs and why am I not concerned about them. I answered. They are weapons, the threat still remains the same and actually fireballs in many ways could be seen like cannons. Its not that ships shouldn't be damaged, its that it should feel a bit dangerous to be on them. Feel free to tell my why that is incorrect.

Yes, magic can breaks many things. One day someone will change something in their campaign magic breaks that they don't wish to live with, until then i guess we are all stuck with the raw gospel. We wait with anticipation for that homebrew pioneer.

[raspin]

I think we are at crossed purposes...I think most agree disrupting a ritual cast is mean and unnecessary unless someone tries to do a ritual somewhere totally inappropriate.

I can defo see people have significantly different views about what a ritual entails, from an actual ritual, to wandering about mumbling a few words under your breath but otherise behaving normally. Someone even suggested you could talk to allies in a chatty sense while performing one. I'm not sure tbh.

[RickAllison]

Now you're being silly and putting ideas forward that are not mine as if I suggested them. It's not magic that is the issue. I explained why water walking makes the type of scenario we are in less EPIC. I'm sure someone reasonable who was playing a pirate campaign would at least concede it might alter the dynamic and feel; and the perceived threat of being on a ship at sea. The discussion was specifically about rituals and water walk is one. An earlier post mentioned how it might be kept up on a long voyage for long periods. The issue is not the boats, and their vulnerability.

Having Water Walk doesn't reduce the main threat of being on a ship at sea at all. If you are worried about that, look at spells that create food and water. Between Goodberry and Create/Destroy Water, a caster can survive on a large enough piece of splintered ship as a raft. The Destroy Water even makes the caster a terrifying threat if they can get close, as they essentially have torpedoes/depth charges that can tear apart modern battleships.


Someone else mentioned fireballs and why am I not concerned about them. I answered. They are weapons, the threat still remains the same and actually fireballs in many ways could be seen like cannons. Its not that ships shouldn't be damaged, its that it should feel a bit dangerous to be on them. Feel free to tell my why that is incorrect.

The most dangerous part about being on a ship is the fact that you are days, if not weeks away from civilization with little chance of being seen. Water Walk and the other rituals don't really help with these (or is there one that does...).


Yes, magic can breaks many things. One day someone will change something in their campaign magic breaks that they don't wish to live with, until then i guess we are all stuck with the raw gospel. We wait with anticipation for that homebrew pioneer.

Yes, it breaks things as far as the DM is willing to let them. That's the nature of magic, it gives you a big toolbox, but the player needs to figure out how to use it.

[AstralFire]

Now you're being silly and putting ideas forward that are not mine as if I suggested them. It's not magic that is the issue. I explained why water walking makes the type of scenario we are in less EPIC. I'm sure someone reasonable who was playing a pirate campaign would at least concede it might alter the dynamic and feel; and the perceived threat of being on a ship at sea. The discussion was specifically about rituals and water walk is one. An earlier post mentioned how it might be kept up on a long voyage for long periods. The issue is not the boats, and their vulnerability.

Someone else mentioned fireballs and why am I not concerned about them. I answered. They are weapons, the threat still remains the same and actually fireballs in many ways could be seen like cannons. Its not that ships shouldn't be damaged, its that it should feel a bit dangerous to be on them. Feel free to tell my why that is incorrect.

Yes, magic can breaks many things. One day someone will change something in their campaign magic breaks that they don't wish to live with, until then i guess we are all stuck with the raw gospel. We wait with anticipation for that homebrew pioneer.

I'm in no way a "RAW is LAW" person; I've been a frequent advocate for changing the rules to improve immersion since I first got into tabletop. I simply find it hard to understand how you're okay with vastly increased firepower changing the course of combat but not a relatively minor utility ability. Someone who uses water-walking as a rescue after their ship goes down is still likely at sea, with whatever weather conditions that entails, no place to get shelter, and a relatively slow target for an enemy ship full of arrows and javelins at the very least.

Losing the ship is a -really- big deal in any scenario save maybe river ships still. No one ever went "oh, this ship has lifeboats, this alleviates any concern or attachment I have for the well-being of the ship."

[Addaran]

You're allowed to house rule whatever you want, however Rituals ONLY require you "ACTION" to use.
Meaning you are still allowed to move and use bonus actions

and technically, since you are allowed to cast 2 Verbal spells per turn, and still say short phrases. You should be fine talking while casting a Ritual
I suppose tho its fair to disallow speeches or any speech that would require a roll tho



Unlike two different verbal spells in a turn, it's the same one over multiple turns, that makes a huge difference.
The genre is full of exemple of ritual and/or casting that turns horribly wrong if the caster mispell (pun not intended!) some of the words or get interrupted. Doing short sentances in the middle of it doesn't make any sense.

ex: "Summonus duo wolfus" is your casting to summon two wolves. If you say instead " Summonus Get the Half-dragon! duo wolfus" you'd probably summon some kind of half-dragon aberration that isn't under your control.

Or if we put it differently, the casting of the ritual is singing the national anthem. If the guy use his free actions to explain to his friend how to make blueberry muffins(in short sentances!), while singing, i'm pretty sure nobody would say he sang the national anthem right.

[raspin]

Having Water Walk doesn't reduce the main threat of being on a ship at sea at all. If you are worried about that, look at spells that create food and water. Between Goodberry and Create/Destroy Water, a caster can survive on a large enough piece of splintered ship as a raft. The Destroy Water even makes the caster a terrifying threat if they can get close, as they essentially have torpedoes/depth charges that can tear apart modern battleships..

Death by drowning or fire is a more immediate threat than starvation. Part of the issue of being so far from anything is being in an enviroment which we can't naturally survive in due to food, yes, and the fact we can't breath underwater or survive in it.

I'm sure destory water is terrifying "if they can get close" so when they walk over then terrifying it will be :-)

There is the Arakocra PC race that many people won't have in their game. Are they at fault?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?403047-EE-Aarakocra-issues

Some things might be in the game but they might not make it better or more fun depending what the game is. I'm sure water walk is fine nearly all the time. If the PCs spend 99% of their lives of ships, it is sure to be a more impactful spell no?

I've seen people complain about dark vision as it ruins spooky night time encounters, some don't use that. Are they wrong?
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/3kuabk/5e_darkvision_i_hate_it_its_no_fun_and_it_can_die/

So anyway, Water Walk is in my game but I don't like it cos its at odds with the setting and feel of the campaign. So is my opinion.

[raspin]

I'm in no way a "RAW is LAW" person; I've been a frequent advocate for changing the rules to improve immersion since I first got into tabletop. I simply find it hard to understand how you're okay with vastly increased firepower changing the course of combat but not a relatively minor utility ability. Someone who uses water-walking as a rescue after their ship goes down is still likely at sea, with whatever weather conditions that entails, no place to get shelter, and a relatively slow target for an enemy ship full of arrows and javelins at the very least.

Losing the ship is a -really- big deal in any scenario save maybe river ships still. No one ever went "oh, this ship has lifeboats, this alleviates any concern or attachment I have for the well-being of the ship."

Or its not used like that and 10s of troops literally walk across the sea to the other ship each time there is a combat and undermine the whole sea combat which the campaign is based on, which makes manuvres, range, and ship to ship combat less EPIC. Casting it to go rescue your mate is a bit different. It's not a minor utility if it can be cast regularly, without cost, and it affects 10 people. They are on a sloop; thats a significant number of the crew.

Its good to debate this kind of thing, but I don't think we are going to agree as I think we are talking about two different things.

[Quintessence]

The 10 min ish cast time of rituals seems very exploitable in the wrong hands. I've house ruled the cast time of a ritual is an hour to make it take a more reasonable chunk of time and tie it nicely with short rest length. Many of the spells have an hour or even 8 hour duration.

I'm not so much worried about identify and detect magic but there is a lot of ships and pirates in my campaign and water walk, level 3, 10 min cast time, 10 People affected for an hour. Cast every 50 mins and the danger of the sea is trivialised except when the wizard is asleep.
The wizard in the group is a power gamer so I can imagine these exploits being spotted with relish. He was accepting of the one hour cast time from the start. The issue comes as another pc who died is considering re rolling as a wizard and feels the restrictions are unnecessary though he is perfectly amicable about.
So I'm seeking objective opinions...thanks

You seem to have a really bad case of butthurt DM, just because your players are actually using their abilities doesn't mean you need to nerf stuff :/

[raspin]

You seem to have a really bad case of butthurt DM, just because your players are actually using their abilities doesn't mean you need to nerf stuff :/

It is a theoretical discussion. Your diagnosis is inaccurate. What is it I am nerfing? I sought opinions to see if I should reverse a change I had made; which I have done. I imagine you just read the first post. Your contribution is welcome, despite being as it is. It is ironic that your signature talks about mental fortitude.

[SharkForce]

just curious, you do realize that almost anything water walk can do, the athletics skill can do (in addition to just being generally useful) as long as you don't mind getting wet, right?

[RickAllison]

It is a theoretical discussion. Your diagnosis is inaccurate. What is it I am nerfing? I sought opinions to see if I should reverse a change I had made; which I have done. I imagine you just read the first post. Your contribution is welcome, despite being as it is. It is ironic that your signature talks about mental fortitude.

I am sorry if any of my comments seem adversarial. I'm really enjoying this discussion, actually. Naval campaigns are something I've always wanted to do, but I haven't found a DM in my area yet who wanted to run one, so all of my ideas have to get brought out here. As for the Aarakocra (my favorite race...), they would be terrifying participants for ship-to-ship combat, at least until something knocks them prone. Then they get wet and will have difficulty flying (unless they take the Mariner fighting style! Albatross Aarakocra!).

[E’Tallitnics]

Ok. As I said.im prepared to be wrong. I'll stick with raw but require some sort of detail, roleplay explanation of what they are doing and see how it goes.

I can always tell the wizard to con save vs exhaustion if he starts spamming rituals all day or maybe have him explode cos...magic :-)

I realize that there's two more pages of postings, but I wanted to put this down before I head on out.

Why not level the playing field and expand it? As you know Divine casters that get Rituals can cast them, but they have to have the spell in one of their precious prepared slots. They don't have a book to cast them out of...

So level the playing field by saying that any class that has access to Rituals can cast them following the rule of 10m + Casting Time if the spell is prepared.

Then expand the playing field by allowing Divine casters (and Wizards out of their book) to cast unprepared rituals as 1h + Casting Time. (This is me trying to follow what you'd like. I think it's workable, or at least an 'out of the box' thought to share!)

If it were me I'd have it be 30m + Casting time for prepared, and 90m + casting time for unprepared. Regardless of how it's cast you can only do CON Mod. / day. Over that it's a DC 15 unmodified CON check or 1 level of exhaustion.

Note: Both Arcane and Divine casters that are casting an unprepared ritual do not have it prepared afterwards, and if the ritual is interrupted they have to start over.

[Nicodiemus]

And how they differ mechanically from cantrips when the time is so hand wavey? See it seems you'd have to really target the player to have something disrupt a ritual he started at what it's fair to assume was a safe time, and only takes ten minutes, with little else in the way of requirements. "You start you ritual but a kraken/octopus/mob of impeccable comic timing attacks.". Maybe you could do that once in a while.

Why is it even call a ritual..There is no ritual to it. It's just a slow spell where the time is mostly irrelevant cos it's so short, it's cast outside combat, and you aren't required to do anything ritualistic besides not break concentration....people can manage that in combat and it's only relevant if attacked etc which is unlikely cos...who rolls random encounters every ten mins and to do so seems a bit like victimising the caster... It just doesn't make sense to me as a thing.

So, in the original ad&d the # of spells per day was much greater, capping at 9 first levels but rituals and reactions and whatnot didnt exist. Rituals are a way of increasing wizard ooc utility while not overpowering their combat utility

[tsotate]

So level the playing field by saying that any class that has access to Rituals can cast them following the rule of 10m + Casting Time if the spell is prepared.

So basically, completely screwing Tomelocks over?

[Toadkiller]

I'm playing a tome warlock. There are two ways my DM has controlled rituals such that they are fun and useful, but not overpowering.

1) Doesn't dole them all out at once. I got some (I think it was 3) with the book. He "gave" me a few more at the same time in a captured spell book. I've been able to scrounge up a couple more, including sweet talking a lich into writing one down for me. (Hey, I have high CHA). So, I have enough to play with but not enough to hog the limelight too much (I hope).

2) Keeps the time pressure on. There's been several times that I would have liked to cast X but I don't have 10 minutes. So I do something else.

Bottom line - don't allow a specific ritual that breaks or damages your game. 10 minutes is fine.

That said, they can't walk fast enough to keep up with an enemy ship. Especially over difficult terrain (waves). It isn't going to do anything but add an interesting option to one naval encounter out of 10. What are you going to do when they can fly?

[E’Tallitnics]

So basically, completely screwing Tomelocks over?

No. I gave the OP an option and the basic framework of that option.

There's little sense in typing out Chapter & Verse for every conceivable Ritual caster in the PH if the basic framework is unacceptable.

[Spectre9000]

Simply being able to walk on water is by no means an OP ability and in fact can be quite the downfall in certain situations. Say you have a Tsunami, and suddenly have a massive wave rushing towards you. What happens when your floor suddenly becomes a wall that just smacked you at 50 mph? You can apply this in smaller degress, and the point still remains valid. What happens when a wave crests over you and suddenly you're in a tube of water that collapses? How does the walk on water spell handle that? The Ocean is a fickle mistress, and one we still have troubles with today even with all of our advanced technology. Some random people that just so happen to walk on it, are gonna still have a rough time if a boat can barely handle it. At the very least is should be counted as difficult terrain.

[E’Tallitnics]

What happens when a wave crests over you and suddenly you're in a tube of water that collapses? How does the walk on water spell handle that?


If you target a creature submerged in a liquid, the spell carries the target to the surface of the liquid at a rate of 60 feet per round.

I assume that applies to a creature that's already been targeted by Water Walk.

[FabulousFizban]

The rituals are all utility spells, not something you'd want to waste your slots in a "normal" adventuring game (6 combats a day). If the wizard have to use his slots for tiny hut's, detect magic, water breathing, etc then he's stuck only casting cantrips the rest of the day. (the reason they made cantrips, so the wizard wouldn't be useless/boring after casting his few big spells).

The casting time is just there so you can't active those utility in a few secondes, at will. It would lead to perma comprend language, detect magic spamming, respawning suicide familars, etc

Exactly. My bard has ritual caster (wizard list, i buy a lot of scrolls) so he can offer OoC utility & make combat choices for his actual, very limited, spell set.

[JoeJ]

So, worst case scenario. The ship goes down slowly enough that the wizard can cast Water Walk as a ritual. To make things as easy as possible for the wizard, we'll say he can recast the spell while hiking. I wouldn't rule that way, but for the sake of argument we'll allow it. Further, we'll allow that somebody made their Navigate check, so they know which way to go, and that they're traveling fast and accepting the -5 penalty to passive Perception. They'll be lucky and have no encounters. If they start off first thing in the morning, by the end of the day they can make 30 miles. When you're out at sea, that's not very far. So now what? If they stop to rest for the night, the wizard is going to have to let the spell lapse. If they continue on, they've got to start making Constitution saves every hour to avoid gaining a level of fatigue. After two failed saves, each character's speed drops by half. After five they can no longer keep moving at all. If they'd been sailing away from land for more than one day when this happened, the chances are they're not going to make it back. (Hopefully they'll find an island or something before they all die.)

[djreynolds]

The 10 min ish cast time of rituals seems very exploitable in the wrong hands. I've house ruled the cast time of a ritual is an hour to make it take a more reasonable chunk of time and tie it nicely with short rest length. Many of the spells have an hour or even 8 hour duration.

I'm not so much worried about identify and detect magic but there is a lot of ships and pirates in my campaign and water walk, level 3, 10 min cast time, 10 People affected for an hour. Cast every 50 mins and the danger of the sea is trivialised except when the wizard is asleep.
The wizard in the group is a power gamer so I can imagine these exploits being spotted with relish. He was accepting of the one hour cast time from the start. The issue comes as another pc who died is considering re rolling as a wizard and feels the restrictions are unnecessary though he is perfectly amicable about.
So I'm seeking objective opinions...thanks

Being DM is like editing a movie, writing a movie, and directing a movie. Unless it is important to the story, no cares about bathroom breaks. Sometimes long walks of hundreds of miles are done in minutes in a movie yet fierce combat and the coward's reaction are broken down in the film. One is important to the story and one is not.

Ritual spells are designed to so the game can progress and move forward. But you as DM have devised a scenario where this is important to the plot. I would just make him for this instance have to have these spells prepared.

[raspin]

I do appreciate the feedback.

As I mentioned before, the player and I agreed that rituals would be limited to the same number as the pcs proficiency per short or long rest. Also that ritual are short ceremonies were the cast time is spent focusing on it.

Re water walking, it's not the same as athletics, you can't swim so well in heavy armour, but they will have access to the spell. Whether the other ship they are attacking has a caster with dispell magic I couldn't say. Does dispell magic end water walk? If so I guess that would solve continued use if it became a real issue.

I literally have no idea what would happen to someone using water walk who was hit by a tsunami but I imagine the party would have a heavy dose of "really dm?" If ill pulled one out of my magic hat. Might be funny but I like to try and be fair and be seen to be fair.

Those flying bird things, I'm not sure they can wear armor when they fly so I suppose that makes them a bit less terrifying.

[RickAllison]

I do appreciate the feedback.

As I mentioned before, the player and I agreed that rituals would be limited to the same number as the pcs proficiency per short or long rest. Also that ritual are short ceremonies were the cast time is spent focusing on it.

Re water walking, it's not the same as athletics, you can't swim so well in heavy armour, but they will have access to the spell. Whether the other ship they are attacking has a caster with dispell magic I couldn't say. Does dispell magic end water walk? If so I guess that would solve continued use if it became a real issue.

I literally have no idea what would happen to someone using water walk who was hit by a tsunami but I imagine the party would have a heavy dose of "really dm?" If ill pulled one out of my magic hat. Might be funny but I like to try and be fair and be seen to be fair.

Those flying bird things, I'm not sure they can wear armor when they fly so I suppose that makes them a bit less terrifying.

Aarakocra can wear leather armor. Stick them as a Bladesinger or a monk for some higher AC. As for the tsunami, that's why you use foreshadowing. Communicate to the players that they can see sharks circling the water, or that stormclouds appear to be coming from the horizon. Boom, the players now have no excuse not to expect Water Walk to potentially end badly. Sharks encourage them not to attempt it in the first place and the storm basically says "Hey, you have until this mass of clouds arrive to figure out a way off this liquid!

Compared to the foreshadowing you can ham up with a naval campaign, an enemy caster who both sees the water-walkers and prioritizes them for Dispel Magic actually seems more contrived than the environmental hazards, unless you foreshadowed that too.

[JoeJ]

Compared to the foreshadowing you can ham up with a naval campaign, an enemy caster who both sees the water-walkers and prioritizes them for Dispel Magic actually seems more contrived than the environmental hazards, unless you foreshadowed that too.

I would say that just letting the PCs know that there might be enemy spellcasters is sufficient foreshadowing for Dispel Magic. It's far too obvious a tactic to expect the other side to forget about.

[raspin]

I'd like to think someone would notice a squad of people walking toward them in the ocean lol but yes. It depends how frequent wizards are on board is. They would be useful to aid defence and as weapons but I'd imagine they might not be overly keen. Maybe a nations big military vessels might have a ships wizard.

[djreynolds]

I'd like to think someone would notice a squad of people walking toward them in the ocean lol but yes. It depends how frequent wizards are on board is. They would be useful to aid defence and as weapons but I'd imagine they might not be overly keen. Maybe a nations big military vessels might have a ships wizard.

You know, people live in this world you created. Which is very cool. I would suspect many of them would have access to water breathing, which is a ritual spell also, perhaps even in a potion form for contingency purposes. Many would have the sailor background, athletics for swimming and live in leather armor, you will drown in plate armor in ocean.

So incorporate water breathing, selling potions of it could be a good source of income. I would suspect many players would take the magic initiate or ritual caster to get access to spell. Spells like levitate and fly and misty step and dimension door are all good contingency spells to have prepared. Rope trick. Wall of Ice, fabricate.

[raspin]

A potion of last gasp (water breathing) would be quite sought after though very expensive if 5e magic rarity is a guide. The PCS only just dinged 4 so I'm keeping magic items and such few and far between for the time being.

I like the idea of some old hermit/hag existing on a large barge/raft drifting around at sea selling potions and items of dubious quality to passing merchants and sailors. Maybe she's a sea hag or similar. Her craft looks less than robust enough to survive in a storm which might be a hint that all is not what it seems. It's thrown together from bits of wrecks. Maybe she somehow had a hand in their demise. Something like that.

[djreynolds]

A potion of last gasp (water breathing) would be quite sought after though very expensive if 5e magic rarity is a guide. The PCS only just dinged 4 so I'm keeping magic items and such few and far between for the time being.

I like the idea of some old hermit/hag existing on a large barge/raft drifting around at sea selling potions and items of dubious quality to passing merchants and sailors. Maybe she's a sea hag or similar. Her craft looks less than robust enough to survive in a storm which might be a hint that all is not what it seems. It's thrown together from bits of wrecks. Maybe she somehow had a hand in their demise. Something like that.

You've created a cool world, but some things in would become a functional part of it. Stuff like water walk and water breathing "might" be more readily available is the oceanic environment and stuff like arrows may be more expensive. Its your world, you will have to make the tweaks.

[Spectre9000]

Since you're so caught up with Water Walking and rituals, for your campaign, I'd just make a Water Genasi and not worry about it. I don't care about water at that point. Furthermore, if I wanted to go Wizard, I could just use the Shape Water cantrip and freeze me a path to walk on as I walked across the ocean. At higher levels, a wizard druid or cleric can cast control weather to have their path preceded by an Arctic Cold Blizzard to freeze over the water so they can walk on it. There are several ways to get around you trying to prevent them walking on the surface of water, many of which are more cheesy than Water Walking.

[Alejandro]

Now you're being silly and putting ideas forward that are not mine as if I suggested them. It's not magic that is the issue. I explained why water walking makes the type of scenario we are in less EPIC. I'm sure someone reasonable who was playing a pirate campaign would at least concede it might alter the dynamic and feel; and the perceived threat of being on a ship at sea. The discussion was specifically about rituals and water walk is one. An earlier post mentioned how it might be kept up on a long voyage for long periods. The issue is not the boats, and their vulnerability.

Someone else mentioned fireballs and why am I not concerned about them. I answered. They are weapons, the threat still remains the same and actually fireballs in many ways could be seen like cannons. Its not that ships shouldn't be damaged, its that it should feel a bit dangerous to be on them. Feel free to tell my why that is incorrect.

Yes, magic can breaks many things. One day someone will change something in their campaign magic breaks that they don't wish to live with, until then i guess we are all stuck with the raw gospel. We wait with anticipation for that homebrew pioneer.

I did not, in fact, present anything as if you suggested it. :) I just named several other applications of magic that will be far more disruptive or destructive in an ocean going setting, but that you for some reason don't seem as concerned about. In fact, for fun, let's look at all the third level wizard spells that might get used by a clever wizard traveling by ship or being upset at other ships :)

Animate Dead? With enough prep time and bones (and for extra safety, a sealed lower hold) you've got a whole crew of rowers for your ship that never need to eat or drink, or even get tired. They won't even drown if the hold gets some water in it!
Fireball? Obviously. Even one of these to the sails and rigging of a ship may render it completely disabled.
Fly? Your PCs are Peter Pan.
Gaseous Form? The gaseous PC treats liquids as solid surfaces, so you've got an hour of 'water walking' plus the bonus of essentially being invisible if there's any current weather at sea at all, as no one will pick out the small, misty cloud. Bonus points for going right through the side of an enemy ship to commit shenanigans once inside.
Glyph of Warding? Well, if you can infiltrate an enemy ship (at sea or not) you can leave an awful surprise for whomever opens the next barrel of hardtack. Fireball in the hold, anyone? :) And, of course...a wizard could place a glyph of warding on a small wristband, tie the spell Water Breathing to it, and give one to each party member (or the whole crew, if there's enough money and time) with the instruction that if you fall in the water and get in trouble, tear the wristband off, which conveniently is the trigger for the stored spell. :) Or hell, tie Fly to the wristband, now you can Fly back up onto the ship you fell from.
Lightning Bolt? See Fireball, though slightly less (or more) effective depending on how wet everything is.
Major Image? Too many to count.
Sending? Now your ship has a world-range radio, and they can answer, too.
Sleet Storm? Great on ship fire extinguisher.

[CantigThimble]

Just a nitpick Alejandro, Glyph of Warding stops functioning when moved more than 10 feet from it's casting location.

[Alejandro]

Just a nitpick Alejandro, Glyph of Warding stops functioning when moved more than 10 feet from it's casting location.

Good catch! I'm wrong there.

[raspin]

I
Animate Dead? With enough prep time and bones (and for extra safety, a sealed lower hold) you've got a whole crew of rowers for your ship that never need to eat or drink, or even get tired. They won't even drown if the hold gets some water in it!
Fireball? Obviously. Even one of these to the sails and rigging of a ship may render it completely disabled.
Fly? Your PCs are Peter Pan.
Gaseous Form? The gaseous PC treats liquids as solid surfaces, so you've got an hour of 'water walking' plus the bonus of essentially being invisible if there's any current weather at sea at all, as no one will pick out the small, misty cloud. Bonus points for going right through the side of an enemy ship to commit shenanigans once inside.
Glyph of Warding? Well, if you can infiltrate an enemy ship (at sea or not) you can leave an awful surprise for whomever opens the next barrel of hardtack. Fireball in the hold, anyone? :) And, of course...a wizard could place a glyph of warding on a small wristband, tie the spell Water Breathing to it, and give one to each party member (or the whole crew, if there's enough money and time) with the instruction that if you fall in the water and get in trouble, tear the wristband off, which conveniently is the trigger for the stored spell. :) Or hell, tie Fly to the wristband, now you can Fly back up onto the ship you fell from.
Lightning Bolt? See Fireball, though slightly less (or more) effective depending on how wet everything is.
Major Image? Too many to count.
Sending? Now your ship has a world-range radio, and they can answer, too.
Sleet Storm? Great on ship fire extinguisher.

Ok, sorry, I didn't mean to seem grumpy. Let's have a look...

Animate Dead. ..turn dead. There is a long old thread somewhere on the pros and cons of this but I can't recall where I read it. None the less a good cleric might be a fly in the ointment. I'm not sure how many you can controls for how long but I'm sure there is a limit to how many you can actually command at once. The ones not controlled might not choose to row. I'd have to research the specifics but an undead rowed longboat with some sort of greater undead marshalling them like galley slaves would be a cool encounter.Were off Calimshan so maybe a slight ancient Egypt feel to the boat.

Fireball, not massive damage to a ship with more than one mast about the same as the bigger catapults/ballistas but limited to slots not ammo. It's range is 150ft which is shortish for sea combat. It'd be effective for starting fires but the crew should be trying to put them out unless they are very dozey or thin on the ground. Similar to a large deck catapult firing burning ammo,;less damage and range but more accurate so not the beat all it would appear but an effective weapon. Good for crew I'd imagine, especially an enemy crew bunched at one side of the ship waiting to board or repel. Very nice shock.id probably save them for this. What happens to a Fireball at 151 feet?

Fly, could be cool, go for the rigging. Makes you a beacon of a target...I suppose, like water walking, assault benefits would depend on how many crew were on the other ship. If you fly or walk over in a group of 20 to face 200 pirates with nothing much to do but target you then it's still a big ask to be effective. I think I'll use something akin to stands in "when armies clash". Reading your post has me thinking things work better, the nautical feel is more prevalent, and things are more balanced with bigger crew numbers. Then some attrition is still needed in the traditional style and water walkers and flyers become special forces for tactical use when the time is right.

Thunderbolt, how larger area of sea would a thunderbolt electrify? That could be the best anti water walker defence since dispell magic.

Sleet Storm vs Fireball/catapult fires....

It's all going rock, paper scissors.

[Regitnui]

Sleet Storm vs Fireball/catapult fires....

It's all going rock, paper scissors.

Pretty much any magic in a conflict is just seeing who has the better selection of spells.

[JackPhoenix]

If they are just sailing around, not in combat, not in a storm or anything, why does it matter if they have Water Walk on? It's like bringing fire extinguisher with you all the time in case the house starts burning.

If they are in combat or a hurricane or something (the moments that are actually depicted in the game, and the only time the spell is useful), they may not have time and/or the option to concentrate to cast the ritual.

Walking ship to ship...the ships won't stop just because you've just jumped overboard. Any but the calmes sea would be difficult terrain, slowing the characters down...good luck catching up, or climbing aboard without getting smacked by the ship's hull. It would be viable only over short distances or docked or sail-less ships, and there are other options then walking in that case.

Other things were already mentioned, I won't repeat them.

[raspin]

If they are just sailing around, not in combat, not in a storm or anything, why does it matter if they have Water Walk on? It's like bringing fire extinguisher with you all the time in case the house starts burning.

If they are in combat or a hurricane or something (the moments that are actually depicted in the game, and the only time the spell is useful), they may not have time and/or the option to concentrate to cast the ritual.

Walking ship to ship...the ships won't stop just because you've just jumped overboard. Any but the calm sea would be difficult terrain, slowing the characters down...good luck catching up, or climbing aboard without getting smacked by the ship's hull. It would be viable only over short distances or docked or sail-less ships, and there are other options then walking in that case.

Other things were already mentioned, I won't repeat them.

Catching ships in combat...

The fastest ship in the dmg is the galley at 4 mph. 5280ft is a mile so x 4 for 4 miles, divided by 60 for minutes and divided by 10 for 6 second intervals. A galley moves at 35 feet a round. Now that would, I assume, be subject to water/wind conditions too.

A warship only moves at 2.5 mph. That's only 22 feet a round. That definitely would be affected by unfavourable wind too.

The longboat is 3 mph and all others are slower than the warship.

Now an average PC moves 30 feet and can dash for 30 more. Water walk says "can move across any liquid surface....as if it were solid ground. It doesn't mention difficult terrain, but its a reasonable assumption, but even at half speed....they can still dash and make ground on a war ship moving away from them at top speed....and in ship battles they are more likely to be moving around to get weapons facing targets and having to sometimes steer in less then optimal directions with regard to wind.

Now I'm not suggesting PCs can indefinitely chase ships across the ocean but, as raw, in combat, an average PC is faster than the DMG ships except the galley and then only if they move at half speed due to terrain, or don't dash, and assuming the galley is moving away and also assuming the ship is able to achieve top speed.

"Good luck catching them up" I think the ship would need good luck to get away in combat...they turn like boats and are slower per raw as they can't dash.

Getting on the ship may be problematic, especially with a large crew waiting. I think the danger of being smacked by the hull would require quite rough seas or standing in front of the ship. I suppose it would depend what they planned to do when they reached it.

Either way, it's in my game, as posted previously, and I'm sure it will be fine. I have a better idea how to handle it, and why it won't cause issues, thanks to people's replies i've read throughout the thread but it's nice to chew the theoretical fat.

Thanks

[Segev]

I think the ship would need good luck to get away in combat...they turn like boats

That is the most literally accurate way I have ever seen that turn of phrase used. Well done!