Dragon Magic, Incarnum, and Tome of Magic - what is important to know

[Willie the Duck]

So, here's the deal: My group checked out of 3e for a decade right around the time o when Dragon Magic, Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Battle, and Tome of Magic came into being. We're back, having decided that we want to play D&D again, and deciding on 3e as the edition to go back to. We've integrated ToB into our games, and are ready to look at the other late 3e books. However, they just seem like massive tasks to undertake and integrate and we are running into inertia just thinking about the task. So, for those who have been using them for a decade:
What's the initial thing to take away from each of these?
What options do they open up?
What's broken (positively or negatively)?
What feats, PrCs and options are useful, and what is basically book padding (all of the splats have plenty of that, we all know it)?
What basic builds have people been doing for ten years that work?
What works best to include with PCs that want to dip into these books, not be a complete incarnum guy or whatever?

Our target power is tier 2-3, or 1 if it doesn't dominate. Thanks in advance!

[Pluto!]

Magic of Incarnum mixes the worst-written magic system in the game with the least usable indexing of abilities, unavoidable type-stacking beancounting, bad art and the most embarrassingly poorly-flavored in-game justification for any subsystem. But once you get past the god-awful presentation (and someone sucks up a couple hours of work to put the soulmelds into a usable spreadsheet), the rules are kind of neat and let users do some unique things with a nifty resource allocation minigame

Tome of Magic adds three new magic systems - one that combines the weakest points of the Favored Soul and vancian casting mechanics, one skillbased system that's numerically flawed to the point of being more a punchline than a viable game entity, and one that does something interesting with Faustian pacts.

Dragon Magic has a lot of content entries for a lot of classes (including Complete Series base classes), but not very much of it is useful unless you're really into breaking Sorcerers further, reflavoring your Warlock or making your Bard sing so hard that people's swords catch on fire.

Of them, I'd recommend browsing through MoI and giving Totemist a shot in one of your games before deciding on MoI's purchase, then reading through ToM to see what the hubbub's about and buying the third-party Secrets of Pact Magic instead, because it takes the one good part of ToM, extrapolates it way further, goes way deeper, and indexes things in a much more usable way.

[Cosi]

What's the initial thing to take away from each of these?

Dragon Magic - It's another book about dragons. I don't remember it having any options you really care about, except a few of the spells. arcane spellsurge is one of the few cases where Sorcerers are legitimately better than Wizards as it is much easier for them to abuse it, thanks to their jacked up metamagic mechanics. There's also some kind of pact deal for Sorcerers, which is probably crappy (because you get a fixed list of SLAs picked by Wizards), but might be broken (because maybe one of those lists has wish).

Magic of Incarnum - You get a pool of points which you get to put in various piles to make some of your numbers modestly large. That's about it. There are a couple of feats that probably power up some particular build, and some spells that let you do WIS damage (which kills some arbitrary subset of monsters for no good reason). The Incarnate and Soulborn are bad. The Totemist is okay, but much less powerful and less interesting than the Druid.

Tome of Magic - Tome of Magic is (disturbingly literally) three books stapled together. Two of those books are steaming piles (the one about shadows and the one about names). The other one is merely pretty bad. The Binder can sort of keep up if he puts all the vestiges that grant sneak attack in a pile and pretends he's a Rogue (Beheld did an analysis somewhere), but is otherwise underwhelming. The Anima Mage PrC is cool, and as a variety of early entry tricks that allow it to run the gamut from "terrible" to "above average".


What options do they open up?

Dragon Magic allows you to make your characters way more into dragons than they normally would be. Magic of Incarnum allows you to manage fiddly piles of tokens to get large, but not impressively so, bonuses. Tome of Magic allows you to suck while chanting nonsense (actual advice for Truenamer players).


What's broken (positively or negatively)?

Most of the classes (with the exception of caster PrCs that don't cost CL, maybe a pouncing Totem Rager) are too weak. Truenamer is mechanically nonfunctional, also gets at-will gate at 20th. Almost all of them suffer from not having nearly enough abilities.


What feats, PrCs and options are useful, and what is basically book padding (all of the splats have plenty of that, we all know it)?

Off the top of my head:

Good:
-ToM: Anima Mage is a free metamagic trick plus some minor abilities.
-ToM: I assume there's something you care about it the binding you can pick up from feats.
-MoI: Various feats let you pick up soulmelds which counter obscure and sometimes lethal things.
-MoI: You can do a bunch of WIS damage (drain?) with the spells, which will sometimes matter.
-MoI: Totemists can do respectable damage.
-MoI: If you want to get skill numbers that are "pretty big", you can do that with Incarnate.
-DM: Some of the spells are nice. If your DM lets you write your own Dragonpact, that is somewhere between "good" and "insane", depending on how much you cheese it.

Filler:
-ToM: 99% of things that aren't binding.


What basic builds have people been doing for ten years that work?

Barbarian 2/Totemist 8/Totem Rager 10 is probably a decent melee build. Haven't run the numbers though.
Wizard 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10 is a theurge which is basically okay. You can drop the Binder levels to zero with some feats.
Dipping Incarnate in a skill Rogue build is probably not terrible, particularly if there's some way of getting easy essentia I've forgotten.


What works best to include with PCs that want to dip into these books, not be a complete incarnum guy or whatever?

All of those books have feats that allow you to get access to some situationally useful trick from their magic system. Often it can provide easy access to whatever random ability you're looking for.

[Red Fel]

So, here's the deal: My group checked out of 3e for a decade right around the time o when Dragon Magic, Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Battle, and Tome of Magic came into being. We're back, having decided that we want to play D&D again, and deciding on 3e as the edition to go back to. We've integrated ToB into our games, and are ready to look at the other late 3e books. However, they just seem like massive tasks to undertake and integrate and we are running into inertia just thinking about the task. So, for those who have been using them for a decade:
What's the initial thing to take away from each of these?
What options do they open up?
What's broken (positively or negatively)?
What feats, PrCs and options are useful, and what is basically book padding (all of the splats have plenty of that, we all know it)?
What basic builds have people been doing for ten years that work?
What works best to include with PCs that want to dip into these books, not be a complete incarnum guy or whatever?

Our target power is tier 2-3, or 1 if it doesn't dominate. Thanks in advance!

Well, let's go through each, shall we?
Magic of Incarnum: As Pluto! mentions, it suffers from truly terrible editing. However, once you get past that, it creates tremendous versatility, even for a small dip. Incarnum builds on their own aren't generally powerful, but in combination with other classes, you can get some fantastic effects. Also, this book enjoyed two web enhancements - one for Psionics (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), and one for Draconic Soulmelds (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4). As for your questions:
Initial takeaway: Be sure to remember that soulmelds are Con-based, and that there is a difference between your essentia pool and essentia capacity. Remember that different meldshaping classes progress at different rates, so for example your Totemist and Incarnate levels won't stack for purposes of certain meldshaping functions. And remember that, in many instances, a magic item can fill a slot and do the job better.
Options: Incarnum gives classes versatility without monetary cost. Flight, miss chance, tactical teleportation, improved detection - the sort of things you'd find on the Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), and soulmelds let you have them. Better still, you gain access to all of a class' soulmelds at first level, meaning that a dip is enough to give you this versatility, and you can swap out soulmelds on a day-to-day basis, guaranteeing you the tools for the task at hand.
Broken: Soulborn is an even worse Paladin. And the downside to soulmelds is that they progress with essentia invested, which generally requires you to take more meldshaper levels. And while a dip gives you access to all of the soulmelds, it doesn't give you access to all at once - your melds shaped and bound are limited, as are your available chakra binds. So it's a trade-off. Also, the Open X Chakra feats are confusing (don't you still need meldshaper levels to be able to use it?) and poorly worded.
Useful: Shape Soulmeld is a great feat for almost anybody. Soul Manifester is an impressively powerful psionic/meldshaper theurge class. Draconic Soulmelds are incredibly potent for a natural weapons beast. Ironsoul Forgemaster is... well, have a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344798-Soul-and-Steel-A-Guide-to-the-Ironsoul-Forgemaster-%28WIP-PEACH%29).
Builds: Go read a handbook. There are too many to list. (I'm a fan of Totemist/Warblade for natural weapons destruction, though.)
Dips:1-3 levels of Incarnate gives you plenty of power. 2 levels of Totemist gives you the Totem Chakra. 2 levels of Chaotic Evil Soulborn gives you immunity to Str penalties, making a Tibbit a deadly kitty. (An exception to the "Soulborn sucks" rule.)
Tome of Magic: This is really three smaller books, on three smaller systems - Truespeech, Binding, and Shadow Magic. Truespeech is terrible; it requires you to optimize your entire build around a skill check. Truenamer 20 is an amazing class, but until you get there it actually gets weaker as it levels, which is just painful. Shadow Magic, as written, is a ghastly mess. Binding, however, is versatile and fun, a lot like Incarnum - in fact, an Incarnate/Binder/Chameleon is a character who can pretty much be anything from one day to the next.
Initial takeaway: Truenamer punishes multiclassing and requires absolute optimization of the Truespeech check. Shadow Magic requires adherence to paths to get anything done. Binding requires a check at the beginning of the day to pick from a selection of power packs, which give you at-will and passive abilities throughout the day, plus a little roleplaying hook.
Options: All of the subsystems introduced in ToM are designed to add at-will abilities to your arsenal. They do so with varying degrees of success.
Broken: Truenamers suck. Terribly. If you don't optimize your skill check, your powers fail. If you use them too often, your powers fail. Shadowcasters underwhelm. The system was actually disavowed by one of the writers, who posted his own fixes online. Most of the PrCs in the book are similarly dreadful. By contrast, a one-level dip into Binder, used to bind Naberius, can make you heal Con damage, which is amazingly powerful for a one-level dip (and a Hellfire Warlock's best friend).
Useful: A Binder dip is like an Incarnate or Totemist dip - it opens up tons of powerful and versatile options for just about any character. Melee like a monk, bluff like a face, do whatever you like, it's great. Knight of the Sacred Seal doubles down on Binder abilities.
Builds: Again, go read a handbook. I'm sure they're out there.
Dips: Truenamer and Shadowcaster are basically dip-proof - a dip is completely worthless. Binder, on the other hand, is a perfect dip option; a single level opens doors.
Dragon Magic: Unlike the other two books, DM doesn't really create new subsystems, but expands options for Dragons and the Dragon-related. As Pluto! notes, it's basically just a book of new class features, feats, and spells. It does, however, offer Dragonblooded races and feats, creating exciting new options.
Initial takeaway: Yo dawg, we heard you liked Dragons, so we put Dragons in your adventurers so you can Dragon while you adventure.
Options: Does your Sorcerer want feats? We got those. Do you want to play a more Dragon-y Elf? We got those. Does your Cleric want to worship a Dragon-god?
Broken: Dragonfire Inspiration is your Bard's new go-to feat.
Useful: Dragonfire Adept is a refluffed Warlock with a more Draconic theme. Not amazing, but fun. Dragontouched is a neat feat that opens up some interesting concepts; similarly, the Dragonblooded races have some appeal. (Some, such as the Frostblood (Half-)Orcs and Silverbrow Humans, are a strict upgrade over their mundane counterparts.)
Builds: Go read a handbook.
Dips: A 1-level DFA dip gives you an at-will breath weapon, one invocation, and the Dragontouched feat. A 3-level dip increases the damage of your breath weapon, and gives you natural armor, a second invocation, and a special effect with which you can modify your breath weapon.

As Pluto! says, Dragon Magic is really just a splatbook for existing classes; MoI and ToM introduce new stuff. Personally, I'm a bigger fan of MoI, simply because it introduces more useful stuff - really, the only stuff in ToM you're likely to use is the Binder.

[Extra Anchovies]

Tome of Magic is one chapter long, maybe two if you implement Ari Marmell's post-publication shadowcaster fixes (I'd link them, but I'm on mobile). Truenaming takes quite a bit of work to even be playable; "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was Suck" is a good overview of why and how. Pact magic is pretty good, and rather dip-friendly - some of the abilities can be picked up via feats, and there are a number of builds that can easily fit and benefit from a level of Binder.

Binders can be a bit overpowered in the first few levels, especially if they took Improved Binding (which they probably will be doing.

Magic of Incarnum is a great system, but the book doesn't explain it well and the Soulborn is CW Samurai-level bad so you should ignore that class entirely unless you're using a home brew fix. If anyone in your group is having trouble understanding how it works, here's a quick analogy:

A meldshaping character is like a spaceship from Star Trek or Faster Than Light. Their soulmelds are the ship's systems - tractor beam, shields, torpedoes, phasers, etc. Essential is the ship's power - every system is kept at the minimum necessary power (the base effects of the soulmelds), and the remaining power is allocated to whatever needs it at the time (e.g. shifting power from warp engines and scanners to shields and phasers at the start of a fight). Chakra binds are extra abilities that soulmelds can provide if you're of high enough level in a meldshaping class to unlock them.

Incarnum is incredibly dip-friendly, almost as much so as Tome of Battle. Two to four levels of Totemist can add a lot to a martial character, and one or two levels of Incarnate can add a lot to a build.

A well-built Totemist is actually good at fighting, especially if they go into Barbarian/Totem Rager or Warblade. This can feel overpowered next to, say, a fighter, but they fit in well with initiators, fixed-list casters, bards, and the like.

Necrocarnum Acolyte can be kind of OP if they have a reliable source of chickens to sacrifice, and IIRC there's a power point recharge trick that Incarnum enables, but neither of those are likely to come up unless someone's trying to abuse them.

Dragon Magic doesn't have a central mechanical system, but it has a lot of stuff for a lot of different classes.

[Psyren]

One thing I'll add to look out for (if you like that sort of thing) is their synergy with psionics. Incarnum has the most by far, while Dragon Magic has a PrC and feat here and there. ToM has a lone adaptation (Anima Psion), but also has some fun psionic vestiges online.

[daremetoidareyo]

Incarnum
This book's rules are impossible to understand without the internet to help you. Other than that, it is tons of fun, but requires some pro-active book keeping. Which we might be able to fix right off the bat.

Does anyone have a working spreadsheet of all the soulmelds, separated by incarnate/soulborn/totemist?

Red Fel is correct: soulborn blows chunks. There is a prestige class that advances your soulborn meldshaping level faster than the soulborn itself.

Whomever said that incarnate stinks was lying to you. Incarnate 20 is mediocre. Incarnate is a great chassis up to about level 8, where it starts feeling stale.

And the totemist is the reason that anyone knows about natural attacks. Totemist is fun, flavorful, and adaptable.

ToM:
I like the crappy truenamer.

3.5 seems really pre-occupied with shadows, and like all the shadow fluff, the shadowcaster is boring. And weaker than an unoptimized sorcerer. The shadow minisystem is also just a modified magic system that is more restrictive and less inspired than the stuff you see on dndwiki. But, there is apparently an online fix to some of those gripes.

That leaves the binder:
My major frustration with the book has everything to do with the vestiges. They are sorted alphabetically. Not by the level at which a binder can access them. But there is a solution to this: google "list of binder vestiges" And then assemble your own little booklet or Ebooklet of them.
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook_(3.5e_Guide)/Vestiges

Add dragon magic to your game. DFAs are your best friend for people who drop in for one session. No attack rolls, all cones. Once you get this book, you have to make a decision about what a breath weapon truly is in regards to metabreath feats, but once you decide, you open up a whole new world. It is one of those classes that is hard to mess up because you can be useful in every round of combat.

[Red Fel]

Does anyone have a working spreadsheet of all the soulmelds, separated by incarnate/soulborn/totemist?

Spreadsheet? No (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217064-Soulmeld-List-by-Class-and-Slot).

[Prime32]

There is one interesting thing in the truenaming section of ToM for non-truenamers - a martial art mastery called Word Given Form. If you have Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and 12 ranks in Truespeak and Tumble, then you gain nonmagical total concealment against the target of your Dodge feat. AFAIK it's the only book outside of Oriental Adventures to even use the martial art mechanics.

[Troacctid]

Does anyone have a working spreadsheet of all the soulmelds, separated by incarnate/soulborn/totemist?

Here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WPjKqtbtYLpf6fhKU1sj8w40E5EIN0jX2Ypdl8VTxys/edit?usp=docslist_api)

[Extra Anchovies]

There is one interesting thing in the truenaming section of ToM for non-truenamers - a martial art mastery called Word Given Form. If you have Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and 12 ranks in Truespeak and Tumble, then you gain nonmagical total concealment against the target of your Dodge feat. AFAIK it's the only book outside of Oriental Adventures to even use the martial art mechanics.

It's broken as heck, too - you can change your dodge target on any action, so it's effectively total concealment against anyone as long as you're able to act.

[Troacctid]

I'll also add that MoI has some excellent material for DMs. There are interesting monsters, NPC organizations, juicy plot hooks, maps, encounters, magical locations...all sorts of cool stuff to spice up your campaign.

[Cosi]

It's broken as heck, too - you can change your dodge target on any action, so it's effectively total concealment against anyone as long as you're able to act.

During your turn. And it (basically) requires you to be a Monk, so no one cares because you have serious trouble killing many high level enemies even if they don't attack you.

[Extra Anchovies]

During your turn. And it (basically) requires you to be a Monk, so no one cares because you have serious trouble killing many high level enemies even if they don't attack you.

Not quite. Selecting an initial target can only be done on your turn, but changing from one target to another has no such restriction:

During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action.

Also, WGF mastery doesn't really need you to be playing a monk - it can help, but more than 2 monk levels is kind of unnecessary. Here's a quick build:
Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay) Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 2
1st: Truename Training, Dodge (Human), Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk), Combat Expertise (Monk)
2nd: Monastic Training: Psychic Warrior (Monk)
3rd: Mobility, Spring Attack (Psychic Warrior)
Use the Skilled City-Dweller ACF in Cityscape to swap the PsyWar's Ride for Tumble. Of course, this gets all the feats in well before you have the necessary skill ranks, so you can shift feats down the line to make room for other stuff (like Tashalatora) and still get WGFM at level 9.

[Cosi]

Any action. The only actions you take on other peoples turns are immediate ones, of which you get one per round.

[Troacctid]

Changing the target of your Dodge feat during someone else's turn requires the Combat Defense feat or a similar ability.


Benefit: While you maintain your combat focus, you can change the target of your Dodge feat to a new opponent as an immediate action.

If you have three or more combat form feats, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC against the target of your Dodge feat.

Normal: Designating or changing the target of your Dodge feat can only be done on your turn as a free action.

[Extra Anchovies]

Any action. The only actions you take on other peoples turns are immediate ones, of which you get one per round.

Or talking - a free action that can explicitly be taken out-of-turn. Just say "no" whenever someone attacks you, and change your dodge target to them as a part of that action. Remember kids, just say "no" to being targetable!


Changing the target of your Dodge feat during someone else's turn requires the Combat Defense feat or a similar ability.

Yeah, but that's in direct contradiction to the text of the Dodge feat itself (as quoted in my previous post), and the Player's Handbook overrides as both a primary source and a more recently published source (the core books got a final reprint at the very end of 3.5, after the Rules Compendium). Combat Defense doesn't get a specific vs. general override against Dodge, either, because they're equally specific - they just happen to be contradictory.

I'll agree with you that changing Dodge targets is pretty clearly meant to be only possible on your turn, but the rules text doesn't quite have that effect without some houseruling - sensible and minor houseruling, akin to removing drown-healing, but houseruling nonetheless.

[Pluto!]

I'll agree with you that changing Dodge targets is pretty clearly meant to be only possible on your turn, but the rules text doesn't quite have that effect without some houseruling - sensible and minor houseruling, akin to removing drown-healing, but houseruling nonetheless.
So even you don't think this is how the game works. Why is this worth derailing a discussion again?

[Jormengand]

Or talking - a free action that can explicitly be taken out-of-turn. Just say "no" whenever someone attacks you, and change your dodge target to them as a part of that action. Remember kids, just say "no" to being targetable!

This is how Desiplava Ward (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?426560-Optimising-a-Disciple-of-the-Word-%28Abandon-all-hope-ye-who-enter-here%29) worked.


Fighter McFighterton: Aha! I see you, vile monk! Your fists are no match for my blade!
Desiplava Ward: I DECLARE MY DODGE ON YOU! (http://www.goblinscomic.org/02042006/)
Fighter McFighterson: Oh my god, where did she go? How did she do that? She was there, and now she's gone! I suppose she could be exactly where she was a moment ago... but oh, that's just too crazy, she's gotta be somewhere else! (https://youtu.be/mQHCEUvc4Q0?t=15m19s)
Desiplava: *Punch punch kick whack pow*
Fighter: Hmm, where could these mysterious kicks and punches be coming from? I just don't know; I just don't know at all. *Dies*.

[Âmesang]

One thing I took out of Dragon Magic… which was also in the Player's Handbook II… was the return of dual-schooled spells from earlier editions. :smalltongue: I just think they're neat, especially burst of glacial wrath; knowing the spell adds +5 to any existing (or non-existing) cold resistance the character has.

I don't think there are too many spells that have continuous effects like that.