Fighter/Sorcerer or Paladin/Sorcerer? [Random idea for a spellcasting swordsman]

[Gastronomie]

So well, I had this random idea that since the Sorcerer's Metamagic "Quickened Spell" allows you to cast a spell as a Bonus Action, it might be interesting to put this together with a Fighter or something - mainly fighting as a normal fighter, except when needed, he can use his bonus action to use some cool sorcerer spell and go control some battlefields.
In which case - which is better as the "melee" aspect, Fighter (mainly Action Surge, Maneuvers, or possibly some Eldritch Knight) or Paladin (some cool stuff with Oaths and Smites)?
Oh, and Favored Soul (though it's Unearthed Arcana as well as possibly overpowered, meaning the DM has to agree with you on using it) has Multiattack at Level 6, so you don't need to delve too far into Fighter/Paladin for it to work.

Several stuff beforehand:
Q. How does it work at low levels?
A. Only assuming it's a high-level campaign from the start, as in the case with many multiclass builds.

Q. Wouldn't that end up with a supposed "tank" with flabby HP (since most levels are gonna be in sorcerer)?
A. Option homebrew rule, "Maximum HP for all characters" (for instance, a Barbarian gains 12+CONmod HP per level, not 1d12+CONmod). Which is a pretty nice idea. That plus high Constitution scores.

Q. Why not make it an ARCHER who can also use spellcasting?
A. Because I like swords. But honestly, an archer would be better if given the right Feats and stuff.

Q. Wouldn't you need pretty darn high stats?
A. Yeah.

Well, I'm not even sure if it actually works. Has anyone ever tried it, or something similar? If so, how did it work?
Any good ideas on improvement, advice, etc? Any comments and constructive critisism greatly appreciated.

[RaynorReynolds]

I would probably do Paladin/Sorcerer to get more spell slots. As for smites, does the wording allow you to use spell slots from other classes? I would take enough Paladin to get the smites and extra attacks and then go Sorcerer the rest of the way. Their saving throw boost is a good one to grab as well.

[Talamare]

Paladin Sorcerer has basically exact same stats that a Pure Paladin want's regardless
So it's not like you need MORE stats than a normal Paladin

As well as yes, Any non-pact Spell Slot can be used for Smites

You don't end up with a Flabby Tank, because Dragon Sorcerer gets +1 HP per level. Making them effectively d8s
During Low Levels you're basically a Pure Paladin, which are incredibly strong

You don't get 5 in Paladin for the Extra Attack
You get 6 in Paladin for the Charisma bonus to Saves

[CaptAl]

Fighter 2 for action surge, plus quicken spell at sorc 3 nets you a spell of any level plus 2 cantrips (booming blade is my recommendation) at level 5. Plus a great con save regardless of which you start as.

Whereas at Paladin 2/Sorc 3 you have 4th level slots, and can cast blur, which meshes well with heavy armor. Your con save will kinda suck until Paladin 6 though, assuming Paladin 1 as your start.

Both can use the SCAG cantrips to mitigate pushing back extra attack for a while. Imagine a twinned lightning lure to pull two mooks close, followed by a quickened GFB. That's possible from Sorc level 4, so probably character level 6.

If going Paladin, I'd aim for 11 levels plus Sorc 9. That gets you Improved Divine Smite on top of your advanced spell slot progression.

If Fighter I'd probably go 6 deep for the extra attack and feat, and 14 Sorc. EK doesn't mesh super well, as it's casting is Int based. But it's totally possible to ignore your Int and just take buffs/utility with your selections. For that I'd take level 7 EK to get war magic, for a final of EK 7 / Sorc 13.

Wild magic rocks if you're melee. Who cares if you center a fireball on you if you're surrounded by baddies? Stormborn from the SCAG rocks for mobility. Draconic is kinda boring, but that extra HP/level kicks ass for a tank.

Overall, both are fun gish builds with a ton of utility and survivability. Just pick your flavor and run with it.

[brainface]

I multiclassed into sorcerer in our temple of elemental evil campaign when I started getting tired of battlemaster. (I had a Tiefling, so my charisma was oddly high.)

It's worked out... pretttyy well so far? Shield is fantastic, Jump comes up way more often than I expected it to (and scales hilariously with your strength), and though it's not come up yet I'm looking forward to the combo of careful spell + spells that restrain or create difficult terrain around the caster. Earth Tremor, Web, and Warding Wind are all pretty low level and force enemies to gang up on you and your platemail or wade through muck and mire for a round or two to get to the squishes. (This likely loses effectiveness with higher level enemies and their greater bag of tricks.)

[MBControl]

I built a straight Paladin wanting the same flexibility. I found that the Oaths created a bad base for the the agro style I wanted, until I found the Oath of the Crown from the Sword Coast Adventurers guide. A much more broad oath, that allowed for a more fightery build.

Add the Sorcery aspect to it, that could be fun.

[bid]

So well, I had this random idea that since the Sorcerer's Metamagic "Quickened Spell" allows you to cast a spell as a Bonus Action, it might be interesting to put this together with a Fighter or something - mainly fighting as a normal fighter, except when needed, he can use his bonus action to use some cool sorcerer spell and go control some battlefields.
In which case - which is better as the "melee" aspect, Fighter (mainly Action Surge, Maneuvers, or possibly some Eldritch Knight) or Paladin (some cool stuff with Oaths and Smites)?
You might as well go paladin if you only care about nova. You can stop at paladin 9 / sorcerer 5 since anything beyond won't give you more smites.

At low level such as fighter 2 / sorcerer 3, you can quicken BB/GFB 5 times per day. You are still competitive because your GFB does enough damage.

As others have said, draconic is only -1 hp per level vs fighter. I'll add that you can Dex16 / Con16 / Cha13 / 10 10 8 since you won't use your sorcerer DC.

Pure warlock is your archer equivalent, there are no ranged version of BB/GFB.

And no, you don't need any special stat really. Str10 Dex16 Con16 Int8 Wis10 Cha13 is enough, and you only need 2 ASI for Dex20.

[Citan]

So well, I had this random idea that since the Sorcerer's Metamagic "Quickened Spell" allows you to cast a spell as a Bonus Action, it might be interesting to put this together with a Fighter or something - mainly fighting as a normal fighter, except when needed, he can use his bonus action to use some cool sorcerer spell and go control some battlefields.
In which case - which is better as the "melee" aspect, Fighter (mainly Action Surge, Maneuvers, or possibly some Eldritch Knight) or Paladin (some cool stuff with Oaths and Smites)?
Oh, and Favored Soul (though it's Unearthed Arcana as well as possibly overpowered, meaning the DM has to agree with you on using it) has Multiattack at Level 6, so you don't need to delve too far into Fighter/Paladin for it to work.

Several stuff beforehand:
Q. How does it work at low levels?
A. Only assuming it's a high-level campaign from the start, as in the case with many multiclass builds.

Q. Wouldn't that end up with a supposed "tank" with flabby HP (since most levels are gonna be in sorcerer)?
A. Option homebrew rule, "Maximum HP for all characters" (for instance, a Barbarian gains 12+CONmod HP per level, not 1d12+CONmod). Which is a pretty nice idea. That plus high Constitution scores.

Q. Why not make it an ARCHER who can also use spellcasting?
A. Because I like swords. But honestly, an archer would be better if given the right Feats and stuff.

Q. Wouldn't you need pretty darn high stats?
A. Yeah.

Well, I'm not even sure if it actually works. Has anyone ever tried it, or something similar? If so, how did it work?
Any good ideas on improvement, advice, etc? Any comments and constructive critisism greatly appreciated.
Hi OP
Both are good options. It depends (as always) on how much martial on one side, spellcasting on the other side you want to be.
Also, what spells you would like to use.

1. Few spells but killer spells
If you would like to keep spellcasting for emergencies or count on it being reliant (for debuff for example), then Eldricht Fighter 11-12 / Non-favored Soul Sorcerer 9-8 is by far the best choice.
You get 3 attacks for Attack action, which on hit will inflict disadvantage against your next spell. Typically, assault a small group of enemies then quicken cast Blindness or Slow to greatly ease your allies's offense.
Or focus on one enemy to inflict Bestow Curse on him, inflicting Wis save disadvantage to enable control or other debuffs from your casters.
You still get a hefty selection of spells and spell slots to go with too.
Obviously, Favored Soul is not the best because extra attack is redundant. Wild Magic would be the best here to further ensure your spells succeed, although a classic Draconic Fire could work well also.

Another way to go at it is to use spellcasting mainly to buff you and occasionally cast utility/AOE spells.
In that case, Paladin will be the best. Either drop to 2 for just smite and protection spells or go up to 6 for amazing Aura (advised). Shadow aside, you can stop at 14 for other archetype and since get very potent features (such as Dragon Wings for Draconic).

Note on the "ensure my spell hits" part that...
1) Depending on your objective and build, Heightened Metamagic will be mandatory/useful/unnecessary.
2) If Unearthed Arcana is allowed, then Shadow is by far the best because creature near your Hound automatically has disadvantage against your spells (could make a terrific combination with Lucky feat: use a spell or ability to immobilize your target then you're golden).

Quick drafts of builds
EK Fighter 12 / Sorcerer 8 (or Fighter 11 / Sorcerer 9 if you can manage without ASI)
Start as Fighter up to 11, then Sorcerer, slip 12th Fighter when you need ASI.
Problem is, this build comes online very late. You're basically a plain EK for half of (or most of your short) carrier and unless good rolls, you'll have low INT so you'll have to wait Sorcerer levels to learn debuffs.
On the bright side, you're still an EK, and at the end, you will be able to neutralize most dangerous foes in one round.

Fighter 6 / Shadow Sorcerer 6
Concept online at level 12. Cast your Hound then cast your spells. Continue upping Sorcerer to get better control spells. You're very good against single-target.

Paladin 6 / Fire Draconic Sorcerer 6
Nice synergy between Paladin's smite spells and classic fireball and such with Draconic bonus.
You're a damage dealer, single target with smites, or crowd with fireball. Up Paladin up to 9 to grab Elemental Weapon and/or use ASI to grab Absorb Elements with Magic Initiate.

Fighter 2 / Shadow Sorcerer 18
Total theorycraft (lvl 20 + UA content) but totally nasty.
You are as resistant as a Barbarian, but you can still cast spells "at advantage" with your Hound. Single-target total killer.

EK 12 / Wild Magic Sorcerer 6 / Paladin 2
Because why not? Wonder who could resist the spells of this theorycraft build (disadvantage + wild magic + Lucky feat), and you are offensive and defensive as hell, both in sustained round (3 attacks + buffs, heavy armor + shield or buffs) and spike (smite, Shield spell and Bend luck).

My 2 cents (sorry if I missed things or made errors, it's a bit late for me right now ;)).

[AmbientRaven]

I recently played a a 2 paladin/3 Sorcorer.

It was broken. I killed a 70HP enemy in one round without breaking a sweat, whilst having 20 AC and Disadvantage on all attacks against me.

If you go FS or SS you will be even more ridiculous as well.

[TheRedTemplar]

I recently played a a 2 paladin/3 Sorcorer.

It was broken. I killed a 70HP enemy in one round without breaking a sweat, whilst having 20 AC and Disadvantage on all attacks against me.

If you go FS or SS you will be even more ridiculous as well.

I can totally vouch for this. Paladin Sorcerer is beyond amazing. I'm playing one myself (OoD Paladin 5/Draconic Sorcerer (Red) 3), and I was lucky enough to get Dwarven Plate and a +2 Shield (Defense Fighting Style makes my base AC 25, or 30 if I use shield, combined with disadvantage from blur/prot. from good and evil).

You wanna know how much damage you can dish out?

Me and my party killed an Ancient Red Dragon.

At level six.

I can tell you now there's quite the story behind that. But regardless, my point stands. This multiclass option is just amazing. And extremely fun. There's a lot of ways you can play it (with all the pally and sorc subclasses that have come out, after all) and there's a lot of ways to make it work. Seriously, give it a shot. You won't regret it.

[Talamare]

I can totally vouch for this. Paladin Sorcerer is beyond amazing. I'm playing one myself (OoA Paladin 5/Draconic Sorcerer (Red) 3), and I was lucky enough to get Dwarven Plate and a +2 Shield (Defense Fighting Style makes my base AC 25, or 30 if I use shield, combined with disadvantage from blur/prot. from good and evil).

You wanna know how much damage you can dish out?

Me and my party killed an Ancient Red Dragon.

At level six.

I can tell you now there's quite the story behind that. But regardless, my point stands. This multiclass option is just amazing. And extremely fun. There's a lot of ways you can play it (with all the pally and sorc subclasses that have come out, after all) and there's a lot of ways to make it work. Seriously, give it a shot. You won't regret it.

Yea...
An Ancient Red Dragon would Fire Breath once and kill your entire party.
90ft cone Dex24 Save that deals 26d6 damage

[TheRedTemplar]

Yea...
An Ancient Red Dragon would Fire Breath once and kill your entire party.
90ft cone Dex24 Save that deals 26d6 damage

As I said.

There's quite a story behind how we won that fight.

It involves a series of kingdom-saving events, the assassination of a succubus posing as a queen, cultists, political favors, an army of duergar stone guards, morbid obesity, ironic echoes, an onslaught of crippling status conditions, and of course, plenty of cheese (no, not the dairy kind).

If anyone wants to hear it maybe I'll make a thread for it.

[Paeleus]

So well, I had this random idea that since the Sorcerer's Metamagic "Quickened Spell" allows you to cast a spell as a Bonus Action, it might be interesting to put this together with a Fighter or something - mainly fighting as a normal fighter, except when needed, he can use his bonus action to use some cool sorcerer spell and go control some battlefields.
In which case - which is better as the "melee" aspect, Fighter (mainly Action Surge, Maneuvers, or possibly some Eldritch Knight) or Paladin (some cool stuff with Oaths and Smites)?
Oh, and Favored Soul (though it's Unearthed Arcana as well as possibly overpowered, meaning the DM has to agree with you on using it) has Multiattack at Level 6, so you don't need to delve too far into Fighter/Paladin for it to work.

Several stuff beforehand:
Q. How does it work at low levels?
A. Only assuming it's a high-level campaign from the start, as in the case with many multiclass builds.

Q. Wouldn't that end up with a supposed "tank" with flabby HP (since most levels are gonna be in sorcerer)?
A. Option homebrew rule, "Maximum HP for all characters" (for instance, a Barbarian gains 12+CONmod HP per level, not 1d12+CONmod). Which is a pretty nice idea. That plus high Constitution scores.

Q. Why not make it an ARCHER who can also use spellcasting?
A. Because I like swords. But honestly, an archer would be better if given the right Feats and stuff.

Q. Wouldn't you need pretty darn high stats?
A. Yeah.

Well, I'm not even sure if it actually works. Has anyone ever tried it, or something similar? If so, how did it work?
Any good ideas on improvement, advice, etc? Any comments and constructive critisism greatly appreciated.

This might sound crazy, but why not all three? I'm a fan of working with the dm to give Seth to my multiclassing shenanigans. I am playing a very similar character at the moment in a homebrew campaign.

I started fighter, pulled some story stuff to mc into wild magic sorcerer. I plan on throwing 4 levels of paladin (Devotion) to increase my spell slots, get smites, paladin spells, and the extra fighting style. The final goal - 7 battle master/ 9 wild magic sorc/4 paladin. The progression is little wonky, but gives a feel of my character gaining control over his newfound magical powers. 1 level in fighter, then a level in sorc, take fighter to 5, then sorc to 6, 2 levels in fighter to get to 7, 4 levels in pally, then finish out with sorc. I'm still toying with this progression, but that's what I'm feeling at the moment.

HP doesn't matter due to your ungodly AC via plate, shield, evasive footwork, and shield of faith if your concentration slot is free.

A bow is kinda out due to the fact you can't apply Divine Smite to range attacks.

If your trying to chase max damage, I'd say go for GWF as your fighter fighting style and grab Defense fighting style from paladin to get that AC bonus.

I have been the king at screwing the opposition when it comes to fisticuffs.

[djreynolds]

I find sorcerer can really work with any class, even a wizard can dip sorcerer for spell points and metamagic. And with awesome cantrips out there, like the new booming blade and green flame blade, etc... what do you need with your other attack, honestly?

For me an eldritch knight is using spells to augment his martial prowess with defense and some useful AOEs. That way he can get a big great sword and swing away with stoneskin up and mirror image ( extra pick) or haste or whatever. He can even be an awesome archer. But the kicker is, he is still a fighter. IMO, an eldritch knight multiclassing with wizard or whatever, sorcerer, is better of taking 3 levels, because you can't use these cantrips on every attack anyhow, but a caster will get plate armor, weapon bond, and con saves if selected first, pretty good. And you want those high level spells.

Now a paladin can multiclass, even with wizard though sorcerer is better fit, because he is looking to land smites and the extra spell slots and defense can really be a boon to him. And that extra attack is insurance when that first attack misses, more than the eldritch knight who can really just focus on strength.

For an archer, the eldritch knight coupled with cleric can spam bless and coupled with archery style can land sharpshooter all day long. And have a 14 wisdom.

So the question is, do you want to optimize this guy or have fun. I would go bladesinger, you get that extra attack and full spell casting and very good defense when needed. Lots of utility, yet for some reason, because of thar extra attack you can still feel like a swordsman.

The thing I like about paladin/sorcerer is that with your high saves you can twin stuff like haste on your fellow tank and wreak havoc and still have plenty of slots to smite with. Grab resilient con and war caster, now you can spend all day in melee get AoO with cantrips, but still smite. You have bless, and access to mirror image and a great spell DC vs enemy saves. And you have a real ranged presence as well with cantrips.

So EK, I would just go 3 levels as a multiclass with sorcerer, or wizard. Paladin I would go 12/8 for the extra radiant damage. If you want a spell caster with an extra attack, go bladesinger.

[wunderkid]

I was looking at building a character along a similar theme (a melee caster). This thread has opened up a whole new path for me.

So quick question. Could you when facing two targets, booming blade, twin it. Action surge, booming blade, twinned again and then quickened spell, booming blade and once again twinned? For 5 sorc points?

If so that makes for some pretty dang impressive melee prowess.

(also thunder damage is completely separate to lightning damage correct? So no lightning dragon, booming blade, elemental affinity shenanigans?)

[Gastronomie]

I had only heard of the Booming and Green-Flame Blade Cantrips, but googled them up and yeah, these are hella amazing. Thanks!
And true about LV6 Paladin's Aura too.

I personally would like to create a Paladin Sorcerer as of now, but might go for other stuff in the future too. What seems extra nice about Paladin is that while the Multiclass Spell Slot rules often give you spell slots of levels for which you don't have actual spells, you could always use them for Smite fuel (not just "higher versions of normal spells").

The original idea was that I felt that, even if I made a Warrior, "attack every turn" seemed a bit too one-patterned. But never expected this much feedback and tons of various ideas - it seems multiclass builds open up lots of interesting ideas and strategies (as well as some unique backstories for characters).

Thanks guys! (Though it's certainly fine to keep on posting - more like, please still give me ideas and stories if you have any!)

EDIT: Assume I'm going Paladin/Sorcerer, "which should I start my first level as"?

If I choose Paladin, I can get Heavy Armor proficiency (and a bit higher HP), but I don't get Constitution Saving Throw proficiency.
If I chooose Sorcerer, I can get Constitution Saving Throw proficiency, but I don't get Heavy Armor proficiency.

Which is generally better?

[Talamare]

I doubt it matters

You need a feat to get Con Saves
You need a feat to get Heavy Armor

Unless you're willing to get 14 Dex and use Medium and have 1 less AC than a Heavy Armor
or you could use a Feat to get improved Medium armor if you have 16 Dex, but having any Dex makes you even MADder than usual

Edit - Actually, getting a Feat to get Con saves is better, You end up with 3 saves. There isn't the same benefit for the Heavy Armor feat

[Talamare]

I personally would like to create a Paladin Sorcerer as of now, but might go for other stuff in the future too. What seems extra nice about Paladin is that while the Multiclass Spell Slot rules often give you spell slots of levels for which you don't have actual spells, you could always use them for Smite fuel (not just "higher versions of normal spells").

You really can't use it as Smite fuel
Smite maxes out at 5d8, meaning 4th level spells.
If you go 6p/14s, you will have 7th level Sorcerer spells and a 9th level spell cast

Edit - Well, technically a Sorcerer can convert them into Sorcery Points which can THEN be converted into Smites
A level 9 spell could become a lv4 & lv2 smite, or 3 lv2 smites

[djreynolds]

I was looking at building a character along a similar theme (a melee caster). This thread has opened up a whole new path for me.

So quick question. Could you when facing two targets, booming blade, twin it. Action surge, booming blade, twinned again and then quickened spell, booming blade and once again twinned? For 5 sorc points?

If so that makes for some pretty dang impressive melee prowess.

(also thunder damage is completely separate to lightning damage correct? So no lightning dragon, booming blade, elemental affinity shenanigans?)

I'm unsure if you can twin it, because it is attached to a weapon hitting an opponent. And thats the deal with a lot of the metamagic, its confusing.

You can twin spells that only affect one person and booming blade does, but you have to hit with an attack as well. You can quicken a spell that is one action, but you would need the ability to cast a spell and strike in the same round.

I think a valor bard/sorcerer or eldritch knight/sorcerer could perhaps cast a quickend spell and "maybe" get a booming blade hit in, AFB, I'm unsure.

[Flashy]

So quick question. Could you when facing two targets, booming blade, twin it. Action surge, booming blade, twinned again and then quickened spell, booming blade and once again twinned? For 5 sorc points?

You cannot both quicken and twin the same spell. Empower is the only metamagic that can be combined with another option.

[PeteNutButter]

Just to pile on to the Paladin/Sorcerer band wagon... I am currently playing a Paladin 2/Sorc x(7 as of this week) in our adventurers league campaign.

I am without a doubt the carry of the table. Unlike other builds I went straight into sorcerer after acquiring smite so that I can quicken things as close to my party wizard as possible. Since I have only one attack, I use Greenflame blade/booming blade often twinning BB. And I start most combats with quickened self haste to give me that attack back. My favorite is when the boss is humanoid.. quickened hold person into a GFB smite dealing 1d8 from weapon +1d8+3(draconic sorc bonus cha to fire dmg) GFB + 5d8 from fourth lvl smite DOUBLED since a held target is auto crit making it 14d8 + str + cha... and then I get my haste attack. I have ended many an encounter on round one. The party kind of hates me, except when they love me.

I can give more build details if you like. And you can totally twin a Booming Blade.

[Gastronomie]

Yeah, it seems mostly better to start Paladin - thanks guys.


Just to pile on to the Paladin/Sorcerer band wagon... I am currently playing a Paladin 2/Sorc x(7 as of this week) in our adventurers league campaign.

I am without a doubt the carry of the table. Unlike other builds I went straight into sorcerer after acquiring smite so that I can quicken things as close to my party wizard as possible. Since I have only one attack, I use Greenflame blade/booming blade often twinning BB. And I start most combats with quickened self haste to give me that attack back. My favorite is when the boss is humanoid.. quickened hold person into a GFB smite dealing 1d8 from weapon +1d8+3(draconic sorc bonus cha to fire dmg) GFB + 5d8 from fourth lvl smite DOUBLED since a held target is auto crit making it 14d8 + str + cha... and then I get my haste attack. I have ended many an encounter on round one. The party kind of hates me, except when they love me.

I can give more build details if you like. And you can totally twin a Booming Blade.

That...looks awesome. And I would definately like more details.
Also, can you then twin a Green-Flame Blade too, I assume?

And another thing: About the number of "free hands".
Since the Paladin/Sorcerer has low HP compared to normal paladins, I think he needs high AC - making holding a shield (with the longsword in the other hand) one option.
And then, the component problem with casting spells ("Somatic" and "Material").
The PH says:

If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.

A spellcaster must have a hand free to access these components, but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.

Now, the Paladin can use some emblem engraved in his armor or something for the "Material" spellcasting focus (he doesn't need a free hand - unless it's also "Somatic").
But the Sorcerer, even with his arcane focus, still needs a free hand to be allowed use of the Somatic and Material components (unless the DM allows you to have some super smexy tatoo or something as your arcane focus).

So, when using a Sorcerer spell, is it fine for the Paladin/Sorcerer to like, for instance:
(A) Tug away the shield and use a Quickned Sorcerer spell (that isn't one of the "Blade Cantrips"), then attack with a two-handed version of longsword (since he no longer holds the shield, and has already completed the somatic/material stuff required for the spell. He suffers from lower AC the next turn, but he can now use the Sorcerer LV1 spell "Shield" for when things get grim)
(B) Other version: Use a Quickened Sorcerer spell (that isn't one of the "Blade Cantrips"), attack with two-handed longsword, then equip the shield. A viable move after procedure A.
Because I think it's fine.

Now, I think I can't re-equip the shield after procedure A, since:

Your turn can include a variety of flourishes that require neither your action nor your move.
...You can also interact with one object ar feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, ar you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action.
Am I right on that too?

And,

You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands.
This might solve somatic problems, but still not material problems. So, am I right in thinking that if requires Somatic/Material components (which are most of them), I need to tug away my shield when casting Sorcerer spells?

[PeteNutButter]

Yeah, it seems mostly better to start Paladin - thanks guys.
That...looks awesome. And I would definately like more details.
Also, can you then twin a Green-Flame Blade too, I assume?

Apparently you CANT twin GFB according to Sage Advice, but it is contradictory. Basically ask your DM, it say it only "targets" one enemy so it should work but conflicting Sage Advice exists.

As for the free hands thing, I did take Warcaster. My DM ruled that if I took the feat, I am good. Otherwise the feat is essentially worthless for arcane casters. RP-wise there is little reason I couldn't affix an arcane crystal or something to my armor.

Simple work around: Use a Greatsword! It's way better and you can reroll ones and twos on your smite dice! Take your str and cha as high as possible, and a 14 con, DUMP everything else (I mean 8's, don't let me see 10s, except maybe dex). Go paladin for the first two levels, then take sorcerer and never look back. Best spells to quicken by lvl are Level 1: better off smiting; Level 2: Scorching ray, mirror image, or my fav HOLD PERSON; Level 3: HASTE, fireball; Level 4: It's still alive? Blight it I guess... It only gets worse for the enemies.

Warning, your party will hate you, unless they are optimized hard. BB twinned, Haste attack, and quickened GFB is 4 attacks (3 on one target, 1 on another next to you). You can smite on all of them. After this of course you will be asking your party for a long rest.

[Gastronomie]

I thought you couldn't use Great Weapon Fighting on your Smites... I thought I read that somewhere unless I'm wrong. In which case Dueling could be better, but I'm not sure on the GWF on smites.

And that save advice about Green-Flame is sorta weird. Just as weird as some of most of Konami's Yu-Gi-Oh rulings, if anyone knows that game and how its rulings are all messed up.

I actually am going to play this Paladin/Sorcerer as a level 3 character in a session soon, and we used rolls to get the stats - which were quite godly, with 17, 16, 15, 15, 12, 10 (before racial bonuses).

Will have to ask DM about the component problem - thanks.

[PoeticDwarf]

Paladin sorcerer is a famous build. 5 or 2 levels pally are perfect (maybe 6). It works early. First two paladin ans then sorcerer for more smites.
I prefer barb/druid but this works really well

[PeteNutButter]

I thought you couldn't use Great Weapon Fighting on your Smites... I thought I read that somewhere unless I'm wrong. In which case Dueling could be better, but I'm not sure on the GWF on smites.

And that save advice about Green-Flame is sorta weird. Just as weird as some of most of Konami's Yu-Gi-Oh rulings, if anyone knows that game and how its rulings are all messed up.

I actually am going to play this Paladin/Sorcerer as a level 3 character in a session soon, and we used rolls to get the stats - which were quite godly, with 17, 16, 15, 15, 12, 10 (before racial bonuses).

Will have to ask DM about the component problem - thanks.

Search the sage advice there are two comments specifically on that both by Mike Mearls that directly contradict each other. The one that says YES YOU CAN is the more recent though, and has the added benefit of being RAW since unlike say Savage Attacker feat the weapon style does not specify damage dice.

As for GFB... the comment that ruled you could twin Ice Knife stated that if a spell targets more than one creature(precluding it from being twinned) it would explicitly say it targets more than one. Ice knife targets on creature and does secondary AoE damage, and you can twin it. And yet GFB only "targets" one creature with a secondary damage but you can't?

As an aside I'm beginning to hate Sage Advice as it is more akin to a tyrant making rulings on a whim than a court based on intended rules and precedent.

[Gastronomie]

Well, even if it's a sage who wrote it, it's only advice. You don't necesarrily have to follow it if you're the DM. Someone with the power to negate official printed rules if the need arises shouldn't become enslaved by "advice".

While I haven't DM'd in D&D, I have in some other TRPGs, and I myself tend to be a pretty "chaotic" GM. I let ideas be stronger than dice rolls or rules/rulings. Probably a matter of personal liking though.

EDIT: If Great Weapon Fighting lets me re-roll my Smites, that's hell awesome. Will have to ask my DM.

[PeteNutButter]

EDIT: If Great Weapon Fighting lets me re-roll my Smites, that's hell awesome. Will have to ask my DM.

For rules as written it clearly does. IMO any DM that changes it is home-brewing or house-ruling. Mathing it, it only adds 1 damage per d8, hardly broken considering before smiting dueling style is just better. But its scaling could get out of hand for instance when you hit something for 14d8+11, like I did last night...:smallbiggrin:

[Citan]

Yeah, it seems mostly better to start Paladin - thanks guys.

That...looks awesome. And I would definately like more details.
Also, can you then twin a Green-Flame Blade too, I assume?

And another thing: About the number of "free hands".
Since the Paladin/Sorcerer has low HP compared to normal paladins, I think he needs high AC - making holding a shield (with the longsword in the other hand) one option.
And then, the component problem with casting spells ("Somatic" and "Material").


This might solve somatic problems, but still not material problems. So, am I right in thinking that if requires Somatic/Material components (which are most of them), I need to tug away my shield when casting Sorcerer spells?

It's best to start Paladin because you WILL want to get the Warcaster feat anyways. Advantage on concentration combined with +CHA to save should be enough in most fights.
And you get much more bang for your buck for your concept (all armors, shield, all weapons).

And Warcaster will alleviate the "keep a free hand" problem greatly, avoiding you the "Subtle Metamagic feat". You just have to keep an amulet/shield focus for Paladin and a component's pouch for Sorcerer.

As for twinning GFB, ask your DM, there are contradictions.
+: the actual attack always target only one creature, the additional damage is automatic but conditional (adjacent creature).
-: the spell can actually affect more than one creature.

I would probably allow it on my table because seems RAW to me, but both ways are valid.

As for your build, since you apparently want to go S&B (which is a pretty good choice) I would advise you to go DEX.
My build suggestion.
1. Paladin
2. Paladin
3. Sorcerer (GreenFlameBlade, Booming Blade).
Then either Paladin up to 6 (7 for ancients) to build up melee offense and get Aura, or Sorcerer up to 5 to get decent Metamagic pool and lvl3 spells.
If you plan on grabbing Haste, go Sorcerer first. Good thing is you can get Quicken and use it in difficult battles to "emulate" the Extra Attack you should have at this level if pure Pally. And you get Mirror Image or Blur that provide a better defense buff than Shield of Faith.
Best way if you feel you're good enough at hitting enemies with your attacks (= you don't need Bless to be reliable).

Otherwise, go Paladin first and consider swapping GreenFlameBlade for another cantrip (since you will probably use Attack action for mundane rounds now, and you may want to keep metamagic points to Quicken a spell or other things).
Good thing is you get Extra Attack, better hp and good 2nd level spells, in addition to Oath abilities and spells: Ancients is the best only if you go up to 7, Devotion only if you want to take care of crowds, Crown only if you want to be THE tank. Otherwise Vengeance is the best: easy to enable for a melee character and makes you an excellent BBEG striker.

Anyways, as soon as you got 6 (or 7) levels in Paladin you can focus on Sorcerer.

[Gastronomie]

As for your build, since you apparently want to go S&B (which is a pretty good choice) I would advise you to go DEX.

Oh... I totally forgot that option (rapier). Was sorta imagining my character to be holding a longsword though...will have to re-think on that. Probably better to go DEX from a "character power" viewpoint, but.

I like Casters so this time I probably will go to Sorcerer level 6 first, and then return to Paladin (the reason it's 6 and not 5 is because the DM allowed Shadow Sorcerer, which has the badass Hound ability). Thanks on the advice!

[Talamare]

I think the final question becomes, how much of each?

6p/14s aop, 9th lv slot
7p/13s oota
8p/12s asi
9p/11s pally spells
11p/9s ids
12p/8s asi

[PeteNutButter]

As for your build, since you apparently want to go S&B (which is a pretty good choice) I would advise you to go DEX.
My build suggestion.
1. Paladin
2. Paladin
3. Sorcerer (GreenFlameBlade, Booming Blade).
Then either Paladin up to 6 (7 for ancients) to build up melee offense and get Aura, or Sorcerer up to 5 to get decent Metamagic pool and lvl3 spells.
If you plan on grabbing Haste, go Sorcerer first. Good thing is you can get Quicken and use it in difficult battles to "emulate" the Extra Attack you should have at this level if pure Pally. And you get Mirror Image or Blur that provide a better defense buff than Shield of Faith.
Best way if you feel you're good enough at hitting enemies with your attacks (= you don't need Bless to be reliable).

Otherwise, go Paladin first and consider swapping GreenFlameBlade for another cantrip (since you will probably use Attack action for mundane rounds now, and you may want to keep metamagic points to Quicken a spell or other things).
Good thing is you get Extra Attack, better hp and good 2nd level spells, in addition to Oath abilities and spells: Ancients is the best only if you go up to 7, Devotion only if you want to take care of crowds, Crown only if you want to be THE tank. Otherwise Vengeance is the best: easy to enable for a melee character and makes you an excellent BBEG striker.

Anyways, as soon as you got 6 (or 7) levels in Paladin you can focus on Sorcerer.

This is all great advice, but I would caveat on two things. If you want to go dex build you are likely better off with sorcerer first, since you won't need heavy armor prof. Con save proficiency + adv on concentration saves is best. Losing concentration on your own haste is very very bad.

But for a str build go paladin for that plate and 2hander for reroll 1s + 2s on smites.

The build above is a very strong TANKY character, but if you avoid the higher levels of paladin (beyond 2) you lose some amazing defensive perks and extra attack. What do you get? You get to be only 1 level behind the party wizard in spell slots and 2 levels behind him in spells. It's really a question of how heavy you want the gish to drop. Wanna be a paladin with some tricks and a little more smiting, or be a sorcerer that can quicken a high level spell and then melee attack hard with a smite?

Also consider how high the campaign will take the characters. If you go 6 or 7 paladin, you wont have fireballs until 11th or 12th lvl. At that level the wizard is casting disintegrate. It is the safer play though, and you cannot die easily. Something about to hit you? Cast shield. Low on hp? Quickened high level cure wounds and keep swinging. Make a save? No problem.

I still prefer the heavy sorcerer build myself. You gain a ton of spells and only really lose the saving throw perk and a fw hps. I went dragon sorc though for those extra precious hps. You will definitely feel like you have a lot to do, many options of spells to quicken followed up with a melee cantrip smite. Just make sure you aren't the player that takes forever to make a decision. (What spell to quicken? Should I twin the BB? Smite? What level smite to use on both sides of the cantrip? What level smite to use on haste attack?)

[Citan]

This is all great advice, but I would caveat on two things. If you want to go dex build you are likely better off with sorcerer first, since you won't need heavy armor prof. Con save proficiency + adv on concentration saves is best. Losing concentration on your own haste is very very bad.

But for a str build go paladin for that plate and 2hander for reroll 1s + 2s on smites.

The build above is a very strong TANKY character, but if you avoid the higher levels of paladin (beyond 2) you lose some amazing defensive perks and extra attack.

I still prefer the heavy sorcerer build myself. You gain a ton of spells and only really lose the saving throw perk and a fw hps. I went dragon sorc though for those extra precious hps. You will definitely feel like you have a lot to do, many options of spells to quicken followed up with a melee cantrip smite. Just make sure you aren't the player that takes forever to make a decision. (What spell to quicken? Should I twin the BB? Smite? What level smite to use on both sides of the cantrip? What level smite to use on haste attack?)
Well, you're right on the Heavy Armor caveat, although you can technically wear it with a low STR, losing 10 feet movement.
But indeed, Paladin multiclass brings all equipment proficiencies you need so it's the best bet for a DEX melee warrior that plans on using Concentration.

As for heavy Pally build, I agree with you, but it seems that OP is keen on tanking so... :)
While it's perfectly fine to be S&B as STR build, high DEX build means easier defense in general, but also Mirror Image becomes a decent choice and Shield Master an obvious good one (since you will probably get more chances to use the "Evasion" ability). :)

[bid]

As for your build, since you apparently want to go S&B (which is a pretty good choice) I would advise you to go DEX.
Don't forget you still need Str13 to MC out of paladin.

[Drackolus]

If you're okay with using a dagger, a pure draconic sorcerer can be a gish, in a sense. Greenflame Blade with the +cha to damage is a fine replacement to multiattack. (1d8+dex)*2 vs 1d4+3d8+dex+cha on one target and 3d8+cha+cha on the second is a pretty clear improvement, and with your free draconic skin and bonus health, you can survive in melee combat, reaching 18 ac and having 1 less hp than a same-level cleric. If you're REALLY dead set on a sword (keep in mind, even a rapier is a difference of 2 damage per round with this method, or 4 if you choose to quicken a gfb), you can be an elf or variant half-elf for shortswords, or a drow and get rapiers (and some cha-based spells, but ouch that sunlight). Hell, you could just take weapon master. And a sorcerer gets plenty of defensive spells to boot.

No asi delays, no spell level delays, no missing sorcery points, no required feats, all while being respectable in melee combat.

EDIT: The reason this can be a good idea is because level 8 is all well and good, but if you're mutliclassing, you WILL be level 5 and you won't have a fireball to throw. And that horde's about to throw 15 attack rolls at people and someone's gonna drop, all because nobody had the spell that a typical party needs, and a small increase in melee capability isn't going to help very much if at all in that situation.

[Citan]

Don't forget you still need Str13 to MC out of paladin.
I never forget that, but who cares (or rather, that's so obvious I didn't feel it worth mentioning)? :)
A STR build would keep a 13/14 DEX anyways, so it's not like "reversing" the build readily increases the total points cost of the character.

And keeping a decent STR can be good for a S&B who wants to use Shield Master's shove on occasions. :)

[bid]

A STR build would keep a 13/14 DEX anyways, so it's not like "reversing" the build readily increases the total points cost of the character.
It's excessively hard to keep 4 good stats, you can barely do 16 16 14 13 9 8. And no, a Str build would have Dex10-12 which is easier to get.

I'm sure you know all this, but it should be mentioned for the others who follow this thread.

[Gastronomie]

I have a (perhaps sorta beginner-ish) question about the levels of spells a Paladin/Sorcerer can learn.

The original description in the PH about Sorcerers' spells level is that:

The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice. Each of these spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For instance, when you reach 3rd level in this class, you can learn one new spell of 1st or 2nd level.

Now, let's say a Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 3 character (whole Multiclassing Caster Level is 2/2 + 3 = 4, from the multicasting spell rules in the PH) levels up and becomes Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 character (Multiclassing Caster Level 5, now with access to Level 3 spells).

A normal Level 4 Sorcerer can't use Level 3 spells, but a Paladin2/Sorcerer 4 character has Level 3 spell slots (and the original description in the PH about Sorcerers' known spells doesn't state "Sorcerer spells"). Does this mean he can now "know" Fireball and Haste and stuff, when he reaches this particular level?

[Drackolus]

I would interpret the "as if you were a single-classed member of that class" to mean a 2 paladin 4 sorcerer would learn as if they were a 4th level sorcerer ONLY, as in a 4th level character, who would not have 3rd level slots. You could still interpret that the other way, since it isn't explicitly stated, but it also does make more sense from a balance and thematic example for what it seems to be - for example, a sorcerer 1 cleric 15 shouldn't be allowed to then take their 2nd level of sorcerer and learn meteor swarm.

[Gastronomie]

I would interpret the "as if you were a single-classed member of that class" to mean a 2 paladin 4 sorcerer would learn as if they were a 4th level sorcerer ONLY, as in a 4th level character, who would not have 3rd level slots. You could still interpret that the other way, since it isn't explicitly stated, but it also does make more sense from a balance and thematic example for what it seems to be - for example, a sorcerer 1 cleric 15 shouldn't be allowed to then take their 2nd level of sorcerer and learn meteor swarm.

That is true. Well okay then, not much of a problem anyways - thanks.

[Drackolus]

You're welcome :smallsmile:
Though, now that I think about it, I should have specified (and still should for future readers) that if you're a "single-classed member of that class," you wouldn't have those other levels in paladin, which is why you'd treat it as a 4th level character as well. If you have 4 levels in sorcerer and are a single-classed sorcerer, than you can't possibly be anything but a 4th level character (no level adjustment in 5e :smallwink:)

[choryukami]

I have a paladin/sorcerer and it rocks.
Vengeance Paladin/Wild Magic Sorcerer.
A good strategy much later is to Quicken and lead off with a Fireball or something, then get in a full attack. Also nice is how the higher level slots you have (some of which you cannot cast spells from) from mixing the two classes give you a ridiculous number of smites per day. I did Paladin 6/Sorcerer (4 so far), planning on continuing with sorcerer. The wild magic isn't bad for a melee. As somebody else said, who cares if you fireball yourself in the middle of the action? Just try not to hit your melee friends (but they do get your save bonus if so). And my dude is a Gold Dragonborn (partially so he always has fire resist).

Some type of Fighter/Sorcerer
I think overall this is a good choice. Action Surge AND Quicken Spell? You can make two full attacks with Action Surge, and cast a fireball. The spells from EK and Sorcerer mesh really well, just take all your defensive spells on EK (including Absorb Elements, which is on the wizard but not the sorcerer list)and shift your sorcerer spells upward as you level up. The other fighter archetypes are probably good too. But having War Magic (7 levels in fighter) and being able to two attacks and Greenflame Blade is awesome (1 from the cantrip, 1 from war magic). Or taking fighter 11. I almost would suggest doing Fighter (EK) 11/ Wizard ?? (maybe 2 for Portent, or more if you want to do more).


Notes for both picks: Tides of Chaos meshes beautifully with Great Weapon Master. And though this is not an intended purpose, Mage Slayer is really awesome for Wild Magic Sorcerer. First of all, the normal benefits are awesome and it makes you a caster-tank (with great saves if you took paladin). Second of all, you have ADVANTAGE ON YOUR WILD SURGES THAT HIT YOU. The feat says you have advantage on any spell cast within 5 feet of you. You are within 5 ft of yourself, i.e. you have advantage.

[Gastronomie]

though this is not an intended purpose, Mage Slayer is really awesome for Wild Magic Sorcerer. First of all, the normal benefits are awesome and it makes you a caster-tank (with great saves if you took paladin). Second of all, you have ADVANTAGE ON YOUR WILD SURGES THAT HIT YOU. The feat says you have advantage on any spell cast within 5 feet of you. You are within 5 ft of yourself, i.e. you have advantage.

This is awesome. I did not realize this, and definitely never would have if not for this post. Thank you - this is one idea I HAVE to put to use someday.

[Talamare]

I have a (perhaps sorta beginner-ish) question about the levels of spells a Paladin/Sorcerer can learn.

The original description in the PH about Sorcerers' spells level is that:


Now, let's say a Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 3 character (whole Multiclassing Caster Level is 2/2 + 3 = 4, from the multicasting spell rules in the PH) levels up and becomes Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 character (Multiclassing Caster Level 5, now with access to Level 3 spells).

A normal Level 4 Sorcerer can't use Level 3 spells, but a Paladin2/Sorcerer 4 character has Level 3 spell slots (and the original description in the PH about Sorcerers' known spells doesn't state "Sorcerer spells"). Does this mean he can now "know" Fireball and Haste and stuff, when he reaches this particular level?

Multi Class Caster Level determines your spell slots
Individual levels of each class determines your spells known
A 2p/18s would have 9th level slots, but only know 1st level Paladin spells