Bard Multiclass Help plus rules questions

[Isk]

Hey, so I just hit level 4 on my bard and here's my character. I rolled my ability scores and ended up a bit higher then with a point buy:

Lore Bard 4, Forest Gnome, Charlatan Noble background (custom)

Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18

Skills: Acrobatics, Deception (expertise), Investigation, Medicine, Perception, Persuasion, Stealth (expertise), thieves tools, forgery kit, 3 instruments.

Spells: Vicious Mockery, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand
Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Longstrider, Dissonant Whispers
Lesser Restoration, Invisibility, Phantasmal Force

Basicly my character is a faerie. He's a mythological version of a gnome/faerie; mischievous, trouble-making, magical. With my spells I focus on healing/support and illusions/utility, I see my character as manipulating luck for the party. I want to multi-class to a warlock (fae) and am wondering when the best time would be. I just got a couple stat boosts from level 4 and was originally thinking now would be the best time, but at bard 5 I get a third level spell and at 6 I can grab more spells from other classes because I'm a lore bard. I plan on grabbing eldrich blast from warlock and progressing to level 2 to get the cha modifier, then probably detect magic at will.

My party is a warlock (fae), rogue (swashbuckler), palladin and wizard. I play the party healer role with the palladin as back-up, and so far I have had no issues playing the party healer whatsoever. While I can't heal as well as a cleric, cutting distraction has prevented so much damage I rarely need to heal.

So should I multi-class to warlock now, or wait until 5 or 6?

Here are some other rule questions that have come up in our games:

1. When I vicious mockery against someone with 2 attacks per round, do I only give disadvantage on the first attack or both attacks?
2. When I am able to grab two extra spells from any class, I'm thinking bless and haste. I don't hear about bards grabbing bless very often but to me it looks like one of the best spells in game. I'd conc bless, use cutting distraction when appropriate and heal with healing word, then blast with eldrich blast.
3. Can you cutting distraction an initiative roll? Our DM ruled no, but I'm wondering what's intended in the rules.
4. For my next stat boost I'm thinking of grabbing the lucky feat, it looks amazing and fits my character. Thoughts?
5. Is there anything I should make sure I grab to play the healer role? With no cleric I want to make sure I'm grabbing all the support spells I'll need. While I rarely need to use them (well so far with restoration at least) I want to make sure I have them just in case.

Thanks!

[Noble_berserker]

1. You cannot cast Vicious Mockery twice unless you use Action Surge or an equivalent. That said, if you use it on the same opponent the disadvantage is not going to stack. It clearly says "the next attack roll it makes"

2. Haste is just great if you have a damage dealer with gwf. Bless is not too bad, the concentration kind of kills it though, you have better spells to use your concentration on.

3. You mean cutting words? While it is awesome, reaction is described as a combat action. Initiative is rolled before combat so I do not think you would be able to use cutting words against an initivative roll. I could not find an official statement on cutting words and initiative.

4. Lucky is a great feat, if it fits your character you should go for it. Resilient(con) is something to consider as well since you are planning to get concentration spells. If you feel uncomfortable with having 15 in CON then you could pick warcaster instead.

5. Aura of Vitality is awesome. Now that I thought about it, get that instead of bless at 6th level.

About multi-classing, I tend to do multi-classing as soon as possible. I usually start with 1bard/1warlock, since you didn't do that you might as well go to level 6 and grab the extra spells. If you feel like you are not doing much damage in combat, it might be a good time to go warlock so do not delay. I believe that you should check repelling blast. It makes me feel safer.

[Isk]

Okay, thanks. Yea, I feel like I do next to no damage in combat. d4 damage with no modifier is trivial.

Thinking about it, my group is a swashbuckler (rogue), palladin (defender type), mage, warlock (blaster type), and me. I can't see haste being very useful except on the palladin, and since he's a defender type I think I'll go with bless.

Since multi-classing will give me a tonn of first level spells I'll go with bless and aura of vitality. I should have enough first level spells I'll be able to bless every encounter, and use a 3rd level slot if I want to hand out bonus' to saving throws.

The warlock does a lot of damage, so d4 onto every attack roll should help his accuracy then maybe put it on the mage and the palladin with a first level slot. Replace the paladin with myself when I get eldrich blast.

[Ashrym]

You mean cutting words? While it is awesome, reaction is described as a combat action. Initiative is rolled before combat so I do not think you would be able to use cutting words against an initivative roll. I could not find an official statement on cutting words and initiative.

I disagree with this statement. If it were, a person wouldn't be able to using feather fall except in combat. Reactions are discussed in the combat section but are stated to be a specific type of reaction that requires a trigger. In the case of cutting words, the trigger is an ability check regardless of whether it's in combat or not.

That doesn't mean it can always be used on initiative, however; the bard needs to be able to take a reaction in order to use it, and that does not happen when surprised (for example) because he's not able to take reactions at that point.

[Specter]

1. When I vicious mockery against someone with 2 attacks per round, do I only give disadvantage on the first attack or both attacks?
2. When I am able to grab two extra spells from any class, I'm thinking bless and haste. I don't hear about bards grabbing bless very often but to me it looks like one of the best spells in game. I'd conc bless, use cutting distraction when appropriate and heal with healing word, then blast with eldrich blast.
3. Can you cutting distraction an initiative roll? Our DM ruled no, but I'm wondering what's intended in the rules.
4. For my next stat boost I'm thinking of grabbing the lucky feat, it looks amazing and fits my character. Thoughts?
5. Is there anything I should make sure I grab to play the healer role? With no cleric I want to make sure I'm grabbing all the support spells I'll need. While I rarely need to use them (well so far with restoration at least) I want to make sure I have them just in case.


1. 'The next attack roll', no plural.
2. Well, okay.
3. Reactions can be used outside of combat, so yes (as long as you're not surprised, of course).
4. I don't even allow this feat at my table, since it's good for all classes, all builds, always. But if he allowed it and you think it's cool, go for it.
5. At level 6 (1st magical secrets), I would consider Mass Healing Word. At 10, Mass Cure Wounds. Heal is also a must.

[Arkhios]

Since multi-classing will give me a tonn of first level spells I'll go with bless and aura of vitality. I should have enough first level spells I'll be able to bless every encounter, and use a 3rd level slot if I want to hand out bonus' to saving throws.

Multi-classing will get you ton of first level spells known, but when you multi-class with a warlock, your levels in bard and warlock won't stack for spell slot progression. Instead both follow their own progression for each class separately. So, if you took your first warlock level once you reach 5th level (which is the case I assume?), you won't be getting 3rd level spell slots. You do, however, get 2 extra first level slots from warlock, which refresh at short rest (unlike your bard spell slots).

If that was the only issue with the bard/warlock multi-class, I wouldn't worry about it though.

However, attaining 5th level in bard is going to be a huge advancement for you, as you get Font of Inspiration, which allows your allotment of Bardic Inspiration to refresh at short rest. Also, your Bardic Inspiration die increases to d8, which isn't bad either. Most of all, though, you get the third level spell slots and a maximum of 2 x 3rd level spells known (one more from your advancement in bard levels, and one more if you chose to replace one of the earlier spells you had). Since at that point you're only one level away from getting Additional Magical Secrets you could wait for 6th bard level before multi-classing, but to be honest, picking the first warlock level at this point wouldn't hit that hard. Especially if you took the 6th bard level at 7th character level.


5. At level 6 (1st magical secrets), I would consider Mass Healing Word. At 10, Mass Cure Wounds. Heal is also a must.

Heal is a great spell, no question there, but you can't get Heal with 10th level Magical Secrets since Heal is a 6th level spell. You must still be able to cast the spells as if they were your bard spells, and as a 10th level bard you can only cast up to 5th level spells. Even if you multi-classed with another class with a spellcasting progression (note, Pact Magic is different from Spellcasting), having higher spell slots doesn't allow you to learn spells of those levels. You must wait for 14th bard level to be able to pick up spells from 6th and 7th levels.

[Captbrannigan]

I'm a strong proponent of the first rule of multiclassing: thou shalt not lose caster levels. 5e lets your slots keep progressing, but without the higher level spells known. Higher level spells are almost always better than spells cast in higher level slots. No amount of upscaling is going to replace Fly or Revivify.

Aura of Vitality looks good on paper, but I think it's just going to be a ton of overhealing at the end of an encounter diminishing the benefits of Song of Rest. Bless is certainly a compentant spell, but there are other good concentration spells and I'd rather snag a utility spell from the cleric or druid list your group wouldn't get access to. Again, I'd rather have another 3rd level spell known than a 1st just on principle.

With that said, my picks for Magical Secrets are Counterspell and Revivify. Having a res, albeit with the caveat of having a 300gp diamond on hand, 3 levels before the Paladin could have it is pretty handy. I particularly like Counterspell both because it is a reaction and it only has S components, so you can still use it if you get silenced.

*edit* I just checked and since you can hand out BI to help with death saves, Revivify may not be as good of a choice as I thought. Maybe Conjure Animals?

[bardo]

My answers are:


1. When I vicious mockery against someone with 2 attacks per round, do I only give disadvantage on the first attack or both attacks?
It says "next attack roll", so only the first attack roll is affected. Vicious Mockery loses steam as you go up in level and face more opponents with extra attacks. But it's always fun.


2. When I am able to grab two extra spells from any class, I'm thinking bless and haste. I don't hear about bards grabbing bless very often but to me it looks like one of the best spells in game. I'd conc bless, use cutting distraction when appropriate and heal with healing word, then blast with eldrich blast.

Bless is the best 1st level buff, maybe the best buff in the game.
Haste is an awesome spell. But Paladin and Wizard can both cast Haste.

They are both concentration spells. Do you have your concentration free to keep Bless or Haste active? The Bard spell list is already heavy on concentration spells. A lot of bards pick non-concentration spells with Magical Secrets, so they can actually use them.


3. Can you cutting distraction an initiative roll? Our DM ruled no, but I'm wondering what's intended in the rules.
What the DM rules is the law for your game. But by the book there's no question about it, it's a clear yes.

Cutting Words: "When a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll, you can use your reaction to ...". An initiative roll is an ability check (dex). You get to use your Jack of All Trades on your initiative rolls. And you get to use Cutting Words on other people's initiative rolls as long as they are visible to you and within 60 feet when they make the roll.

If the DM says that's super-powerful, well, on certain encounters it can be. Against a single opponent it's effectively giving your entire party a bonus to initiative. But it's hardly free. You spend one Bardic Inspiration, and your Reaction. You can't pull it off every encounter.


4. For my next stat boost I'm thinking of grabbing the lucky feat, it looks amazing and fits my character. Thoughts?
It is amazing. If you're into debuffing or dealing damage, maybe max. CHA first. But I wouldn't say it's wrong to grab Lucky first. Gaining extra abilities is more exciting than gaining a +1 on (very important) abilities you already have.


5. Is there anything I should make sure I grab to play the healer role? With no cleric I want to make sure I'm grabbing all the support spells I'll need. While I rarely need to use them (well so far with restoration at least) I want to make sure I have them just in case.

Scrolls. Talk to your DM about scrolls. If you can get a couple of Lesser Restoration scrolls in your backpack, you can free up a known spell. Lore Bards get more known spells than any other spontaneous caster, but it's still a very short list. Filling it with just-in-case spells is going to seriously hurt your versatility.

Bardo.

[Citan]

Hey, so I just hit level 4 on my bard and here's my character. I rolled my ability scores and ended up a bit higher then with a point buy:

Lore Bard 4, Forest Gnome, Charlatan Noble background (custom)

Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18

Skills: Acrobatics, Deception (expertise), Investigation, Medicine, Perception, Persuasion, Stealth (expertise), thieves tools, forgery kit, 3 instruments.

Spells: Vicious Mockery, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand
Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Longstrider, Dissonant Whispers
Lesser Restoration, Invisibility, Phantasmal Force

Basicly my character is a faerie. He's a mythological version of a gnome/faerie; mischievous, trouble-making, magical. With my spells I focus on healing/support and illusions/utility, I see my character as manipulating luck for the party. I want to multi-class to a warlock (fae) and am wondering when the best time would be. I just got a couple stat boosts from level 4 and was originally thinking now would be the best time, but at bard 5 I get a third level spell and at 6 I can grab more spells from other classes because I'm a lore bard. I plan on grabbing eldrich blast from warlock and progressing to level 2 to get the cha modifier, then probably detect magic at will.

My party is a warlock (fae), rogue (swashbuckler), palladin and wizard. I play the party healer role with the palladin as back-up, and so far I have had no issues playing the party healer whatsoever. While I can't heal as well as a cleric, cutting distraction has prevented so much damage I rarely need to heal.

So should I multi-class to warlock now, or wait until 5 or 6?
Hi OP :)
Love your character concept. For your main question, "when to multiclass", I'd say it depends mainly on how you currently feel about your character. If you think you contribute enough as it is with pure Bard abilities, then by all means go up to lvl 6 or even 7/8.
If you feel there are too many times when you are not sure how best to act and you would like a good offense cantrip, then take your first dip into Warlock AFTER you get 5th lvl in Bard.
5th level in Bard is just too good to pass up. You get 3rd lvl spell (Bestow Curse obviously, and another you can swap with old known spell) and your Bardic Inspiration becomes short-rest (meaning 3* more uses if your DM goes with usual design of adventure day).


1. When I vicious mockery against someone with 2 attacks per round, do I only give disadvantage on the first attack or both attacks?
Only the first attack, cantrip is pretty clear on this. By the way, I hope your team use and abuse your Dissonant Whispers to get opportunity attacks. ;)


2. When I am able to grab two extra spells from any class, I'm thinking bless and haste. I don't hear about bards grabbing bless very often but to me it looks like one of the best spells in game. I'd conc bless, use cutting distraction when appropriate and heal with healing word, then blast with eldrich blast.
Haste is a good choice to help enabling SA or allowing another Smite, but it's not necessarily the best. There are many other strong choices for Magic Secrets. IIRC there is a thread dedicated to it somewhere here.
My personal suggestion would be Conjure Animals if your team is not so reticent in having a bunch of creatures with them. :)
Why?
- Synergizes greatly with Dissonant Whispers (put them along the line made by you and target enemy, you'll get several OA).
- Synergizes greatly with Rogue (put one animal near the Rogue's target to easily enable SA).
- Synergizes greatly with Paladin's Crusader Mantle (+1d4 damage to allies in 30 feet radius).
- Can help a runaway (put them in a line to prevent enemies from pursuing you).
- Can help with large range scounting.
- Can guard you (so you're less susceptible to get attacked).
- Comes from Druid spelllist so 100% original to the team, no tip-toeing anyone.

The big drawback is that how much you can use it depends on your DM (if you can never choose animals, can be useless) and it surely makes extra work for you and DM.

As for Bless... Frankly, if you really want it, you'd better take a 1-level dip in Life Cleric sometime in your career. You'll get Bless AND better healing AND Guidance ("poorsman's Bend Luck") and a bunch of other useful spells (and you can retrain your Bard's Healing Words for another Bard spell).
Otherwise, considering how many spells "fight" for Concentration slots, especially if you multiclass Warlock (Hex!), and considering Paladin also has it if necessary I'd say you have better choice of spells to poach.



3. Can you cutting distraction an initiative roll? Our DM ruled no, but I'm wondering what's intended in the rules.
Well, technically, yes you can. It's a Dexterity ability check after all.
However, since it's "Initiative", I believe the only way you could make this work is by taking an enemy by surprise.
Also, I'm not sure it would be allowed RAI. After all, the idea behind the ability is that you utter some nasty speech to briefly break someone's focus on a single action. Since Initiative is a check that "lasts" the whole fight it seems OP.
A nice middleground would be for your DM to allow it only on first round: creature rolls Initiative as normal, you take your reaction. DM writes "normal Initiative", then, only for the oncoming round, substract your BI die result from it.



4. For my next stat boost I'm thinking of grabbing the lucky feat, it looks amazing and fits my character. Thoughts?
Obviously, yes, it's nearly the core of your concept. :)



5. Is there anything I should make sure I grab to play the healer role? With no cleric I want to make sure I'm grabbing all the support spells I'll need. While I rarely need to use them (well so far with restoration at least) I want to make sure I have them just in case.
Confer my point above about dipping Life Cleric which would be the choice with the best return on investment. With that said, it's absolutely not necessary per se (especially since, with your stats, you would need to take the Resilient -WIS- feat to fill prerequisites). You could go pure Bard and maybe grab Aura of Vitality sometime if you really feel you could use it. But even this is only an option, not a requirement.
Another choice would be Inspiring Leader feat to give a hefty amount of THP per short rest (character level + CHA) for your 3rd/4th ASI.

From what you are saying though you should be fine as is. :)

Also, why were you considering Warlock? Mainly for Eldricht Blast and fluff (Faerie Patron) ?
I'm asking because mechanically, for your "bend luck" concept, Wild Magic Sorcerer could be nice too (although you sacrifice high-level spells just for the concept, it can be effective too). :)



Thanks!
You're very welcome!

[spartan_ah]

Cutting words doea affect enemy's initiative. You can use it as a reaction to a combat start.
Take warlock now vecause next level you'll have2 Eldritch blasts

[Isk]

Thanks for all the posts, gave me a lot to think about.

Cleric or Sorcerer... I mulled cleric over for a bit but found that I rarely need to heal. Whenever the paladin's hit with an attack I try to use cutting distraction and force a miss. Cleric would need to offer something more then a bit more healing for me to consider it. I was talking with our paladin last session and he remarked how he hasn't used lay on hands in 2 sessions. I never considered sorcerer, I'll have a look.

Here's another question, what should I be using my concentration on? Reading all these posts has made me think I'm doing something wrong because I almost never use my concentration. Most of the time all I do is vicious mockery every round, I tend to save my spells for utility or healing. That's one of the reasons I want to try warlock, eldrich blast sounds like it would contribute to the party more then vicious mockery, unless you're using vicious mockery on a tough opponent who's attack would do a lot of damage.

So just to be sure I understand how all this works, if I cast bless that would be my concentration. Then I could use eldrich blast every round, cast healing word or use cutting distraction every round without disrupting my concentration?

One more question now that I think of it, if the DM rolls a 20 and scores a crit but I use cutting distraction do I negate the critical hit?

[bid]

One more question now that I think of it, if the DM rolls a 20 and scores a crit but I use cutting distraction do I negate the critical hit?
The community is divided on that, best ask your DM which way he leans.

Try not to get hit too often, it's bad for your concentration. Expect to lose your spell in 2-3 hits unless you have proficiency in Con save.

[Ashrym]

Cleric or Sorcerer... I mulled cleric over for a bit but found that I rarely need to heal. Whenever the paladin's hit with an attack I try to use cutting distraction and force a miss. Cleric would need to offer something more then a bit more healing for me to consider it. I was talking with our paladin last session and he remarked how he hasn't used lay on hands in 2 sessions. I never considered sorcerer, I'll have a look.

You would find that you might run out of bardic inspiration at higher levels going that route, especially if you also plan on using them for initiative or reducing area damage.


Here's another question, what should I be using my concentration on? Reading all these posts has made me think I'm doing something wrong because I almost never use my concentration. Most of the time all I do is vicious mockery every round, I tend to save my spells for utility or healing. That's one of the reasons I want to try warlock, eldrich blast sounds like it would contribute to the party more then vicious mockery, unless you're using vicious mockery on a tough opponent who's attack would do a lot of damage.

The higher level you get, the more options you have on which to spend your concentration, and then it becomes more challenging. At lower levels, I like Heroism because it's temp hp that renew every round and can save more hp than cure wounds or healing word can cure. Using that for concentration also leaves a person open to use vicious mocker with the action, cutting words with a reaction, and healing word as a bonus action. Damage mitigation and emergency recovery can work well. Most players like to use concentration on controlling spells or buffs.


So just to be sure I understand how all this works, if I cast bless that would be my concentration. Then I could use eldrich blast every round, cast healing word or use cutting distraction every round without disrupting my concentration?

Bless is a great spell. It's a good bonus to many characters in a system where bonuses are (or at least were) largely restricted. The question I would wonder is why the paladin or cleric aren't already using it? That opens your options up to look at spells the party might not have available. Bards have a good spell list already, and magical secrets cracks their options wide to modify that list. It's usually better to crack fill what's missing instead of duplicate spells already available, but I don't know what those players are using slots for so when all is said and done bless is still a great spell.

You can cast any spell that has a casting time of one action or less that does not also have a concentration requirement. Any spell with a casting time of longer than one action (including ritual casting) automatically requires using your concentration. In your examples, yes, you could cast your eldritch blast (1 action cantrip), cast healing word (1 bonus action cantrip), use cutting words (1 reaction), and maintain concentration on something like bless.

Note that you cannot cast two spells in the same turn unless both are cantrips and one uses an action while the other uses a bonus action. Page 202 of the PHB for more detail.


One more question now that I think of it, if the DM rolls a 20 and scores a crit but I use cutting distraction do I negate the critical hit?

The rule for crits is a natural 20 automatically hits and crits regardless of the modified result. Cutting words just modifies the results but doesn't actually change the die roll so would be pointless against a natural 20; however, some people allow it as an actual die modification.

Hope that helps.

[Arkhios]

The community is divided on that

I wonder why, because a natural 20 on an attack roll always hits, no matter what the target's AC value might be. Only abilities that can strictly negate someone being hit (not talking about something reducing the overall result of a roll, but those things that can "turn the tide" entirely, so to speak) can negate a critical hit. Cutting WORDS reduces the result of a roll, it doesn't change the target or force another roll with a disadvantage on it etc.

[spartan_ah]

cutting words doesn't negate 20
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/02/05/can-i-cancel-a-natural-20-critical-hit-using-cutting-words/

[MeeposFire]

cutting words doesn't negate 20
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/02/05/can-i-cancel-a-natural-20-critical-hit-using-cutting-words/

Lol in December he actually said the opposite. Looks like he changed his mind. I wonder who convinced him to change his mind?

[Arkhios]

Lol in December he actually said the opposite. Looks like he changed his mind. I wonder who convinced him to change his mind?

Maybe someone explained him how a natural 20 has always meant a hit, no matter what ;)

[Citan]

Bless is a great spell. It's a good bonus to many characters in a system where bonuses are (or at least were) largely restricted. The question I would wonder is why the paladin or cleric aren't already using it? That opens your options up to look at spells the party might not have available. Bards have a good spell list already, and magical secrets cracks their options wide to modify that list. It's usually better to crack fill what's missing instead of duplicate spells already available, but I don't know what those players are using slots for so when all is said and done bless is still a great spell.


Note that you cannot cast two spells in the same turn unless both are cantrips and one uses an action while the other uses a bonus action. Page 202 of the PHB for more detail.


Hi again all. I'd like to react on this post.

1. Totally agree with first paragraph, I also wonder how comes neither Paladin nor Cleric are casting Bless... Bard should keep Magical Secret for "exclusive" (no-one in party) class greatness.

2. You're wrong. :) Technically, only one of the two spells has to be a cantrip, but it has to be the one cast with the Action, and the spell has to be cast with the Bonus Action (unless you multiclassed Fighter for Action Surge).

[Ashrym]

Hi again all. I'd like to react on this post.

1. Totally agree with first paragraph, I also wonder how comes neither Paladin nor Cleric are casting Bless... Bard should keep Magical Secret for "exclusive" (no-one in party) class greatness.

2. You're wrong. :) Technically, only one of the two spells has to be a cantrip, but it has to be the one cast with the Action, and the spell has to be cast with the Bonus Action (unless you multiclassed Fighter for Action Surge).

lol, I think you are correct. The better way to put it would be to state the the standard action must be a cantrip when the bonus action is a bonus action spell. Right gist, error on the bonus action spell. Funny thing is we play it correctly and I just had a brain fart explaining it.

[Drackolus]

While bless is a great spell, remember that counterspell is a better one, and you CAN apply jack of all trades to your roll to counter bigger spells (the same is true for dispel magic). That means you can add half your proficiency as well as your charisma to the check, which, at 20 charisma, means you can add a solid +7 at mid levels, meaning you can counter 7th level spells with a 3rd level slot half the time.

[Isk]

About bless, we have no cleric to cast bless. Our party is paladin (devotion oath and protection style), warlock (fey blaster), swashbuckler rogue, wizard and me. I asked our paladin why he never casts bless (he has the spell) and he said he likes to smite evil. I don't see the point in asking him to cast it more often, he wants to play a defending paladin that dishes out more damage so good enough. Even though he has bless he might as well not because he never uses it.

Looking at counterspell, wow it's amazing. I'm definitely going to pick that spell up, then role-play that the caster gets unlucky and mispronounces the spell or something along those lines, maybe I make his lip go numb at just the right moment. So I'm thinking bless and counterspell at this point.

Heroism looks like a decent spell but my character is a coward. He runs to maximum casting range (60') and hurls insults behind the protection of the party, I'd need to be close to the enemy to cast heroism on the party member who'd most need it. That's another reason I always save a 2nd level spell slot for invisibility, if I see a party wipe coming I'll cast invisibility and run away... my character is the 3' tall toadie faerie who talks big and enrages his opponents, meanwhile he always has one foot pointed towards the exit ready to cast invisibility and run away.

Another interesting thing is our party tends to do a lot of damage (except me) which might be a reason the party takes so little damage, and cutting distraction and vicious mockery has been able to mitigate so much damage.

Last random rules question....

We just got these boots that give advantage on stealth checks (you make no noise) and I was super excited about it. They fit my character perfectly... I thought I'd cast invisibility and I wouldn't be able to be seen or heard! Then I started looking invisibility up and the rules were confusing... how does invisibility effect stealth? It says you're mostly obscured or something like that without giving a definition. If I have advantage on stealth from invisibility, boots that give advantage on stealth wouldn't do anything for me right?

[Ashrym]

About bless, we have no cleric to cast bless. Our party is paladin (devotion oath and protection style), warlock (fey blaster), swashbuckler rogue, wizard and me. I asked our paladin why he never casts bless (he has the spell) and he said he likes to smite evil. I don't see the point in asking him to cast it more often, he wants to play a defending paladin that dishes out more damage so good enough. Even though he has bless he might as well not because he never uses it.

Looking at counterspell, wow it's amazing. I'm definitely going to pick that spell up, then role-play that the caster gets unlucky and mispronounces the spell or something along those lines, maybe I make his lip go numb at just the right moment. So I'm thinking bless and counterspell at this point.

Heroism looks like a decent spell but my character is a coward. He runs to maximum casting range (60') and hurls insults behind the protection of the party, I'd need to be close to the enemy to cast heroism on the party member who'd most need it. That's another reason I always save a 2nd level spell slot for invisibility, if I see a party wipe coming I'll cast invisibility and run away... my character is the 3' tall toadie faerie who talks big and enrages his opponents, meanwhile he always has one foot pointed towards the exit ready to cast invisibility and run away.

Another interesting thing is our party tends to do a lot of damage (except me) which might be a reason the party takes so little damage, and cutting distraction and vicious mockery has been able to mitigate so much damage.

Last random rules question....

We just got these boots that give advantage on stealth checks (you make no noise) and I was super excited about it. They fit my character perfectly... I thought I'd cast invisibility and I wouldn't be able to be seen or heard! Then I started looking invisibility up and the rules were confusing... how does invisibility effect stealth? It says you're mostly obscured or something like that without giving a definition. If I have advantage on stealth from invisibility, boots that give advantage on stealth wouldn't do anything for me right?

Counter spell can be great. It's situational (needs to have someone casting a spell) and the range is also 60 ft so if enemy casters are behind melee you might need to move closer than usual. Heroism can be cast in prep too, but it often loses luster at higher levels in light of better healing spells and more options for concentration.

Bless does more good than smites usually unless the combats are very short consistently, but since you can cast it if you take it the group can have both anyway.

Invisibility lets a character hide in places where there is no cover and concealment. Normally cover and concealment are an environmental factor and as such controlled by the DM. So in an open field in broad daylight would prevent suitable conditions for hiding while invisibility removes that environmental factor to allow hiding anyway. The boots would add advantage to the stealth checks that the spell doesn't. Does that answer the question for you?

[Drackolus]

Personal experience with my bard that started at 1 and is now 10, vicious mockery falls off terribly. More cantrip dice widens the damage gap and mutiattack lessens the overall impact. I'm personally gonna spell sniper eldritch blast at 12.

Edit: forgot to mention that you can cutting words str checks against spells and use peerless skill (14) on telekinisis, counterspell, and dispel magic, AFTER your d20.

[Isk]

Invisibility lets a character hide in places where there is no cover and concealment. Normally cover and concealment are an environmental factor and as such controlled by the DM. So in an open field in broad daylight would prevent suitable conditions for hiding while invisibility removes that environmental factor to allow hiding anyway. The boots would add advantage to the stealth checks that the spell doesn't. Does that answer the question for you?

I think so, so invisibility lets you stealth when you normally wouldn't be able to... so if someone tries to find me with perception, normally there's no disadvantage... but the boots would add disadvantage?

Yea, the warlock in the group always uses hex and puts the disadvantage on saving throws to wisdom for me. Vicious mockery is too weak to use cutting distraction on the save, but I'll look for spells where I can distract their saves.

I looked at getting eldrich blast another way besides warlock, but the +cha to eldrich blast beams is too good to pass up imo. At level 5 our warlock will be shooting 2 eldrich blast beams each doing d10+cha bonus, all it takes is 2 levels in warlock to grab the cha bonus to damage and with an 18 cha that's a lot of damage.

[Ashrym]

I think so, so invisibility lets you stealth when you normally wouldn't be able to... so if someone tries to find me with perception, normally there's no disadvantage... but the boots would add disadvantage?

Yea, the warlock in the group always uses hex and puts the disadvantage on saving throws to wisdom for me. Vicious mockery is too weak to use cutting distraction on the save, but I'll look for spells where I can distract their saves.

Hex doesn't provide disadvantage on saves, only ability checks. That's an error. Saving throws and attack rolls are based on ability scores but they aren't ability checks. ;-)

Vicious mockery only affects one attack roll. It's useful but it falls behind later and is better on small numbers of big creatures than large numbers of little creatures because of the number of attacks. Cutting words improves with levels and becomes better than disadvantage on an attack as the average penalty increases.

Invisibility doesn't give any bonus to stealth at all aside from letting someone hide when and where that wouldn't otherwise be possible. It's normally a standard stealth check, which it sounds like the DM is giving a magic item that would provide disadvantage on opponent checks or advantage on your checks, however it's being handled by the DM.

[Arkhios]

About bless, we have no cleric to cast bless. Our party is paladin (devotion oath and protection style)

Paladin knows Bless too.

[Captbrannigan]

Paladin knows Bless too.

And literally the next sentence addressed that, but by all means continue to take statements out of context to critique the op with.

[Arkhios]

And literally the next sentence addressed that, but by all means continue to take statements out of context to critique the op with.

Excuse me? I wasn't criticizing. If the OP would've known this, I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have specifically noted they didn't have a cleric to cast it. Sheesh, look in the mirror to see who's criticizing who. I was just providing a point they seemed to have missed. No offense or harm done or meant.
Edit: oops, I misread myself. You're right, he did address it. I didn't notice it for whatever reason. My bad.

[BW022]

IMO... multi-classing is best at extremely low levels to provide additional benefits to aid at low-level survival. Once you reach even 4th... you already know how to survive and are now gaining far more powerful abilities than that you gain from multi-classing.

At 4th-level bard you would get...
1. Additional bard spell known
2. Additional bard cantrip known
3. Additional 2nd-level spell slot.
4. Either ability score increase(s) or a feat.

You are also closer to 3rd-level spells and slots (5th), regaining inspiration after a short rest (5th), bardic inspiration to d8 (5th), and additional magic secrets (6th).

A level of warlock gives you...
1. Two warlock cantrips
2. Two 1st-level warlock spells known,
3. One 1st-level spell slot which recovers after a short rest.

Ultimately... these are low-level benefits. You are already at a level where it isn't that great and by 7th or so, they would be pretty weak. Most warlock abilities don't kick in until 3rd to 5th (pacts and useful invocations).

I don't see the point in multi-classing at this point. I would keep going on bard. If you really like the warlock abilities... keep going with bard but...
* At 4th, take the magic initiate feat (warlock). That gives you two warlock cantrips and a 1st-level warlock spell (each day). Eldritch blast or hex if you want to.
* At 6th, use your magic secrets to take some 3rd-level warlock spells. There aren't many not already on the bard list.

In this way... it costs you little but gives you many of their benefits.

[Isk]

What I'm really after isn't eldrich blast on it's own, it's eldrich blast with the cha modifier. Look at it this way:

Vicious mockery: d4 damage (with a special ability)
Eldrich blast: d10 damage
Eldrich blast level 2 warlock: d10 damage + cha bonus

Expected values in each situation at my level:

Vicious mockery: 2.5 damage
Eldrich blast: 5.5
Eldrich blast + cha mod: 9.5 damage

Expected values at level 5:

Vicious mockery: 5 damage
Eldrich blast: 11 damage
Eldrich blast + cha mod (2 beams with cha mod): 19 damage

So 2 levels in warlock gives you the ability to add cha modifier on eldrich blast, which is a larger damage difference then going from d4 damage to d10 damage. The gap will grow even wider if I ever get 20 cha. It suits my theme too.

The other advantage of eldrich blast is since it's a cantrip it doesn't interrupt concentration spells, that on it's own is really powerful. It's true I lose some higher level spells but I think it's worth it. What taking eldrich blast does for me is it gives me a consistent way to do damage every round without using my spell slots, then I can grab utility or illusion spells with my slots. I can use all my spells to say cast haste/bless, counterspell, heal, or whatever else I need. While it's true I'll have less spells and spell slots, I'll be able to grab spells like feather fall (as an example) instead of damaging spells. I like spells that are rarely taken because they're not always useful, but when they are used they're amazing in those circumstances.

[bardo]

The other advantage of eldrich blast is since it's a cantrip it doesn't interrupt concentration spells, that on it's own is really powerful.

I'm not sure what you mean about concentration. Either I'm misunderstanding you, or you're misunderstanding the rules. A caster can keep concentration on one spell while casting other non-concentration spells. Doesn't matter if those other spells are cantrips or not, just as long as the other spells don't require concentration.

Bardo.

[MeeposFire]

RIght for instance if you are concentrating on haste and you cast the cantrip guidance then the haste spell ends because guidance has a concentration requirement.

[Isk]

Oh I didn't know that, I thought spells break concentration unless they're a cantrip or bonus action spell.