Have a save question

[Frendle]

I am building a Fighter, and roiled this array.

17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 4.

Yes 4.

Question is, I am assuming the two stats a fighter can safely put that 4 in is int or cha. So, assuming that is correct, which of those two saves will hurt me the most to have a -3 in?

[BiPolar]

I am building a Fighter, and roiled this array.

17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 4.

Yes 4.

Question is, I am assuming the two stats a fighter can safely put that 4 in is int or cha. So, assuming that is correct, which of those two saves will hurt me the most to have a -3 in?

I think that the Dumb Fighter (INT) is more realistic than the uncharismatic Fighter thematically. You'll fail illusion checks a lot, though.

[N810]

I suspect Charisma, best to look forward in your fighter options,
and see if you need that for anything. :smallfurious:


Either way being really unlikeable or being really stupid is a tough choice. :smalleek:
Should make for great roleplaying though. :smallwink:

[Ninja_Prawn]

I agree that dumping Int is better mechanically, but personally, I wouldn't be able to roleplay that. A humanoid with 4 Int would have a crippling learning disability. They'd probably need dedicated assistance to even function as normal humanoids, let alone effective heroes.

4 Cha is tough too, of course... I'd say that's either a crippling personality disorder or repulsiveness on the level of (the original) Reek from ASOIAF.

[Frendle]

Well, if I go half-ork the crippling personality disorder would be pretty good thematically....

Thanks, you helped a great deal GiT, again. :)

[Addaran]

Bonus point if you put the 4 in str or dex. =P
A skinny dex fighter or a strong but fumbling fighter in full plate.:smallcool:

[DanyBallon]

Bonus point if you put the 4 in str or dex. =P
A skinny dex fighter or a strong but fumbling fighter in full plate.:smallcool:

Put it in dex, pick elf as your race and be that likeable, bright, strong willed, elven knight in shinny armor, that just can get to walk straight without tripping or knocking someone or something, yet being a pretty good fighter.

[Theodoxus]

More points for low Wisdom. Especially on a HOrc... Take the flaw (I think it's in the Criminal background) "If there's a plan, I forget it..." and play up the smart but unwise angle. Lawful stupid works really well as an alignment. Plus you get all the fun of watching your party deal with you being super gullible and easily charmed.

"Gee guys, that super nice black robed man in the metal mask thinks it'd be swell if we went and burnt down that building over there with the steeple. He even said we could search the small bodies for loot!"

[N810]

More points for low Wisdom. Especially on a HOrc... Take the flaw (I think it's in the Criminal background) "If there's a plan, I forget it..." and play up the smart but unwise angle. Lawful stupid works really well as an alignment. Plus you get all the fun of watching your party deal with you being super gullible and easily charmed.

"Gee guys, that super nice black robed man in the metal mask thinks it'd be swell if we went and burnt down that building over there with the steeple. He even said we could search the small bodies for loot!"

Or a blond human.
You'd be like Gourry from Slayer. :elan:
http://cdn.vanillaforums.com/baldursgate.vanillaforums.com/FileUpload/27/b702abc8b67e70e6c48be406e916a9.jpg
(yea, he presses it)

[Petrocorus]

I am building a Fighter, and roiled this array.

17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 4.

Yes 4.

Question is, I am assuming the two stats a fighter can safely put that 4 in is int or cha. So, assuming that is correct, which of those two saves will hurt me the most to have a -3 in?

A 4 in Int mean an intelligence barely above the common animal, that's the intelligence of a Baboon and below the one of an Ape, that does mean being barely able to function as a sentient humanoid being or to properly use language. On the other hand, a Cha of 4 can be justified by being really ugly, due to birth malformation or a tragic accident.

I would not advise to put 4 in Dex, because even if you can offset the AC penalty with heavy armour and you don't need Dex to hit or damages, the penalty to initiative and to Dex save may be a big hindrance.

[DanyBallon]

I would not advise to put 4 in Dex, because even if you can offset the AC penalty with heavy armour and you don't need Dex to hit or damages, the penalty to initiative and to Dex save may be a big hindrance.

Going last is not all that bad, and as a fighter he could spend a feat on Alert to offset the penalty to initiative. Also by selecting a race that gives a bonus to Dex, the modifier is only -2...

[Ninja_Prawn]

Going last is not all that bad, and as a fighter he could spend a feat on Alert to offset the penalty to initiative. Also by selecting a race that gives a bonus to Dex, the modifier is only -2...

The problem is that most high-damage AoE abilities target the Dex save. A fighter with -3 or even -2 to that save is going to struggle to hold the line against those kinds of attacks.

[DanyBallon]

The problem is that most high-damage AoE abilities target the Dex save. A fighter with -3 or even -2 to that save is going to struggle to hold the line against those kinds of attacks.

I know, but it the same as if he would have a low Wisdom score and fail all his wis saving throws. Less direct damage, but he wont be able to contribute all the same.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I know, but it the same as if he would have a low Wisdom score and fail all his wis saving throws. Less direct damage, but he wont be able to contribute all the same.

Which is why the only 'sensible' options for the 4 are Int or Cha. From the OP's original question, I'm guessing they don't want to deliberately hamstring themselves, so it becomes a straight choice between the two.

[mephnick]

I'm not sure Int 4 is actually viable because you can't function as an adventurer at that point unless you role-play it as a psuedo animal companion that another character orders around. Much easier on everyone if you just play someone repulsive.

[JoeJ]

I'm not sure Int 4 is actually viable because you can't function as an adventurer at that point unless you role-play it as a psuedo animal companion that another character orders around. Much easier on everyone if you just play someone repulsive.

I think you're reading too much into the stats. A lot of problems only appear if you assume that the Intelligence stat means something more than just a bonus or penalty to specific ability checks. Human Intelligence can be as low as 3 (assuming variant human with the boost going to other stats) and still be a viable adventurer, so whatever a 4 means, it's not sub-human.

[Vogonjeltz]

I am building a Fighter, and roiled this array.

17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 4.

Yes 4.

Question is, I am assuming the two stats a fighter can safely put that 4 in is int or cha. So, assuming that is correct, which of those two saves will hurt me the most to have a -3 in?

Intelligence saves are the rarest of all (although they usually carry seriously lethal consequences).

However, Intelligence is important to Eldritch Knights, so if you do that it's best that you pick either Battlemaster, Champion, or Purple Dragon Knight. It also impacts Intelligence checks, so you'll be set back in terms of solving puzzles, recalling lore, and investigating to reach a conclusion which isn't self evident (i.e. the likely location of a secret door).

Charisma is less rare of a save, but low Charisma will hamper your social interactions, the Rally maneuver (if you go Battlemaster), and pretty much rule out the use of Charisma (Intimidate) checks.

I'd probably put it into Charisma and play a Mercenary/hired gun type. If you want to roleplay rationalize it, you could be physically normal/attractive, but have the personality of a lout. Your character might say things like "They don't pay me to be nice..." etc...

[N810]

Yea, it's just that your IQ is like 60 or something... :elan:

[Frendle]

It's an interesting question. The group would be heavy in "face" type CHA folks, so in terms of what I don't bring to the group, a dazzling personality, or any personality, would be the least harmful to overall group effectiveness.

They'd just have to be careful to,

"Why don't you wait outside while we go in and talk to these folks.

"But we aren't even inside the town yet."

"Exactly"

[Talamare]

Go for 4 Dex

How many times have we seen the "Stupid Fighter" Trope
The penalties to low Dex are really overblown

You lose initiative, and Dex saves are usually just damage

[WMO?]

Dump Strength, run a Dex fighter who can hardly carry anything. You won't be able to shove or grapple, but you'll be able to escape grapples with Acrobatics, and it could be a fun character to role-play as well.

"Everyone looks at me and expects me to snap in half. But I'm deadly quick, and in the end what matters is not not how hard you hit, but if you land the right blow in the right spot. That's why they call me Derek the Dirk."

[mephnick]

I think you're reading too much into the stats. A lot of problems only appear if you assume that the Intelligence stat means something more than just a bonus or penalty to specific ability checks. Human Intelligence can be as low as 3 (assuming variant human with the boost going to other stats) and still be a viable adventurer, so whatever a 4 means, it's not sub-human.

You're literally dumber than some animals. Yes, you can be part of an adventuring party, but your role will be that of "mount".

[JellyPooga]

I'm going to wade in on the dump Int crowd on this one.

Charisma 4 is really hard to play well. That's actively unsociable. As much as Int 4 means your dumb as a stump, Cha 4 means you've got no concept of social etiquette, you have zero empathy...you barely even recognise that a smile means someone is happy. We're not talking about someone who's merely ugly, smelly and abrasive. Think less Charisma than a Boar.

- You should always speak your mind; this means insulting anyone with any perceived flaw (and with Wisdom of at least 14, you're going to notice flaws). This probably means you get kicked out of every place you ever go. Forever.

- You should hump the barmaid in the middle of the tavern because you don't realise that a) you're supposed to ask her first and b) that you should take it elsewhere. You don't pay for the drinks you had there either and don't care when the landlord insists you pay. This means you get into a lot of fights and spend a lot of time behind bars.

- You don't use the outhouse.

You literally have no concept of living like a civilised person, either because you simply don't care or are socially impaired.

Yeah, Charisma 4 is not playable. Intelligence 4 is much easier to play, especially if you've got Charisma 14 and are, therefore, kind of sweet and likable despite or because of your lack of brains.

[Talamare]

I'm going to wade in on the dump Int crowd on this one.

Charisma 4 is really hard to play well. That's actively unsociable. As much as Int 4 means your dumb as a stump, Cha 4 means you've got no concept of social etiquette, you have zero empathy...you barely even recognise that a smile means someone is happy. We're not talking about someone who's merely ugly, smelly and abrasive. Think less Charisma than a Boar.

- You should always speak your mind; this means insulting anyone with any perceived flaw (and with Wisdom of at least 14, you're going to notice flaws). This probably means you get kicked out of every place you ever go. Forever.

- You should hump the barmaid in the middle of the tavern because you don't realise that a) you're supposed to ask her first and b) that you should take it elsewhere. You don't pay for the drinks you had there either and don't care when the landlord insists you pay. This means you get into a lot of fights and spend a lot of time behind bars.

- You don't use the outhouse.

You literally have no concept of living like a civilised person, either because you simply don't care or are socially impaired.

Yeah, Charisma 4 is not playable. Intelligence 4 is much easier to play, especially if you've got Charisma 14 and are, therefore, kind of sweet and likable despite or because of your lack of brains.
4 Int is just as horrible to play
You basically need to act like a toddler the entire time
At 4 Int you're barely able to form sentences
Hell, technically you shouldn't know any math. Even 1+1 will be difficult for you. So don't even bother having any money, since you probably don't even have a real concept of what money is or how much is a lot or a little.
Considering how primitive your mind is, every time you see an attractive opposite gender. You will probably try to have sex with it too. Since its a primal instinctual animalist urge
At least someone with 4 Cha know's what an outhouse is, and is just too much of an ******* to use it. You might occasionally randomly **** yourself or just go wherever

Again, My vote is for low dex. Which literally just means you have slow reaction time and poor fine motor skills.

[JellyPooga]

4 Int is just as horrible to play

Int 4 is a pain to play, for sure, but at least it won't get the party arrested or killed, so long as someone in the party keeps an eye on you!

With Int 4, you're smarter than a dog and still an adult human being (or similar). You might have the mind of a child, but you have the capability of learning things like "you poop in the outhouse" and "give the shinies to the man when he gives you the beer" and "don't play too rough with girls"...and because you have a functioning Charisma score, you are largely capable of getting along ok in society. You're just an idiot and probably pay too much for everything because you can't count, have to ask where the outhouse is because you can't read the sign that points you in the right direction and so forth.

You might break some laws because you don't understand the consequences of certain things, but if someone tells you "don't do that", you're probably inclined to acquiesce because you're aware of the fact that you aren't the sharpest tool in the box.

I'll say it again. Int 4 is playable, especially in a party where someone can be your "minder" or "handler". Charisma 4 is not, because no matter what anyone else says, you just don't care or realise that what they're saying matters. Especially if your next highest score is a 14...seriously, someone with a stat-line like that and Charisma 4 will probably have the absolute worst superiority complex imaginable.

Imagine the worst movie-Jock/Bully stereotypes. Combine it with the personality of your choice of serial killer. Now remove any social niceties he might have left, like showering or cutting his hair. Now take away the pretty Hollywood face. That's probably around Charisma 6. Dump a couple more points. We're talking about an actual monster...Freddie Kruger, Jason X...a creature more than a man.

A dog has Charisma 7. A boar has Charisma 5. These are domesticated animals that function in civilised society. Hell, a Cockatrice has Charisma 5 and that's a monstrous bird/lizard/snake thing. With Charisma 4, you're about as capable of functioning in society as a Giant Spider or Shark and your personality should be about as alien.

[Talamare]

Int 4 is a pain to play, for sure, but at least it won't get the party arrested or killed, so long as someone in the party keeps an eye on you!

With Int 4, you're smarter than a dog and still an adult human being (or similar). You might have the mind of a child, but you have the capability of learning things like "you poop in the outhouse" and "give the shinies to the man when he gives you the beer" and "don't play too rough with girls"...and because you have a functioning Charisma score, you are largely capable of getting along ok in society. You're just an idiot and probably pay too much for everything because you can't count, have to ask where the outhouse is because you can't read the sign that points you in the right direction and so forth.

You might break some laws because you don't understand the consequences of certain things, but if someone tells you "don't do that", you're probably inclined to acquiesce because you're aware of the fact that you aren't the sharpest tool in the box.

I'll say it again. Int 4 is playable, especially in a party where someone can be your "minder" or "handler". Charisma 4 is not, because no matter what anyone else says, you just don't care or realise that what they're saying matters. Especially if your next highest score is a 14...seriously, someone with a stat-line like that and Charisma 4 will probably have the absolute worst superiority complex imaginable.

Imagine the worst movie-Jock/Bully stereotypes. Combine it with the personality of your choice of serial killer. Now remove any social niceties he might have left, like showering or cutting his hair. Now take away the pretty Hollywood face. That's probably around Charisma 6. Dump a couple more points. We're talking about an actual monster...Freddie Kruger, Jason X...a creature more than a man.

A dog has Charisma 7. A boar has Charisma 5. These are domesticated animals that function in civilised society. Hell, a Cockatrice has Charisma 5 and that's a monstrous bird/lizard/snake thing. With Charisma 4, you're about as capable of functioning in society as a Giant Spider or Shark and your personality should be about as alien.
You are insanely exaggerating what it means to have low Charisma. Especially that crap about crapping everywhere, or that it turns you into a serial killer. You're blunt, ugly, boring to talk to, have odious habits, and everyone hates. That's about it. It doesn't mean you start raping, murdering, and crapping all over the place because you have enough intelligence and wisdom not to. You wouldn't care about the opinion of others and yea, you will probably have a superiority complex and probably social anxiety.

Oh, and most monsters and serial killers in the MM have pretty good Charisma. The things that have low charisma are Robots. So, yea you would have the personality of a robot. Dull, plain, uninteractive...

[JoeJ]

You're literally dumber than some animals. Yes, you can be part of an adventuring party, but your role will be that of "mount".

No. You're worse at certain rule-specified tasks than some animals, that's all. You can still talk (although a character who can only say "Hodor" might be fun to play, too), reason, and manage your own life without a keeper. You can even be a wizard if you want, although if you do that you should probably specialize in conjuration.

[georgie_leech]

Worth noting that studies peg the average dog's intelligence at about that of a 4 year old child, so if we accept that INT represents a consistent scaling of mental capacity (which I don't, but whatever), 4 INT is a littlenbetter than a Mastiff and so would give you a rather childish mentality but it wouldn't make you subhuman. You're probably smarter than Thog, but not as smart as early Elan.

[JellyPooga]

You are insanely exaggerating what it means to have low Charisma. Especially that crap about crapping everywhere, or that it turns you into a serial killer. You're blunt, ugly, boring to talk to, have odious habits, and everyone hates. That's about it. It doesn't mean you start raping, murdering, and crapping all over the place because you have enough intelligence and wisdom not to. You wouldn't care about the opinion of others and yea, you will probably have a superiority complex and probably social anxiety.

Oh, and most monsters and serial killers in the MM have pretty good Charisma. The things that have low charisma are Robots. So, yea you would have the personality of a robot. Dull, plain, uninteractive...

I'm not sure I am exaggerating. I had a concern whilst writing those posts that maybe I was going over the top, but the more I thought about it and made comparisons to other creatures in the MM, the more convinced I was that I wasn't.

To quote the PHB;

Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.

Now, take your average Adventurer. What does he do for a living? He kills things, right? Now take away his "ability to interact effectively with others". Make him withdrawn, in-eloquent, abrasive and shady. Is anyone going to stand up for this guy and say "yeah, he's an ok guy, your honour"? No. Literally no-one likes him. He's a social pariah. At best, he's kicked out of every place he goes. At worst, he's locked up or executed for even the slightest wrong and this guy kills things for a living. He could turn up at the city courts, truthfully claiming to have destroyed the cult and captured the necromancer that was threatening the place and get locked up for aggravated assault because the necromancer turned out to be a citizen of the city.

The "monsters" in the MM might have decent Charisma scores but they're monsters in the sense of their physical difference, rather than their personality. I'm talking about monster in the social sense; someone that has no regard or concept of what it means to be able to exist in a civilised society. Other things with low charisma include animals which, again, I gave examples of. Charisma 4 is the Charisma of a Shark. Or an insect. Think about that one. They don't have low charisma because they're unattractive or because they pick their nose in public. They have low Charisma because they have no concept of working in any kind of society. They only have conception of what is best for them and their own survival. They do what they must, not what is best for the greater whole. They don't recognise that there is a greater whole, or if they do, they don't care about it. Dogs have the relatively high Charisma of 7; they work in packs, they function in society. Sharks don't. Spiders don't. Charisma 4 doesn't function in society. It functions on its own terms and only its own terms.

The likes of robots and zombies have non-functioning Charisma scores of 1, which is an inability to have any social interaction; they either don't have sentience or are unable to recognise it. In a certain respect, a non-1 Charisma below 5 is worse, because it represents the ability to interact socially...just really really badly.

Charisma 4 isn't just "odious and boring". It's actively unaware of social niceties. Whether because you have some kind of social disability (which is the only way you could be a Good character with Charisma that low, IMO) or because you don't care (on the Evil end of the spectrum) is irrelevant; you don't actually recognise social norms.

Pooping on the carpet is a bit of a silly example, but it's also not far off of a reasonable expectation for someone with that level of social awareness. You might be smart and aware when it comes to other things; you can do complex mathematics and learn multiple languages, but with Charisma that low you don't realise that you're not supposed to do certain things in civilised company.

[Vogonjeltz]

Charisma 4 isn't just "odious and boring". It's actively unaware of social niceties. Whether because you have some kind of social disability (which is the only way you could be a Good character with Charisma that low, IMO) or because you don't care (on the Evil end of the spectrum) is irrelevant; you don't actually recognise social norms.

Pooping on the carpet is a bit of a silly example, but it's also not far off of a reasonable expectation for someone with that level of social awareness. You might be smart and aware when it comes to other things; you can do complex mathematics and learn multiple languages, but with Charisma that low you don't realise that you're not supposed to do certain things in civilised company.

I don't think you need to devolve into a caricature to portray a low stat in multiple ways.

A low charisma could be that someone lacks obvious social conditioning, or they could be extremely abrasive, or they could be so ugly that few give them the opportunity to even demonstrate their personality.

Examples of low Charisma characters in Game of Thrones:
Stannis Baratheon - You might respect him, but nobody likes him, not even his followers.
The Blackfish - Extremely abrasive towards those he considers idiots.
Tyrion Lannister - Ugly exterior
The Mountain - Cruel and Ugly.

Tyrion is smart, clever, and genuinely good; but others treat him like dirt and call him names.
Stannis is strategically minded, and arguably quite brave and stoic, but has the personality of a wooden door.
The Blackfish is a no nonsense survivor of several wars. He comes off as quite abrasive, but underneath it all he's a good well intentioned person.
The Mountain, despite being scary, is reviled almost universally.

Some are good, some are bad, none are caricatures.

[Foxhound438]

i'd put it in charisma, but i also like to play the saltiest most cynical characters possible.

[Foxhound438]

I'm going to wade in on the dump Int crowd on this one.

Charisma 4 is really hard to play well. That's actively unsociable. As much as Int 4 means your dumb as a stump, Cha 4 means you've got no concept of social etiquette, you have zero empathy...you barely even recognise that a smile means someone is happy. We're not talking about someone who's merely ugly, smelly and abrasive. Think less Charisma than a Boar.

- You should always speak your mind; this means insulting anyone with any perceived flaw (and with Wisdom of at least 14, you're going to notice flaws). This probably means you get kicked out of every place you ever go. Forever.

- You should hump the barmaid in the middle of the tavern because you don't realise that a) you're supposed to ask her first and b) that you should take it elsewhere. You don't pay for the drinks you had there either and don't care when the landlord insists you pay. This means you get into a lot of fights and spend a lot of time behind bars.

- You don't use the outhouse.

You literally have no concept of living like a civilised person, either because you simply don't care or are socially impaired.

Yeah, Charisma 4 is not playable. Intelligence 4 is much easier to play, especially if you've got Charisma 14 and are, therefore, kind of sweet and likable despite or because of your lack of brains.

All of those would be low-wis AND low-cha. any salty sam would know to hold their snyde comments about the king until after you've left the throne room.

any salty sam would know that lack of hygene leads to disease.

[Anonymouswizard]

For the record, I'm fairly certain empathy is Wisdom as much as it is Charisma. I see empathy as a requirement for a good Insight score.

The options for where to place the four are:
-Strength. Only place it here if there's either a high Strength guy in the party already, or your group isn't using encumbrance. You're restricted to a finesse fighter, and some spells could mess you up, but it's a viable build.
-Dexterity. It's certainly possible, you won't be getting proficiency on Dex saves anyway, so you could be eating a lot of AoE damage down the road, but the low initiative is really annoying.
-Intelligence. As people have said it's the least common save. It means you're probably very slow and/or haven't had a formal education, and you probably stick to simple sentences.
-Charisma. Despite what JellyPooga says, it's not being totally unaware of social niceties. With Int 14+ you've probably learnt them even if they don't come naturally to you (speaking as an autistic individual, although possibly with CHA as high as 12, you can become socially competent with effort). Maybe you don't care, and people can tell this, but you follow social norms to avoid repercussions. Maybe you have all the personality of a plastic sheet (far more boring than a wooden door). Maybe you're really socially awkward, and only know the basics of social niceties (heck, my Charisma score seems to vary with situation and the culture of who I'm speaking to, partially based on awkwardness). You have possibly severe difficulties interacting with people, but you aren't a social idiot who humps the barmaid in the middle of the tavern (you probably do it in the alley instead).

[weaseldust]

One idea for a low-charisma character I've discussed (though neither of us built it) is an earth genasi who doesn't recognise a boundary between them and the earth or any of its parts. They might have personality (habits, attitudes, likes and dislikes), but they would have no sense of self. A character might also have low charisma if they are exceptionally lazy, have very low self-esteem, or only value something with little connection to their own welfare or that of other people (e.g. mathematics or the resurrection of the elder gods).

As to which save is more important, it's worth keeping in mind that, if there is going to be any major addition to the game in the near future, it will probably be psionics. Whenever the Mystic is completed and introduced, I imagine there will also be new psionic monsters and NPCs released and I expect they will target intelligence saves a lot. Though perhaps you can be confident that, in your game, the DM will stick to core monsters, in which case that isn't such a big deal.

[JellyPooga]

-Charisma. Despite what JellyPooga says, it's not being totally unaware of social niceties.

It's not being unaware, it's not recognising them. You can be aware of a thing and not recognise its importance. With a high Wisdom, you can intuit someones motivations, but with a low Charisma, you either don't care or don't realise the importance of those motivations.

For instance; You're a Charisma 4 individual with Wisdom 14 (and no relevantly proficient skills, for the sake of argument). You're talking to a merchant that you want to purchase an item from. You insist that you think it's worth 2gp, but the price tag says 20gp. The merchant starts to get frustrated at your persistence; haggling is supposed to a back and forth, he'll gradually lower his price and you'll go a little higher. You, however, don't shift from your 2gp mark. So he's getting angry. You notice that he's getting angry, it's clear as day that he's angry, but you either don't care or don't understand why. After all, you consider the item to be worth 2gp, why is he getting angry over the fact that you're only willing to pay what it's worth? No matter how flustered or threatening he gets, you don't change your position and you don't leave the shop, waiting for him to either physically eject you or lower his price to 2gp. You don't have the social awareness to comprehend that perhaps you should either leave the shop, because your price insistence is clearly not going to fly, or that you should offer a slightly higher price. Whether you do it because you're a stubborn a-hole or because you literally don't understand the social contract involved in haggling, is irrelevant...you have Charisma 4. You're not just bad with people; you're offensive. You literally offend people by your presence and the things you do.

People get scared around sharks. Why? Is it because they're ugly? No, they're beautiful creatures. Is it because they're a predator? Yes. They're a dangerous creature; they attack anything they consider food and that's frightening. They only recognise the value of their own desires; in this case, the desire to feed.

Society depends on peoples recognition of the rights of other people. If someone fails to recognise those rights, for whatever reason, then that person is considered dangerous, whether or not they actually are. This is why people with severe mental illnesses are generally kept away from the rest of society; they may not be violent or aggressive, but they are dangerous because they have an inability to function as part of that society. They're a danger to themselves as much as they are others, if not more.

Someone with Charisma 4 has an inability to function in society. They might be very smart, perceptive, intuitive and the rest, but when it comes to interacting with other people...they simply fail. They can't do it. When they try, they end up making matters worse because people are aware of the fact that that person cannot function and is, therefore, a liability and a potential threat. People are scared of low Charisma. Charisma 4 gives people the willies, it unsettles them and makes them defensive at best. In the worst cases, it makes people form mobs, grab their pitchforks and chases the offending article out of town.

People don't like Sharks swimming near them or their families, even if the shark is just passing through. Even if the shark isn't a man-eater. Even if the shark has been demonstrably passive. They'll either remove themselves from the locale of the shark or drive the shark away somehow. That's what Charisma 4 means. It's being so offensive to other peoples sensibilities that regardless of your actual actions, other people will take offence and either leave your presence or drive you away from theirs.

tl;dr - Even if you're demonstrably not a monster, Charisma 4 makes people think you are.

[georgie_leech]

That's what Charisma 4 means.

[citation needed]

By that logic someone with a 16 in Charisma is so eloquent and able to manipulate those around him as to sweep everyone around them along with whatever they're planning with all the resistance that extras in spontaneous Disney musical numbers get. That's exactly as far from the theoretical human average of 10 as a 4 is, but in the opposite direction. That's not even getting into what masters of the human mind and emotions with CHA 20 must be like.

Or, it's the same distance, but rather than 16 CHA being representative of the most charming person possible, it means someone who is charming and likable but doesn't have the world thrown at their feet, and likewise CHA 4 represents someone who is generally unlikable and rude rather than being completely incapable of navigating social norms like not defecating inside. 3-18 are the limits for a starting adventurer after all, and a similar comparison to a STR 4 individual would be them lacking the strength to walk around. That's clearly ridiculous, because even if they have low Carrying capacity and non-finesse/ranged attacks are terrible, they're clearly still capable of wielding normal weaponry. Why go to such extremes for low mental attributes?

[Talamare]

It's not being unaware, it's not recognising them. You can be aware of a thing and not recognise its importance. With a high Wisdom, you can intuit someones motivations, but with a low Charisma, you either don't care or don't realise the importance of those motivations.

For instance; You're a Charisma 4 individual with Wisdom 14 (and no relevantly proficient skills, for the sake of argument). You're talking to a merchant that you want to purchase an item from. You insist that you think it's worth 2gp, but the price tag says 20gp. The merchant starts to get frustrated at your persistence; haggling is supposed to a back and forth, he'll gradually lower his price and you'll go a little higher. You, however, don't shift from your 2gp mark. So he's getting angry. You notice that he's getting angry, it's clear as day that he's angry, but you either don't care or don't understand why. After all, you consider the item to be worth 2gp, why is he getting angry over the fact that you're only willing to pay what it's worth? No matter how flustered or threatening he gets, you don't change your position and you don't leave the shop, waiting for him to either physically eject you or lower his price to 2gp. You don't have the social awareness to comprehend that perhaps you should either leave the shop, because your price insistence is clearly not going to fly, or that you should offer a slightly higher price. Whether you do it because you're a stubborn a-hole or because you literally don't understand the social contract involved in haggling, is irrelevant...you have Charisma 4. You're not just bad with people; you're offensive. You literally offend people by your presence and the things you do.

People get scared around sharks. Why? Is it because they're ugly? No, they're beautiful creatures. Is it because they're a predator? Yes. They're a dangerous creature; they attack anything they consider food and that's frightening. They only recognise the value of their own desires; in this case, the desire to feed.

Society depends on peoples recognition of the rights of other people. If someone fails to recognise those rights, for whatever reason, then that person is considered dangerous, whether or not they actually are. This is why people with severe mental illnesses are generally kept away from the rest of society; they may not be violent or aggressive, but they are dangerous because they have an inability to function as part of that society. They're a danger to themselves as much as they are others, if not more.

Someone with Charisma 4 has an inability to function in society. They might be very smart, perceptive, intuitive and the rest, but when it comes to interacting with other people...they simply fail. They can't do it. When they try, they end up making matters worse because people are aware of the fact that that person cannot function and is, therefore, a liability and a potential threat. People are scared of low Charisma. Charisma 4 gives people the willies, it unsettles them and makes them defensive at best. In the worst cases, it makes people form mobs, grab their pitchforks and chases the offending article out of town.

People don't like Sharks swimming near them or their families, even if the shark is just passing through. Even if the shark isn't a man-eater. Even if the shark has been demonstrably passive. They'll either remove themselves from the locale of the shark or drive the shark away somehow. That's what Charisma 4 means. It's being so offensive to other peoples sensibilities that regardless of your actual actions, other people will take offence and either leave your presence or drive you away from theirs.

tl;dr - Even if you're demonstrably not a monster, Charisma 4 makes people think you are.

Knowing the value of an object is your Int, not your Wis
Knowing the basics of haggling is again your Int, not your Cha
Knowing why he is getting angry is Wis, not your Cha
Knowing when you're not wanted is either Wis or Int, not Cha
Altho, having Low Cha absolutely means you're offensive. He probably won't even be that interested in haggling with you, since between each exchange of price you're probably insulting him, making obscene gestures, or just being ugly and disgusting
Knowing people's rights is Int



Someone with Charisma 4 has an inability to function in society. They might be very smart, perceptive, intuitive and the rest, but when it comes to interacting with other people...they simply fail. They can't do it. When they try, they end up making matters worse because people are aware of the fact that that person cannot function and is, therefore, a liability and a potential threat. People are scared of low Charisma. Charisma 4 gives people the willies, it unsettles them and makes them defensive at best. In the worst cases, it makes people form mobs, grab their pitchforks and chases the offending article out of town.
I do agree with this, even if you again go too far on your last sentence.

[JellyPooga]

That's exactly as far from the theoretical human average of 10 as a 4 is, but in the opposite direction. That's not even getting into what masters of the human mind and emotions with CHA 20 must be like.

Well the highest maximum Charisma using point buy for a Human is 15+1=16...rolled stats outside that "norm" should be consider to be highly exceptional cases, no?


3-18 are the limits for a starting adventurer after all, and a similar comparison to a STR 4 individual would be them lacking the strength to walk around. That's clearly ridiculous, because even if they have low Carrying capacity and non-finesse/ranged attacks are terrible, they're clearly still capable of wielding normal weaponry. Why go to such extremes for low mental attributes?

Well, Str 4 is capable of carrying up to 60lbs. of gear. On top of their own weight. In previous editions, there were rules for 0 attributes, but 5ed removed ability score penalties of that kind, preferring to replace them with the conditions like paralysed, grappled or restrained. The rules explicitly tell us that Str that low is still able to function with up to 60lbs. of additional weight. Using the variant encumbrance rules, a Str 4 character with 60lbs. of gear would be Heavily Encumbered, suffering a 20ft move penalty and Disadvantage on basically any physical activity. That's fairly crippling.

What the rules also tell us is that Charisma 4 is the same Charisma as loner animals like Sharks and Spiders, overtly aggressive monsters like Remorhaz and mindless automota like Zombies (which, upon researching them, actually have Charisma 5). Can you imagine a person with less social ability than a zombie?

I'll quote the PHB again "Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others.". 3 or 4 in an ability score represents a sever disfunction, just as much as 16+ in a score represents extreme proficiency. With a crippling Charisma of 4, you have an inability to interact effectively with others.


Knowing the value of an object is your Int, not your Wis
Knowing the basics of haggling is again your Int, not your Cha
Knowing why he is getting angry is Wis, not your Cha
Knowing when you're not wanted is either Wis or Int, not Cha
Altho, having Low Cha absolutely means you're offensive. He probably won't even be that interested in haggling with you, since between each exchange of price you're probably insulting him, making obscene gestures, or just being ugly and disgusting
Knowing people's rights is Int

Knowing all these things doesn't matter one whit if you don't recognise them. That's what a low Charisma impairs...not the knowledge, but the acknowledgment of them. Sure, you know that defecating in public is unhygienic and socially unacceptable, or whatever...but you don't recognise the society that doesn't accept that behaviour in the first place.

You can know that other people get along harmoniously, living in society and following the rules...but you don't understand why. Your social ability is crippled, it doesn't function, you don't understand why the members of that society follow the rules of it or why you should subscribe. To you, it doesn't make sense that someone should do something to their detriment, (like hand over money), to get what they want, (like receive a pint of ale). You understand the mechanics of the transaction, are perhaps even a proficient student of economics, but don't get why you can't just kill the landlord and take all the ale you want. That empathic understanding is beyond your capability.

Cha 4 means "act like a shark presented with a school of fish".

[Anonymouswizard]

It's not being unaware, it's not recognising them. You can be aware of a thing and not recognise its importance. With a high Wisdom, you can intuit someones motivations, but with a low Charisma, you either don't care or don't realise the importance of those motivations.

I've got my Player's Handbook open right in front of me. It's description of the three mental ability scores is:

Intelligence
Intelligence measures mental acuity, accuracy of recall, and the ability to reason.

Wisdom
Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and reflects perceptiveness and intuition.

Charisma
Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.

Or to simplify it, Intelligence is Reason, Wisdom is Perceptiveness, and Charisma is Force of Personality.


For instance; You're a Charisma 4 individual with Wisdom 14 (and no relevantly proficient skills, for the sake of argument). You're talking to a merchant that you want to purchase an item from. You insist that you think it's worth 2gp, but the price tag says 20gp. The merchant starts to get frustrated at your persistence; haggling is supposed to a back and forth, he'll gradually lower his price and you'll go a little higher. You, however, don't shift from your 2gp mark. So he's getting angry. You notice that he's getting angry, it's clear as day that he's angry, but you either don't care or don't understand why.

We have +2 Wisdom. We'll assume untrained Perception and Insight. I'd personally rule for an insight check to understand why (not caring could be a legitimate sign of low Charisma). I'd say DC10, but I can see an argument for DC 15 if your flaw is 'I'm clueless about how people actually feel'. So we can get a decent idea of why he's angry (I'm doing something wrong) with a 8+, or 13 times out of twenty. DC 15 should be sufficient to give us exactly what you are doing that's making him angry, so it happens on a 13+ or 2 times out of 5. Now you could argue for a DC 20 check to work it out, but then a Wisdom 18 character only knows what he did wrong one time out of four.

I could also see Wisdom (Insight) at DC 10 to notice you're doing something wrong and Intelligence at DC 15 to work out what it is, so let's assume we have 15 Intelligence (using the next-lowest score). Here we still know that we're doing something wrong 13 times out of twenty, but we only know what it is (13/20*2/5=26/100=13/50) thirteen times out of fifty. Most people I know don't have both INT and WIS at 14/15, and yet we don't seem to have such problems working out what we're doing wrong (2/5 times is reasonable enough for me to consider it).


After all, you consider the item to be worth 2gp, why is he getting angry over the fact that you're only willing to pay what it's worth? No matter how flustered or threatening he gets, you don't change your position and you don't leave the shop, waiting for him to either physically eject you or lower his price to 2gp. You don't have the social awareness to comprehend that perhaps you should either leave the shop, because your price insistence is clearly not going to fly, or that you should offer a slightly higher price. Whether you do it because you're a stubborn a-hole or because you literally don't understand the social contract involved in haggling, is irrelevant...you have Charisma 4. You're not just bad with people; you're offensive. You literally offend people by your presence and the things you do.

None of this sounds like social awareness. It sounds like bloody mindedness, which is certainly appropriate for low Charisma.

Note that here I'd expect our Charisma 4 person to give up once the merchant starts to get angry. You'll find a SENSIBLE merchant.


People get scared around sharks. Why? Is it because they're ugly? No, they're beautiful creatures. Is it because they're a predator? Yes. They're a dangerous creature; they attack anything they consider food and that's frightening. They only recognise the value of their own desires; in this case, the desire to feed.

Sounds like a lack of reasoning (INT) or perceptiveness (WIS) to me, not anything to do with force of personality.


Society depends on peoples recognition of the rights of other people. If someone fails to recognise those rights, for whatever reason, then that person is considered dangerous, whether or not they actually are. This is why people with severe mental illnesses are generally kept away from the rest of society; they may not be violent or aggressive, but they are dangerous because they have an inability to function as part of that society. They're a danger to themselves as much as they are others, if not more.

But Charisma 4 is not mentally ill. Charisma affects 4 skills: Deception, Intimidation, Performance, and Persuasion. Nothing about functioning in society (that would be reasoning to work out what to do or perceptiveness [WIS] to notice the cues), it's all about influencing people. Charisma 4 means you are BAD AT PEOPLE. It's like how Strength 4 doesn't make you unable to move due to being so weak.


Someone with Charisma 4 [I]has an inability to function in society. They might be very smart, perceptive, intuitive and the rest, but when it comes to interacting with other people...they simply fail. They can't do it. When they try, they end up making matters worse because people are aware of the fact that that person cannot function and is, therefore, a liability and a potential threat. People are scared of low Charisma. Charisma 4 gives people the willies, it unsettles them and makes them defensive at best. In the worst cases, it makes people form mobs, grab their pitchforks and chases the offending article out of town.

Someone with Charisma 4 pisses people off. They have few, if any friends, people don't want to sit next to them, people might not even notice them. They make social blunders, like not haggling correctly or being overly rude. It is not inherently scary.

Good luck scaring people with your -3 to intimidation rolls by the way. :smallwink:


People don't like Sharks swimming near them or their families, even if the shark is just passing through. Even if the shark isn't a man-eater. Even if the shark has been demonstrably passive. They'll either remove themselves from the locale of the shark or drive the shark away somehow. That's what Charisma 4 means. It's being so offensive to other peoples sensibilities that regardless of your actual actions, other people will take offence and either leave your presence or drive you away from theirs.

Maybe your Charisma 4 fighter has an intimidating presence that puts people off (again, -4 modifier to Intimidation checks, might want to rustle up some Expertise to represent that), because he doesn't understand social conventions.

My Charisma 4 fighter doesn't stop arguing when he's lost. He cannot say the right thing to save his life. His tone of voice always presents his words as an insult. He annoyed the merchant because he started haggling at an insultingly low price, and then refused to raise. It's entirely his actions that drive people away.


tl;dr - Even if you're demonstrably not a monster, Charisma 4 makes people think you are.

Oh boy, I've met people who I'd consider a 4-5 on Charisma. They don't make me think their a monster.

If I think someone's a monster, then they probably have a high Charisma because of that Atmosphere.

[pwykersotz]

Go 4 Con. It'll be a fun challenge, and you get to play a guy who is always sneezing, borrowing a handkerchief, worrying about the dank air in dungeons, then whips out and wrecks things on command.

Very suboptimal, but it could be fun. :smallwink:

[georgie_leech]

A basilisk has 7 CHA, despite trying to devour and kill any humanoid that approaches it. A beholder is explicitly xenophobic and narcissistic, combining a belief that they are perfect, all other be holders are imperfect degenerate forms, and all sentient beings exist solely to serve as food or as tools to further their alien agendas, and yet they have a whopping 17 CHA, higher than the possible starting human array. The death tyrant, which piles on an implacable drive to kill and reanimated as mindless zombies? 19. I don't think there's a consistent reasoning behind what level of societal awareness a monster's CHA implies. Otherwise we need to accept that a Tyrannosaurus Rex is more able to navigate society than many adventurers.

[MeeposFire]

Remember it is also force of personality and isn't just pissing people off.

You are not very convincing even if you have the right answer (you can see that with some professors when they try to convince people over loud public figures).

You are so lacking in personality that you try to be like everybody else instead of being your own person.


People will often forget they even seen you around unless you happen to do something to be noticed in which case they are predisposed to taking it in a negative way.

It is not necessarily being rude for example. A high int and wisdom but low cha character may know what is considered rude but even when making sure to avoid doing that he will still make people unhappy with him (perhaps by sounding insincere even if he is sincere).

People will not believe in the character even if he is correct and competent. The commander will have a sure win strategy but he will have to rely only on the brilliance of the plan because people will not want to follow him.

People may not even be able to explain why they do not like or believe in the character. All they know is that they just don't.

[MaxWilson]

I am building a Fighter, and roiled this array.

17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 4.

Yes 4.

Question is, I am assuming the two stats a fighter can safely put that 4 in is int or cha. So, assuming that is correct, which of those two saves will hurt me the most to have a -3 in?

Put it in Str. Make a Dex-based Sharpshooter Eldritch Knight Gnome.

Name him Yoda.

[JellyPooga]

I don't think there's a consistent reasoning behind what level of societal awareness a monster's CHA implies.

You're looking at it from the wrong direction. You can be a "monster" and have high Charisma. Having a low Charisma makes people think you're a monster. Example;

Toff Toffinton is well dressed, clearly wealthy, handsome and charming. He also kills every girl he sleeps with, just for kicks. He covers his tracks well and where he can't, he uses his money to buy peoples silence.

Jag Jagger is unkempt, unsociable, swears, talks to himself and is generally very unpleasant to be around. He works in a slaughterhouse and doesn't wash his clothes...ever.

Which one's the "monster"?
Which one is going to be shunned by society?


Good luck scaring people with your -3 to intimidation rolls by the way.

Frightening people =/= making an Intimidation check. Zombies are scary, but don't need to make Intimidation checks. Intimidation is for when you are trying to scare someone. Someone with very low Charisma is inherently frightening to others, largely because that low Charisma person isn't buying into the social contract in one way or another. That makes people edgy, at best.

As for the numbers game. Strictly speaking a Str 4 person can beat a Str 20 one in an armwrestling match if they roll well. Don't trust the numbers; they'll lie to you.

@all my detractors; I'm not trying to convince anyone that the next time they play a low Charisma character that they need to go poop on the carpet. I'm trying to get you to think about what, exactly, that low Charisma means. It implies a lack of social awareness, that "creep factor" that you get around someone who you know to be highly intelligent, but there's something...off about the way he perceives other people.

For Example; It's that slimy feeling you get from a pimp because you know he views women as objects; he doesn't buy into the social contract that women should be treated equally to men; he has a gap in his social awareness that should be telling him "you're being a douche-bag". That's what I'm talking about, but on a very extreme scale.

How does low Charisma come into this? What gives you low Charisma? It's being rude, disregarding your own appearance and personal hygiene, making caustic remarks, behaving in an unsavoury manner and so on and so forth...it's having a disregard for the social contract that tells us that we should be decent folk and respect others. Taken to an extreme (and Cha 4 is extreme), it means you have that "gap" in your understanding somewhere, same as the pimp...you might recognise the facts, but you don't comprehend them; the concept doesn't make sense to your understanding. That's what I'm saying Charisma 4 means; it's root, if you will.

[djreynolds]

I am building a Fighter, and roiled this array.

17, 16, 15, 15, 14, 4.

Yes 4.

Question is, I am assuming the two stats a fighter can safely put that 4 in is int or cha. So, assuming that is correct, which of those two saves will hurt me the most to have a -3 in?

You love to kill, you are always talking about tactics and monster you've killed an how to do it right, etc... A scrappy, know-it all jerk. You tell casters what to prepare and when to cast. Overbearing jerk... that no one listens to. Always complaining.

[georgie_leech]

snip

No, I'm questioning whether we can use 'less CHA than a zombie' as a valid metric for measuring what a low CHA score means. Perhaps I mispoke as I wasn't referring to a monster in the pejorative sense but in the 'this thing is in the Monster Manual' sense. To put it more bluntly, if a CHA 4 implies such extreme social disability as that which you're arguing on the basis of it being less than what a zombie has, what does it mean that any adventure with a starting score of CHA 8 has a lower CHA than a Tyrannosaurus Rex (CHA 9)?

[JoeJ]

The range of possibility ability scores is 3-20 for humans who are professional adventurers. Nothing in this range should be considered crippling, or make it impossible to live as an independent adult, able to get along in society.

[Anonymouswizard]

No, I'm questioning whether we can use 'less CHA than a zombie' as a valid metric for measuring what a low CHA score means. Perhaps I mispoke as I wasn't referring to a monster in the pejorative sense but in the 'this thing is in the Monster Manual' sense. To put it more bluntly, if a CHA 4 implies such extreme social disability as that which you're arguing on the basis of it being less than what a zombie has, what does it mean that any adventure with a starting score of CHA 8 has a lower CHA than a Tyrannosaurus Rex (CHA 9)?

I know my female Air Genasi noble rogue with 14 Charisma is useless socially, because she has less CHA than a solitary monster that thinks that it, personally, is the pinnacle of design.

@JellyPooga, what you say and what you claim to say are two different things. What you claim to be saying is completely correct, and what most people arguing against you are saying. What you are actually saying isn't 'decide what low Charisma means', you're saying 'low Charisma means you're an idiot who doesn't understand the social contract'.

On the other hand, if your group is fine with it, I'm fine for you to interpret a score of 4 or below as a disability in that area. I played in a game system where you could make yourself disabled by dropping your points low enough, you essentially had to roll an 8 or higher to succeed on routine tasks (you could also minmax yourself to be unable to hurt people with knives, which created a 'scratch damage' rule). This was an explicit decision the player made by dropping a stat to a 6 (or a 5, although my 'killed by a stiff breeze' character build was vetoed for taking the piss*), and worked within the assumptions of the system.

Just work out what a 4 in WIS and INT means (relatively easy), as well as what to do with a physical stat under 5. If a certain stat below X causes problems, every stat should cause problems if you've dropped it below X.

* You had HP equal to your health, and could take a flaw to reduce it by 3. Also, Health under 7 meant to had to roll to avoid staying in bed from the common cold. I had a character build that had 2hp, not enough money for armour, and was looking for a way to reduce it further when the banhammer hit Health below 7.