Demilich build

[PF159]

So I got a session to build a level 30 character and I was looking into a demilich. So I want see what builds are best for this lich. Limited to all 3.5 books, level 30 gold start and no dragon magazine.

From the groups understanding is that lich is a +4 LA from MM1... and puts me at lvl29 in class building and ECL30 (this is approved by all players and DM)

Reminder for epic-spellcasting i need a high Spellcraft also.

[Inevitability]

Be a full caster, become a lich, become a demilich, and take Epic Spellcasting.

Also, remember that while it might usually be the case, a demilich doesn't have to be a skull. You can be a flying middle finger of doom if you want to!

[Bronk]

Well, it looks like the LA for a regular lich is +4, and judging from the example monsters, the LA for a demilich is +8 on top of that.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5734037&postcount=6

At ECL30, you would have 18 levels to work with, so epic spellcasting isn't on the table yet, but there's also no reason you have to be a full caster either, you just need 3 caster levels to be able to take the 'craft wondrous item' feat to make your phylactery.

[DarkSoul]

Dread Necromancer 20/Something Else 2, Demilich, go.

Going down the Corpsecrafter line for a few BAMF undead maybe.

[Deophaun]

Can't do it. Impossible.


Liches have phylacteries that allow them to reappear 1d10 days after their apparent death, as do demiliches. Demiliches also have eight soul gems, each of which acts like a phylactery in its own right. If all the soul gems, as well as the demilich’s phylactery, are not destroyed after a demilich is downed, the demilich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death. The soul gems also allow the demilich to use its most devastating ability, trap the soul (see above). Each demilich must make its own soul gems, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Each soul gem costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. Soul gems appear as egg-shaped gems of wondrous quality. They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich.

With the +12 LA from Lich and Demilich template, you are sporting an ECL of 33.


Dread Necromancer 20/Something Else 2, Demilich, go.
Even more impossible, as you still need 21 levels of either sorcerer, wizard, or cleric on top of that, as Dread Necros don't qualify.

[Zanos]

Is there a rule that you can calculate LA from CR? I don't think there is. One could either assume demilich has LA: - or LA: 0.

Personally I don't think LA 0 is unreasonable, since the template costs 1,080,000 gp and 43200 XP You also have to be a Lich, which is one of the templates that is very far from worth it's level adjustment.

[DarkSoul]

Even more impossible, as you still need 21 levels of either sorcerer, wizard, or cleric on top of that, as Dread Necros don't qualify.

Not allowing liches or demiliches to have prestige class levels is completely absurd in my opinion. So is not allowing the arcane caster that becomes a lich at level 20 to become a demilich. The OP should talk to their DM about Dread Necro demilich. If that doesn't work, then Dread Necro 21/Sorcerer 1 fulfills the letter of the SRD's rule, because you are both a sorcerer and at least 21st level. Whether that's the intended spirit of the rule is up to personal interpretation. Personally, I think it should say Arcane or Divine spellcaster, which it likely would had the ELH been printed after other caster base classes had come along.

[Deophaun]

The OP should talk to their DM about Dread Necro demilich. If that doesn't work, then Dread Necro 21/Sorcerer 1 fulfills the letter of the SRD's rule, because you are both a sorcerer and at least 21st level.
But you are not a sorcerer of 21st level.


Personally, I think it should say Arcane or Divine spellcaster, which it likely would had the ELH been printed after other caster base classes had come along.
A shame that we had to wait for splatbooks before getting bards, druids, paladins, and rangers.

[Arundel]

A shame that we had to wait for splatbooks before getting bards, druids, paladins, and rangers.

A bard demilich would be fantastic. I don't really see how you could get a paladin demilich though.

[DarkSoul]

But you are not a sorcerer of 21st level.

Yes you are. You are both a sorcerer and 21st level. There's nothing in what you quoted (which only applies to creating soul gems, incidentally) that says you have to have 21 levels of wizard, sorcerer, or cleric. You don't even need to be a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer to become a lich in the first place, so why is there suddenly a restriction on who can create soul gems?


A shame that we had to wait for splatbooks before getting bards, druids, paladins, and rangers.

All of those can become liches by level 22 save the Paladin, who falls before making it that far. Adding Complete Arcane lets the ranger become a lich at level 14, with Practiced Spellcaster. An ex-paladin blackguard could do the same. Other than a straight paladin, every class mentioned thus far can become a lich, so why can they not become a demilich?

[The Glyphstone]

Yes you are. You are both a sorcerer and 21st level. There's nothing in what you quoted (which only applies to creating soul gems, incidentally) that says you have to have 21 levels of wizard, sorcerer, or cleric. You don't even need to be a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer to become a lich in the first place, so why is there suddenly a restriction on who can create soul gems?



All of those can become liches by level 22 save the Paladin, who falls before making it that far. Adding Complete Arcane lets the ranger become a lich at level 14, with Practiced Spellcaster. An ex-paladin blackguard could do the same. Other than a straight paladin, every class mentioned thus far can become a lich, so why can they not become a demilich?

The language of the original core books, and the 3.0 ELH, distinguishes between class level and character level. A Sorcerer 21 is a Sorcerer of 21st level, and a 21st-level character. A Dread Necromancer 20/Sorcerer 1 is a Dread Necromancer of 20th-level, a Sorcerer of 1st level, and a 21st-level character, but not a Sorcerer of 21st-level. We just use backslashes as shorthand to avoid typing all that out.

As to whether other classes, prestige classes, and such should be able to? Absolutely. Whether, by RAW, they can? Probably not - but no one uses Epic RAW anyways, so what is written can be accepted alongside acknowledgement that it shouldn't see table play as written. The rule is poorly worded, in large part because Demiliches were likely never intended to be PC Playable until the ELH update shoehorned a LA onto them.

(And to play devil's advocate in fluff, half-casters could perform the rituals to become a Lich, but only a full caster has the magical mastery and dedication to complete the demilich transformation. Though that doesn't explain how a Cleric can create Soul Gems (which they can) when Trap The Soul is an Arcane-exclusive spell and clearly an important component of said gems, so I think we just shouldn't look too closely period.)

[DarkSoul]

The language of the original core books, and the 3.0 ELH, distinguishes between class level and character level. A Sorcerer 21 is a Sorcerer of 21st level, and a 21st-level character. A Dread Necromancer 20/Sorcerer 1 is a Dread Necromancer of 20th-level, a Sorcerer of 1st level, and a 21st-level character, but not a Sorcerer of 21st-level. We just use backslashes as shorthand to avoid typing all that out.

As to whether other classes, prestige classes, and such should be able to? Absolutely. Whether, by RAW, they can? Probably not - but no one uses Epic RAW anyways, so what is written can be accepted alongside acknowledgement that it shouldn't see table play as written. The rule is poorly worded, in large part because Demiliches were likely never intended to be PC Playable until the ELH update shoehorned a LA onto them.

(And to play devil's advocate in fluff, half-casters could perform the rituals to become a Lich, but only a full caster has the magical mastery and dedication to complete the demilich transformation. Though that doesn't explain how a Cleric can create Soul Gems (which they can) when Trap The Soul is an Arcane-exclusive spell and clearly an important component of said gems, so I think we just shouldn't look too closely period.)Agreed, the rules are poorly worded regarding who can become a lich or demilich.

To step away from the pedantry, my advice to the OP is still to try to clear Dread Necromancer 22 (there's likely nothing better to do with 2 levels after dread necromancer 20, unless there's a prestige class that's worth taking just 2 levels in) with their DM, as it will save them 4 points of LA and actually make playing a demilich possible in a level 30 game.

[DrMotives]

Demilich is a weird, poorly edited creature, which I blame on it appearing in the ELH. In the start of the demilich entry, it says that "demilich is a template that can be added to any lich". The part about only being one of those 3 classes isn't thrown out there until the section on soul gems specifically. And as a base lich can be any caster capable of getting Create Wondrous Item & having a CL of 11 or higher, including the sample adept lich in the the Book of Bad Latin, that line really makes no bloody sense.

[Melcar]

Well, it looks like the LA for a regular lich is +4, and judging from the example monsters, the LA for a demilich is +8 on top of that.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5734037&postcount=6

At ECL30, you would have 18 levels to work with, so epic spellcasting isn't on the table yet, but there's also no reason you have to be a full caster either, you just need 3 caster levels to be able to take the 'craft wondrous item' feat to make your phylactery.

Well its a level 30 character, not an ECL 30, therefore the character will simply be CR 38 when done...

[ShurikVch]

A bard demilich would be fantastic. I don't really see how you could get a paladin demilich though.Morte (http://torment.wikia.com/wiki/Morte) from Planescape: Torment was statted in Dragon #264 as "Skull of 10th-level Human Bard".
Not a "real Demilich", but still...

Book of Bad LatinHarry Potter? :smallbiggrin:

[OldTrees1]

Is there a rule that you can calculate LA from CR? I don't think there is. One could either assume demilich has LA: - or LA: 0.

Personally I don't think LA 0 is unreasonable, since the template costs 1,080,000 gp and 43200 XP You also have to be a Lich, which is one of the templates that is very far from worth it's level adjustment.

No one responded to this post since the LA for Demilich is visible in the ECL of the example Demilich as seen in the ECL of example Epic Monsters table earlier in the Epic Level Handbook.

[Zancloufer]

Well, it looks like the LA for a regular lich is +4, and judging from the example monsters, the LA for a demilich is +8 on top of that.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5734037&postcount=6

At ECL30, you would have 18 levels to work with, so epic spellcasting isn't on the table yet, but there's also no reason you have to be a full caster either, you just need 3 caster levels to be able to take the 'craft wondrous item' feat to make your phylactery.

Isn't the Lich/Demi-lich acquired templates? Which means you could take 21 caster (Wizard or Sorcerer) levels, get epic spell casting and then become a lich and then a demi-lich. Yes your ELC would be 33, but LA doesn't retroactively un-level someone, just delays the rate they gain exp. Something that people miss when jumping straight into a high level character is how the character was built level-by level before then.

I mean yeah you are technically only level 21, but you have level 30 WBL, like double immortality and epic spell casting. Just take item creation and meta-magic feats and the build is solid.

[Melcar]

Isn't the Lich/Demi-lich acquired templates? Which means you could take 21 caster (Wizard or Sorcerer) levels, get epic spell casting and then become a lich and then a demi-lich. Yes your ELC would be 33, but LA doesn't retroactively un-level someone, just delays the rate they gain exp. Something that people miss when jumping straight into a high level character is how the character was built level-by level before then.

I mean yeah you are technically only level 21, but you have level 30 WBL, like double immortality and epic spell casting. Just take item creation and meta-magic feats and the build is solid.

Indeed, however the OP did say level 30, so the LA in really not important here. IMO since the fact you just mentioned.

[Deophaun]

A bard demilich would be fantastic. I don't really see how you could get a paladin demilich though.
A core Paladin would have to go through the Blackguard PrC. Otherwise, once Unearthed Arcana hit, Paladins of Tyranny and Slaughter would have qualified.

[Bronk]

Isn't the Lich/Demi-lich acquired templates? Which means you could take 21 caster (Wizard or Sorcerer) levels, get epic spell casting and then become a lich and then a demi-lich. Yes your ELC would be 33, but LA doesn't retroactively un-level someone, just delays the rate they gain exp. Something that people miss when jumping straight into a high level character is how the character was built level-by level before then.

If you're starting a game at level 30, which is the same as ECL level 30, then your character can't be above that when you start the game.

However, he could just be a level 30 mortal wizard, though, and become the lich and demilich in-game somehow, or a level 26 wizard lich and have becoming a demilich his goal.



I mean yeah you are technically only level 21, but you have level 30 WBL, like double immortality and epic spell casting. Just take item creation and meta-magic feats and the build is solid.

The double immortality thing is actually a neat concept... fluff-wise, he'd be playing an epic construct-like guardian undead while his true life force is out travelling the planes, not even interacting with the game!

[Zancloufer]

If you're starting a game at level 30, which is the same as ECL level 30, then your character can't be above that when you start the game.

However, he could just be a level 30 mortal wizard, though, and become the lich and demilich in-game somehow, or a level 26 wizard lich and have becoming a demilich his goal.


Point. Though as you said what is stopping the player from being a level 26 lich and having about 1.3mil GP worth of his WBL (which is about 3million iirc) being soul gems. I mean those are useful for evil spellcasters. Also people wanting to become demiliches. Then you can become a demilich during the first in-game session.



Also looking over the demilich I noticed two things: First it's only +6 to ELC not +8.
Secondly: Magic Immunity on steroids. How exactly does that work? Does it work like an AMF that let's certain spells through, is there a way to by-pass it other than the three white-listed spells?

[Bronk]

Also looking over the demilich I noticed two things: First it's only +6 to ELC not +8.
Secondly: Magic Immunity on steroids. How exactly does that work? Does it work like an AMF that let's certain spells through, is there a way to by-pass it other than the three white-listed spells?

Well, I think the idea was that on page 156 of the ELH, it lists the demilich, which is 21HD, as having an ECL of 33. So, that's twelve, and four of that is average lich which is four, which is where they were getting eight from.

The magic immunity is weird. It's definitely a 3.0 thing that wasn't updated at all. It wasn't mentioned at all in the 3.5 update booklet, for example, but to heck with that thing - it also lists that the demilich is a vermin instead of an undead! If you updated it by switching it to the 3.5 version of magic immunity, you could still affect yourself, since it follows the rules for spell resistance and could be voluntarily lowered.