I Hate Undertale

[8BitNinja]

Everyone has been caught up in the hype of Undertale, the internet won't stop going on about it, there's fans liking the game more than any healthy person should, critics giving it more praise than it deserves, and awful shippings (but that always happens)

If you hate or dislike the game Undertale, talk about it here

NOTE: This is nothing against fans of the game or Toby Fox, this is my personal opinion so if you don't like it, deal with it

If you want to know why, I am working on a video for that, but for now, I'll tell you on this forum

Undertale is mainly repulsive to me because of attempting to glorify the pacifist run by ruining it. As most of you know, In RPGs ever since the beginning, you never had to kill anyone, and even in D&D, you could get bonuses for pacifism. When video games really hit the mainstream, most if not all games focused around conflict, and the easiest thing to do was to resolve it with violence. Killing your enemy made the game easier, so the most hardcore decided to try to get through the game without killing. While this was very difficult, it was and is done, even in most RPGs. Undertale ruined that by not only expecting you to do it, but making it easier. Imagine if not only a PHd was expected of you to get in college, but easier than a bachelor's degree, it would ruin becoming a PHd. Yes, you can kill, but doing so will open up fights with harder bosses and enemies, and it will also cause the game to be mean to you for doing so.

and that is just one reason I don't like Undertale

[ElFi]

I want to start by saying I'm not commenting on this thread to argue. I just want to say my piece and leave.

That done, your post intrigued me because you're the first person I've ever met who genuinely didn't like Undertale. I will agree that the game's not perfect, the rave reviews critics give it could be toned down a little, and the odd and frankly gross shipping fandom disgusts me just as much as it does you.

But at the same time, I think you're missing the point of the game.

Admittedly, the base lure of the game is "you don't have to kill any enemies, and usually it's very simple not to". But Undertale uses that device as a springboard to launch into one of its main themes; specifically, moral agency as a protagonist and as a player. There are consequences for your actions, good and bad. The story changes every time you choose whether to spare or kill an enemy, be it a mook or a boss. And the question that Undertale asks you is "if you could spare an enemy even though you have the option of killing them, shouldn't you?" Because the monsters in Undertale aren't, well, monsters. They're people even if they aren't human, and they have lives and personalities and families, which isn't something you can say for the average character in any other video game where a "pacifist run" is an option, built-in or otherwise. The game forces you to take a long, hard look at your choices as a player and as a person, and asks you if being evil in a game reflects on how you act in real-life.

Maybe it doesn't. I don't know you as a person, and I can understand your gripes about the game. But at the same time these gripes are ignoring the fundamental themes of the game, and I'm not going to just sit here and read them without saying my piece in return. I hope you understand my viewpoint.

[Draconi Redfir]

yeah i'm with you on this one, not for the exact same reasons, but yeah, the whole thing does grate on my nerves.

For the most part it's a simple case of me having little to no interest in the thing at all, a mere case of "Oh, undertale? Uhhh... kay. don't think i'll play this one." Followed swiftly by practically every online entertainment source i partake in suddenly becoming swarmed in the thing. Blogs i follow, youtubers i watch, freinds i talk too, all going from "minecraft, homestuck, god of war, D&D, xcom, etc" to a sudden and unprecedented flood of "UNDERTALE UNDERTALE UNDERTALE UNDERTALE UNDERTALE!" It's like... Hamburgers, okay? Assume for example that you don't really care about hamburgers, they're okay you guess, and you'd eat them if they were put in front of you, but if given the option you'd choose literally anything else. Now imagine that every resturaunt, in every city, in every country you ever visited, served nothing but hamburgers, and the people there did nothing but talk about how "amazing" the hamburgers are. It's like that.

It's worse when you see fans of the game pushing it on content creators like game theory, honest trailers, and lets-players, a constant stream of "undertale! undertale! undertale!" in the comments section just flooding the page, even if the youtuber in question has expressed little to no interest in the game to begin with, people just keep pushing for it until they finally give in.

So yeah. My only real problem with the game is the sheer over-saturation I’ve seen of it in art, music, videos, discussions, you can't turn your head without hitting some comment about sans or undine or whatever.

All respect to toby fox of course, i don't know nor really care for the story myself, but the dude's apparently created some quality story and characters, and I’m not gunna hate on that. i just wish the fans could tone it down a bit.

To be fair i have sort of pseudo-promised myself that i would play the game, but only under very specific circumstances, firstly i'd only ever play it if somebody else bought it for me, and secondly, I’d only play genocide runs. that one is more out of spite then much else. but yeah.

All in all, i just... really don't care. and it gets tiring when it's more or less the only thing people are talking about these days.

[Domino Quartz]

Undertale is mainly repulsive to me because of attempting to glorify the pacifist run by ruining it...Undertale ruined that by not only expecting you to do it, but making it easier.

You're actually wrong about Pacifist being easier than killing things. The easiest way to play the game is to kill everything you come across, because then you gain EXP and LV, thus raising your attack (meaning that fights will be over sooner) and HP (meaning that you can take more hits before dying). While that doesn't make too much of a difference when it comes to random encounters, when it comes to a lot of the bosses, it makes it a whole lot easier. There are at least several bosses that are easier to kill than to defeat in the pacifist way. The stuff you seem to think is the result of killing anything is actually something you have to really go out of your way to do (no, simply killing everything you come across is not enough). Not only that, but the game seems (to me, at least, based on how the first boss battle works and the dialogue of one of the characters near the end) to be designed so that you have a neutral run first, and a pacifist run after that.

I think the main problem is that the fanbase has spoiled the different kinds of runs for everyone - whenever someone does a "let's play", they're expected to do either full pacifist or full genocide (usually the former), with people in the comment section repeatedly saying (often in all caps) "REMEMBER: DON'T KILL ANYONE" (I have seen this in several different let's plays). If you play it blind or mostly blind (which is admittedly difficult right now), and of your own accord (rather than "under protest", as it were) you'll have a much better time. I watched ProJared play it, and he didn't seem to have that great of a time playing it. He only did a let's play of it due to people badgering him, and he had a number of important plot points spoiled for him. However, I have also watched other YouTubers do let's plays of it, and because they were doing it mostly blind and of their own accord, they had a much better time.


To be fair i have sort of pseudo-promised myself that i would play the game, but only under very specific circumstances, firstly i'd only ever play it if somebody else bought it for me, and secondly, I’d only play genocide runs. that one is more out of spite then much else. but yeah.

By the way, doing a particular thing "out of spite" seems awfully petty to me. Also, unless you're doing a let's play of it, who's the spite going to affect other than you?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Undertale pacifist is easier? I wish. That would be my one true, major complaint about the game; Undyne's fight is terribly designed.

[BRC]

Undertale is mainly repulsive to me because of attempting to glorify the pacifist run by ruining it. As most of you know, In RPGs ever since the beginning, you never had to kill anyone, and even in D&D, you could get bonuses for pacifism. When video games really hit the mainstream, most if not all games focused around conflict, and the easiest thing to do was to resolve it with violence. Killing your enemy made the game easier, so the most hardcore decided to try to get through the game without killing. While this was very difficult, it was and is done, even in most RPGs. Undertale ruined that by not only expecting you to do it, but making it easier. Imagine if not only a PHd was expected of you to get in college, but easier than a bachelor's degree, it would ruin becoming a PHd. Yes, you can kill, but doing so will open up fights with harder bosses and enemies, and it will also cause the game to be mean to you for doing so.

I think it's a very different scenario.

Let's compare Undertale to, say, Dishonored, another game where it is possible to get through the entire game without killing anyone.


Dishonored is a game designed with the assumption that, at least in some cases, the Player will kill enemies, whether it's random guards, or their actual assassination targets. There is no individual NPC that you MUST kill, you can sneak past them, knock them out with nonlethal methods, or use whatever non-lethal option the story gives you to dispose of the target. As a result, a Pacifist run of Dishonored, while perfectly doable, is a deliberate challenge over a "Standard" playthrough.

For a game like Fallout 4, while certain scripted scenarios can be handled with talking or stealth, much of the game is designed around combat, with enemies trying to kill you for the crime of being too close to them, and many story missions are based around scripted combat sequences. So, doing a "Pacifist" run of Fallout 4 is not only a challenge, it's nearly impossible in many cases.

Undertale is designed to have Pacifist and Genocide runs existing as deliberate in-game entities. The Undertale Pacifist run is neither intended to be a challenge, nor do I ever see it discussed as one. It's not a challenge, it's a different way to play the game, like a Paragon vs Renegade run in Mass Effect. From the start the game tells you that there is always a pacifist option.


Plus, I reject the idea that any given game can "Ruin" the idea of Pacifist, or any other type of Challenge run. Nobody is going to respond to a story about doing a pacifist run in Fallout with "That's nothing, anybody can do a pacifist run. I did it in Undertale!"
Doing a pacifist run in Undertale, especially since you can just look up all the solutions to the puzzles (And the pacifist run does turn the fights into puzzles) online, is about as impressive as doing a a pacifist run in Rollercoaster Tycoon.

A Pacifist run isn't impressive because you managed to complete a video game without ending any virtual lives. It's only impressive to the degree that the game in question asks/expects you to kill your virtual foes. Undertale constantly reminds you that you can spare your enemies, and that you should.

Not saying you have to like undertale, but I can't say I agree with the idea that it's somehow tainting the nobility of doing pacifist runs in video games.

[Forum Explorer]

You know, I've never really understood the 'over-saturation' argument. Is it really so hard to avoid something that is popular that you personally don't like (or don't care about)?

I've never had that problem, barring songs on the radio at work (when I can't drop what I'm doing to change the channel)

But for everything else, I've found it really trivial to avoid, just by glancing over, ignoring, and/or pressing next/clicking the next link depending on what exactly I'm doing.

So what is the behavior that is bringing you into contact with your hated material so frequently? I know my internet behaviors are not necessarily the norm, so I'm genuinely curious what it is that is causing this difference.

(Yes, this post is barely Undertale related, but it seems as good as time as any to ask this question).

[Togath]

Everyone has been caught up in the hype of Undertale, the internet won't stop going on about it, there's fans liking the game more than any healthy person should, critics giving it more praise than it deserves, and awful shippings (but that always happens)

If you hate or dislike the game Undertale, talk about it here

NOTE: This is nothing against fans of the game or Toby Fox, this is my personal opinion so if you don't like it, deal with it

If you want to know why, I am working on a video for that, but for now, I'll tell you on this forum

Undertale is mainly repulsive to me because of attempting to glorify the pacifist run by ruining it. As most of you know, In RPGs ever since the beginning, you never had to kill anyone, and even in D&D, you could get bonuses for pacifism. When video games really hit the mainstream, most if not all games focused around conflict, and the easiest thing to do was to resolve it with violence. Killing your enemy made the game easier, so the most hardcore decided to try to get through the game without killing. While this was very difficult, it was and is done, even in most RPGs. Undertale ruined that by not only expecting you to do it, but making it easier. Imagine if not only a PHd was expected of you to get in college, but easier than a bachelor's degree, it would ruin becoming a PHd. Yes, you can kill, but doing so will open up fights with harder bosses and enemies, and it will also cause the game to be mean to you for doing so.

and that is just one reason I don't like Undertale

It's nice to know I'm not the only one who dislikes the game and the massive hype around it, even if it's for different reasons in my case(mostly me finding it pretentious and overly meta, and the parts people praise being done better in plenty of other games. The terrible graphics don't help either[seriously, there's a reason games nowadays don't look like they did in the 80s... And why do so many gamers nowadays have "nostalgia" for a period before they started gaming? I'm fine with pixil-y 2d, but undertale is the sort of "blobs! blobs everywhere!" graphics I despise, and with the colours bleached out in odd places on top])

[Lord Raziere]

@ 8bitninja: it sounds to me like your gripe is basically "I was doing pacifist runs before it was mainstream".

but really, I was being all backlashy before I played the game as well, I read all the spoilers before I ever played it, and knew what it was about and thought about not playing it because I like being an action hero kind of guy, and action and fighting means someone dies, thats just what happens in the genre

but then I actually decided to give it a try of my own choice and play it through as intended: first a neutral run then a pacifist run. neutral run, I left it purely up to my own preferences and how much I cared to spare or kill somebody, not making any attempt at being morally pure or going out my way to hate anybody. the result was that I ended up killing most random monsters I came across but spared all the main characters and ones that got dialogue. it was simply more expedient to quickly kill random encounters, while for bosses they had lots of health anyways and would take long to kill, so I might as well try and find an alternate way to win.

the Pacifist run was interesting because it isn't JUST about not killing anybody actually. when I looked up how to actually do it, it turns out you have to build relationships with main characters and go out of your way to befriend them. If you just gone through not killing anybody but not caring about any of the characters, you wouldn't get the best ending. when I was doing the Neutral one, I didn't befriend any of the characters with a proper "date" and thought that their calls to go hangout were unimportant. there is a lot about the game that only activates under certain conditions that you wouldn't figure out at first.

while I watched a lets play of a Genocide run.....and well there is a good why I stopped at Pacifist and am not going to try it: there is simply no glamour or glory to it. a Genocide run is kind of like a game of chicken: see how close you can get before you pull away. If you get close as possible but pull away in time your badass. if you get too close and get wrecked, you just messed up everything for yourself. but even if you pull away in time, your still kind of a guy who played a game of chicken which is a stupid thing to do all by itself. Even if you pull away in time, there will still be reminders that you DID IT. and truly doing it all the way just plain makes it so you'll always be reminded of it forever.

but really, the charm of the game is not about the specific paths....its how the characters change in response to you when you go through a situation a second time. most won't remember, but their responses will change anyways because you already experienced it before. how you save and load things is important in this game! and even if you hard reset...there are still reminders of your last play throughs.

so yeah, once I actually gave it a chance, I liked it for its examination of consequences and how its set up so that even if you reload you can never truly experience a situation the same way again. even if I didn't care for the characters at first, they grew on me once I looked at them more, even if Papyrus is still my least liked character.

so yeah. if your hating it just because of backlash reasons and overhype....I'd say chill out and just give it a chance, you don't have to do a pacifist run right off the bat, and unless you follow specific instructions you won't trigger Genocide. just do a neutral run, make whatever decisions you want, see where it takes you.

[Hiro Protagonest]

(mostly me finding it pretentious and overly meta,

Pretentious? My problem is more that Toby doesn't stick to his guns enough; he puts in a character like Flowey who does get pretentious, then he pulls back by talking about how silly his game is (not the jokes in the game itself, the things he says on Twitter and such). As for meta, that's more subjective but I love whenever a game examines how the game mechanics fits into its world (which is a gripe that I have for games like Rune Factory and Fantasy Life, and most RPGs in general, because of how much gameplay-story segregation they tend to have. The only reason I don't complain about it is because it's so baked into the genre that it would be a waste of time to criticize an individual game for it). The fact that the main character in Dark Souls was undead and the bonfires were made out of undead bones? I loved that.

[Darth Mario]

Undertale is mainly repulsive to me because of attempting to glorify the pacifist run by ruining it. As most of you know, In RPGs ever since the beginning, you never had to kill anyone, and even in D&D, you could get bonuses for pacifism. When video games really hit the mainstream, most if not all games focused around conflict, and the easiest thing to do was to resolve it with violence. Killing your enemy made the game easier, so the most hardcore decided to try to get through the game without killing. While this was very difficult, it was and is done, even in most RPGs. Undertale ruined that by not only expecting you to do it, but making it easier. Imagine if not only a PHd was expected of you to get in college, but easier than a bachelor's degree, it would ruin becoming a PHd. Yes, you can kill, but doing so will open up fights with harder bosses and enemies, and it will also cause the game to be mean to you for doing so.

A couple points.

1. You seem to think that killing enemies, even every single enemy you encounter in a normal playthrough, puts you on the Genocide route. If you're playing the game blind and making the decision to kill everything, you're most likely still on the normal route, actually. Genocide requires the decision to go out of your way to grind everything in every zone, and boots you off if you miss even one enemy at any point. It essentially must be a deliberate decision to be an ass, and as such, punishes you for it with added difficulty. (Did I say punish? I meant "gives you access to the two best boss fights in the game").

2. The pacifist run IS more difficult than the standard run in most cases. Running with a low health total means that certain main/pacifist bosses can become quite difficult (Undyne and Mettaton in particular come to mind).

[Togath]

But in the dark souls example, you can enjoy it regardless of if you're into that kind of thing, or the specific method the game delivers it in.
Another example of one of the issues with undertale is how arbitrary the "good" ending it. Since it's made purposefully obtuse to obtain, unless you play through several times or look it up, and have knowledge you shouldn't have, which would break immersion in any game, let alone one that relies on doing this.
The fact that game was flooded media certainly doesn't help it, let alone the questionable art, poor animation, and bad music, or the fact that so many people feverishly leap to defend and promote it at any chance(as this thread itself shows).

[Darth Mario]

bad music,

You take that back. *fetches pitchforks*

[Forum Explorer]

But in the dark souls example, you can enjoy it regardless of if you're into that kind of thing, or the specific method the game delivers it in.
Another example of one of the issues with undertale is how arbitrary the "good" ending it. Since it's made purposefully obtuse to obtain, unless you play through several times or look it up, and have knowledge you shouldn't have, which would break immersion in any game, let alone one that relies on doing this.
The fact that game was flooded media certainly doesn't help it, let alone the questionable art, poor animation, and bad music, or the fact that so many people feverishly leap to defend and promote it at any chance(as this thread itself shows).

The game is designed to be played multiple times. In fact, you can't get the True Pacifist ending on your first playthrough, the condition needed to trigger simply doesn't occur.

If you aren't looking at walkthroughs or the like, then the game will drop really obvious hints on how to achieve it, even basically telling you how eventually.

Basically the immersion of the game itself depends on you the player realizing that you personally are a part of the story. Frisk/Chara is a separate character, instead of one that you play as, one that you only really meet when you do multiple runs.

If you don't like that, fair enough. But it's not a mistake, it's deliberate.

[Anarion]

But in the dark souls example, you can enjoy it regardless of if you're into that kind of thing, or the specific method the game delivers it in.
Another example of one of the issues with undertale is how arbitrary the "good" ending it. Since it's made purposefully obtuse to obtain, unless you play through several times or look it up, and have knowledge you shouldn't have, which would break immersion in any game, let alone one that relies on doing this.
The fact that game was flooded media certainly doesn't help it, let alone the questionable art, poor animation, and bad music, or the fact that so many people feverishly leap to defend and promote it at any chance(as this thread itself shows).

The good ending isn't arbitrary. The game requires you to complete the neutral path at least once and then hints or tells you what you should do after the ending if you want to do better. Which is a classic technique in tons of games with secret unlockables or better alternate endings.

[Togath]

You take that back. *fetches pitchforks*

Admittedly, I'm basing this specifically on a piece called "bonetrussle" which is the only bit I've been exposed to, and sounded like an out of tune violin being used to play music that was then relatively poorly recorded.

[Darth Mario]

Admittedly, I'm basing this specifically on a piece called "bonetrussle" which is the only bit I've been exposed to, and sounded like an out of tune violin being used to play music that was then relatively poorly recorded.

I agree Bonetroussle is overrated. You might want to check out Megalovania (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcoqR9Bwx1Y) or Spider Dance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ3XjVVNagU) (personally my two favorites from the game). Though your complaints seem to be related the lo-fi aesthetic of the game, so these may or may not be to your liking either.

[Razade]

let alone the questionable art

Yeah, the main character looks like a potato.


poor animation

Ehhh...animation is what it is. It's no worse than an SNES game and it's not like he had a huge budget. I'm with you so far but you missed "Reptitive and unimaginative gameplay" but I'm sure you'll get to that.


and bad music.

Wait. Hold up now. I hate Undertale. It's a pretensions, boring, painfully aware little game but this just isn't the case. But if anything Toby knows how to make it's music. How can you listen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WDFUcjWARU) to this and not enjoy it unless you just hate classic SNES era music which if you do...your opinion is invalid here.

[Lord Raziere]

I agree Bonetroussle is overrated. You might want to check out Megalovania (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcoqR9Bwx1Y) or Spider Dance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ3XjVVNagU) (personally my two favorites from the game). Though your complaints seem to be related the lo-fi aesthetic of the game, so these may or may not be to your liking either.

I'd recommend ASGORE or The Core myself.....there's also one I'd recommend, but for spoilers.....but then again....Megalovania is on your recs, so I'll just go ahead say it: SAVE the World.

there is also the music that plays in Waterfall, that one is good to

but if want something slow and sad, there is always Its Raining Somewhere Else. just beautiful and sums up the character is made for so well, if you know their story.

[Hiro Protagonest]

But in the dark souls example, you can enjoy it regardless of if you're into that kind of thing, or the specific method the game delivers it in.
I've seen people say that if they die in a game, that's when they put it down for the session. That a game shouldn't expect you to die at all.

Another example of one of the issues with undertale is how arbitrary the "good" ending it.

While I will say it's a very specific path, it's also a path that the entire game encourages you towards. It's not exactly Cave Story, the smoothest indie game there is (until you try to get Cave Story's good ending), but Toby does an alright job at that. With one exception: Undyne's fight. I could've written dialogue that better hinted at the solution than Toby did, and environmental cues that Hotland is right around the corner... don't exist.

[Lord Raziere]

With one exception: Undyne's fight. I could've written dialogue that better hinted at the solution than Toby did, and environmental cues that Hotland is right around the corner... don't exist.

and even if you DO know it, its still something thats hard to do, if your on the Pacifist run. It was actually easier for me to spare her on a Neutral run because I had enough health to survive the attacks. no one will blame you if you have to look it up, and no one will blame you if ya don't get through her on the first try.
but yeah, the dialogue could really have been done better to hint at it:

Undyne: Human! Hotland is right beyond this gate. Although personally I hate that place with its stupid heat, I am one of the royal guard, a DEFENDER, of all monster kid! I will not let you into Hotland no matter how much you try to run towards it! I will pursue you until I can run no more! For I have Determination, and I will not give up the chase easily!

just, that would be enough, y'know?

[8BitNinja]

Okay, I didn't know people would respond to this so fast, so here is some things I saw to make me see why this is the best game in the world

"Pacifism is one of the themes"- Well Socialism is a theme in many works and I don't like socialism

"Pacifism is supposed to be easy"- When was being the good guy supposed to be easy? Same with pacifism

(Not Really One) "That's a strange reason to dislike something"- I have more reasons, and I'll post about those

[BRC]

"Pacifism is supposed to be easy"- When was being the good guy supposed to be easy? Same with pacifism


Why must Pacifism be the "Difficult" option? Regardless of the debate on whether or not the pacifist route is easy (It is if you look things up online, it can be pretty hard if you have to figure out all the boss fight puzzles yourself), why are you so outraged at the idea of a game in which the Pacifist choice is the easiest/most encouraged option?

In other games, yes, a Pacifist run is a challenge requiring considerable mastery over the core game mechanics (For example, to do a Pacifist run of Dishonored, you need to be very good at the core stealth gameplay). Undertale is not those games, and shouldn't be judged according to their standards.

Not saying you need to love Undertale, I'm just wondering where this rule that a Pacifist route must always represent a Challenge came from?

[Hiro Protagonest]

"Pacifism is supposed to be easy"- When was being the good guy supposed to be easy? Same with pacifism

Pacifism is supposed to be easy in Undertale, because it is the point of Undertale. The game's tagline is "you don't have to kill anyone." The main goal should be easy for players to comprehend what they're supposed to do, that is THE rule of game design. In Daisuke Amaya's GDC talk (The Story Of Cave), he talks about how he designed everything in Cave Story to guide the player along. Just like you don't have to actively seek out the WP Mortar in Spec Ops: The Line, you shouldn't have to seek out the pacifist solutions in Undertale. Shovel Knight is a difficult platformer, but aside from a couple minor rough patches with introducing new challenges, it makes sure the player understands what it wants them to do, and the difficulty is all in pulling off the right combination of run, jump, attack.

[Darth Mario]

Okay, I didn't know people would respond to this so fast, so here is some things I saw to make me see why this is the best game in the world

No one is arguing even close to that. Just an interesting game worthy of attention and analysis that some of us have enjoyed.


"Pacifism is supposed to be easy"- When was being the good guy supposed to be easy? Same with pacifism

As mentioned previously, the pacifist run is NOT the easy "difficulty level," the "neutral" run is. It is significantly easier to kill in self defense in some of the fights (for some players, at least), it's faster, and you get tougher for it. And if you're asking why Pacifist is easier than Genocide... Yeah, being a good person who doesn't want to kill people is usually easier on your life than being an outright murderous bastard. I would think that's a pretty easy concept to grasp.


(Not Really One) "That's a strange reason to dislike something"- I have more reasons, and I'll post about those

"This isn't what I want out of an RPG" is a perfectly sound reason to dislike an RPG. It seems what you wanted and didn't get out of Undertale was EITHER for an optional, much greater challenge (if so, check out the Genocide run, those two will wreck you so good) or not having to deal with the concept of pacifism at all because the option to do so is so far removed from the core game.


"Pacifism is one of the themes"

So... you don't like pacifism, is what I'm gathering. Fine, sure. At least you can't say Undertale was dishonest in its marketing, and it still doesn't force you to be a pacifist, just encourages it.

[Starwulf]

You know, I've never really understood the 'over-saturation' argument. Is it really so hard to avoid something that is popular that you personally don't like (or don't care about)?


I'll agree with this. I don't even know what Undertale is. I've never even seen any screenshots of the game. LOL. The only reason I clicked on this thread was because of the extreme "I Hate Undertale" title, and in the past all I've seen are "I love Undertale" titles, so seeing such a startling contrast made me curious. I have literally zero clue what the game is about, or why it's so popular, so yeah, Over-saturation is not really a thing, it's quite possible to remain unaware of popular things. Hell, my best friend refuses to listen to "pop" music so much, that if I say "Hey bro, have you heard of X artist" he's like "Uhh, no, who is that", even if I'm talking about Taylor Swift or Nickelback or Jason Derulo.

[Draconi Redfir]

You know, I've never really understood the 'over-saturation' argument. Is it really so hard to avoid something that is popular that you personally don't like (or don't care about)?

I've never had that problem, barring songs on the radio at work (when I can't drop what I'm doing to change the channel)

But for everything else, I've found it really trivial to avoid, just by glancing over, ignoring, and/or pressing next/clicking the next link depending on what exactly I'm doing.

So what is the behavior that is bringing you into contact with your hated material so frequently? I know my internet behaviors are not necessarily the norm, so I'm genuinely curious what it is that is causing this difference.

(Yes, this post is barely Undertale related, but it seems as good as time as any to ask this question).

well like i said, blogs, youtube, and freinds mainly.

i follow blogs and youtube channels for various things. Minecraft, Homestuck, xcom, banter, etc. there was a good mix of things that i was genuinely interested in, which is why i followed them to begin with. then undertale comes out and almost overnight their content switches over from "Here's this cool homestuck OC i made" "Here's what i'm doing on my minecraft world" etc to "UNDERTALE ART UNDERTALE TALK UNDERTALE THEORY UNDERTALE UNDERTALEUNDERTALEUNDERTALE!" As it is over half my blacklist on tumblr is undertale related and understale stuff STILL gets through it because people keep churning out so much of the stuff and not bothering to tag it.

with my freinds it's kinda simmilar. a mix of "oh hey, how is that thing you were working on in minecraft?" "oh i didn't do it, i was busy playing undertale, i had X Y and Z happen to A and B and..." and "You should really play undertale, it's really fun" every other day or so, despite multiple assurances that i just. don't. care.

Glazing over and ignoring things is all fine and good, but it's still annoying when you need to wade through swaths of the stuff just to get what you actually signed up for.

[Hiro Protagonest]

almost overnight their content switches over from "Here's this cool homestuck OC i made" to "UNDERTALE ART UNDERTALE TALK UNDERTALE THEORY UNDERTALE UNDERTALEUNDERTALEUNDERTALE!"

I don't see the problem.

[Draconi Redfir]

I don't see the problem.

That's because you're an undertale fan.


imagine a new game came out. it's called. "Bunny killers 3D" And you... don't really care for it. Maybe you don't like the premise, maybe it's the graphics, maybe you're just not interested.

now imagine that everyone and their mother does little else but talk about Bunny Killers 3D day in and day out. At the shopping center, online, at family dinners, any time you try to change the topic to something else, someone finds a way to turn it into a conversation about Bunny Killers 3D.

Trust me. you would get tired and annoyed about it too.

[Anarion]

That's because you're an undertale fan.


imagine a new game came out. it's called. "Bunny killers 3D" And you... don't really care for it. Maybe you don't like the premise, maybe it's the graphics, maybe you're just not interested.

now imagine that everyone and their mother does little else but talk about Bunny Killers 3D day in and day out. At the shopping center, online, at family dinners, any time you try to change the topic to something else, someone finds a way to turn it into a conversation about Bunny Killers 3D.

Trust me. you would get tired and annoyed about it too.

So...all of your friends and people that you liked and enjoyed their content start talking about something and your response to that is to dismiss it without trying it? :smallconfused:

[Cute_Riolu]

That's because you're an undertale fan.


imagine a new game came out. it's called. "Bunny killers 3D" And you... don't really care for it. Maybe you don't like the premise, maybe it's the graphics, maybe you're just not interested.

now imagine that everyone and their mother does little else but talk about Bunny Killers 3D day in and day out. At the shopping center, online, at family dinners, any time you try to change the topic to something else, someone finds a way to turn it into a conversation about Bunny Killers 3D.

Trust me. you would get tired and annoyed about it too.

I'm not sure that that's a valid argument, to be honest. Hiro, unless I'm mistaken, was saying that it is their prerogative what's on their blog, or what they draw, or whatnot. I don't care for Steven Universe or Adventure Time particularly, but a lot of blogs I follow often reblog or draw that stuff; I don't find that to be a reason to hate them. If people enjoy something, good! If they're pushy with it toward me, I let them know that I'm not interested, and if they remain pushy I cut back on how much time I spend with them, or I make an effort to involve myself in what they're being pushy about. It seems a little illogical to render ill judgement upon something BECAUSE of people being pushy. Being a little inclined against playing it is something I can understand, but I've always found things flowed more smoothly if I just gave in, if people whom I care about care THAT much for something.

[Draconi Redfir]

i never said people weren't allowed to post about their own interests and what not, I’m just saying that personally, as an individual, in my own personal individual opinion, i am getting tired of it. i take every precaution i can think of to avoid the dang thing but it keeps getting through anyways, and to answer your question Anarion, yes. Because as i said before, i legitimately do. not. care. i give less then zero ships about undertale and unless someone else goes through the effort of buying it, giving it to me, and forcing me to play it, there is no chance in hell i'm ever going to do so, because i legitimately do not care. So when it's the only thing people are ever talking about these days, it can get understandably annoying.

[Razade]

So...all of your friends and people that you liked and enjoyed their content start talking about something and your response to that is to dismiss it without trying it? :smallconfused:

There's nothing with someone saying "I'm not interested in this." without trying it.

[Anarion]

i never said people weren't allowed to post about their own interests and what not, I’m just saying that personally, as an individual, in my own personal individual opinion, i am getting tired of it. i take every precaution i can think of to avoid the dang thing but it keeps getting through anyways, and to answer your question Anarion, yes. Because as i said before, i legitimately do. not. care. i give less then zero ships about undertale and unless someone else goes through the effort of buying it, giving it to me, and forcing me to play it, there is no chance in hell i'm ever going to do so, because i legitimately do not care. So when it's the only thing people are ever talking about these days, it can get understandably annoying.

But why don't you care? I'm trying to understand the mental process here. Some day a few months ago, you had no idea Undertale existed, and of course didn't care about it because you didn't know about it. You then found out about it. And apparently found out about it a lot through multiple sources that you've described as people you're friends with or that you like to follow. And somewhere in that period, you decided that all of those people who had previously been friends or done things you really liked were totally wrong and indeed annoying for suggesting that you try this game. Did you at least look into it? Try the demo maybe? I just don't understand how you reached the decision that you should ignore what all your friends are telling you and instead decide that they're all annoying for talking about it.

Edit:

There's nothing with someone saying "I'm not interested in this." without trying it.

No, there isn't, but there is something unusual about ignoring a lot of people you trust without a reason.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I got into a state of anti-hype for Undertale too. When people (on this forum) were like "YOU HAVE TO PLAY THIS GAME YOURSELF NO SPOILERS" I went "fine" and looked up the plot on Wikipedia (then I quickly decided against reading it all and just watched a Let's Play). Then I watched a Let's Play (specifically Cry's, he's some sort of savant with that game). Then more Let's Plays. And half of them, I actually sought out, only a couple of the many YouTubers I'm subscribed to actually did Undertale content. Maybe it's more popular among the Homestuck and Minecraft crowds (a very distinct possibility).

[Starwulf]

No, there isn't, but there is something unusual about ignoring a lot of people you trust without a reason.

Why? I don't play a lot of games my friends recommend, because with the exception of two, the majority of the people I converse with on a regular basis are all about Call of Duty, or Battlefield, or whatever shooter is the current flavor of the day/week/month/year. I hate shooters, with a passion, and no matter how many times my friends tell me "This game is totally flipping freaking awesomesaucemazing", I'm still not going to play it, or even want to watch them play it. There is nothing unusual in ignoring things you genuinely dislike, even if your loved ones rave about it.

With that being said, I realize you say "Without a reason". Well, put that way, if my friends start recommending me a game, even if it isn't a shooter, I'm not going to try it, because no matter how much they rave about it, I know that my tastes are far enough apart from theirs, that I know I won't like it. It could be an RPG, which is my favorite genre, I still wouldn't try it, solely based on the idea that their tastes differ so far from mine that I'm positive I wouldn't like it.

That may sound harsh, and I'm sure some people reading my response are going "Man, what a d-bag". Well, I'm not, honestly, I love my friends, and I enjoy hanging out with them, I just don't trust them a single bit to point me towards games I'll enjoy. I'll either go to my two friends who are much closer to me in terms of games they enjoy, or I'll just read internet reviews on games I think look interesting.

[Anarion]

Why? I don't play a lot of games my friends recommend, because with the exception of two, the majority of the people I converse with on a regular basis are all about Call of Duty, or Battlefield, or whatever shooter is the current flavor of the day/week/month/year. I hate shooters, with a passion, and no matter how many times my friends tell me "This game is totally flipping freaking awesomesaucemazing", I'm still not going to play it, or even want to watch them play it. There is nothing unusual in ignoring things you genuinely dislike, even if your loved ones rave about it.

With that being said, I realize you say "Without a reason". Well, put that way, if my friends start recommending me a game, even if it isn't a shooter, I'm not going to try it, because no matter how much they rave about it, I know that my tastes are far enough apart from theirs, that I know I won't like it. It could be an RPG, which is my favorite genre, I still wouldn't try it, solely based on the idea that their tastes differ so far from mine that I'm positive I wouldn't like it.

That's still a reason. :smallwink: If Draconi's response is similar in that he also doesn't trust his friends' taste, then that would make sense.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I want to start by saying I'm not commenting on this thread to argue. I just want to say my piece and leave.

That done, your post intrigued me because you're the first person I've ever met who genuinely didn't like Undertale. I will agree that the game's not perfect, the rave reviews critics give it could be toned down a little, and the odd and frankly gross shipping fandom disgusts me just as much as it does you.Congratulations, you've now met two.


Admittedly, the base lure of the game is "you don't have to kill any enemies, and usually it's very simple not to". But Undertale uses that device as a springboard to launch into one of its main themes; specifically, moral agency as a protagonist and as a player. There are consequences for your actions, good and bad. The story changes every time you choose whether to spare or kill an enemy, be it a mook or a boss. And the question that Undertale asks you is "if you could spare an enemy even though you have the option of killing them, shouldn't you?" Because the monsters in Undertale aren't, well, monsters. They're people even if they aren't human, and they have lives and personalities and families, which isn't something you can say for the average character in any other video game where a "pacifist run" is an option, built-in or otherwise. The game forces you to take a long, hard look at your choices as a player and as a person, and asks you if being evil in a game reflects on how you act in real-life.

Maybe it doesn't. I don't know you as a person, and I can understand your gripes about the game. But at the same time these gripes are ignoring the fundamental themes of the game, and I'm not going to just sit here and read them without saying my piece in return. I hope you understand my viewpoint.

And that bolded line right there is why I absolutely despise the game. Trying to tell me that I am a bad *person* because of how I play a video game? Very uncool. Which is PRECISELY what the game does. Flowey isn't the only fourth-wall breaking character, and not even the most obnoxious, although he is a psycopathic little git and easy to hate. Of all the characters, he's the biggest caricature.

When the game berates the player, not the character but the guy behind the controls, for a choice made in a video game, as though there is absolutely no difference between a game and real life... you cross a line. If you can't tell the difference between a game and reality, you really shouldn't be playing video games in the first place. And the way it is presented within this game makes me wonder if the developers have trouble with this distinction.

My gripe is WITH the fundamental theme of the game. I feel that it is reprehensible and loathful at best, and a blatant 'politically friendly' pg-rated stab at 'video game violence' BS.

Don't like video games? Fine. Offer me an option for violence in a game, then berate me, the player, for taking that option? Not fine.

[Starwulf]

That's still a reason. :smallwink: If Draconi's response is similar in that he also doesn't trust his friends' taste, then that would make sense.

Put that way, I imagine there isn't any scenario where a person would ignore friends recommendations without a reason, I'm not sure that would be possible given how quickly a persons brain breaks down information and processes it. If a friend says "Hey, you should check out X because of Y and Z", pretty much anyone without a major mental defect is going to go "Hmm, I like/dislike Y and Z, so X will be good/bad, and coming from this person that I've known for a while whose interests do/don't match up with mine, I'm absolutely not/am going to go check out X".

In other words, it sounds more like you kind of knee-jerked at his post with your response of "Why would you ignore someone's that you care about without a reason", because everyone is always going to have a reason for doing something if you break it down to it's finest levels.

[Hiro Protagonest]

When the game berates the player, not the character but the guy behind the controls, for a choice made in a video game, as though there is absolutely no difference between a game and real life... you cross a line. If you can't tell the difference between a game and reality, you really shouldn't be playing video games in the first place. And the way it is presented within this game makes me wonder if the developers have trouble with this distinction.

My gripe is WITH the fundamental theme of the game. I feel that it is reprehensible and loathful at best, and a blatant 'politically friendly' pg-rated stab at 'video game violence' BS.

Don't like video games? Fine. Offer me an option for violence in a game, then berate me, the player, for taking that option? Not fine.

So you hate this game for exploring what a video game can be? For deciding to try something that the medium is perfectly capable of, but hasn't really been done yet? Of course Undertale won't be to everyone's taste, but calling it anti-games for wanting to see what else a video game can be is just... I can't even understand where you're coming from.

[Anarion]

And that bolded line right there is why I absolutely despise the game. Trying to tell me that I am a bad *person* because of how I play a video game? Very uncool. Which is PRECISELY what the game does. Flowey isn't the only fourth-wall breaking character, and not even the most obnoxious, although he is a psycopathic little git and easy to hate. Of all the characters, he's the biggest caricature.

When the game berates the player, not the character but the guy behind the controls, for a choice made in a video game, as though there is absolutely no difference between a game and real life... you cross a line. If you can't tell the difference between a game and reality, you really shouldn't be playing video games in the first place. And the way it is presented within this game makes me wonder if the developers have trouble with this distinction.

My gripe is WITH the fundamental theme of the game. I feel that it is reprehensible and loathful at best, and a blatant 'politically friendly' pg-rated stab at 'video game violence' BS.

Don't like video games? Fine. Offer me an option for violence in a game, then berate me, the player, for taking that option? Not fine.

The game doesn't distinguish the player and the character. It's playing around with the storytelling that way. Flowie requires that the program be turned off and restarted, it saves changes across files, even across full resets unless you know where it's actually storing system files and delete them. It tracks your ability to save and reload and comments upon it, and it even attacks the "player" in the genocide run where it implies that the ending is damaging the program itself by coming at you directly.

You can still not like that, I just want to point that out.



In other words, it sounds more like you kind of knee-jerked at his post with your response of "Why would you ignore someone's that you care about without a reason", because everyone is always going to have a reason for doing something if you break it down to it's finest levels.

I just want to know the reason. I don't see the statement "I don't care" as a reason. It's a result, and I'd like to know how he got to that result somewhere between "never heard of it" and "I don't care about it, why won't my friends leave me alone?"

[8BitNinja]

I leave thee computer for dinner and family and then I get back on and the thread has too many posts to read

Another one of the problems I have is that people treat it as if it was so original when it isn't. Nothing the game does is new unless you count the guilt trip it gives you. People compare it to EarthBound because of the tone, feel, and art, but EarthBound has something it doesn't. EarthBound was a game that did something that no other game in that genre did before, all RPGs were grimdark and EarthBound changed that. Undertale borrows elements that are in plenty of RPGs such as BioWare's Paragon/Renegade system, EarthBound's art and tone, old Final Fantasy battle systems, and obligatory "puzzles" designed for 5-year-olds from every RPG ever. The game is trying to come off as original, but it isn't. The idea of the enemy having feelings isn't new either, this idea was explored in many games

So yeah

[Hiro Protagonest]

Nothing the game does is new unless you count the guilt trip it gives you.

...So as an indie game, it didn't do anything new, except what it aimed to do in the first place?

There's already arguing over whether it's good or bad, but it was the goal for making the game. And it was new. And it did it.

Not having new stuff can be fine. I love Cave Story. It didn't really add anything new, though it did present plenty of it differently. Super Metroid used an eight-direction aim system, Cave Story cut it down to an easier four-direction system. Cave Story had the "weapon experience" mechanic, but it's based on the mushrooms and other "until you get hit" upgrades of Mario games. It also has a really sad story for a platformer. Does Undertale have the same level of detail and time paid to the fights and levels as Cave Story? No. But Cave Story also innovated less than Undertale did. (Shovel Knight is another good example of a game, also a 2D platformer, which didn't really do anything new but did it really well. Though I've seen one guy on the internet try to argue that Shovel Knight's popularity is making game design regress)

[NEO|Phyte]

Maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention, but I don't particularly recall any particular jabs at the player. I guess I hear Flowey has some words for you if you do a reset after killing Toriel, but he's basically a meta character anyway. He also takes a jab at people watching someone else do a genocide run rather than playing through it themselves. Of course I'm terrible at recalling fine details, and I'm not sure if there's a clear line on where people berating the character for being a bad person also counts as berating the player. Though it doesn't go for straight up berating that I recall, just things like papyrus offering friendship instead of his usual I WILL CAPTURE A HUMAN AND EVERYONE WILL LIKE ME routine.

I will say that it's a nice touch that unlike such deep and thought provoking pieces as spec ops the line, where the 'correct' move is to literally stop playing the game, undertale actually follows up on the 'hey maybe you shouldn't kill everyone' by letting you cancel a genocide run at any point up until you kill the second to last boss.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I will say that it's a nice touch that unlike such deep and thought provoking pieces as spec ops the line, where the 'correct' move is to literally stop playing the game, undertale actually follows up on the 'hey maybe you shouldn't kill everyone' by letting you cancel a genocide run at any point up until you kill the second to last boss.

Yeah, and this is why I will never consider Undertale to be bad. Because Spec Ops: The Line exists, and people somehow like it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So you hate this game for exploring what a video game can be? For deciding to try something that the medium is perfectly capable of, but hasn't really been done yet? Of course Undertale won't be to everyone's taste, but calling it anti-games for wanting to see what else a video game can be is just... I can't even understand where you're coming from.

You have no problem with you, the player, being called bad because you made a choice in a video game where that choice is a valid one to make?

Umm... okay. You have fun with that. Personally, I have a problem with the developers making judgment calls on my ethics and morality based on a decision I made that they coded into their game. At the least, it is hypocrisy, and completely asinine.

[Lord Raziere]

I will say that it's a nice touch that unlike such deep and thought provoking pieces as spec ops the line, where the 'correct' move is to literally stop playing the game, undertale actually follows up on the 'hey maybe you shouldn't kill everyone' by letting you cancel a genocide run at any point up until you kill the second to last boss.

yeah, its better than any other deconstruction of videogames, because it actually gives you a non-violent option that works and makes a happy ending where being a pacifist is rewarded differently than if you just play the game like a normal RPG. and honestly, more games like Undertale would really help with getting the "videogames are ultra-violent" stereotype off of the industry. you only get out what you put into Undertale, and thus you only get the Genocide route and all the heavy-duty kill-shaming if you seek it out by killing people. in Neutral runs, the only shame you get from killing people is from when you hear the ending afterwards: it changes depends on your actions and just because you didn't like this or that character doesn't mean the world of Undertale is static or won't have problems afterwards with what you did.

that and I think the real themes of Undertale is embodied in certain questions:
"do you believe that anyone can be a good person, if they really tried?"
"do you think we are supposed to use power responsibly?"
"do you think you are above the consequences?"
"when do you fight? when do you show mercy?"
"when is it time to quit?"

things like that. mostly because no one who actually fights you in the Genocide run is portrayed as villainous for fighting against you but actually heroic, and even when Asgore or Flowey destroys the Mercy option during their fights, you still have the option of sparing them at the end of their fights, without any penalty for being forced to fight them. I wouldn't say Undertale is entirely pacifistic, only thats its presenting a situation where most of the foes you fight won't give you any safe moral excuses for engaging in standard murderhobo behavior.

[Darth Mario]

You have no problem with you, the player, being called bad because you made a choice in a video game where that choice is a valid one to make?

Umm... okay. You have fun with that. Personally, I have a problem with the developers making judgment calls on my ethics and morality based on a decision I made that they coded into their game. At the least, it is hypocrisy, and completely asinine.

The DEVELOPER is not making any such judgement call. A character in the game who lives in the world you are literally destroying is judging you. Characters in RPGs do this all the time.

[Manticoran]

You have no problem with you, the player, being called bad because you made a choice in a video game where that choice is a valid one to make?

Umm... okay. You have fun with that. Personally, I have a problem with the developers making judgment calls on my ethics and morality based on a decision I made that they coded into their game. At the least, it is hypocrisy, and completely asinine.

...Have you ever played any modern RPG? Or not modern RPG? Like a Star Wars one, where you get to go Dark Side and kill everyone and take their stuff, which I'm pretty sure is a bad thing.

I'm trying to think of a good RPG where it doesn't let you be an awful person at least some of the time, and I can't think of any offhand.

[Forum Explorer]

well like i said, blogs, youtube, and freinds mainly.

i follow blogs and youtube channels for various things. Minecraft, Homestuck, xcom, banter, etc. there was a good mix of things that i was genuinely interested in, which is why i followed them to begin with. then undertale comes out and almost overnight their content switches over from "Here's this cool homestuck OC i made" "Here's what i'm doing on my minecraft world" etc to "UNDERTALE ART UNDERTALE TALK UNDERTALE THEORY UNDERTALE UNDERTALEUNDERTALEUNDERTALE!" As it is over half my blacklist on tumblr is undertale related and understale stuff STILL gets through it because people keep churning out so much of the stuff and not bothering to tag it.

with my freinds it's kinda simmilar. a mix of "oh hey, how is that thing you were working on in minecraft?" "oh i didn't do it, i was busy playing undertale, i had X Y and Z happen to A and B and..." and "You should really play undertale, it's really fun" every other day or so, despite multiple assurances that i just. don't. care.

Glazing over and ignoring things is all fine and good, but it's still annoying when you need to wade through swaths of the stuff just to get what you actually signed up for.

That could be it. I don't follow anyone on the internet beyond Yahtzee, and him only tangentially.

Or in other words, I haven't signed up for anything, so there's nothing to wade through.

As for friends, well that's how I found the game. They sold it to me under the umbrella of 'it's your kind of humor, give it a try.' So I did, and I loved it.


You have no problem with you, the player, being called bad because you made a choice in a video game where that choice is a valid one to make?

Umm... okay. You have fun with that. Personally, I have a problem with the developers making judgment calls on my ethics and morality based on a decision I made that they coded into their game. At the least, it is hypocrisy, and completely asinine.

Not a problem. Mostly because it's not the developers or some 'greater power' in the game telling me I'm a ****. It's the characters in the story, after I did something to piss them off or otherwise hurt them. I couldn't do the equivalent of nuking Megaton and then have everyone be fine with it cause I gave to the poor. I killed their friends and comrades, and the characters held a grudge because that's a realistic thing to do if you kill someone's friends and comrades.

So yeah, for me it just increased the realism of the game. It made the characters feel more real because they reacted in a believable manner to my actions and didn't cater to my 'player' status.

[Draconi Redfir]

But why don't you care? I'm trying to understand the mental process here.



i do not care because i do not care. full stop, end of story. in my mind, it is a simple situation of "This game does not interest me. at all. ever" i have zero interest in playing it, and zero interesting in hearing about it, the graphics do not appeal to me, the story does not appeal to me, i'm sure it's very nice and quite good don't get me wrong, but there is nothing, and i mean absolutely nothing about this game that entertains me or intrigues me about it in any way shape or form. i don't have any interest in listening to anything anyone else in terms of "play it it is good" because i plain and simple, do. not. care.



the fact that it is taking so long for you to understand this very simple concept honestly baffles me.

[Darth Mario]

I'm trying to think of a good RPG where it doesn't let you be an awful person at least some of the time, and I can't think of any offhand.

Isn't the issue here not that he CAN be despicable but rather that he doesn't want CONSEQUENCES for being despicable? Or am I just reading this all wrong?

[Manticoran]

the fact that it is taking so long for you to understand this very simple concept honestly baffles me.

The fact that you are continuing to talk about this thing that you don't care about honestly baffles me.

EDIT:

Isn't the issue here not that he CAN be despicable but rather that he doesn't want CONSEQUENCES for being despicable? Or am I just reading this all wrong?

Yes, that. Because remember, lack of consequences for your actions is what makes a world more believable and intimate, and what the gaming industry has been working towards for YEARS in amazing examples, such as Mass Effect 3(Er... Wait... No, let's not use that example...).

[Draconi Redfir]

i continue to talk about this thing i don't care about because that's what this thread was kind of made for?:smallconfused:

This thread exists so people and express their distaste for this game to one annother and discuss it between themselves. and here we have it filled with pro-understale fans trying to convince us otherwise, which is about as uncalled for as anti-understale fans coming into the i-love-understale thread and telling everyone they are dumb for liking it.

[druid91]

You know, I've never really understood the 'over-saturation' argument. Is it really so hard to avoid something that is popular that you personally don't like (or don't care about)?

I've never had that problem, barring songs on the radio at work (when I can't drop what I'm doing to change the channel)

But for everything else, I've found it really trivial to avoid, just by glancing over, ignoring, and/or pressing next/clicking the next link depending on what exactly I'm doing.

So what is the behavior that is bringing you into contact with your hated material so frequently? I know my internet behaviors are not necessarily the norm, so I'm genuinely curious what it is that is causing this difference.

(Yes, this post is barely Undertale related, but it seems as good as time as any to ask this question).

I at least, am in a few skype group chats with people who are obsessed with Undertale. The constant references have died down a bit. But it's still there. Kinda like the ever-present Brony thing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The DEVELOPER is not making any such judgement call. A character in the game who lives in the world you are literally destroying is judging you. Characters in RPGs do this all the time.

Unfortunately, this time, that's not what is happening. They aren't berating the character, they break fourth wall, and call out the PLAYER being a bad person in the Genocide run. Increasingly so as you progress.

That's my problem. I don't have a problem with the character. It's when the characters pull a Deadpool and specifically call out the player for being a bad person for even trying for this ending that I have a problem with.

[Domino Quartz]

i continue to talk about this thing i don't care about because that's what this thread was kind of made for?:smallconfused:

This thread exists so people and express their distaste for this game to one annother and discuss it between themselves. and here we have it filled with pro-understale fans trying to convince us otherwise, which is about as uncalled for as anti-understale fans coming into the i-love-understale thread and telling everyone they are dumb for liking it.

That's not really comparable, because nobody has told anyone in this thread that they're dumb for not liking Undertale. Not only that, but there is no "I-love-Undertale" thread, but simply an "Undertale" thread - at least a few people have expressed their dislike for the game in that thread.

[Draconi Redfir]

That's not really comparable, because nobody has told anyone in this thread that they're dumb for not liking Undertale. Not only that, but there is no "I-love-Undertale" thread, but simply an "Undertale" thread - at least a few people have expressed their dislike for the game in that thread.

last time i checked there's been a considerable ammount of "just tryyyyy it! you might liiiiike iiit!" posts for every "Yeah this game doesn't really appeal to me and i find it's over-saturation annoying" post.

it's like constantly trying to push mashed potatoes on someone who doesn't like mashed potatoes. they just don't like the dang taters please calm down.

[8BitNinja]

...So as an indie game, it didn't do anything new, except what it aimed to do in the first place?

There's already arguing over whether it's good or bad, but it was the goal for making the game. And it was new. And it did it.

Not having new stuff can be fine. I love Cave Story. It didn't really add anything new, though it did present plenty of it differently. Super Metroid used an eight-direction aim system, Cave Story cut it down to an easier four-direction system. Cave Story had the "weapon experience" mechanic, but it's based on the mushrooms and other "until you get hit" upgrades of Mario games. It also has a really sad story for a platformer. Does Undertale have the same level of detail and time paid to the fights and levels as Cave Story? No. But Cave Story also innovated less than Undertale did. (Shovel Knight is another good example of a game, also a 2D platformer, which didn't really do anything new but did it really well. Though I've seen one guy on the internet try to argue that Shovel Knight's popularity is making game design regress)

The problem is that people are treating it like.it's new and it isn't

I never said you had do dislike it, I just said I did

I love shovel knight, but it was just different for me with Undertale

[NEO|Phyte]

Unfortunately, this time, that's not what is happening. They aren't berating the character, they break fourth wall, and call out the PLAYER being a bad person in the Genocide run. Increasingly so as you progress.

That's my problem. I don't have a problem with the character. It's when the characters pull a Deadpool and specifically call out the player for being a bad person for even trying for this ending that I have a problem with.

I can't really recall details the best, but as far as I can remember Flowey is the main fourth wall breaker, and he likes it if you go full genocide, though he gets cold feet towards the end when he realizes that killing everyone includes him too.

Though I suppose getting the approval of a bad person probably counts as being called a bad person.

[woweedd]

last time i checked there's been a considerable ammount of "just tryyyyy it! you might liiiiike iiit!" posts for every "Yeah this game doesn't really appeal to me and i find it's over-saturation annoying" post.

it's like constantly trying to push mashed potatoes on someone who doesn't like mashed potatoes. they just don't like the dang taters please calm down.
Why, though? Why do you not like it? Did you just dismiss it for no reason? It's not like it's a hard game to get access to. The demo has been out for years and the full game is only 10 dollars on Steam. What impression turned you off of it?

[woweedd]

You have no problem with you, the player, being called bad because you made a choice in a video game where that choice is a valid one to make?

Umm... okay. You have fun with that. Personally, I have a problem with the developers making judgment calls on my ethics and morality based on a decision I made that they coded into their game. At the least, it is hypocrisy, and completely asinine.
Well, duh, yeah. That's pretty much the only argument it is impossible for this game to win, namely that all the characters you're killing are in fact just lines of code on a screen. That said, from the game's perspective, you're not deleting lines of code. You're making a choice to kill all the characters you've come to know and love over the game. Essentially, you're killing all your friends for no reason. The game makes all its characters as charming as they are for a reason: The game wants you to feel empathy for these people. If you can't forget you're playing a video game for long enough to empathize, that's on you, not the game. If your complaint is that the game wasn't good enough at making you feel for its characters, that's understandable but don't complain that it tried to make you feel an emotion beyond "I am playing a video game".

[8BitNinja]

My biggest problem is the fandom, and is it ever filled with the stench of the most foul cringeworthy content. Most things I find on Undertale usually range from 4chan cringe level to coming from the lowest depths of Tartarus where there are horrors that would make Lovecraft wet his pants. Fans really do ruin things for me, it's one of the things that made me stay away from anime, newer Final Fantasy, and competitive Smash Bros (not casual though). There are loads of horrible content out there, and then there are people who defend even the bad parts of the game and then tell me I am blinded by nostalgia when I say I like games it was inspired by, such as EarthBound, or even favorites of mine that are retro such as Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, Gauntlet, and Final Fantasy 1. Some treat the day the game was launched as if it was the second coming of Christ and that since I don't show a scarily obsessive devotion. To these fans, I should be killed with determination and the games I like should be burned. I am not accusing anyone on this forum of this and it is a hyperbole, but this is a huge reason

[woweedd]

My biggest problem is the fandom, and is it ever filled with the stench of the most foul cringeworthy content. Most things I find on Undertake usually range from 4chan cringe level to coming from the lowest depths of Tartarus where there are horrors that would make Lovecraft wet his pants. Fans really do ruin things for me, it's one of the things that made me stay away from anime, newer Final Fantasy, and competitive Smash Bros (not casual though). There are loads of horrible content out there, and then there are people who defend even the bad parts of the game and then tell me I am blinded by nostalgia when I say I like games it was inspired by, such as EarthBound, or even favorites of mine that are retro such as Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, Gauntlet, and Final Fantasy 1. Some treat the day the game was launched as if it was the second coming of Christ and that since I don't show a scarily obsessive devotion. To the game, I should be killed with determination and the games I like should be burned. I am not accusing anyone on this forum of this and it is a hyperbole, but this is a huge reason
(Emphasis mine.)
If you can't separate a game from its fandom, once again, that's not really on the game, it's on you. Also, when does the game say the Bolded statement? The game is pretty Anti-violence towards...anyone. Again, try and separate the game and its fans.

[Lord Raziere]

last time i checked there's been a considerable ammount of "just tryyyyy it! you might liiiiike iiit!" posts for every "Yeah this game doesn't really appeal to me and i find it's over-saturation annoying" post.

it's like constantly trying to push mashed potatoes on someone who doesn't like mashed potatoes. they just don't like the dang taters please calm down.

well if you insist on not trying it, go ahead and don't. your choice. its your thing to miss out on. but your on the internet, you expected anything other than people leaping to its defense? :smallwink:

whatever, its not as if the game expects you to keep playing it forever- in fact after the Pacifist run is explicitly tells you to put it down when everyone's happy ending is achieved.

no one's angry here. I think we're just curious. to me, even I think myself a "rebel" or "free spirit"- if there is something interesting, something that is suddenly popular, I get curious, and investigate- if people are talking about it, gotta see if there is anything to it y'know, and when I observe it myself, I for myself can decided whether I like it or not. until then.....can't really judge just based off hype or popularity alone. such things often distort what its trying to communicate, and it comes out wrong or without context, and y'know the old saying: "can't judge a book by its cover".

but whatevs. :smallsmile: its your choice, and I'm not forcing anything on you. if your fine with being bothered by this for however long this continues and such, because it sounds like you are, go right on ahead, its not as if the internet is short on complaints, or strange hills to die on. *shrug*

[Forum Explorer]

I at least, am in a few skype group chats with people who are obsessed with Undertale. The constant references have died down a bit. But it's still there. Kinda like the ever-present Brony thing.

Man ponies were truly everywhere for a while there. To the point where it even caught my attention (which I am glad about since I enjoy it, but still)


i continue to talk about this thing i don't care about because that's what this thread was kind of made for?:smallconfused:

This thread exists so people and express their distaste for this game to one annother and discuss it between themselves. and here we have it filled with pro-understale fans trying to convince us otherwise, which is about as uncalled for as anti-understale fans coming into the i-love-understale thread and telling everyone they are dumb for liking it.

A public forum is a bad place to get an echo chamber. If you are expressing your opinion here, you are implicitly inviting people to challenge it.


The problem is that people are treating it like.it's new and it isn't

I never said you had do dislike it, I just said I did

I love shovel knight, but it was just different for me with Undertale

There's nothing new under the sun, and everything is somebodies first experience with something.


My biggest problem is the fandom, and is it ever filled with the stench of the most foul cringeworthy content. Most things I find on Undertale usually range from 4chan cringe level to coming from the lowest depths of Tartarus where there are horrors that would make Lovecraft wet his pants. Fans really do ruin things for me, it's one of the things that made me stay away from anime, newer Final Fantasy, and competitive Smash Bros (not casual though). There are loads of horrible content out there, and then there are people who defend even the bad parts of the game and then tell me I am blinded by nostalgia when I say I like games it was inspired by, such as EarthBound, or even favorites of mine that are retro such as Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, Gauntlet, and Final Fantasy 1. Some treat the day the game was launched as if it was the second coming of Christ and that since I don't show a scarily obsessive devotion. To these fans, I should be killed with determination and the games I like should be burned. I am not accusing anyone on this forum of this and it is a hyperbole, but this is a huge reason

Eh, if I let fans other people ruin things for me there'd be nothing left to enjoy. Any fandom of any sort of size has it's fair bit of scumbags/douches and produce it's fair bit of ****.

Basically people will be people no matter the group, and Undertale fans are no different. They are no better or worse then the majority of, I don't know, Naruto fans, or football fans.

[Draconi Redfir]

Why, though? Why do you not like it? Did you just dismiss it for no reason? It's not like it's a hard game to get access to. The demo has been out for years and the full game is only 10 dollars on Steam. What impression turned you off of it?


i do not care because i do not care. full stop, end of story. in my mind, it is a simple situation of "This game does not interest me. at all. ever" i have zero interest in playing it, and zero interesting in hearing about it, the graphics do not appeal to me, the story does not appeal to me, i'm sure it's very nice and quite good don't get me wrong, but there is nothing, and i mean absolutely nothing about this game that entertains me or intrigues me about it in any way shape or form. i don't have any interest in listening to anything anyone else in terms of "play it it is good" because i plain and simple, do. not. care.

wordshere bluh bluh

[woweedd]

wordshere bluh bluh
So no reason beyond pure and simple apathy, then? Because, as said earlier, if all these people are talking about it, i'd be at least somewhat intrigued. Do you have no curiosity at all?

[Draconi Redfir]

:smallannoyed: how many times am i going to need to repeat myself?

No. I'm not interested. at all. it does not look like an entertaining game to me. i don't want to play it. end of story!

[Togath]

And having so many people try to push it on people who aren't interested really doesn't help make it more appealing >_<
Makes it feel like people are trying to use peer pressure to get us to do something that should be something we'd want to do without people pressuring and nagging us to do. And the fact that there's so much nagging and peer pressure, gives it a rather offputting air.

[Draconi Redfir]

And having so many people try to push it on people who aren't interested really doesn't help make it more appealing >_<
Makes it feel like people are trying to use peer pressure to get us to do something that should be something we'd want to do without people pressuring and nagging us to do. And the fact that there's so much nagging and peer pressure, gives it a rather offputting air.

eeeeyup. amazing how "i just don't care" doesn't seem to be an acceptable awnser around here :/

[Forum Explorer]

eeeeyup. amazing how "i just don't care" doesn't seem to be an acceptable awnser around here :/

It's a puzzling answer because if you simply don't care then why are you posting at all? :smallconfused:


It becomes much easier to understand with a reason behind it, even if it's something like you simply don't like RPGs.

[woweedd]

It's a puzzling answer because if you simply don't care then why are you posting at all? :smallconfused:


It becomes much easier to understand with a reason behind it, even if it's something like you simply don't like RPGs.
Yes, that's why i'm asking. When asked why you don't care, "I just don't" is indeed not an acceptable answer. Also, I question the logic of insulting a game that you outright admit you have never played.

[Draconi Redfir]

Okay, okay fine. You want a reason? Here, I’ll give you a reason.

Undertale killed my little sister. Hows that?

My little sister, just three years younger then me, loved undertale, i never saw the appeal of it myself, but she played it almost daily, in and out, she'd play it over and over again. Unfortunately she made the mistake of making her first run pacifist, followed swiftly by her second, third, fourth, etc. She'd gotten to know the characters, to love them, she'd daydream about them in school, thinking about the conversations she'd have with them if given the chance, shipping them together, writing stories about them, they became like a second family to her. Hell if the game was just a little bit more advanced i wouldn't have been surprised if she started asking them questions and receiving “advice” magic 8-ball style that she'd live by.

And then /He/ happened. Some kid at school thought it was a good idea to convince her to try the genocide route. Naturally she was hesitant at first, and i could easily see that. But eventually it seems her curiosity got the better of her. So one night she locked herself up in her room, turned off the lights, and loaded up a new save.

I can still hear her screaming apologies at the screen, i can't remember how far she'd gotten, but i guess somehow every strike against her second family was like one against herself. I'd thought it harmless at first, so i left her be and went to bed. We found her dead on the ground in the kitchen the next morning, a bloody knife by her side. This was six months ago.






Orrrrrrrrr... I Just don't give two ****s about the game, and I’m here because i find it annoying that it's the only thing people seem to want to talk about today and that's why I’m here. But sure. Lets go with the first one because apparently, for some reason “I don't care” isn't good enough for you.

[Siosilvar]

People who don't care don't type up multi-paragraph rants. It's not an attack, it's curiosity. You seem more frustrated than apathetic, but I do want to note that you're never required to participate in any discussion you don't want to.

On the flipside, can we leave him alone? Seriously, y'all aren't winning any favors here.

[woweedd]

Okay, okay fine. You want a reason? Here, I’ll give you a reason.

Undertale killed my little sister. Hows that?

My little sister, just three years younger then me, loved undertale, i never saw the appeal of it myself, but she played it almost daily, in and out, she'd play it over and over again. Unfortunately she made the mistake of making her first run pacifist, followed swiftly by her second, third, fourth, etc. She'd gotten to know the characters, to love them, she'd daydream about them in school, thinking about the conversations she'd have with them if given the chance, shipping them together, writing stories about them, they became like a second family to her. Hell if the game was just a little bit more advanced i wouldn't have been surprised if she started asking them questions and receiving “advice” magic 8-ball style that she'd live by.

And then /He/ happened. Some kid at school thought it was a good idea to convince her to try the genocide route. Naturally she was hesitant at first, and i could easily see that. But eventually it seems her curiosity got the better of her. So one night she locked herself up in her room, turned off the lights, and loaded up a new save.

I can still hear her screaming apologies at the screen, i can't remember how far she'd gotten, but i guess somehow every strike against her second family was like one against herself. I'd thought it harmless at first, so i left her be and went to bed. We found her dead on the ground in the kitchen the next morning, a bloody knife by her side. This was six months ago.






Orrrrrrrrr... I Just don't give two ****s about the game, and I’m here because i find it annoying that it's the only thing people seem to want to talk about today and that's why I’m here. But sure. Lets go with the first one because apparently, for some reason “I don't care” isn't good enough for you.
Ha Ha, but seriously, I need a reason! People have reasons for not caring, that's how people work. You don't care...just because? That makes no sense! I'm not asking for backstory, i'm just asking for any reason why you shouldn't care because if you're willing to miss out on a great game out of sheer apathy, then that makes no logical sense! Why didn't you check out the demo? It's literally free and takes two clicks to purchase and, thanks to the fact it's basically using SNES graphics, it's a pretty small download. You're taking the laziest and most apathetic possible course for no reason at all.

[Forum Explorer]

People who don't care don't type up multi-paragraph rants. It's not an attack, it's curiosity. You seem more frustrated than apathetic, but I do want to note that you're never required to participate in any discussion you don't want to.

On the flipside, can we leave him alone? Seriously, y'all aren't winning any favors here.

This, but I don't care that he doesn't care :smalltongue: which is why I only replied when he asked why people were finding his response unsatisfactory.

[Draconi Redfir]

Ha Ha, but seriously, I need a reason! People have reasons for not caring, that's how people work. You don't care...just because? That makes no sense! I'm not asking for backstory, i'm just asking for any reason why you shouldn't care because if you're willing to miss out on a great game out of sheer apathy, then that makes no logical sense! Why didn't you check out the demo? It's literally free and takes two clicks to purchase and, thanks to the fact it's basically using SNES graphics, it's a pretty small download. You're taking the laziest and most apathetic possible course for no reason at all.

I GAVE YOU A REASON!


For the most part it's a simple case of me having little to no interest in the thing at all, a mere case of "Oh, undertale? Uhhh... kay. don't think i'll play this one." Followed swiftly by practically every online entertainment source i partake in suddenly becoming swarmed in the thing.


imagine a new game came out. it's called. "Bunny killers 3D" And you... don't really care for it. Maybe you don't like the premise, maybe it's the graphics, maybe you're just not interested.

now imagine that everyone and their mother does little else but talk about Bunny Killers 3D day in and day out. At the shopping center, online, at family dinners, any time you try to change the topic to something else, someone finds a way to turn it into a conversation about Bunny Killers 3D.

Trust me. you would get tired and annoyed about it too.


I.


I’m just saying that personally, as an individual, in my own personal individual opinion, i am getting tired of it.
Because as i said before, i legitimately do. not. care. i give less then zero ships about undertale and unless someone else goes through the effort of buying it, giving it to me, and forcing me to play it, there is no chance in hell i'm ever going to do so, because i legitimately do not care. So when it's the only thing people are ever talking about these days, it can get understandably annoying.

GAVE YOU.


i do not care because i do not care. full stop, end of story. in my mind, it is a simple situation of "This game does not interest me. at all. ever" i have zero interest in playing it, and zero interesting in hearing about it, the graphics do not appeal to me, the story does not appeal to me, i'm sure it's very nice and quite good don't get me wrong, but there is nothing, and i mean absolutely nothing about this game that entertains me or intrigues me about it in any way shape or form. i don't have any interest in listening to anything anyone else in terms of "play it it is good" because i plain and simple, do. not. care.


A ****ING

:smallannoyed: how many times am i going to need to repeat myself?

No. I'm not interested. at all. it does not look like an entertaining game to me. i don't want to play it. end of story!

REASON!

eeeeyup. amazing how "i just don't care" doesn't seem to be an acceptable awnser around here :/



Orrrrrrrrr... I Just don't give two ****s about the game, and I’m here because i find it annoying that it's the only thing people seem to want to talk about today and that's why I’m here. But sure. Lets go with the first one because apparently, for some reason “I don't care” isn't good enough for you.


DON'T LIKE IT!? TOUGH ****! NOW **** YOU AND YOUR DUMB GAME AND LEAVE ME ALONE!:smallfurious:

[GolemsVoice]

While the reaction is maybe a bit extreme, I can see where it comes from. I had friends who would not shut up about Game of Thrones, and when you have a whole table talking about how Tyrion Lannister is totally Littlefinger of the House of Stark because White Watchers are coming for the Winter, because Kings Landing is the Dragonballs, it begins to grate on your nerves when there seems to be no other topic around. Add to that that friends would start describing their RPG characters as "looking like X from series Y" and I almost grew to hate it.


And if they continue to push it on you despite your protest that you're busy watching/reading something else, it get's annoying. That doesn't mean that GoT or Undertale are BAD, it just means that in this particular moment, they are annoying to constantly listen about, to the detriment of other content. It's pretty subjective, but it's a thing. You have listened to their arguments and found that a given thing doesn't interest you ever, or right now.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Closed for Review.