Abusing elemental domains

[Flickerdart]

This seems like a pretty simple plan, but tell me if any part of it doesn't work.

Step 1: Be a 6th level cleric. Drink a domain draught tied to the Fire domain (for example).
Step 2: Pay a spellcaster a pittance to cast lesser planar binding and summon a (Fire) outsider. Something cool and dangerous for its HD, like a rast or haraknin canomorph.
Step 3: You need not bother with magic circles or bargaining, because you just rebuke it.
Step 4: Enjoy your sweet minion forever, acquired with naught but a pittance of gold. Repeat later to grab higher-HD elemental outsiders like djinn and efreet, which you can capture at level 10 and force to serve you forever.

[Ashtagon]

Rebuking makes it cower in fear (or awe; the effect is the same) for ten rounds. You're thinking of commanding them.

As a 6th level cleric, you could command critters of up to 3 HD. That's not so impressive.

n.b., Pathfinder changed it so elemental domains do not grant dominion over elementals.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yeah, it works. No reason why it wouldn't. Most DMs will throw books at you if you start amassing an army for free though.
It also slows down combat, so like with summoners it's kinda bad form to overdo it.


Rebuking makes it cower in fear (or awe; the effect is the same) for ten rounds. You're thinking of commanding them.

As a 6th level cleric, you could command critters of up to 3 HD. That's not so impressive.

n.b., Pathfinder changed it so elemental domains do not grant dominion over elementals.

If you're going to do that you may as well do it right. There's boosts for turning level.
Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG) +4
Rod of Authority (DotF) +4
Scepter of the Netherworld (LM) +3
Sacred Shield (BoED) +2
Sacred Armor (BoED) +2
Sacred Dastana (BoED) +2
Sacred Chahar-Ana (BoED) +2
Improved Turning feat (PHB) +1
Divine Energy Focus (GW) +2
Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (ECS) +1
Paragnostic Apostle See through the Veil (CC) +2
Icon of Ravenloft +4
Ephod of Authority (MIC) +1
Talisman of Undead Mastery (MIC) +2-4

Khyber Shard Holy Symbol (FoE, 7000gp) grants the power of the Air, Earth, Fire or Water domain
A human cleric 1 with Improved Turning and Divine Energy Focus can command 2 minions with 2 HD each with each rebuking pool he has.

With the Air, Earth, Fire and Water domains for gold that's 5x2 = 10 permanent minions, if you rebuke undead too. Or 12 if you get rebuke dragons too. You can also get plants, plants and animals, oozes, constructs, reptiles, spiders, cold creatures and a few i can't remember of the top of my head.

Sure, that's a big chunk of cash. But for what it does turning boosters are pretty cheap, and each further turning pool makes them more efficient.

[Ashtagon]

Yeah, it works. No reason why it wouldn't. Most DMs will throw books at you if you start amassing an army for free though.
It also slows down combat, so like with summoners it's kinda bad form to overdo it.



If you're going to do that you may as well do it right. There's boosts for turning level.
Phylactery of Undead Turning (DMG) +4
Rod of Authority (DotF) +4
Scepter of the Netherworld (LM) +3
Sacred Shield (BoED) +2
Sacred Armor (BoED) +2
Sacred Dastana (BoED) +2
Sacred Chahar-Ana (BoED) +2
Improved Turning feat (PHB) +1
Divine Energy Focus (GW) +2
Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (ECS) +1
Paragnostic Apostle See through the Veil (CC) +2
Icon of Ravenloft +4
Ephod of Authority (MIC) +1
Talisman of Undead Mastery (MIC) +2-4

Khyber Shard Holy Symbol (FoE, 7000gp) grants the power of the Air, Earth, Fire or Water domain
A human cleric 1 with Improved Turning and Divine Energy Focus can command 2 minions with 2 HD each with each rebuking pool he has.

With the Air, Earth, Fire and Water domains for gold that's 5x2 = 10 permanent minions, if you rebuke undead too. Or 12 if you get rebuke dragons too. You can also get plants, plants and animals, oozes, constructs, reptiles, spiders, cold creatures and a few i can't remember of the top of my head.

Sure, that's a big chunk of cash. But for what it does turning boosters are pretty cheap, and each further turning pool makes them more efficient.

Picking one item at random (okay, because it was the last on the list), the Talisman of Undead Mastery merely grants a bonus on turn (and rebuke/command/bolster/whathaveyou) checks. Comparing your target's HD to half your level is not a check as d20 considers it; only an actual roll involving a d20 is a check. Also, that item specifically works wrt *undead*, not for variant turning abilities (this second point is a minor quibble; in a magic-mart setting, it's trivial to ask for a variant item that works for an elemental type instead of undead).

There may be other items that actually raise your level for all purposes and not just checks, but that list isn't quite what we're looking for here.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Picking one item at random (okay, because it was the last on the list), the Talisman of Undead Mastery merely grants a bonus on turn (and rebuke/command/bolster/whathaveyou) checks. Comparing your target's HD to half your level is not a check as d20 considers it; only an actual roll involving a d20 is a check. Also, that item specifically works wrt *undead*, not for variant turning abilities (this second point is a minor quibble; in a magic-mart setting, it's trivial to ask for a variant item that works for an elemental type instead of undead).

There may be other items that actually raise your level for all purposes and not just checks, but that list isn't quite what we're looking for here.

I originally made the list for a necromancer, so there may be some things that are undead-specific. I just copy & pasted it from a textfile.

Most of it should still work though, with the caveat that a lot of non-undead turning/rebuking is up to DM interpretation anyway, because there's remarkable little material on it and a lot of it isn't all that clear or even contradicting, so YMMV.

[Ashtagon]

My point was that that item at least doesn't even work as you describe for use against undead, since it only provides a bonus on the d20 rolls, and not a bonus to your level.

Sometimes, the devil is in the details.

[Flickerdart]

I totally forgot about the whole "half your level" thing. Still, a level 6 character could get two permanent mephit slaves for about the same price as a +2 item.

[Eisfalken]

If it doesn't have a specific task, I think planar binding spells only lasts days/level even when mind-controlled, but the wording seems to indicate you can keep it basically enslaved in various ways anyway. I would warn you, however, that a savvy spellcaster can use dominate monster to rob your control (command does not automatically supercede anything; it has to save/SR against dominate, but if it fails, you're screwed), and antimagic of any kind will definitely break both your command (supernatural ability) and the binding (which means the instant it steps out of antimagic, it goes back home via planar travel). Also... your mook can just die, of course, and since it is a calling, you can't call it back with binding; you have to start over with a new critter.

But even if all that were to happen, this idea is still amazing for an uber-summon spell. The duration is at least days/level if not indefinite, still doesn't cost you anything (no material costs or XP), it's a calling spell (so no limitations like with summoning), command checks are far superior forms of control (no duration and no saves/SR). It's not a guaranteed success, so there's a chance you may do without for a few days if you lose your pet in a dungeon fight.

As a DM, I wouldn't be terribly troubled with this use. You have a limit on the size of creatures you can do this to: 6, 12, or 18 HD, tops, with a hard limit of half your own HD. It gives you a good advantage, but it's not foolproof in combat; a smart creature can get rid of it with a variety of ways (dominate monster, dispel, antimagic, or just killing it with its own mooks).

[ATHATH]

I think I tried to do something like that a while ago, but with Outsiders and an Incarnate (Paladin variant).

[sleepyphoenixx]

My point was that that item at least doesn't even work as you describe for use against undead, since it only provides a bonus on the d20 rolls, and not a bonus to your level.

Sometimes, the devil is in the details.

Are you looking at the MIC version? Because that one increases effective turning level, which is what determines how many HD you can command.
Sadly it also specifies undead, so you'll have to talk to your DM if you want it to work for other rebuking.

There's an argument to be made for anything that says "turn/rebuke undead" to include non-undead turning/rebuking unless otherwise specified, because it is kind of inconsistent and there's some precedent with things like the Rebuke Dragons ACF that specify they count as TU.
It's not 100% clear however, and the rules are generally silent about non-undead turning with very few exceptions.

[Ashtagon]

Are you looking at the MIC version? Because that one increases effective turning level, which is what determines how many HD you can command.
Sadly it also specifies undead, so you'll have to talk to your DM if you want it to work for other rebuking.

There's an argument to be made for anything that says "turn/rebuke undead" to include non-undead turning/rebuking unless otherwise specified, because it is kind of inconsistent and there's some precedent with things like the Rebuke Dragons ACF that specify they count as TU.
It's not 100% clear however, and the rules are generally silent about non-undead turning with very few exceptions.


Spending 1 or more charges increases your effective cleric level for the purpose of a single turn or rebuke undead check, which must be made before the end of your turn.

That seems to be clear about only being for the purpose of a single check, and not for any other purpose.

tbh, I'd be happy to let a PC make talisman of fire elemental mastery, changing the item prerequisites as appropriate. In a magic-mart setting, I'd let them buy one. In a non-mart setting, if they asked, I'd consider planting one in the next dungeon for them to find. My issue is that the item simply doesn't do what you are trying to make it do, even when used against undead.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That seems to be clear about only being for the purpose of a single check, and not for any other purpose.

tbh, I'd be happy to let a PC make talisman of fire elemental mastery, changing the item prerequisites as appropriate. In a magic-mart setting, I'd let them buy one. In a non-mart setting, if they asked, I'd consider planting one in the next dungeon for them to find. My issue is that the item simply doesn't do what you are trying to make it do, even when used against undead.

It increases your effective level for a turn/rebuke check. You only need one check to rebuke/command something infinitely.
It's no different from casting a spell. If your CL changes after casting it has absolutely no impact on a spell that's already active.


Spending 1 or more charges increases your effective cleric level for the purpose of a single turn or rebuke undead check,...

Turning undead only has 2 components: Turning check and turning damage. We don't care about damage, because even with a minimal roll and Cha 8 you'll still command a creature of half your effective level.

We care about the turning check, which is a simple 1d20+cha check, This determines the most powerful undead you can affect, based on your cleric level -4 to +4, depending on the roll.
The talisman does no give a bonus to the check. It increases your effective level, so a level 8 cleric would count as a level 10-12 cleric for that one check.

And that means you can command a creature with half that bonus in HD more, because 1/2 your effective turning HD is the limit on a single creature when commanding.
It only checks that at the time you roll rebuke, so it doesn't matter that the bonus isn't permanent.

This makes the Talisman of Undead Mastery one of the best items to buy for a rebuker btw, because for 3,000gp you increase the limit of (at least) 2 of your minions by 2 HD.

[Ashtagon]

I guess this is where we should shake hands, and agree to disagree. I'm of the school of thought that says that ongoing benefits should have ongoing bonuses. Getting an extra 2 HD added to the biggest critter you can command is an ongoing benefit since it remains under your command, so by my school of thought, that should require the bonus to be continuous, and not just for a single check. I suppose technically my school would allow you to maintain command for one round, then your effective level drops back to normal when the energy of that charge expires.

(as a related aside, I also expect characters to need to maintain prerequisites for feats and prestige classes to benefit from them)

[Mr Adventurer]

Anti magic would surely suppress, not break, the control.