Why not just let the world be destroyed?

[Kruploy]

Hel's plan relies on the dwarfs dying dishonorably right? So why not have the dwarf gods massacre their own followers en masse with their godly powers? This would make sure that the dwarfs all die in battle after which the gods can unmake and remake the world again and get rid of the Snarl.

It would take like a day? Or two? It would solve all of the world's problems.

[Keltest]

Besides the great variety of 4th wall reasons why this is not a thing that is ever going to happen, I don't see how getting murdered by their gods to prevent Hel from taking over is any different from getting murdered by all the gods to keep the Snarl imprisoned.

[littlebum2002]

Besides the great variety of 4th wall reasons why this is not a thing that is ever going to happen, I don't see how getting murdered by their gods to prevent Hel from taking over is any different from getting murdered by all the gods to keep the Snarl imprisoned.

This.

Of course, since we now know it's gonna be a few days before The Decision, even if they vote to end the world the dwarves have time to die honorably. The North Gods should just send memoes to all their clerics to tell any Dwarf they can find to go out looking to fight Evil creatures ASAP. I'm pretty sure they can get a good number wiped out before the world ends, thus lowering Hel's numbers quite a bit.

[martianmister]

A literal fight to the death is only alternate way to save them all.

[NerdyKris]

There's so many things wrong with the opening post here.

A) Only an evil god would do that, not a good god, and the good gods would object.

B) The gods really don't seem to care that much. Hel getting one over on them isn't going to hurt them, just change the status quo. Loki is annoyed, but nobody else has said anything.

C) Most people don't want to murder their own followers. Unmake reality? Sure. Having a direct hand in murder, no.

D) Why are we going straight from hands off to murder everyone? Wouldn't they just kill the dwarven rulers? Or send a contingent of clerics to destroy Durkon, since he's no longer under the protection of the Godsmoot? Or warn the dwarves about his plan? Seriously, what about this story makes you go to that theory first? There's literally hundreds of other options before that. Such as a group of heroes currently about to set off to stop the plan.

[Pyrous]

D) Why are we going straight from hands off to murder everyone? Wouldn't they just kill the dwarven rulers? Or send a contingent of clerics to destroy Durkon, since he's no longer under the protection of the Godsmoot? Or warn the dwarves about his plan? Seriously, what about this story makes you go to that theory first? There's literally hundreds of other options before that. Such as a group of heroes currently about to set off to stop the plan.

Maybe they know that the little buggers went to the godsmoot. If they can't stop 4 vampires, then they can't stop an epic lich and a high level goblin cleric, not to mention the monster in the darkness. If that is really the case, why have another vote. End it right here and now.

The Order is being tested. If they can beat the vampires they are worthy enough to try and beat Team Evil. If not, why bother. Destroy the world right now.

I know, I know. Rich says that's because of plot. Rich also says OotS is not a pristine work of art. And that suicide won't solve the problem because he don't want to give depressed teenagers ideas.

Guess what? "Death of the autor" goes both ways. His work is more solid than he thinks.

[Jay R]

Solutions to the problems in the story that eliminate the rest of the story are not actually solutions.

[Czhorat]

The Tick answered this best in the animated series:


"You can't destroy the world. That's where I keep all my stuff!"

[NerdyKris]

My main point was, if the gods are able to just go down and start attacking people, why wouldn't they just attack the four or so vampires in question, or the clan leaders, or alert the clan leaders, or just point at the vampires and say "they're trying to destroy the world, everyone stop them"? Those steps should come long before "Kill every living being by hand". My problem is that people constantly during this plotline have jumped straight to things like suicide and genocide, brushing off all the steps in between. It's kind of morbid and disturbing.

[Jasdoif]

Solutions to the problems in the story that eliminate the rest of the story are not actually solutions.I don't even think it's a solution, really. It's not like the dwarves would be in a position to actually resist a widescale deific assault; it'd be less "battle" and more "casual massacre", which does not strike me as an honorable way to die; their souls would still go to Hel. And unmaking the world ends the wager that Hel wants to end (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html), and would of course be during/after the influx of souls..so she'd be in position to influence things for the next world just like she wanted.

Fulfilling Hel's goals so Hel can't fulfill them....Isn't really "mission accomplished" territory. More like "WHY DID I THINK THAT PLAN MADE SENSE".

[Porthos]

Setting aside the already made point that this makes for a terrible story, there's the minor point of if one god directly interferes, gods who don't like what that one is doing will interfere back.

Remember, it's NOT "Hel v Everyone" here. It's "Destroy the World v Give the Mortals Another Chance". If Team GtMAC decideds to screw the rules and directly murder a bunch of dwarves in allegedly honorable combat, at least some of Team DtW will say, "Oh no you don't" and do something to stop them.

It's one thing to indirectly interfere, through the actions of your followers. It's even another thing to grant the divine miracle now and again (if no one else really cares all that much). And it's yet another thing to tell your followers to break the rules (as theorized in the latest comic), though that's almost certainly the extreme edge.

But to manifest on the Prime and basically say "Screw the covenant. Screw the vote. Imma overturing the table and making mah OWN rules now"? Well, we all saw what happened the last time that happened.

The whole point of the Godsmoot is to stop things like this from happening. Even if the OP's supposition is correct, which is dubious, it wouldn't be worth it.

[Vinyadan]

Can the good gods reach for good ends through evil means? I mean, aligmentically speaking.

[theNater]

It would solve all of the world's problems.
No, it would solve all the gods' problems. The world includes a large number of mortals who do not want to die at this time; your plan would not help them in any way.

EDIT: Upon further reflection, it doesn't even do that. The vote was to keep the world intact before the gods knew of Hel's designs. Your plan doesn't negate Odin's visions of yarn winding yarn, or Thor's obligation to his followers, or Sif and Loki's emotional attachment to this world, or Freya's reluctance to kill, or Frigg's concern for continued worship, or Mani's laziness.

[Jay R]

Setting aside the already made point that this makes for a terrible story, there's the minor point of if one god directly interferes, gods who don't like what that one is doing will interfere back.

You're right. Obviously, a party with Banjo in it can't directly interfere.

[Vinyadan]

Surtur seemed to enjoy inference, although I kinda wonder what the rules were. I remember supposing there was a non-interference pact among the gods, but I can't remember a strip in which it was actually declared to exist.

[Emanick]

Surtur seemed to enjoy inference, although I kinda wonder what the rules were. I remember supposing there was a non-interference pact among the gods, but I can't remember a strip in which it was actually declared to exist.

That scene may not have taken place on the Material Plane. That's been my headcanon ever since Rich clarified how gods operate in the OOTSverse.

[NerdyKris]

Surtur is a demigod, it's probably not as bad when they fight. But he's also shown fighting Loki in the same book. I think an easier explanation is just that those scenes never happened, since they were so early on. I'd consider them the same as a fourth wall breaking joke, or Roy killing defenseless goblins, or Elan accidentally killing everyone in the dungeon, since it takes them days to get through.

[Keltest]

Surtur is a demigod, it's probably not as bad when they fight. But he's also shown fighting Loki in the same book. I think an easier explanation is just that those scenes never happened, since they were so early on. I'd consider them the same as a fourth wall breaking joke, or Roy killing defenseless goblins, or Elan accidentally killing everyone in the dungeon, since it takes them days to get through.

I suspect its more a quirk unique to the Northern Pantheon. Theyre actually physically fighting, not using the strands of reality, so they can get away with it as long as they keep it within specific rules.

[Jack Of Rivia]

Setting aside the already made point that this makes for a terrible story, there's the minor point of if one god directly interferes, gods who don't like what that one is doing will interfere back.

Remember, it's NOT "Hel v Everyone" here. It's "Destroy the World v Give the Mortals Another Chance". If Team GtMAC decideds to screw the rules and directly murder a bunch of dwarves in allegedly honorable combat, at least some of Team DtW will say, "Oh no you don't" and do something to stop them.

It's one thing to indirectly interfere, through the actions of your followers. It's even another thing to grant the divine miracle now and again (if no one else really cares all that much). And it's yet another thing to tell your followers to break the rules (as theorized in the latest comic), though that's almost certainly the extreme edge.

But to manifest on the Prime and basically say "Screw the covenant. Screw the vote. Imma overturing the table and making mah OWN rules now"? Well, we all saw what happened the last time that happened.

The whole point of the Godsmoot is to stop things like this from happening. Even if the OP's supposition is correct, which is dubious, it wouldn't be worth it.

Well, obviously, the gods cannot interfere directly that way, for the reasons you 've written ,but maybe they could use a more sublte approach. Hear me out.

Actually, there are 3 teams in this game: the GtMAC team, the DtW team, and the DtWbGNStH team (Destroy the World but Give No Souls To Hel). A smaller team, of course, of 2 maybe 3 deities, like Heimdall and Sunna, and maybe Skadi.
That 3 gods could be sending a message - maybe a vision, to all of their dwarven clerics. Something like that:
"The Rapture is upon us, my children. Hear my calling, take your weapon and earn yourself with an honorable death your place in valhalla."
It's a very minor interference. In the one or two days that will take to finalize the vote, maybe a significant percentage of the dwarf population may be able to save his soul. And it won't be an bad story, after all - extremely dark and depressing,but not that bad, i think.

[Gift Jeraff]

Hel's plan relies on the dwarfs dying dishonorably right? So why not have the dwarf gods massacre their own followers en masse with their godly powers? This would make sure that the dwarfs all die in battle after which the gods can unmake and remake the world again and get rid of the Snarl.

It would take like a day? Or two? It would solve all of the world's problems.

Agreed.

/thread

[theinsulabot]

am I the only one who remembers that roy (almost certainly correctly) describes the next workd as one filled with if not literally ruled by legions of undead abominations?

[Vinyadan]

Maybe the gods can only act directly in territories under their control. After all, Thor did warp the rules a little bit once with the sonic damage, and he wasn't allowed to do that in Azure city. Running around in physical form is a different deal, but it wouldn't be impossible. And maybe they don't act like that too often to avoid escalations and all-out wars between gods on the mortal plane. Anyway, Thor admitted that he had bent the rules, but it's hard to understand what he meant: the rules that bind the gods, or the rules of D&D?

[Darth Paul]

The Tick answered this best in the animated series:

I suggest a new forum rule; the one who answers with a quote from The Tick which is actually relevant, wins the thread.

Czhorat wins this thread, by the Tick Rule.

[137beth]

am I the only one who remembers that roy (almost certainly correctly) describes the next workd as one filled with if not literally ruled by legions of undead abominations?

You are not, the thing you are remembering was back in 1002 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html). The OP's contention, however, seems to be that both Roy and Hel are wrong about what would happen if the world were to be destroyed in the next few strips.

[Throknor]

You are not, the thing you are remembering was back in 1002 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1002.html). The OP's contention, however, seems to be that both Roy and Hel are wrong about what would happen if the world were to be destroyed in the next few strips.
Which is fine, except that things could be worse. When someone says 'you may feel a slight pinch', them being wrong could be anywhere from 'a tickle' to 'the most excruciating pain ever'. If the gods screw up and the snarl gets a couple of them before they get the prison remade, would that be good or bad? Clearly relative to one's point of view and which gods, but the point remains: it's generally better to attempt to stabilize a bad situation than it is to let it go into an unknowable one.

[Kruploy]

What I'm saying is that the Dwarf Gods can arrange for their followers to die honorably either by killing them in battle themselves or using their clerics as proxies to do. After which they can remake the world and ensure that the Snarl remains locked up forever.

The world as it is, is already far too corrupt and rotten if sick and perverted creatures like Xykon or Redcloak can run free with their abominable plans, maiming and murdering countless good aligned creatures and innocents with psychopathic glee (Xykon) or flimsy self delusions (Redcloak). The new world turning into an undead wasteland only happens if Hel wins. If this plan were to take place Hel's plans would be decimated. Xykon and Redcloak would be turned into mindless lemures in The Lower Planes. The Dark One's plans would be foiled and the Snarl would no longer be a threat.

The best part is that not one good creature is getting screwed here as after they die, they get to go to The Higher Planes with their loved ones while the bad guys all pay for their crimes in The Lower Planes. The good guys get to exist in eternal bliss, the bad guys get the punishments they deserve and everybody wins.

If this plan were to take place all the evils of the world would be eradicated and then the Gods, with all their considerable experience from the previous world, can remake it into a place of happiness and order where evil is kept to a minimum as while there are evil gods, the majority of the Gods are good-aligned and they can outvote the evil ones.

I know it won't happen as it takes the spotlight away from Roy but I really feel this is the best option to solve all the problems. The only reason it's not happening is because, as I said, it takes the spotlight away from Roy.

[dancrilis]

<shortened for length>

You are operating on perhaps very faulty assumptions, the first of which is that the Gods you wipe out the Dwarven people at all - if they try that directly than the other Gods can act directly also, including the Dark One wiping out the defenders of the last gate and having Redcloak smash it, releasing the snarl and sending all the souls to oblivion.

Separately you seem to think that Good is ultimately more powerful than Evil - you think this despite the fact that Evil seems to be winning at a global scale in the current world and in the new world the agreement that holds Hel at bay would be voided so even without the expected power boost she would still be a main goddess.

Powerful beings like the IFCC will get the influx of souls from the evil ones that die, and may be able to put there plan to overthrow the heavens into place.

Finally Xykon is epic - he might very well have backup plans for the world being destroyed to survive (outside of his astral fortress where his phylactery likely does not reside).

So the gods break the world and the following happens:
The world only gets remade if the Gods (of all alignments) agree on how.
The Dark One gets a seat at the table.
Hel is freed to act as the other gods can in the new world.
Powerful evil beings may get a power boost they might be able to use immediately (where good beings wait to use the souls when they get bored of existence and join the plane).
Powerful evil beings may survive the worlds destruction in a number of ways - and than rejoin the new one.
And potentially not a single soul is saved.

Even if the gods order there clerics to do it - some clerics might break faith for such an order, and also it frees Hel to use her minions in the same way - possible freeing Nightshades of all kinds onto the world - where they can reap souls for Hel as needed before the end.

[Kantaki]

Okay, repeat after me: Any plan that involves slaughtering your followers is a bad plan. Especially when you still need them afterwards.

More importantly, how does the end of the world eradicate all evil?
The lower planes would still exist, the Dark One would still exist -more powerful than ever thanks to all the goblin souls- the evil gods would still exist.
And if you propose that those get killed together with all the mortals I only have one work for you: Snarl Mk. 2.

[Pyrous]

What I'm saying is that the Dwarf Gods can arrange for their followers to die honorably either by killing them in battle themselves or using their clerics as proxies to do. After which they can remake the world and ensure that the Snarl remains locked up forever.

That would be exactly what Frigg was advising against.


The best part is that not one good creature is getting screwed here as after they die, they get to go to The Higher Planes with their loved ones while the bad guys all pay for their crimes in The Lower Planes. The good guys get to exist in eternal bliss, the bad guys get the punishments they deserve and everybody wins.

The paladin who was trying to redeem his evil sibling would be way more than angry that their efforts were in vain. No, not everybody wins, and more specifically to the position that evil people are not people, some good people lose.


The world as it is, is already far too corrupt and rotten if sick and perverted creatures like Xykon or Redcloak can run free with their abominable plans, maiming and murdering countless good aligned creatures and innocents with psychopathic glee (Xykon) or flimsy self delusions (Redcloak). The new world turning into an undead wasteland only happens if Hel wins. If this plan were to take place Hel's plans would be decimated. Xykon and Redcloak would be turned into mindless lemures in The Lower Planes. The Dark One's plans would be foiled and the Snarl would no longer be a threat.

The Dark One's plan A would be foiled, but not his plan B (get the world destroyed so the other gods have to listen to him when making a new one). He could also alert Redcloak that he must flee right now. Redcloak casts Gate to The Dark One's plane. And Gates back to the Material Plane after the world is rebuilt. Even if he dies with the world, his soul would go to The Dark One's plane. And you would risk him becoming a goblin demigod.


If this plan were to take place all the evils of the world would be eradicated and then the Gods, with all their considerable experience from the previous world, can remake it into a place of happiness and order where evil is kept to a minimum as while there are evil gods, the majority of the Gods are good-aligned and they can outvote the evil ones.

There's no evidence of that. In fact, I would guess they average somewhere around neutral. And you are freeing Hel from her wager, which means she actually wins something, and giving The Dark One power in the making of the new world. So it starts to avarage towards evil. The world actually becomes more evil anyway.


I know it won't happen as it takes the spotlight away from Roy but I really feel this is the best option to solve all the problems. The only reason it's not happening is because, as I said, it takes the spotlight away from Roy.

It's only the best option if it happens exactly in the way you are picturing it. There are a lot of other reasons the gods simply don't do it.

[Kruploy]

You are operating on perhaps very faulty assumptions, the first of which is that the Gods you wipe out the Dwarven people at all

That's why I said they could use proxies such as their clerics.


Finally Xykon is epic - he might very well have backup plans for the world being destroyed to survive

Given how he reacted to the loss of his phylactery, that's highly improbable.


The world only gets remade if the Gods (of all alignments) agree on how.

The majority of which are good.


The Dark One gets a seat at the table.

As he should. He should get the chance to make the goblin race more than just cannon fodder. That is a good thing. Whatever evils he would doubtlessly plot can be held in check by the good gods.


Hel is freed to act as the other gods can in the new world.

What can't Hel do now besides not participating in Godsmoot meetings?

What is she freed from?


Powerful evil beings may survive the worlds destruction in a number of ways - and than rejoin the new one.

? Please explain.


and also it frees Hel to use her minions in the same way - possible freeing Nightshades of all kinds onto the world - where they can reap souls for Hel as needed before the end.

If she could do this what is preventing Hel from doing this now?


Any plan that involves slaughtering your followers is a bad plan. Especially when you still need them afterwards.

Killing them is not the same as exterminating them. The gods will claim and protect their followers souls. They are helping them transcend their physical forms and guide them into paradise. Isn't that how people are saved in many religions?


More importantly, how does the end of the world eradicate all evil?

Yes it doesn't eradicate all evil. What I meant to say was, it eradicates all of the social systems built by mortals that allow evils such as Xykon to exist and propagate. After the new world is built the good gods would have all the experience of the previous world as well their old followers' experiences to aid their new followers in building a better social environment.


The paladin who was trying to redeem his evil sibling would be way more than angry that their efforts were in vain.

Redemption is a rare and special thing. It's not for everybody. I am sure the paladin would understand that despite his anger. Otherwise, he is not worthy to be a paladin.


Even if he dies with the world, his soul would go to The Dark One's plane. And you would risk him becoming a goblin demigod
Hmmn so all one has to do to avoid punishment for doing evil deeds is to worship an evil god? I don't think it works like that.

[dancrilis]

That's why I said they could use proxies such as their clerics.

And do the Dwarves line up for ritual slaughter?



Given how he reacted to the loss of his phylactery, that's highly improbable.
He is a sorcerer capable of level 9th spells, he has a very good charisma - as such he is going to be good at bluffing.
And having a backup plan is not the same as wanting to use your backup plan.



The majority of which are good.
There is no evidence of that.


What can't Hel do now besides not participating in Godsmoot meetings?

What is she freed from?
Her ill fated bet with Thor - she can as it happens participate in Godsmoot meetings.



? Please explain.
Plane Shift, phylactery, deals with extraplaner powers etc.



If she could do this what is preventing Hel from doing this now?
The same thing that would prevent the gods sending a host of angels to cleanse the earth.


Hmmn so all one has to do to avoid punishment for doing evil deeds is to worship an evil god? I don't think it works like that.
It works exactly like that. Jirix went to his eternal reward at the Dark Ones side.

[Kantaki]

That's why I said they could use proxies such as their clerics.

I'm not sure they (the good gods at least) would have many clerics left if they demand something like that. Accepting that the gods want to end the world is one thing, the gods (outside those with fitting domains) telling you to murder your fellow beings something entirely else.


Given how he reacted to the loss of his phylactery, that's highly improbable.

Considering he has a fortress on the Astral Plane some way to escape the destruction of the Material Plane isn't impossible.


The majority of which are good.

Are they? I think there would be more non-good than good deities all things considered. Not to mention that even the good ones don't care that much about the well-being of mortals on the larger scale.


As he should. He should get the chance to make the goblin race more than just cannon fodder. That is a good thing. Whatever evils he would doubtlessly plot can be held in check by the good gods.

I think you are too optimistic there. The other gods have their own agendas they have to pay attention to. Not to mention that the D.O. has allies among the other evil gods - who in turn have their own plans that the good ones have to keep in mind.


What can't Hel do now besides not participating in Godsmoot meetings?

What is she freed from?

If she could do this what is preventing Hel from doing this now?

Hel can't have living followers (or at least clerics, but I don't think the distinction is that important) in this world because of her bet with Thor and Loki that she could get more dwarven souls than Thor solely from the dishonoured dead. And acting directly/using extraplanar servants allows the other gods to do the same.


Killing them is not the same as exterminating them. The gods will claim and protect their followers souls. They are helping them transcend their physical forms and guide them into paradise. Isn't that how people are saved in many religions?

Errm sure, because those souls will be really happy when they find out that their gods murdered them to keep Hel from winning her bet and getting more powerful in the next world.


Yes it doesn't eradicate all evil. What I meant to say was, it eradicates all of the social systems built by mortals that allow evils such as Xykon to exist and propagate. After the new world is built the good gods would have all the experience of the previous world as well their old followers' experiences to aid their new followers in building a better social environment.

Unless the next world is inhabitated solely by lifeforms without free will there will still be beings that turn evil. Especially since evil gods, devils, demons, dämons and whatever else will still be around and influence things.


Hmmn so all one has to do to avoid punishment for doing evil deeds is to worship an evil god? I don't think it works like that.

Funny how that works, isn't it? Yes, if you served your god faithfully in life you have a good chance that they reward you afterwards. Especially if you are a divine caster that channelled their power. Especially if they are the god of your race and building a army to fight a war.

[Pyrous]

Redemption is a rare and special thing. It's not for everybody. I am sure the paladin would understand that despite his anger. Otherwise, he is not worthy to be a paladin.


That the gods destroyed the world because they are cowards? Paladins don't understand cowardice in ultrapowerful beings, otherwise they wouldn't be worthy to be paladins.

Just to be clear: the gods don't need to destroy the world yet. Doing it would be cowardice.

Besides, the point is not if the paladin would understand it. The point is that the paladin lost. Not everybody won. Not even everybody good won. Going to the appropriate afterlife is not winning. For this hypothetical paladin, it would be a consolation prize. Which is just another way of saying that he lost.



Hmmn so all one has to do to avoid punishment for doing evil deeds is to worship an evil god? I don't think it works like that.

No. You have to worship the right evil god. In Redcloak's case, The Dark One. In Durkula's case, Hel. As long as they don't fail them, and become very powerful, they'll have a place better than the lesser worshipers of those gods. As a servant sure, but a higher ranking servant, and better then actual eternal punishment. Remember the message from the Dark One that Jirix delivered to Redcloak: "Don't screw this up. No pressure, though."

[Cizak]

Hmmn so all one has to do to avoid punishment for doing evil deeds is to worship an evil god? I don't think it works like that.

The ABD's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) reaction to being brought back from the afterlife was not "Oh thank god, I was in a horrible place!".

[Cazero]

That's why I said they could use proxies such as their clerics.

Assuming for the sake of argument that the gods decided to take such an out of character measure and wouldn't kickstart the Snarl v2 in the process...

Thor : Quick ! Gather everyone and have them kill each other in honorable fights to the death !
Local Priest of Thor : I don't know how you got on that line Loki, but this isn't even remotely believable. You're getting bad at this.
Thor : But all your souls are at stake !
Local Priest of Thor : I'm gonna hang up now.

[Kruploy]

Assuming for the sake of argument that the gods decided to take such an out of character measure and wouldn't kickstart the Snarl v2 in the process...

Thor : Quick ! Gather everyone and have them kill each other in honorable fights to the death !
Local Priest of Thor : I don't know how you got on that line Loki, but this isn't even remotely believable. You're getting bad at this.
Thor : But all your souls are at stake !
Local Priest of Thor : I'm gonna hang up now.

More like:

Gods speaking through their clerics:

"Our loyal and courageous dwarven children, you have performed an admirable job of protecting the good, the justice and, most importantly, the honor of the dwarven people to this day. However, the day of Ragnarok is upon us and the evil goddess Hel plots your eternal damnation in her wretched halls by denying you honourable ends. In order to avoid this undeserved fate, take up arms, fight and die with honour so that you may go to your eternal reward. Heed my words, my dwarven children. You have until nightfall for that is when the world shall come to its end."

Or something like that.

[blunk]

Every time I see this thread, I think to myself, "I ask myself that question all the time."

Carry on.

[Kruploy]

Every time I see this thread, I think to myself, "I ask myself that question all the time."

Carry on.

That brought a smile to my face lol.

Is this a joke or do you really feel that way?

[blunk]

That brought a smile to my face lol.

Is this a joke or do you really feel that way?Some of each, but don't mind me. I have issues. :smallsmile:

[theNater]

...not one good creature is getting screwed here as after they die, they get to go to The Higher Planes...
:roy:: ...I've been dead before, too - and for all the comforts of the afterlife, I'm in no hurry to trade this existence for that one.

So yes, there is at least one good creature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html) getting screwed here.


...the majority of the Gods are good-aligned and they can outvote the evil ones.
You got a source for that?

[Cazero]

More like:

Gods speaking through their clerics:

"Our loyal and courageous dwarven children, you have performed an admirable job of protecting the good, the justice and, most importantly, the honor of the dwarven people to this day. However, the day of Ragnarok is upon us and the evil goddess Hel plots your eternal damnation in her wretched halls by denying you honourable ends. In order to avoid this undeserved fate, take up arms, fight and die with honour so that you may go to your eternal reward. Heed my words, my dwarven children. You have until nightfall for that is when the world shall come to its end."

Or something like that.

Because it worked so well in Girard's pyramid when Thor and Nergal possessed their respective clerics, Thor to avoid that whole vampire cleric thing and Nergal to make the fight even.
Ho right. It didn't happen. Because the gods don't do that. They have must have agreements about direct interference.

The speech thing could conceivably happen if the Summon Proxy spell was cast. But you have to convince the cleric first, and he needs to be of a high enough level, and small towns might not even have a cleric at all, and maybe having hundreds of proxies at once isn't possible. Far from ideal.

And then there is the part where dwarves are ordered to fight their families to the death. I'm quite sure most of them would be against the idea. This is the kind of event that create atheists movements in worlds where gods existence is a proven fact. More specificaly, atheists movements that aim to kill the gods to make true their conviction that none should exist.

And then there is the time limit. An exctinction-level event takes a long time, not an afternoon. They don't have that time. Because the other gods are not going to wait before destroying the world.

And then there is the part where the whole plan is unquestionably Evil and no Good god would ever do that. You're not 'mercifuly' killing someone to save his soul from oblivion (wich already have hints of Evilness), you're forcing every member of a specie into a long succession of fights to the death against people they know and care about until none of them remain. That's Evil in so many ways.

And then there is the part where Hel pouts but isn't completely thwarted. The only thing you prevented is her rule over the Northern Pantheon, wich she doesn't strictly needs. Instead of being plagued with the dominance of powerful undeads, world 3.0 will be plagued with aggressive and vindicative undeads.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Powerful evil beings may survive the worlds destruction in a number of ways - and than rejoin the new one.


? Please explain.

In D&D cosmology there are many planes of existence, sort of like dimensions: elemental planes of earth/air/fire/water, lower planes where the IFCC reside, upper planes like the one we see in Roy's afterlife, the astral plane where Xykon's tomb-fortress-thingie is, and so on. The plane with the mortal world is called the prime material plane. The gods are only talking about destroying that one. Lots of powerful evil beings live on different planes and would not be affected, and some mortals can leave the prime material too (for example Redcloak could cast gate and go to the Dark One's plane, then return after the world is remade).