Swashbuckler Dip on a Magus Build?

[Palanan]

I may need a new character soon, and I'm thinking Swashbuckler 1/Magus 4, using Inspired Blade for a bit of Int synergy. I'm leaning towards Ifrit for the bonus to Dex and Cha, and his magus spells can't help but have a fiery theme.

Will this be a decent chassis to start with? And if so, what feats would fill it out?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Eesh. With Flamboyant Arcana, you can get Opportune Parry and Riposte, even though Arcane Deed has been nerfed to hell. If you want to be a dex-based magus, just focus on rapier and take the feats necessary, no need to give up caster levels.

[Palanan]

I'm new to the ACG and not familiar with Flamboyant Arcana, but apparently there have been some errata (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/paizo---magus-arcana/flamboyant-arcana-ex) to the latter.

And as someone without much experience in either class, it seems like FA would simply drain uses from my already-limited arcane pool.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, that's how you do it without multiclassing. Which is generally regarded as a bad idea, especially on a caster. A dip in Inspired Blade is getting you the Panache pool keyed off Int, some deeds, Weapon Focus (Rapier), and Weapon Finesse, but only with rapier. I'd say its a better use of levels to just take weapon finesse at 1st level (and go human for Focus as well), then take Flamboyant Arcana for your level 3 arcana, and fencing grace as your level 3 feat.

[Geddy2112]

The parry riposte is better than almost every other defensive arcana, and works well with the dex finesse build. I second not dipping-you don't need the derring do most of the time or the dodge, but the parry riposte can save you from a really nasty hit. Just take the feats required to get dex to damage on your rapier and call it a day.

You won't burn your arcane pool as fast as you think-you have casting for most of your combat actions. You might spend 1 point to start combat with a juiced weapon, and maybe 1-2 more in combat on arcane stuff. You get 1/2 level+int mod a day, so you should be fine. A swashbuckler dip gets you a bit more off the bat, but it is not worth it to slow down your magus casting and pool progression.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

And, 2 extra points are only a feat away.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Geddy2112
Just take the feats required to get dex to damage on your rapier and call it a day.

Well, with Inspired Blade I can take Slashing Grace at first level, which leaves me two more feats to work with. That's opposed to plain Magus 5, which would use all its feat slots to achieve the same effect.

Assuming I'm not missing something? Magus 5 would involve Weapon Focus (1st), Weapon Finesse (3rd) and Slashing Grace (5th), while Inspired Blade compresses all that into the first level and leaves two feat slots free.


Originally Posted Geddy2112
A swashbuckler dip gets you a bit more off the bat, but it is not worth it to slow down your magus casting and pool progression.

I should mention that this is for a low-level campaign, which will probably stay low-level for quite a while, so having more off the bat will be a proportionally greater benefit.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Finesse THEN Focus. Also, play human for the bonus feat. The magus also get a bonus feat at 5th level, which can be a combat feat. Also, if you want to cast 2nd-level spells, you don't want to dip.

[ghanjrho]

Remember that a lvl 1 Magus can't take Weapon Focus.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Ah, true. Getting dex-to-damage isn't that necessary, though; most of your damage should be coming from spells.

Oooor you can just go Str magus. But if you MUST play a dex magus, then Dervish Dancer. There is a reason its very popular for magi.

[Kurald Galain]

I may need a new character soon, and I'm thinking Swashbuckler 1/Magus 4, using Inspired Blade for a bit of Int synergy. I'm leaning towards Ifrit for the bonus to Dex and Cha, and his magus spells can't help but have a fiery theme.

Will this be a decent chassis to start with? And if so, what feats would fill it out?

Well, at low levels, a Swashbuckler dip is decent for a dexterity build. At moderate levels, however, you should retrain out of it. So it depends on what levels you'll be playing at, and whether your GM allows retraining.

For the ifrit, the Eldritch Scion archetype is worth considering, as it casts off charisma rather than intelligence.

Here's a list of feats (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) that may help.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph
Also, if you want to cast 2nd-level spells, you don't want to dip.

From what I'm seeing here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcasters/magus.html), a Magus 4 can cast second-level spells. Not sure if you meant something else?


Originally Posted by Ninjaxenomorph
Getting dex-to-damage isn't that necessary, though; most of your damage should be coming from spells.

Wait…after telling me to design my entire build around getting dex-to-damage, now you're saying it's not really necessary?


Originally Posted by Kurald Gulain
For the ifrit, the Eldritch Scion archetype is worth considering, as it casts off charisma rather than intelligence.

Interesting option, thanks. Bloodline powers are worth a look.


Originally Posted by Kurald Gulain
Here's a list of feats that may help.

And I will definitely be making use of your Magus guide, thank you.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I've played four magi. I know their ins and outs. I know the feat paths and I know the builds. Plus, dex-to-damage is a popular subject. I'm well-versed in how to get it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One lost caster level isn't going to kill you, and in return you get two feat taxes and two fantastic defensive options. It's not a bad deal at all.

[Florian]

It is interesting because it options up very functional build options and I´m not talking about pure spells there, A good OPaP builds can be equal to an good CaGM barbarian in the way of incentive tanking and that alone can be worth it.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
One lost caster level isn't going to kill you, and in return you get two feat taxes and two fantastic defensive options. It's not a bad deal at all.

Just to be clear, you're talking about my original concept?


Originally Posted by Florian
It is interesting because it options up very functional build options and I´m not talking about pure spells there, A good OPaP builds can be equal to an good CaGM barbarian in the way of incentive tanking and that alone can be worth it.

I'd like to hear more about these build options, but I have absolutely no idea what you mean by OPaP, CaGM or incentive tanking. I'm still fairly new to Pathfinder and I've never seen those terms before.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just to be clear, you're talking about my original concept?
Aye. wooooords

[Florian]

I'd like to hear more about these build options, but I have absolutely no idea what you mean by OPaP, CaGM or incentive tanking. I'm still fairly new to Pathfinder and I've never seen those terms before.

"Incentive Tanking" is you making yourself being the prime target that everyones goes after.
There´re three aspects paired to it: "In-Game" appearance, "Out-Game" knowledge and Mechanics.
Who do you go after first:
- The Guy in the ratty leather armor or the knight in full plate with a shield?
- The guys with AC 10 or AC 32?
- The guy with AC 30 that gives you free power attack or the guy with AC 30 that doesn´t?

OPaP and CaGM play with those: You make yourself the target numbero uno but you ability to strike back will simply multiply by you being the target.

[zergling.exe]

"Incentive Tanking" is you making yourself being the prime target that everyones goes after.
There´re three aspects paired to it: "In-Game" appearance, "Out-Game" knowledge and Mechanics.
Who do you go after first:
- The Guy in the ratty leather armor or the knight in full plate with a shield?
- The guys with AC 10 or AC 32?
- The guy with AC 30 that gives you free power attack or the guy with AC 30 that doesn´t?

OPaP and CaGM play with those: You make yourself the target numbero uno but you ability to strike back will simply multiply by you being the target.

Using the acronyms to explain what they are does not help people determine what the acronym is actually of. Still no idea what OPaP and CaGM are. Archetypes? Feats? Spells?

[Sayt]

CaGM is Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex), a Rage power and Pathfinder's version of Robilar's Gambit.

I have no idea what's they're talking about with OPaP, however.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I think its Opportune Parry & Riposte.

[Florian]

Using the acronyms to explain what they are does not help people determine what the acronym is actually of. Still no idea what OPaP and CaGM are. Archetypes? Feats? Spells?

OPaP is Opportune Parry and Riposte, a 1st level class features of the Swashbuckler, the class we´re talking about here, more specifically, the Dip we talk about.
In short: Every time they miss you, you strike back.
If you know the basics on how a Reach Cleric build work by using AoO to upgrade the number of attacks per rounds, this is it on steroids.

CaGM is Come and Get Me, a Barbarian Rage Power and the twisted sister to it.
In short: Every time they would hit you, you strike back.
(And no, unlike old Robillars Gambit, you also inflict conditions, possibly negating the whole attack)

[Grod_The_Giant]

OPaP is Opportune Parry and Riposte, a 1st level class features of the Swashbuckler, the class we´re talking about here, more specifically, the Dip we talk about.
Ah yes, so obvious. How could we have missed such a clear acronym?

[dascarletm]

Shouldn't it be OPaR?

[Florian]

Ah yes, so obvious. How could we have missed such a clear acronym?

*Shrugs*

That one level of Swashbuckler does not have that many class features that could have been meant, does it?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by zergling.exe
Using the acronyms to explain what they are does not help people determine what the acronym is actually of. Still no idea what OPaP and CaGM are.


Originally Posted by Sayt
I have no idea what's they're talking about with OPaP, however.


Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
Ah yes, so obvious. How could we have missed such a clear acronym?


Originally Posted by Florian
*shrugs*

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was utterly baffled by those acronyms. It wasn't remotely clear what they referred to.




Originally Posted by Florian
A good OPaP builds can be equal to an good CaGM barbarian in the way of incentive tanking and that alone can be worth it.

Now that I can finally understand this sentence, can you provide some more details on a parry/riposte build? Sounds promising, but I don't know much about Reach Clerics and AoOs, so a little more detail would be appreciated.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, to take the most advantage of OP&R you should pick up combat reflexes.

[Sayt]

Come and Get Me and Robilar's Gambit have almost exactly the wording, but CaGM requires you to be raging, but you resolve your attack first.

And Robilar's and CaGM both give you attacks of opportunity, so you can put riders like stunning fist, or substitute them for trips or some other thing. Robilar's give you the opportunity to stop full attacks, CaGM gives you the opportunity to stop all attacks, but it's class and condition locked.

Anyway, back to the actual topic, I agree with Grod: one or two levels of Inspired Blade will do no real harm, especially with the Magical Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) netting you back the caster levels. So you're a level or two behind in spell access, does that hurt your theoretical power? Yes. Is that extra power level absolutely vital to the functioning of the character? ...not in most games, by a long shot.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Well, if your GM allows Combat Tricks & Stamina to apply the Amateur Swashbuckler lets you pick two first level deeds and the Combat Trick doesn't have the restriction against Opportune Parry & Riposte. Alternatively, talk to your GM about using the pre-errata / pre-nerfed version of Arcane Deeds. Recent rounds of errata have had very questionable changes, often due to PFS whining or attempts to protect poorly designed classes.

[Kurald Galain]

OPaP is Opportune Parry and Riposte, a 1st level class features of the Swashbuckler, the class we´re talking about here, more specifically, the Dip we talk about.
In short: Every time they miss you, you strike back.

Not exactly. Parrying is an opportunity attack, but riposte is an immediate action. And you only get one of those per round. So you can parry a lot, but riposte only once.

Also, each parry costs a panache point, and those are based on your charisma (which is normally dump stat for a Magus, unless you're an Eldritch Scion). It's still a very good ability, but it's easier to pick it up with Flamboyant Arcana at level 3.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

He was talking about dipping Inspired Blade, which gets Int to Panache.

[Florian]

Kurald, we need to talk about a certain feat chain that gives you 2 extra AoO and what the means when you can dish out Dirty Tricks. But now: Good Night.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sayt
I agree with Grod: one or two levels of Inspired Blade will do no real harm, especially with the Magical Knack netting you back the caster levels. So you're a level or two behind in spell access, does that hurt your theoretical power? Yes. Is that extra power level absolutely vital to the functioning of the character? ...not in most games, by a long shot.

Okay, I appreciate the perspective, thanks.


Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ
Well, if your GM allows Combat Tricks & Stamina to apply the Amateur Swashbuckler lets you pick two first level deeds and the Combat Trick doesn't have the restriction against Opportune Parry & Riposte. Alternatively, talk to your GM about using the pre-errata / pre-nerfed version of Arcane Deeds. Recent rounds of errata have had very questionable changes, often due to PFS whining or attempts to protect poorly designed classes.

…I'm sure this is brilliant advice, I just can't follow it. The majority of my Pathfinder experience has been playing an off-the-shelf oracle, so all the elegant ins and outs are still beyond me.

If combat tricks and stamina are from Pathfinder Unchained, then sadly that's off the table, by explicit word of the DM. (And after I had my library order three copies of the book….) As for Arcane Deeds, anything requiring careful analysis of many-layered errata probably won't fly either.


Originally Posted by Florian
But now: Good Night.

…guess I won't be getting any actual build details, then.

:smallannoyed:

[Kurald Galain]

He was talking about dipping Inspired Blade, which gets Int to Panache.
Good point, I missed that.

In that case the limiting factor is swift/immediate actions. Both the swashbuckler and Magus use a lot of those, although you can tailor your build to other kinds of options as well.


Kurald, we need to talk about a certain feat chain that gives you 2 extra AoO and what the means when you can dish out Dirty Tricks. But now: Good Night.
I'd be interested in seeing how you want to do a dirty trick as an opportunity attack, because this isn't normally possible (nor with the Quick Dirty Trick feat either).

[NightbringerGGZ]

If combat tricks and stamina are from Pathfinder Unchained, then sadly that's off the table, by explicit word of the DM. (And after I had my library order three copies of the book….) As for Arcane Deeds, anything requiring careful analysis of many-layered errata probably won't fly either.:smallannoyed:

Ya, it was from Unchained. Combat tricks are additional abilities tacked onto nearly every combat feat. With the system you get an additional resource pool called Stamina which refreshes reasonably quickly after every combat. You use your stamina to power your combat tricks.

Amateur Swashbuckler is a feat which gives you Panache equal to your Cha, though you only start with 1 point per day. You also get to pick a single first-level Swashbuckler deed and use it, but the devs denied you access to Opportune Parry and Riposte with this feat. That basically gives you a choice of two deeds, neither of which are impressive. The Combat Trick for the feat is that you get to spend either Panache or Stamina to power your deeds and you get to pick a second 1st level deed. With this you have access to the ability you really want form the first-level deeds.

I would seriously just look up the version of Arcane Deeds that's in the books and ask your GM if you can use that instead of the version from the recent errata. As a GM and a player who's been involved in Pathfinder for many years now I've come to the conclusion that they the developers went temporarily insane last year.

[Florian]

…guess I won't be getting any actual build details, then.

:smallannoyed:

I was serious about the time of day and me going to bed ;)

The basic build uses the Kitsune Style feat chain up to Kitsune Vengeance and supplements that with Combat Reflexes and Fencing Grace (for Dex2DMG). Necessary Arcana are Flamboyant and Maneuver Mastery.
The one level Swashbuckler dip provides the means to get Dex2DMG quicker than the usual Magus and OPaP gives the AoO trigger you would otherwise lack. Kitsune Vengeance allows AoO to be converted to Dirty Trick attempts.

Too feat-intensive to be easily combined with the regular Shock Magus, but works well with Hexcrafter builds.

[Kurald Galain]

OPaP gives the AoO trigger you would otherwise lack.
Parry doesn't make enemies provoke more AoOs, it lets you parry things instead of an AoO. So that combo doesn't actually work.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by NightbringerGGZ
Combat tricks are additional abilities tacked onto nearly every combat feat….

Thanks for explaining this in detail, I appreciate it. You're very good at presenting this information clearly, especially for a still-new Pathfinder player. Sadly Unchained is disallowed for now, but I'll keep all this in mind.

As for Arcane Deed, I don't have the ACG in hardcopy and can't really follow the errata on the PFSRD, so I'll probably have to let that one go for now.


Originally Posted by Florian
The basic build uses the Kitsune Style feat chain up to Kitsune Vengeance and supplements that with Combat Reflexes and Fencing Grace (for Dex2DMG).

My DM has expressly disallowed the Dirty Tactics Toolbox, so the kitsune elements of that build are a no-go. Fencing Grace on its own is one of my top choices for a first-level feat. (Not Slashing Grace, as I'd earlier mentioned…got them confused.)

[ghanjrho]

Thanks for explaining this in detail, I appreciate it. You're very good at presenting this information clearly, especially for a still-new Pathfinder player. Sadly Unchained is disallowed for now, but I'll keep all this in mind.

As for Arcane Deed, I don't have the ACG in hardcopy and can't really follow the errata on the PFSRD, so I'll probably have to let that one go for now.



My DM has expressly disallowed the Dirty Tactics Toolbox, so the kitsune elements of that build are a no-go. Fencing Grace on its own is one of my top choices for a first-level feat. (Not Slashing Grace, as I'd earlier mentioned…got them confused.)

Arcane Deed (Ex): When a magus takes this arcana, he can pick any one deed from the swashbuckler class feature as long as that deed can be used by a swashbuckler of his magus level. The magus can use that deed by using points from his arcane pool as the panache points required for that deed. A magus can take this arcana multiple times, each time gaining a new deed. The magus must have the flamboyant arcana (see below) to select this arcana.

The original, hardback version. The errata states that even if you acquire a panache pool from other sources, you are not treated as having at least one point of panache in your pool for the purposes of deeds selected with arcane deed, and you always have an effective swashbuckler level of zero.

Which makes the only deeds worth taking, and by that I mean deeds that are NOT only active when you have at least one point of panache and do NOT base their effects on your swashbuckler level:

Targeted Strike (7th)
Bleeding Wound (11th)
Dizzying Defense (15th)
Cheat Death (19th)
Deadly Stab(19th)
Stunning Stab(19th)

So yeah. Kinda worthless now.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Thanks for explaining this in detail, I appreciate it. You're very good at presenting this information clearly, especially for a still-new Pathfinder player. Sadly Unchained is disallowed for now, but I'll keep all this in mind.

As for Arcane Deed, I don't have the ACG in hardcopy and can't really follow the errata on the PFSRD, so I'll probably have to let that one go for now.

Thank you for the compliment. Luckily ghanjrho posted the older rules, and if you like I can probably get a screenshot of the page in which they were printed for you to show your GM. I would strongly advise against the swashbuckling deeds if you use the errata version.

To answer your original question though, a one level dip into Swashbuckler is perfectly fine. It isn't the most optimized option as you do lose a level of Magus for spell-casting progression, but there is a trait which increases your effective caster level if you're worried about having 4d6 Shocking Grasps at 5th level instead of 5d6 ones.

Alternatively, if your primary interest is getting Fencing Grace as early as possible, you could take a look at the Kensai archetype. This archetype gives you Weapon Focus for free, and as a Human you could qualify for Fencing Grace at first level. Really look over the archetype though, as it does delay your spell casting somewhat. I've played a Kensai before however and had a ton of fun with that character.