OOTS #1023 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Fuzzypickles

2016-02-12, 12:43 PM

eilandesq

2016-02-12, 12:45 PM

Veldrina just said in this strip that the spell locking them in blocks Sending. She will only use it if the vote resolves and the spell is lifted.

Oops, missed that line. OK, that makes sense.

Does V. know Sending? He probably doesn't know any of the dwarven leaders, but someone could either provide a solid description of a dwarven leader (which worked for the cleric of Loki contacting Durkon earlier), or could contact his mentor in the elven homeland to relay a warning to the dwarves.

Jett Midknight

2016-02-12, 12:47 PM

This is why I like Roy. He is a man that knows when things are serious, you don't joke around

Peelee

2016-02-12, 12:48 PM

I don't think the vampire cleric needs to worry about her Protection from Daylight running out, because damn, that was dark.

Lord Torath

2016-02-12, 12:48 PM

Thoughtful lines from Roy, as always.

And an important role for Veldrina! That will keep her happy (well, relatively) until V shows up with Lil' Whiskers.

nogall

2016-02-12, 12:50 PM

Next: Roy finds Belkar...

a) alive and fighting?

b) alive and having won the fight?

c) dying?

d) dead?

e) some other stuff

underclerk

2016-02-12, 12:53 PM

Why not have a bunch of chaotic good clerics smite the vampire :D

warmachine

2016-02-12, 12:53 PM

Surely the Mechane can't get to the Dwarven kingdoms quickly.

themunck

2016-02-12, 01:02 PM

Surely the Mechane can't get to the Dwarven kingdoms quickly.

We know for a fact it an move faster if the plot requires it, so it always arrives just in the nick of time.

Emperordaniel

2016-02-12, 01:05 PM

So long, farewell, auf wiedehrsen, adieu...

I totally botched up my spelling, didn't I?

DaOldeWolf

2016-02-12, 01:10 PM

I hope this ends up as a Chekov of some kind. :smallsmile:

Doug Lampert

2016-02-12, 01:14 PM

I hope this ends up as a Chekov of some kind. :smallsmile:

Book ends, and either right before or right after that Roy gets the sending, which is their signal to head for the last gate and the final book.

EricS53

2016-02-12, 01:16 PM

Roy already has her feeling sad, so it'll only be a little worse once V flies in with wiskers almost dead.

8BitNinja

2016-02-12, 01:17 PM

I hope this ends up as a Chekov of some kind. :smallsmile:

No one can pick up this Gun of Chekov

It's kind of heavy

rman

2016-02-12, 01:18 PM

OK, if Sending works, there's no real reason at this point for one (or many) of the "no" clerics not to use it to contact the dwarven leaders to warn them of the plot to Dominate them.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html

Official order of Cleric of Odin - All who have a formal role here shall remain sequestered. No attendee shall pass through this halls arches until this issue is resolved.

Using the rule of worst case for OOTS, Durkula is able to renounce his role as HPoH and leave. None of the remaining clerics who have a formal role can use sending as it violates the sequestered rule. Durkula's rule bending also applies to Roy as he no longer has a formal role he is allowed to leave.
Strictly speaking Roy has to leave other than passing through the arches.

Psyren

2016-02-12, 01:18 PM

Damn. I knew Veldrina would get written out of the Order but was still holding out a slim hope anyway.

So now they're going after Team Evil AND Team Hel, and are still down a cleric. Fantastic :smallfrown:

Tentreto

2016-02-12, 01:18 PM

Slightly surprised the Dwarf king didn't help to ensure neutrality, but fair enough. hopefully Belkar won't be left behind.

Syncrogti

2016-02-12, 01:21 PM

Nicely done.

eilandesq

2016-02-12, 01:22 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1016.html

Official order of Cleric of Odin - All who have a formal role here shall remain sequestered. No attendee shall pass through this halls arches until this issue is resolved.

Using the rule of worst case for OOTS, Durkula is able to renounce his role as HPoH and leave. None of the remaining clerics who have a formal role can use sending as it violates the sequestered rule. Durkula's rule bending also applies to Roy as he no longer has a formal role he is allowed to leave.
Strictly speaking Roy has to leave other than passing through the arches.

And at a guess, none of the high priests used another cleric as one of their bodyguards, or they could pull the resignation and appointment trick and leave too (by a window, if necessary).

8BitNinja

2016-02-12, 01:38 PM

Why were the bodyguards allowed to leave when the Priests clearly stated

http://www.icge.co.uk/languagesciencesblog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/you_shall_not_pass1.jpg

Havelocke

2016-02-12, 01:39 PM

Super dark note at the end there, but this whole story became more than a running gag after the first dungeon. Roy, grab Belkar, and get your team to the Dwarven land ASAP, you have a world to save!

GAAD

2016-02-12, 01:48 PM

Veldrina is adorable when she's depressed.

Peelee

2016-02-12, 01:49 PM

Why were the bodyguards allowed to leave when the Priests clearly stated[snip]

....because the high priest actually said that all who had a formal role would remain. Which means Roy - who is no longer a bodyguard, as has been explicitly said in the last comic - is now allowed to leave.

No other bodyguards have left.

Killer Angel

2016-02-12, 01:56 PM

Speaking about punchline-friendly characters... I wonder if in the next strip we'll see Belkar again.

Markozeta

2016-02-12, 01:58 PM

Roy already has her feeling sad, so it'll only be a little worse once V flies in with whiskers almost dead.

This - this makes it even worse.

Nemeean_lion

2016-02-12, 02:07 PM

I guess this is goodbye Veldrina.

*sighs*

Bulldog Psion

2016-02-12, 02:08 PM

Veldrina continues to be one of the comic's most charming characters.

(Mind you, Haley's still my favorite character, but I'm sad to see our favorite absent-minded elf's time in the narrative nearly up.)

IDrankWHAT

2016-02-12, 02:19 PM

Wow, heavy. And I would like to add that this comic has been pretty dark since right around or before the fall of Azure City. Or immediately afterwards. The humor has been there but the overall feel of it (well, to me anyway) has been pretty dark to begin with. But that's just my opinion though

DaggerPen

2016-02-12, 02:19 PM

Oof, that's heavy... good thinking on Roy's part, though, especially given some of the gods represented here. (On the plus side, at least, should Loki pull any shenanigans, it'll be for the No side.)

I'm actually a little surprised none of the Yes clerics decided to try to attack Roy. Maybe there's a rule about letting those who've lost official status leave so no one turns on someone else after the Moot is over while they're still all packing up? That or they don't want another brawl by proxy like they had over the vamps.

8BitNinja

2016-02-12, 02:20 PM

Rift_Wolf

2016-02-12, 02:32 PM

Dang Roy, that penultimate panel was so heavy the monks lost all their bonuses...

Ruck

2016-02-12, 02:37 PM

Next: Roy finds Belkar...

a) alive and fighting?

b) alive and having won the fight?

c) dying?

d) dead?

e) some other stuff

I'm definitely wondering whether Roy or Vaarsuvius finds Belkar fighting the goliath vampire first.

Rift_Wolf

2016-02-12, 02:39 PM

I'm actually a little surprised none of the Yes clerics decided to try to attack Roy. Maybe there's a rule about letting those who've lost official status leave so no one turns on someone else after the Moot is over while they're still all packing up? That or they don't want another brawl by proxy like they had over the vamps.

They've just witnessed him kicking the tar out of a Cleric who'd planned for that fight to happen (why else prepare Antilife shield?). What's more, Roy hasn't got a scratch on him due to an as-yet-unexplained superpower which also dispelled HpoHs Hel's Might. Assuming you aren't giving every cleric in that room Codzilla status, do you think you could beat him one on one?

Anarion

2016-02-12, 02:44 PM

I hope Roy and V don't miss each other coming and going. The party got more than a little scattered in this temple.

Markozeta

2016-02-12, 02:45 PM

To add to the feels, compare to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0990.html. Talk about resolution.

Ruck

2016-02-12, 03:00 PM

I hope Roy and V don't miss each other coming and going. The party got more than a little scattered in this temple.

Is there more than one entrance? Not from what I've seen.

Deliverance

2016-02-12, 03:09 PM

Poor Veldrina. Her goddess is so minor that she can only supply a bugged version of sending. :smalltongue:

littlebum2002

2016-02-12, 03:12 PM

Awww, he misses Belkar

Ruck

2016-02-12, 03:13 PM

Poor Veldrina. Her goddess is so minor that she can only supply a bugged version of sending. :smalltongue:

"Bugged"? How do you figure?

Yendor

2016-02-12, 03:13 PM

Poor Veldrina. Her goddess is so minor that she can only supply a bugged version of sending. :smalltongue:

I'm not sure if you missed the joke here or not.

IDrankWHAT

2016-02-12, 03:21 PM

I'm definitely wondering whether Roy or Vaarsuvius finds Belkar fighting the goliath vampire first.

Either way, I do believe that vampire is going to either be disintegrated or cleft in twain with a mighty green light! (Place your bets folks!)

Deliverance

2016-02-12, 03:34 PM

I'm not sure if you missed the joke here or not.
Read my line again and consider the chosen smiley.

I didn't. But I was greatly amused by the idea that Veldrina might think that the reason she got no feedback was because of a defective spell.

AvangionQ

2016-02-12, 03:37 PM

Not a one of those high clerics moves or changes their expressions one bit between the panels ... their role is done.

ti'esar

2016-02-12, 03:40 PM

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Veldrina_zpsnou9m7lm.png I use it all the time to contact the editors of metaphysics journals and point out basic math errors. I'm not sure the reply function works properly, though. They never seem to thank me for it.

...I probably laughed harder at this than I should have. I'm going to miss Veldrina.

dtilque

2016-02-12, 03:44 PM

But... Veldrina is one of dem punchline-friendly characters as well! :smallfrown:

Wrong kind of humor. She says things that are funny. She doesn't get snark from Roy.

Does V. know Sending? He probably doesn't know any of the dwarven leaders, but someone could either provide a solid description of a dwarven leader (which worked for the cleric of Loki contacting Durkon earlier), or could contact his mentor in the elven homeland to relay a warning to the dwarves.

He knows Sending. He keeps trying to Send to Serini, but never gets a reply. Perhaps the reply function on his is also broken...

Either he doesn't get a description or the description he gets is of someone who is no longer on the Dwarven Council (deceased, perhaps) so it doesn't work. At any rate, nothing is going to let them short circuit having to make a dash to Dwarven Lands to try to prevent Doomsday. That's not how these plots work.

Ruck

2016-02-12, 03:53 PM

Ooh, this gives me an idea.

Given what friends Roy and Durkon are, has Durkon ever described his mother, or any of the other dwarves, in detail enough to Roy for Roy to describe her / them for Vaarsuvius for a sending? If the Cleric of Loki can contact Durkon based on little more than "grumpy dwarf with a beard," this doesn't seem that far-fetched.

I still think the Order would head to Dwarven lands, but getting them a warning may make the difference-- although given the casting time of Sending, I'm not confident they could reach the dwarves before the vampires get there, although perhaps before they reached the elders.

Jasdoif

2016-02-12, 03:54 PM

Either he doesn't get a description or the description he gets is of someone who is no longer on the Dwarven Council (deceased, perhaps) so it doesn't work. At any rate, nothing is going to let them short circuit having to make a dash to Dwarven Lands to try to prevent Doomsday. That's not how these plots work.Or the warning doesn't give them adequate knowledge to prepare, or they see no reason to trust Vaarsuvius, or the person they contact has already been dominated....or maybe HPoH and retinue simply represent a threat the targeted dwarves can't actually repel. Or, possibly more likely, Roy doesn't think a simple warning is sufficient, and/or intends to get Durkon back rather than hope OotS can deal with Xykon without a high-level cleric. There are all sorts of ways a Sending spell would fail to obviate a trip.

Jaxzan Proditor

2016-02-12, 04:01 PM

Well, it is a pity that the Godsmoot can't be resolved, bu it will be fun to have our heroes go to confront The High Priest of Hel. I kind of hope that now that we have finished this part of the story we can see what Team Evil is up too.

happycrow

2016-02-12, 04:09 PM

He can perform The Spell-Splinter and has that, um, to steal, "thousand-fahrenheit-hot-metal-light-behind-his-eyes invincible" scary green glowy thing going on, and nobody knows what the rule is for that...yeah, in the absence of explicit orders to the contrary, I'd all "seeya," too.

Even the priestess of Freya is frowning. Possibly at such a hunk leaving.

fishguy

2016-02-12, 04:14 PM

A comedic foil, a comedic foil, my kingdom for a comedic foil.

PallentisLunam

2016-02-12, 04:22 PM

Great comic!

Want Belkar!!

Unkillable_Cat

2016-02-12, 04:23 PM

This comic is just The Giant hedging his bet.

According to a reliable source

Ghostbusters 2

the world will end on February 14th, 2016.

This Sunday.

If the world isn't here on Monday, at least we all die knowing how OOTS drew to a close. ("The Gods ended the world. The End.")

:smalltongue:

137beth

2016-02-12, 04:25 PM

Dang, that's a good strip. At least the Order still has an airship which can arrive just in the nick of time:smallbiggrin:

IDrankWHAT

2016-02-12, 04:27 PM

Cirin

2016-02-12, 04:31 PM

Damn. I knew Veldrina would get written out of the Order but was still holding out a slim hope anyway.

Yeah, I know she was only supposed to be a cameo appearance. . .but she would have made an awesome replacement Cleric (Favored Soul, whatever) for the Order.

ChillerInstinct

2016-02-12, 05:44 PM

Yeah, I know she was only supposed to be a cameo appearance. . .but she would have made an awesome replacement Cleric (Favored Soul, whatever) for the Order.

Yeah, which reminds me, the Order's really going to be lacking in the healing department this book. Elan's got some healing spells and Haley has her new wands but with Durkon gone until, inevitably, the climax, and Vel not being able to tag along, that's going to be rough. Hopefully the Mechane's supply of potions is plentiful, because they're definitely going to need them.

...Or they could pick up a temporary cleric at the nearest Dwarven tavern. :P Now that they didn't have to spend that gold on a Resurrection, they might be able to afford a temp.

Still, I doubt this is the last we'll see of Veldrina. If nothing else, once the vote's settled and she's free to leave it would make a lot of sense for Wrecan and her to try to play the role of backup against Xykon, assuming she can find a way to get there in time.

Now, the sixteen-thousand gold piece question... will V or Roy be the first one to find the Goliath?

Gruffe

2016-02-12, 05:45 PM

(Favored Soul, whatever).

I still read Flavoured Soul every time I read that. Not sure what that says about my mind :smallbiggrin:

LunarDrop

2016-02-12, 05:52 PM

I don't think the vampire cleric needs to worry about her Protection from Daylight running out, because damn, that was dark.

That was beautiful. Thank you.

Ruck

2016-02-12, 06:52 PM

I still read Flavoured Soul every time I read that. Not sure what that says about my mind :smallbiggrin:

Perhaps Veldrina is the light seasoning of nutmeg (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) the Order of the Stick has needed all along.

Jay R

2016-02-12, 07:39 PM

IamWeasel

2016-02-12, 07:56 PM

As always, thank you, Giant.

I am going to be shocked most of the way going here, because even if the Mechane always arrives in the nick of time, I don't see how it catches up to a teleport.

Here is my theory on Roy hulking out. The sword has a lifedrinking property that only needs to activate when Roy is injured. Once he was back to full health (and levels) it didn't need that function any more.

Max™

2016-02-12, 07:58 PM

Sir Roy Greenhilt the Buzz of Killington.

Wildroses

2016-02-12, 09:22 PM

Considering nobody well teleport them and the Order have to arrive way after Team Vampire, I'd say that Roy is only going to arrive in the Dwarven Homelands after all the Death and Destruction has begun. Considering Durkula was trying to take as many vampires with him as safely possible, I'm thinking his plan might be to just do a mass turning of everyone they can get their hands on, like what happened to the Creed, so the people around Dwarven Elders are easily overwhelmed, allowing domination to occur easily. Another advantage of this plan is that Durkula also gets revenge on the people who exiled him. I really wish the old High Priest of Thor wasn't two years dead so he could see how thoroughly he has screwed up.

One advantage of the Godsmoot arc wrapping up is all the rules lawyers so eager to point out mistakes they don't always read the comic properly or wait for future comics to explain things are going to have to find something else to complain about. I'm not taking a jab at anyone particular in this thread or any threads currently active, it's something that has been steadily annoying me for the last few months. I've never known a community with so many nitpickers.

dtilque

2016-02-12, 09:44 PM

I love the fact that Roy took the fact that he's the straight man who never delivers the punchline, and turned that into the punchline.

What do you mean Roy "never delivers the punchline"? Didn't he just do that in the previous strip, among many others?

Here is my theory on Roy hulking out. The sword has a lifedrinking property that only needs to activate when Roy is injured. Once he was back to full health (and levels) it didn't need that function any more.

I think you mean deathdrinking, not lifedrinking. A lifedrinker, such as a vampire, converts the positive energy of a living being into negative energy. The green energy effect seems to have done the opposite and converted some of Dukula's negative energy to positive energy, thus undoing the energy draining slams Roy took earlier. And this would explain why Durkula's injuries do not seem to be healing as fast as they usually do for vampires.

But this effect doesn't happen every time Roy fights an undead while injured. It didn't do so when Roy fought Xykon on the vampire dragon. Could Xykon have a defence against it?

Gusion

2016-02-12, 10:41 PM

New comic is up.

Speaking of punchline characters, this is a great lead up to ... "And where IS that sidekick..."

Jay R

2016-02-12, 11:34 PM

I love the fact that Roy took the fact that he's the straight man who never delivers the punchline, and turned that into the punchline.

Combined with the seriousness of the lead-in, this really puts the punch in punchline.
What do you mean Roy "never delivers the punchline"? Didn't he just do that in the previous strip, among many others?

Yes, he did. Nonetheless, he used the fact (less than absolute though it may be) that he's the straight man who never delivers the punchline, and turned that into the punchline.

RatElemental

2016-02-13, 12:36 AM

I don't think the vampire cleric needs to worry about her Protection from Daylight running out, because damn, that was dark.

I... kinda want to sig that.

Breccia

2016-02-13, 12:47 AM

"There is no punchline" as a punchline. Well played.

Malfarian

2016-02-13, 12:56 AM

For a long time I assumed Durkula would vamp Belkar, that idea went out the window, but perhaps the outside one could, that would then allow Belkar to take no more breathes and stick around, perhaps we'll find him next?

DaggerPen

2016-02-13, 01:12 AM

They've just witnessed him kicking the tar out of a Cleric who'd planned for that fight to happen (why else prepare Antilife shield?). What's more, Roy hasn't got a scratch on him due to an as-yet-unexplained superpower which also dispelled HpoHs Hel's Might. Assuming you aren't giving every cleric in that room Codzilla status, do you think you could beat him one on one?

Well, no, but the Godsmoot rules DO mean that he can't attack back or he'll have every other cleric try to smite him. Those are better odds... but I suppose not quite sufficient to gamble on it and risk facing a very Displeased Deity, so. Fair point.

Poor Veldrina. Her goddess is so minor that she can only supply a bugged version of sending. :smalltongue:

I laughed.

I still read Flavoured Soul every time I read that. Not sure what that says about my mind :smallbiggrin:

I say lemon for her, definitely. :p

You may think that's some type of stealth reference but actually I'm just synesthetic.

Lorkas

2016-02-13, 01:17 AM

Here is my theory on Roy hulking out. The sword has a lifedrinking property that only needs to activate when Roy is injured. Once he was back to full health (and levels) it didn't need that function any more.

His eyes lit up and he got the green hulk aura when he threw his sword in 1019 also though, and he was uninjured then. It seems to me that it's more about emotion or desperation than physical/magical injury.

Silferdrake

2016-02-13, 01:52 AM

Excellent strip as usual. I guess it's off to the dwarven lands then. I'd be happy if we get to see some more of Veldrina again sometime - really liked her as a character. I hope her kickstarter were happy with the way she was portraited as well.

Random Poster

2016-02-13, 03:18 AM

Not a one of those high clerics moves or changes their expressions one bit between the panels ... their role is done.

Or maybe Rich just didn't want to spend any time fiddling with such details. I mean, the previous strip took a week to make while this one took four days, but could probably easily have taken a day more if he hadn't copypasted panel 4 straight from panel 2 (apart from Roy's head, of course).

Killer Angel

2016-02-13, 06:09 AM

Well, it is a pity that the Godsmoot can't be resolved,

It's a pity that you are a GOD, and you must adhere to democracy... :smalltongue:

HandofShadows

2016-02-13, 08:11 AM

Roy you are so good and yet do not know it. :smallcool:

Reboot

2016-02-13, 09:44 AM

Roy you are so good and yet do not know it. :smallcool:

Sure he does - he got into Celestia, didn't he? ;)

Speaking of which - Roy, didn't you once brag to a deva about getting punchlines? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

JSSheridan

2016-02-13, 10:23 AM

Thanks Giant!

jere7my

2016-02-13, 12:03 PM

Or maybe Rich just didn't want to spend any time fiddling with such details. I mean, the previous strip took a week to make while this one took four days, but could probably easily have taken a day more if he hadn't copypasted panel 4 straight from panel 2 (apart from Roy's head, of course).

That's the joke. It's the visual equivalent of crickets chirping.

Shining Wrath

2016-02-13, 01:07 PM

Vampire Hunter R, at your service! And yes, that's heavy.

So loose threads tied up; OotS leaves Moot without dozens of high priests who will help them swat Xykon; Veldrina, adorably, has an off-screen mission that also makes Wrecan staying with her a logical thing.

Now, where is Belkar, the foreshadowed "punchline friendly character"? Will Roy leave without him, believing him dead? Or find him dead on the porch? Or find him with V coming in?

Durandal_1707

2016-02-13, 01:11 PM

No one can pick up this Gun of Chekov

It's kind of heavy
Ve inwented that gun, you know. In Russia!

Rogar Demonblud

2016-02-13, 01:23 PM

But this effect doesn't happen every time Roy fights an undead while injured. It didn't do so when Roy fought Xykon on the vampire dragon. Could Xykon have a defence against it?

We know from Start of Darkness that he has a Ring of Positive Energy Protection or something that basically works the same.

Ruck

2016-02-13, 04:26 PM

I continue to get a kick out of how little the High Priest of Beldar (and possibly Beldar himself) understand what's going on.

Bobblit

2016-02-13, 05:14 PM

Aw, poor Veldrina is quite innocent.

I didn't find that last lines so heavy, actually. And I'm impressed that it takes more than the end of the world to stop Roy from being considerate. :smallamused:

dtilque

2016-02-13, 06:27 PM

We know from Start of Darkness that he has a Ring of Positive Energy Protection or something that basically works the same.

But he should have lost all his possessions here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html). I suppose he could have acquired another one, though.

PS I got chewed out by a junior mod for posting something even less spoilerific about one of the sequels not too long ago. Don't be surprised if you get the same.

Keltest

2016-02-13, 06:37 PM

But he should have lost all his possessions here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0115.html). I suppose he could have acquired another one, though.

PS I got chewed out by a junior mod for posting something even less spoilerific about one of the sequels not too long ago. Don't be surprised if you get the same.

Xykon has indeed been spending months doing nothing but making magic items. He will pretty much have immunities as the plot demands at this point.

hroþila

2016-02-13, 06:59 PM

Keltest

2016-02-13, 07:05 PM

Xykon didnt lose Dorukan's headband, though. He could still have the same ring we saw in SoD, because OotS does funny things with a character's inventory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0904.html).

Funny things like characters without arrows still not having arrows? :smallconfused:

We know Haley does have a million quivers, we just don't see them, presumably because Rich doesn't feel like drawing them every scene Haley is in, the same with her bags of holding.

hroþila

2016-02-13, 07:08 PM

Keltest

2016-02-13, 07:10 PM

The implication IMO is that Haley doesn't need to keep track of that kind of stuff. She just owns those quivers, so they'll be there for her no matter what. Regardless, that Xykon still had Dorukan's headband is a fact, so feel free to disregard the example.

Im pretty sure the joke is just that Haley doesn't have a visible quiver and Roy stops to think about it. When we see some of her inventory, we do in fact see stuff like potions, quivers of arrows, and coinage, so they are there, even if we don't see them.

Shining Wrath

2016-02-13, 07:16 PM

OK, if Sending works, there's no real reason at this point for one (or many) of the "no" clerics not to use it to contact the dwarven leaders to warn them of the plot to Dominate them. Which would stop this problem in its tracks, and should be a perfectly reasonable action within the rules given that *the vampires making the attack have no status at the Godsmoot and are intending to subvert the vote*.

Anyone see any holes in this reasoning?

Yes - that we know high level characters, especially clerics, are relatively rare in the OotSVerse - so forewarned may be forearmed, but forearmed may still get drained and turned into a vampire.

Considering nobody well teleport them and the Order have to arrive way after Team Vampire, I'd say that Roy is only going to arrive in the Dwarven Homelands after all the Death and Destruction has begun. Considering Durkula was trying to take as many vampires with him as safely possible, I'm thinking his plan might be to just do a mass turning of everyone they can get their hands on, like what happened to the Creed, so the people around Dwarven Elders are easily overwhelmed, allowing domination to occur easily. Another advantage of this plan is that Durkula also gets revenge on the people who exiled him. I really wish the old High Priest of Thor wasn't two years dead so he could see how thoroughly he has screwed up.

One advantage of the Godsmoot arc wrapping up is all the rules lawyers so eager to point out mistakes they don't always read the comic properly or wait for future comics to explain things are going to have to find something else to complain about. I'm not taking a jab at anyone particular in this thread or any threads currently active, it's something that has been steadily annoying me for the last few months. I've never known a community with so many nitpickers.

Yes, vampire apocalypse seems like the plan. On the other note, I assure you we are going to get lots of lengthy explanations for why the dwarves ought to be able to defeat Durkula without breaking a sweat.

Xykon has indeed been spending months doing nothing but making magic items. He will pretty much have immunities as the plot demands at this point.

It's not a Deus ex Machina when we know he complains that he can't spend more than 8 hours a day doing research and making stuff, so he has to amuse himself by torturing O Chul. Whose revenge I look forward to with anticipation.

hroþila

2016-02-13, 07:17 PM

Im pretty sure the joke is just that Haley doesn't have a visible quiver and Roy stops to think about it. When we see some of her inventory, we do in fact see stuff like potions, quivers of arrows, and coinage, so they are there, even if we don't see them.
Haley and Belkar imply that Roy would have been able to shoot more arrows if he hadn't stopped to think about it, i.e. regardless of whether or not he had a quiver (invisible or otherwise) on his person, because he'd be using Haley's bows with Haley's arrows and he didn't actually need to worry about such details as what's where. Similarly, Dorukan's headband and Xykon's Ring of Positive Energy Protection wouldn't have been lost because they're in Xykon's inventory even if, logically speaking, it all should have been destroyed along with his body.

Of course the quivers can be seen, along with the rest of the inventory, when they need to be shown, but then again, the same could be said about Dorukan's headband or, hypothetically, the ring.

Witty Username

2016-02-13, 08:22 PM

Well, now we know the vote can't change. Rich wouldn't end the world offscreen...right?

the vote is a tie at the moment, so presumably it will change.:smallamused:

TurboGhast

2016-02-13, 09:12 PM

the vote is a tie at the moment, so presumably it will change.:smallamused:

Yes, but any changes would probably occur onscreen, given the scale of the matter.

jere7my

2016-02-14, 01:26 AM

So... I did a thing. Don't ask why.

The first comic of this storyline (#947 Keep In Mind) was published at 12:39 PM on 3/31/2014. Or at least, that's when Rich posted the forum thread that it was up. I don't know if it's the same minute or not, BUT... we can assume there's a similar delay for any given strip.

Therefore, a few things are calculable.
-Pages of comic material per day, for example.
- Total time since the beginning of the story
- Average time per comic page.
- Estimate of when the next page should be expected by.

It has actually really helped me with the whole "checking for a new OOTS for often than is healthy for me" thing. But I figure that at least some people here are at least as obsessed as I am, and may be curious, thus the sharing of the following information:

As of #1023 - Last Call
Pages of online Book 6 content: 101
Percentage compared to BRIF Book length: 30.51%
Days of the new storyline: 683
In years, that's: 1.87
Average days per page: 6.7623
Estimated arrival of next comic...
If one page: 2/19/16 6:45 AM
If two pages: 2/26/16 1:03 AM
If 3 pages: 3/3/16 7:21 PM
(Obviously longer if introducing new elements, shorter if people are standing around, talking.)

And most importantly:

If Rich Burlew continues at this average for an online story as long as the BRIF book, when is it estimated to be completed?
A: May 18th, 2020, 8:12 AM

Someone get this man a Time Turner!

That's very nice, but the forum rules forbid discussion of the update schedule.

Morquard

2016-02-14, 06:03 AM

Im pretty sure the joke is just that Haley doesn't have a visible quiver and Roy stops to think about it. When we see some of her inventory, we do in fact see stuff like potions, quivers of arrows, and coinage, so they are there, even if we don't see them.

The joke is more that in D&D games, once you get past 2nd level nearly no GM is going to have you track arrows. "So how many arrows do you normally shoot before returning to town? Ok X amount? You have three times that on you? Ok you're good."
Their so cheap and easy to come by that it's simply assumed your character restocks when in town, and it saves a ton of bookkeeping.
It also means that if a player character shoots more arrows than they have, they just keep shooting, since they're still not keeping track of it, and just keep doing what they're doing.

Until they start thinking about it at least . "Hey wait a minute, I had 100 arrows, shoot 10 arrows per round and this fight's been going for 15 rounds now..." - "Oh, right, you're out of arrows then" And that's what Roy did.

Yes this isn't a game with a GM making rulings, but it's a world that runs on D&D rules. It's the same way how Blackwing disappeared when not needed.

Corian

2016-02-14, 07:23 AM

A thought I had... If the King of Dwarve's answer is tied to the council's, a domination attack on the council is indirectly an attack on the King of Dwarve's vote, isn't it? Maybe indirect attacks don't count? Or coercion does not count as an attack? I'd expect the rules to cover both of these.
Then I realized that, most likely, Durkula's attack won't count because he's no longer high priest of Hel, and can do what he wants (as much as Roy does at this point.)
Still, I'm curious if others had that thought about whether the rules should cover this issue.
Regards.

Kalirren

2016-02-14, 10:05 AM

What if the vote IS a Yes and the response is to speedrun Kraagor's gate to prove a point?

Seward

2016-02-14, 11:11 AM

Poor Veldrina. Her goddess is so minor that she can only supply a bugged version of sending. :smalltongue:

The problem is not in the spell. It's in the content. Or as we say in the IT business "The difficulty resides in the space between the monitor and the chair."

Seward

2016-02-14, 11:19 AM

But this effect doesn't happen every time Roy fights an undead while injured. It didn't do so when Roy fought Xykon on the vampire dragon. Could Xykon have a defence against it?

Roy only got one solid full attack in with the green glow before Xykon stopped screwing around and gave him a lesson in trying to solo an EL+6-8 encounter. Roy was not in the "Roy is also glowing green with green eyes" state. It was in fact the damage inflicted in that round got Xykon to take him seriously. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html

Clovis

2016-02-14, 12:19 PM

I don't think the vampire cleric needs to worry about her Protection from Daylight running out, because damn, that was dark.

Ouch! and to the point... :smalleek:

chrestomancy

2016-02-14, 02:30 PM

Next: Roy finds Belkar...

a) alive and fighting?

b) alive and having won the fight?

c) dying?

d) dead?

e) some other stuff

Sometimes, I wish there was a like button on this forum.

Burner28

2016-02-14, 02:45 PM

Didn't expect it to end in such a hearwarming moment.

chrestomancy

2016-02-14, 03:01 PM

Either way, I do believe that vampire is going to either be disintegrated or cleft in twain with a mighty green light! (Place your bets folks!)

I'm thinking a goliath vampire is basically two of Belkar's favoured enemies in one package. I'd not want to bet against the Shoeless God of War having this one unaided.

Bulldog Psion

2016-02-14, 04:10 PM

I'm thinking a goliath vampire is basically two of Belkar's favoured enemies in one package. I'd not want to bet against the Shoeless God of War having this one unaided.

He is unarmed, though.

Ruck

2016-02-14, 04:11 PM

He is unarmed, though.

He just has to find a rock. A halfling with a rock vs. a goliath? It practically writes itself!

ORione

2016-02-14, 05:21 PM

A thought I had... If the King of Dwarves answer is tied to the council's, a domination attack on the council is indirectly an attack on the King of Dwarves vote, isn't it? Maybe indirect attacks don't count? Or coercion does not count as an attack? I'd expect the rules to cover both of these.
Then I realized that, most likely, Durkula's attack won't count because he's no longer high priest of Hel, and can do what he wants (as much as Roy does at this point.)
Still, I'm curious if others had that thought about whether the rules should cover this issue.
Regards.

I doubt that the Godsmoot permits attacks on the Godsmoot as long as the attacks come from someone outside the Godsmoot. The problem is that the attack is indirectly an attack on Dvalin's vote. The council isn't part of the Godsmoot, and so not protected by its rules. Dvalin can vote based on the advice given by vampire-dominated dwarves if he wants.

Keltest

2016-02-14, 05:23 PM

I doubt that the Godsmoot permits attacks on the Godsmoot as long as the attacks come from someone outside the Godsmoot. The problem is that the attack is indirectly an attack on Dvalin's vote. The council isn't part of the Godsmoot, and so not protected by its rules. Dvalin can vote based on the advice given by vampire-dominated dwarves if he wants.

The thing is, the godsmoot rules don't apply to anyone not participating in the godsmoot. They can express their displeasure and the rules may even allow them to act on it, but rules cannot bind those outside the organization the rules apply to.

ORione

2016-02-14, 05:35 PM

The thing is, the godsmoot rules don't apply to anyone not participating in the godsmoot. They can express their displeasure and the rules may even allow them to act on it, but rules cannot bind those outside the organization the rules apply to.

Are you trying to disagree with me? Because I don't see how this contradicts anything I said.

Keltest

2016-02-14, 05:41 PM

Are you trying to disagree with me? Because I don't see how this contradicts anything I said.

I saw a comment and chimed in with my own input. The godsmoot cant say "no, vampires outside of out sphere of influence, you cannot go after these dwarves also outside of our sphere of influence." Or rather, the vampires are not under any obligation to comply.

ORione

2016-02-14, 05:54 PM

Shining Wrath

2016-02-14, 07:38 PM

I saw a comment and chimed in with my own input. The godsmoot cant say "no, vampires outside of out sphere of influence, you cannot go after these dwarves also outside of our sphere of influence." Or rather, the vampires are not under any obligation to comply.

I wasn't saying that the vampires were obligated to not interfere with the council. I was saying that the high priests were not obligated to interfere with the vampires interfering with the council.

What we do not know is what rules the Godsmoot has gainst a dominated or otherwise enchanted person voting. Given Loki, I'm sure it's been tried before in the history of the world. Will those rules be general enough to apply to enchanting the persons a voter is going to ask for advice? Probably not, as Hel thinks this will work. So there's likely no rule requiring anyone to try to stop Hel's minions from using Dominate on the dwarven elders, or to ignore the corrupt vote. If the world survives, such rules will be a likely outcome, furthering the careers of Godsmoot lawyers.

I still wonder what Odin meant by "worlds within worlds and yarn winding yarn". I think there's still a major Snarl related plot twist yet to drop, and it may snarl Hel's plans.

Keltest

2016-02-14, 07:49 PM

What we do not know is what rules the Godsmoot has gainst a dominated or otherwise enchanted person voting. Given Loki, I'm sure it's been tried before in the history of the world. Will those rules be general enough to apply to enchanting the persons a voter is going to ask for advice? Probably not, as Hel thinks this will work. So there's likely no rule requiring anyone to try to stop Hel's minions from using Dominate on the dwarven elders, or to ignore the corrupt vote. If the world survives, such rules will be a likely outcome, furthering the careers of Godsmoot lawyers.

I still wonder what Odin meant by "worlds within worlds and yarn winding yarn". I think there's still a major Snarl related plot twist yet to drop, and it may snarl Hel's plans.

Regardless of what rules the godsmoot has about coercing another voter, neither the vampires nor the dwarven elders are part of the godsmoot and therefore not under its jurisdiction. How Dvalin comes to his decision is his own business.

Corian

2016-02-14, 08:02 PM

Thank you three, ORione, Keltest and Shining Wrath for chiming in to my speculation. What you say sounds quite sensible: Durkula's action is outside the council's jurisdiction, and it's Dvalin's choice how he'd react to it. Actually, I could see Dvalin deciding that a dominated council's advice is not worthy of consideration after the fact, which is something that Hel could easily miss. I doubt that would be the storytelling angle we'll get, but it's an angle we could get in a sensible world. (Then I'd also expect Dvalin to be Literal Lawful, I wonder why...)
Cheers!

Rogar Demonblud

2016-02-14, 08:05 PM

Dvalin has already revealed that he has sworn an oath to obey the council no matter what. The dwarves have apparently cornered the market in Lawful Stupid.

Gift Jeraff

2016-02-14, 09:40 PM

I hope none of the discussion threads are de-stickied from this point on. :smallsmile:

ti'esar

2016-02-14, 09:49 PM

Dvalin has already revealed that he has sworn an oath to obey the council no matter what. The dwarves have apparently cornered the market in Lawful Stupid.

I dunno, I feel like the High Priest of Tyr beat them to it.

Peelee

2016-02-14, 10:30 PM

Dvalin has already revealed that he has sworn an oath to obey the council no matter what. The dwarves have apparently cornered the market in Lawful Stupid.

Yeah! He uses his deific powers, which were bestowed upon him by the loyalty and belief of nearly all dwarves, to give those dwarves themselves a say in celestial matters that concern them. And now there's a very specific and incredibly rare way that this can be exploited.

Imean, how dumb does the guy have to be?

gia

2016-02-15, 12:13 AM

DaggerPen

2016-02-15, 12:21 AM

I dont see why "No" matters, yes doesnt matter because he cant control what happens after Yes, and he has the mission to stop xykon if yes is not voted (regardless of no or vote still pending), technically he still has to stop xykon if yes is voted, except it wont matter.

"No" matters because if the vote resolves to "No" halfway to the dwarven lands, there's a very real argument to be made for going after Xykon then and there, even short a cleric, rather than continuing to chase down the guy pretending to be Durkon.

JoeyTheNeko

2016-02-15, 12:51 AM

well roy is now on the move.

will he find out what belkar is up to? actually, belkar was last seen fighting vampires, is he still okay?

goodpeople25

2016-02-15, 02:22 AM

Yeah! He uses his deific powers, which were bestowed upon him by the loyalty and belief of nearly all dwarves, to give those dwarves themselves a say in celestial matters that concern them. And now there's a very specific and incredibly rare way that this can be exploited.

Imean, how dumb does the guy have to be?

Yeah this is what gets me, especially since a good number of people on this forum were upset at the gods making this vote at all, and he is the one god consulting mortal representatives , but gets hit with the lawful stupid accusations.

assuming you are bieng sarcastic in the way i think, :smallsmile: i kinda suck at sarcasm

Spoonshape

2016-02-15, 05:32 AM

My prediction - They will get Durkon back (because we want him to be in the conclusion) but will be able to somehow forestall Dvalin from making a decision. Possibly just ask him to stall the vote of the dwarven council somehow and then the Order of the stick goes off to preempt the decision by confronting Xyclon at the last snarl gate.

It neatly removes any possibility of the Gods being able to do a Deus ex machine (where logically they would absolutely be involved) and puts the resolution squarely on the orders shoulders.

The only thing I am wondering is which side Durkon will be on - I can't see who can resurrect him to be back in the order in time for the big finale.

TuringTest

2016-02-15, 08:11 AM

Lovely, and none of the comedians on scene...

Because sometimes its not a comedy.

FWIW, I find this particular lack of punchline hilarious in its own way. "You know, I usually have a few punchline-friendly characters around to keep things light-hearted, sorry for failing you today..." It gives me giggles :smallbiggrin:

Quibblicious

2016-02-15, 10:49 AM

The implication IMO is that Haley doesn't need to keep track of that kind of stuff. She just owns those quivers, so they'll be there for her no matter what. Regardless, that Xykon still had Dorukan's headband is a fact, so feel free to disregard the example.

Hmmmm... that could explain why they can't contact Serini. Complete aside, but if Xykon wanted to invoke the cloister effect before assaulting the last gate, to prevent them from calling for help, that could do it.

Gift Jeraff

2016-02-15, 11:06 AM

They've been trying to contact Serini well before Xykon left for Kraagor's Tomb (Page 2, Panel 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)). Cloister also still allows for communication from within the affected area. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

Kish

2016-02-15, 11:33 AM

FWIW, I find this particular lack of punchline hilarious in its own way. "You know, I usually have a few punchline-friendly characters around to keep things light-hearted, sorry for failing you today..." It gives me giggles :smallbiggrin:
Yes, this. The punchline is the fourth-wall breaking exchange in the last panel.

Rogar Demonblud

2016-02-15, 12:02 PM

Yeah this is what gets me, especially since a good number of people on this forum were upset at the gods making this vote at all, and he is the one god consulting mortal representatives , but gets hit with the lawful stupid accusations.

assuming you are bieng sarcastic in the way i think, :smallsmile: i kinda suck at sarcasm

No sarcasm involved. Yes, Dvalin will consult others. Then he'll do exactly what they tell him, despite the fact that 9/10s of them have swirly eyes.

Peelee

2016-02-15, 02:38 PM

No sarcasm involved. Yes, Dvalin will consult others. Then he'll do exactly what they tell him, despite the fact that 9/10s of them have swirly eyes.

Assuming he meant me, sarcasm very much involved. If you'll forgive me, I'll hold off on calling something stupid until i see it go down in the exact way you describe.

Keltest

2016-02-15, 02:41 PM

Assuming he meant me, sarcasm very much involved. If you'll forgive me, I'll hold off on calling something stupid until i see it go down in the exact way you describe.

Regardless of whether that actually ends up being the way it goes down, that's the way it has to go down for Hel's plan to work, and therefore probably the way it will go down if the Order doesn't interfere.

KorvinStarmast

2016-02-15, 03:16 PM

I say lemon for her, definitely. :p
Lemon Chiffon (https://www.americastestkitchen.com/recipes/7336-lemon-chiffon-pie), with a tea dress to match.

goodpeople25

2016-02-15, 06:32 PM

Assuming he meant me, sarcasm very much involved. If you'll forgive me, I'll hold off on calling something stupid until i see it go down in the exact way you describe.
definitely was talking to you. thought the quote would bd sufficient but i guess not:smallwink:
But yeah I agree.

Regardless of whether that actually ends up being the way it goes down, that's the way it has to go down for Hel's plan to work, and therefore probably the way it will go down if the Order doesn't interfere.
Really? Every single way this could go involves Dvalin knowing the elders are dominated and voting anyway, or not noticing them in a stupid way?
The people who think he's LS most likely think how it will go down will mean he would know/ignore the domination but that's not the only way it can go. It could just be a magic communication/signal, or even smoke signals, which is actually kinda fitting with the connection to electing the pope.

Shining Wrath

2016-02-15, 09:06 PM

Regardless of what rules the godsmoot has about coercing another voter, neither the vampires nor the dwarven elders are part of the godsmoot and therefore not under its jurisdiction. How Dvalin comes to his decision is his own business.

So you think that threatening to murder a high priest's family is not forbidden? I can see lots of ways for out-of-moot activity to corrupt the moot, and lots of gods (Tyr, for one) willing to go there.

Really? Every single way this could go involves Dvalin knowing the elders are dominated and voting anyway, or not noticing them in a stupid way?
The people who think he's LS most likely think how it will go down will mean he would know/ignore the domination but that's not the only way it can go. It could just be a magic communication/signal, or even smoke signals, which is actually kinda fitting with the connection to electing the pope.

Unless I miss my guess, the HPoDvalin cannot leave the moot, and therefore the elders have to come to him, or some sort of communication has to be established. But we have Veldrina's opinion that the barrier around the moot also blocks communication magic. Therefore, it's got to be physical communication - messenger, letter, carrier pigeon, what have you. That's why it took so long.

The way for the OotS to win may in fact involve Elan using an illusion and pretending to be the messenger.

Keltest

2016-02-15, 09:16 PM

So you think that threatening to murder a high priest's family is not forbidden? I can see lots of ways for out-of-moot activity to corrupt the moot, and lots of gods (Tyr, for one) willing to go there.

The high priests are not the ones voting. At worst, that will stop them from showing up to the moot, and there are probably more priests available than other gods can readily blackmail.

Dvalin is a unique case, as far as we have seen, in that his vote is not yet decided and is influenced by a third party.

DaggerPen

2016-02-15, 09:30 PM

So you think that threatening to murder a high priest's family is not forbidden? I can see lots of ways for out-of-moot activity to corrupt the moot, and lots of gods (Tyr, for one) willing to go there.

Unless I miss my guess, the HPoDvalin cannot leave the moot, and therefore the elders have to come to him, or some sort of communication has to be established. But we have Veldrina's opinion that the barrier around the moot also blocks communication magic. Therefore, it's got to be physical communication - messenger, letter, carrier pigeon, what have you. That's why it took so long.

The way for the OotS to win may in fact involve Elan using an illusion and pretending to be the messenger.

This exact thing occurred to me, but then I realized that Dvalin is a demigod and may have better ways to hear it than having a message delivered to his high priest, such as another clergy member in the dwarven lands delivering the verdict via prayer or similar. That may be tougher to avoid showing domination on, though - I suspect you'd have to contrive it so that the verdict deliverer was not dominated but still faithfully delivered a "Yes."

goodpeople25

2016-02-15, 10:02 PM

So you think that threatening to murder a high priest's family is not forbidden? I can see lots of ways for out-of-moot activity to corrupt the moot, and lots of gods (Tyr, for one) willing to go there.

Unless I miss my guess, the HPoDvalin cannot leave the moot, and therefore the elders have to come to him, or some sort of communication has to be established. But we have Veldrina's opinion that the barrier around the moot also blocks communication magic. Therefore, it's got to be physical communication - messenger, letter, carrier pigeon, what have you. That's why it took so long.

The way for the OotS to win may in fact involve Elan using an illusion and pretending to be the messenger.
Why would the elders inform the HP and not the god of their decision if it's possible? And the 2 days seem to me to be getting the elders in one room, but this is still a possibility of course. That one cannot really guess all outcomes is my point anyway.

But as for out of moot corrupting rules, the way of voting seems to eliminate changing a vote via High Priest in most cases but this one. Now what can be done is prevent a High Priests from getting to the moot. (Possibly one of the reasons they have bodyguards anyway) But those cases i feel wouldn't really be under Godsmoot rules and would probably be hard to prove. Kinda like the bodyguard attacking the priest loophole, i think its possible that bodygaurds were bribed or coerced into killing their HP before, but they did it on the road not the moot thus them not filling up the loophole.

GreatWyrmGold

2016-02-16, 08:39 AM

:roy: I usually have a few punchline-friendly characters with me to lighten this stuff back up.

Dammit, Belkar, where are you? We need your skills!

KorvinStarmast

2016-02-16, 09:57 AM

:roy: I usually have a few punchline-friendly characters with me to lighten this stuff back up.

Dammit, Belkar, where are you? We need your skills!
Yeah. It's almost lunchtime and we need someone to make tasty food: iron rations aren't going to cut it today.

Peelee

2016-02-16, 12:24 PM

Regardless of whether that actually ends up being the way it goes down, that's the way it has to go down for Hel's plan to work, and therefore probably the way it will go down if the Order doesn't interfere.

See, I'm not so sure of that. Nothing's to say that Dvalin will come down to the Material Place and watch as they vote. And the High Priest of Dvalin certainly can't go himself to monitor, since he's stuck at the Godsmoot.

Fact is, we don't know how Dvalin is going to obtain and tally the votes, and there's no reason to assume that the method that would produce the dumbest outcome is the only way it can go down.

Reboot

2016-02-16, 03:48 PM

...there's no reason to assume that the method that would produce the dumbest outcome is the only way it can go down.

Have you been reading strips 993-1024? Roy even hangs a lampshade on it in 1022!

Pyrous

2016-02-16, 04:17 PM

Have you been reading strips 993-1024? Roy even hangs a lampshade on it in 1022!

He lampshades the most frustrating way to rules-lawyer, not the dumbest outcome.

Jasdoif

2016-02-16, 04:49 PM

Fact is, we don't know how Dvalin is going to obtain and tally the votes, and there's no reason to assume that the method that would produce the dumbest outcome is the only way it can go down.If there are any elders who would normally support the destruction of the world (possibly under the belief that willingly choosing self-sacrifice for the good of the world's souls would constitute an honorable death for themselves), they would only need to dominate the "save the world" elders. In that way, whether the dominated voters are counted with their mind controlled votes or such votes are discarded, the vote still goes in Hel's favor.

And that assumes that the whole thing isn't simply a stall tactic, delaying the proceedings while the high priests are physically and communicative-ly isolated from priests who might be able to interfere with whatever HPoH's actual intent is. That would work even if efforts to rid all the elders of mind control (and, potentially, fetch them) are required before Dvalin gets a result.