Haggling - are there rules? Skill checks?

[daremetoidareyo]

Haggling. I hate doing it in real life. But in DND, it's a blast. I think because it also has an additional barter component. In Dnd, you can trade things like free dragon removal, princess retrieval, 2 weeks of being an armed guard etc. as additional things to bargain with to get that one perfect item for a build.

Funnily enough, it's always the face characters and diplomancer's who just absolutely need that charisma boosting item. And the bonus they want is just a little to powerful for anything of appropriate CR, so you want to make them sweat for it. Everyone will feel a little happier if the PC had to earn the ability to mow down the field of orc initiators in 2 diplomacy checks and a lie that only an imbecile would believe. (At least the shopkeeper's wererat shakedown artist problem made them bleed).

But if it comes down to skill checks, what besides an opposed charisma roll can buttress the haggling process. Sometimes PCs are in a big enough town for the perfect magic item. They pay a tout or they make the necessary gather information checks to track down the various loonies who sell magic items and they enter their shop, garden, business, or library. And now they want to buy something the shopkeep knows is valuable, rare, and capable of granting people powers beyond what nature ever designed.

How do you structure your social roles around this bout of haggling?

[Geddy2112]

First, don't let diplomancers run roughshod over the game-there is diplomacy and lying, but there are some things that are just impossible.

Second-don't have stereotypical magic shops with stereotypical haggles.

As far as actual haggling, there are pathfinder optional rules for diplomacy to haggle here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/diplomacy). In reality, haggling encompasses appraise, bluff, relevant craft, diplomacy, intimidate, relevant knowledge, perception, relevant perform, relevant profession, sense motive, and maybe even slight of hand.

As a DM, I make sure I know my NPC's and what they would do if somebody tries to haggle with them. Some will, some won't. If they will, it is rarely a skill check, but a condition the players have to meet. Sometimes, the merchant might haggle in return for a favor/quest. Sometimes, they just have to flash the gold. Sometimes, they can browbeat the merchant about their failing marriage and they will concede the item at a lower price. Players can make skill checks to help figure out the particular condition.

Some merchants won't haggle, but will accept a good deal if offered. Some just have sticker price and that is that.

[Cruiser1]

How do you structure your social roles around this bout of haggling?
D&D 3.5 has official rules for haggling in CAdv: If you use a Diplomacy check and adjust a vendor to helpful, they'll reduce the price for an item or service they're selling (including magical items) by 10%.

[Bohandas]

Most computer RPGs tie it to Appraise

[Milo v3]

Pathfinder has mechanics for bargaining here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/bargaining.html), though I have no idea on their quality.

[gtwucla]

First, don't let diplomancers run roughshod over the game-there is diplomacy and lying, but there are some things that are just impossible.

Second-don't have stereotypical magic shops with stereotypical haggles.

As far as actual haggling, there are pathfinder optional rules for diplomacy to haggle here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/diplomacy). In reality, haggling encompasses appraise, bluff, relevant craft, diplomacy, intimidate, relevant knowledge, perception, relevant perform, relevant profession, sense motive, and maybe even slight of hand.

As a DM, I make sure I know my NPC's and what they would do if somebody tries to haggle with them. Some will, some won't. If they will, it is rarely a skill check, but a condition the players have to meet. Sometimes, the merchant might haggle in return for a favor/quest. Sometimes, they just have to flash the gold. Sometimes, they can browbeat the merchant about their failing marriage and they will concede the item at a lower price. Players can make skill checks to help figure out the particular condition.

Some merchants won't haggle, but will accept a good deal if offered. Some just have sticker price and that is that.

Geddys got a good system going here. I think if you boil something you and your players think is interesting down to a skill check, it takes away from the game. The important thing here is, something you AND your players think is interesting.

[Zaq]

Geddys got a good system going here. I think if you boil something you and your players think is interesting down to a skill check, it takes away from the game. The important thing here is, something you AND your players think is interesting.

Pretty much this. One major problem I have with haggling is that I absolutely hate devoting table time to shopping. I mean, if you know you need one specific item and then you go and buy that item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0976.html), fine, but don't stop the game for an hour while players pore over their wishlists (or worse, pore over the rulebooks and start generating wishlists) and ask a million questions about what the merchant does and doesn't have in stock and spend forever calculating different gold budgets and aaaaaargh.

I don't usually like shopping in reality, and I don't like 3.5's item system in general, so combining them to eat up precious table time that could be spent going on adventures and doing exciting things is just entirely grating for me. (With limited exceptions. shopping should generally be done offscreen between play sessions, I feel.) Haggling makes this worse because it demands more table time. It takes time if you want to roleplay the haggling process. It takes time for the appropriate skill checks (if any) to be made. It takes time to calculate the new prices (less time if you have a fixed percentage associated with certain results, more time if the GM likes to be loosey-goosey with how much discount each merchant will give for each haggling attempt, but still time). It takes time to figure out if you still want the same list of items at the new prices (maybe you can now afford more than you expected, or maybe you failed at haggling and you can't buy everything you wanted, or maybe the new discount put something that was previously out of reach back in reach but only if you drop some other things you were planning on, or . . .). Shopping already takes too much table time, and haggling just makes it worse.

I mean, different strokes and all that. Maybe your group loves the roleplaying aspect of going back and forth and driving a hard bargain and trying different tactics against different merchants and all that. Cool. Have fun. Knock yourself out. But speaking personally? Just tell me how much gold I have to spend and if there are any whitelists/blacklists of what I can and can't buy with it at the end of the session, I'll do my homework during the week and clear it with the GM, and then I'll show up to the next session with less gold and more gear. 3.5's item economy takes long enough to handle when I'm just working alone with a character sheet and/or a spreadsheet. Don't make it worse by making me roleplay arguing over the price for every scroll and trinket.

[daremetoidareyo]

Pretty much this. One major problem I have with haggling is that I absolutely hate devoting table time to shopping. I mean, if you know you need one specific item and then you go and buy that item (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0976.html), fine, but don't stop the game for an hour while players pore over their wishlists (or worse, pore over the rulebooks and start generating wishlists) and ask a million questions about what the merchant does and doesn't have in stock and spend forever calculating different gold budgets and aaaaaargh.

I don't usually like shopping in reality, and I don't like 3.5's item system in general, so combining them to eat up precious table time that could be spent going on adventures and doing exciting things is just entirely grating for me. (With limited exceptions. shopping should generally be done offscreen between play sessions, I feel.) Haggling makes this worse because it demands more table time. It takes time if you want to roleplay the haggling process. It takes time for the appropriate skill checks (if any) to be made. It takes time to calculate the new prices (less time if you have a fixed percentage associated with certain results, more time if the GM likes to be loosey-goosey with how much discount each merchant will give for each haggling attempt, but still time). It takes time to figure out if you still want the same list of items at the new prices (maybe you can now afford more than you expected, or maybe you failed at haggling and you can't buy everything you wanted, or maybe the new discount put something that was previously out of reach back in reach but only if you drop some other things you were planning on, or . . .). Shopping already takes too much table time, and haggling just makes it worse.

I mean, different strokes and all that. Maybe your group loves the roleplaying aspect of going back and forth and driving a hard bargain and trying different tactics against different merchants and all that. Cool. Have fun. Knock yourself out. But speaking personally? Just tell me how much gold I have to spend and if there are any whitelists/blacklists of what I can and can't buy with it at the end of the session, I'll do my homework during the week and clear it with the GM, and then I'll show up to the next session with less gold and more gear. 3.5's item economy takes long enough to handle when I'm just working alone with a character sheet and/or a spreadsheet. Don't make it worse by making me roleplay arguing over the price for every scroll and trinket.

I hear ya on hating shopping. As DM though, especially one who really dislikes the magic mart in every town aspect of what players expect from 3.5, you got to put a little friction on the idea the PCs can get everything that they want, how they want. And, some of the PCs enjoy stealing from shopkeeps while others want to see what custom items I populate the extra-ordinary "shops" with.

We don't handle routine shopping with rolls or anything. It's the weird stuff. That first few big bags of gems at the money traders. The multi thousand gp purchase on a single magic item needs an accompanying scene, because that is part of the reward for not dying against the illithidogs and their take over of the werewolves. So I break out purchase scenes, so the PCs can be rewarded or encounter just a little more struggle before success. Either way, the dancing tower shield +1 becomes something more than the final lynchpin in a RAW abusive build. It's a final lynchpin with a memory attached.

Players should be able to tell you where they get their iconic gear, you know?