Do Clerics get any "reaction" uses? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

monkey3

2016-02-12, 03:42 PM

MaxWilson

2016-02-12, 03:48 PM

Vemynal

2016-02-12, 05:51 PM

Light Domain can use Warding Flare. Initially just on yourself and later on others.

MeeposFire

2016-02-12, 06:12 PM

For anyone in melee you still have your opportunity attack which can be enhanced with warcaster.

MaxWilson

2016-02-12, 06:45 PM

As compensation for not having any great reaction stuff, clerics have terrific bonus action spells like Shield of Faith, Spiritual Hammer^H^H^H^H^H^HWeapon and Sanctuary. Sanctuary and Spiritual Weapon don't even cost concentration.

monkey3

2016-02-16, 10:31 AM

GWJ_DanyBoy

2016-02-16, 10:46 AM

Light Clerics have Warding Flare that uses their reaction to hand out disadvantage.

Rusvul

2016-02-16, 11:06 AM

The vast majority of characters don't get Reaction spells. One or two subclasses can get non-spell abilities (Battlemaster, off the top of my head) but I don't think it's really 'unfortunate.' Melee works fairly well for Clerics (Particularly the heavy-armor domains) so they'll have AOOs as much as the next guy if they want to. Reactions (In my experience) aren't used for much other than AOOs unless you're an Abjurer or a Warlock anyway.

JumboWheat01

2016-02-16, 04:37 PM

Thanks everyone. It is unfortunate that more than half the clerics will have no use for their reaction (AOO's are not that common for a cleric). Using Polearm Master is a cool idea I had not thought about. It takes two feats (between that and the one to get you Shillelagh), but at least it possible.

If you go nature cleric, you can grab Shillelagh as part of your starting package, along with heavy armor, perfect set up for a cleric to wade close enough in and use a polearm while leaving you enough ASI for capping wisdom, grabbing polearm master, and possibly capping constitution, or grabbing resilience for constitution as well. Maybe even War Caster for advantage on concentration.

Drackolus

2016-02-16, 05:31 PM

Shillelagh + shield will want warcaster for spells with S but not M.

This topic makes me excited to make a str AND dex dumping life cleric/lore bard that I've been thinking of.

MeeposFire

2016-02-16, 10:37 PM

If you go nature cleric, you can grab Shillelagh as part of your starting package, along with heavy armor, perfect set up for a cleric to wade close enough in and use a polearm while leaving you enough ASI for capping wisdom, grabbing polearm master, and possibly capping constitution, or grabbing resilience for constitution as well. Maybe even War Caster for advantage on concentration.

Go whole hog and be a dwarf and never worry about str again. Wisdom will do it all.

mgshamster

2016-02-16, 11:12 PM

Shillelagh + shield will want warcaster for spells with S but not M.

This topic makes me excited to make a str AND dex dumping life cleric/lore bard that I've been thinking of.

Go whole hog and be a dwarf and never worry about str again. Wisdom will do it all.

How do these work?

RickAllison

2016-02-16, 11:14 PM

How do these work?

I'm not sure about the first one, but I believe the second refers to dwarves being able to wear heavier armors without needing high strength.

JumboWheat01

2016-02-16, 11:42 PM

How do these work?

With War Caster, you can perform somatics even if both your hands are full, such as with weapons and or a shield.

With the second, as Rick said, Dwarves have an ability to ignore the penalty on Heavy Armors. Normally, unless your STR is a certain level, heavy armors slow you down and give you disadvantage in various rolls. As a dwarf, you can safely ignore it.

Hill Dwarf with standard array can easily hit 20 wisdom, start with 16 constitution, which definitely leaves room for a couple of feats, and they can grab nature cleric for the heavy armor, ignore the penalty, snag Shillelagh as their free druid cantrip, and proceed to smack things around with a club or quarterstaff.

MeeposFire

2016-02-16, 11:53 PM

How do these work?

Heavy armor allows you to mostly ignore your dex score. Shillelagh allows you to ignore str in melee combat and works with a a weapon with polearm master if you want multiple attacks. Dwarf allows you to ignore your str score towards heavy armor. End result the dwarf nature cleric does not really need to worry about str, dex, int, or cha (outside of roleplaying concerns of course) and you can concentrate on wisdom and constitution (also hil dwarves get even more HP on top of that).

mgshamster

2016-02-16, 11:56 PM

That's great! Thanks for the explanation!

RickAllison

2016-02-16, 11:59 PM

Heavy armor allows you to mostly ignore your dex score. Shillelagh allows you to ignore str in melee combat and works with a a weapon with polearm master if you want multiple attacks. Dwarf allows you to ignore your str score towards heavy armor. End result the dwarf nature cleric does not really need to worry about str, dex, int, or cha (outside of roleplaying concerns of course) and you can concentrate on wisdom and constitution (also hil dwarves get even more HP on top of that).

And who doesn't LOVE more HP!

rtrnofdmax

2016-02-17, 12:07 AM

With War Caster, you can perform somatics even if both your hands are full, such as with weapons and or a shield.

With the second, as Rick said, Dwarves have an ability to ignore the penalty on Heavy Armors. Normally, unless your STR is a certain level, heavy armors slow you down and give you disadvantage in various rolls. As a dwarf, you can safely ignore it.

Hill Dwarf with standard array can easily hit 20 wisdom, start with 16 constitution, which definitely leaves room for a couple of feats, and they can grab nature cleric for the heavy armor, ignore the penalty, snag Shillelagh as their free druid cantrip, and proceed to smack things around with a club or quarterstaff.

Shillelagh still has material components. While one item is the weapon itself, there is also mistletoe. Are you saying they go into combat with a club and the mistletoe clutched in one hand and then perform the somatic components with the shield hand?

Since you have to handle somatic and material components with different hands, I guess that's how it works regardless of war caster.

Perhaps you do the somatic with one hand, hold the mistletoe in the other hand and hand your club from your belt. That way you can draw it on the move.

RickAllison

2016-02-17, 12:12 AM

Shillelagh still has material components. While one item is the weapon itself, there is also mistletoe. Are you saying they go into combat with a club and the mistletoe clutched in one hand and then perform the somatic components with the shield hand?

Since you have to handle somatic and material components with different hands, I guess that's how it works regardless of war caster.

Perhaps you do the somatic with one hand, hold the mistletoe in the other hand and hand your club from your belt. That way you can draw it on the move.

Tie the mistletoe to the weapon? If its a quarterstaff, even better; get giant mistletoe and you can pretend you're Rafiki:

http://www.lionking.org/imgarchive/Clip_Art/rafiki05.gif

Moctzal

2016-02-17, 12:47 AM

Tie the mistletoe to the weapon? If its a quarterstaff, even better; get giant mistletoe and you can pretend you're Rafiki:

http://www.lionking.org/imgarchive/Clip_Art/rafiki05.gif

A quarterstaff can be your druid spellcasting focus, so no separate components required.

JumboWheat01

2016-02-17, 08:03 AM

A quarterstaff can be your druid spellcasting focus, so no separate components required.

A nature cleric doesn't get that benefit, unfortunately. However, they can have their holy focus put on a shield, so in the end, it works out the same, no need for the mistletoe.

mgshamster

2016-02-17, 08:19 AM

A nature cleric doesn't get that benefit, unfortunately. However, they can have their holy focus put on a shield, so in the end, it works out the same, no need for the mistletoe.

They can also just "wear it visibly."

Drackolus

2016-02-17, 01:25 PM

You can hold all material components with one hand AND use somatic components for that spell with the same hand. I got shillelagh from m.initiate and, since it was a druid spell, had to cast it with the actual spell components. Since the staff is one of the material components, you can hold the other ones in the same hand as the staff. Plus, Rafiki-ing your staff is always rad.

Socratov

2016-02-18, 03:28 PM

Please remember that polearm master and shillelagh don't mix: shillelagh is limited to clubs and quarterstaffs. I'm not very sure if quarterstaffs mix well with polearm master.

mgshamster

2016-02-18, 03:46 PM

Please remember that polearm master and shillelagh don't mix: shillelagh is limited to clubs and quarterstaffs. I'm not very sure if quarterstaffs mix well with polearm master.

Considering that the quarterstaff is specifically mentioned in the Polearm Master feat, I think it just might work. :)

RickAllison

2016-02-18, 05:11 PM

Considering that the quarterstaff is specifically mentioned in the Polearm Master feat, I think it just might work. :)

Indeed. It is especially odd that they call it out as such when its pointy brother, the spear, does not get the same treatment.

MaxWilson

2016-02-18, 06:47 PM

Indeed. It is especially odd that they call it out as such when its pointy brother, the spear, does not get the same treatment.

The "improvised weapons" section says that the DM can choose to treat objects as weapons which they resemble. I believe it calls out using a table leg with Club proficiency or something like that.

It seems totally reasonable to me as a DM to allow a spear to be used as an improvised quarterstaff--but in this case, if it were a magic spear I would not count it as an improvised magic quarterstaff, just an improvised quarterstaff. You're not using it as the kind of weapon it actually is. I.e. the magic on the spearhead isn't being brought into play.

JumboWheat01

2016-02-18, 11:43 PM

Indeed. It is especially odd that they call it out as such when its pointy brother, the spear, does not get the same treatment.

I find it odder that the quarterstaff is mentioned at all when it doesn't have Reach in its stat block. Or maybe it does, I have the older printing. And why would smacking something with the other end of the quarterstaff do less damage? They should be the same, really. It's a staff.

RickAllison

2016-02-19, 12:32 AM

I find it odder that the quarterstaff is mentioned at all when it doesn't have Reach in its stat block. Or maybe it does, I have the older printing. And why would smacking something with the other end of the quarterstaff do less damage? They should be the same, really. It's a staff.

With the Polearm Master, it's a lot about how they are wielded. The reduced damage isn't because of the other end hurting less, it's because the front end is being wielded such that more leverage is brought to bear on the attacks (keep in mind that a quarterstaff was traditionally wielded more akin to halfway between a spear and sword rather than like a bo staff). The second attack deals less damage because the wielder is bashing with less leverage and less of the staff. It's more akin to bashing someone with the pommel of your greatsword than swinging the weapon again. No Reach, but it's wielded similarly.

EDIT: Based on its treatment in the book, the issue with the spear and pike is the method of being wielded. All the weapons that get to take the bonus action feature have a swinging motion to the attack (halberd=>axe, glaive=>sword, quarterstaff=>club), and the momentum then is led into making the attack with the haft. A thrusting motion like the pike cannot replicate this because the momentum of the attack is directed forward and cannot be effectively converted to the haft attack. The pike does qualify for the second part (opportunity attacks) since the area denial aspect of the weapon still functions , but the spear is still left out. Curse it getting to be thrown!

Socratov

2016-02-19, 01:31 AM

Considering that the quarterstaff is specifically mentioned in the Polearm Master feat, I think it just might work. :)

Ah, I'd missed that...

RickAllison

2016-02-19, 01:43 AM

Ah, I'd missed that...

An easy mistake. It is certainly the odd one out (and the pike is the odd one left out!).

Citan

2016-02-19, 07:13 AM

I know there are a couple of domains that grant something to do during your "reaction" (Nature, Tempest). If you are not of those lucky domains, is there anything you can do/cast in your reaction?

I wish they had gotten any one of: Absorb Elements, Shield, Featherfall, Counterspell. Anything that they could do...

Please let me know if I missed something.
Hi OP ;)

I suggest you edit your post to include the addendum by Vemynal.

Beyond that, you're right, not many options for a pure Cleric.

Beyond multiclassing, you could grab Magic Initiate feat though to get a few goodies (with Druid for Shillelagh+Absorb Elements or Wizard for Minor Illusion + AE or Shield being the most obvious ones).

Also, I wonder if (putting aside class requirements) one could use such kind of spells written on a scroll? Like, a Wizard inscribing a Counterspell on a scroll and giving it to a high-level Thief. Would then Thief be able to use it as a reaction?

Or rather, is the action economy of "reading a scroll" the one to consider, meaning in my example a bonus action (Use an Object), meaning that Reaction spells on scrolls are useless?

The second option seems the more logical to me, but it would be a shame. Thoughts?

Socratov

2016-02-19, 07:09 PM

Hi OP ;)

I suggest you edit your post to include the addendum by Vemynal.

Beyond that, you're right, not many options for a pure Cleric.

Beyond multiclassing, you could grab Magic Initiate feat though to get a few goodies (with Druid for Shillelagh+Absorb Elements or Wizard for Minor Illusion + AE or Shield being the most obvious ones).

Also, I wonder if (putting aside class requirements) one could use such kind of spells written on a scroll? Like, a Wizard inscribing a Counterspell on a scroll and giving it to a high-level Thief. Would then Thief be able to use it as a reaction?

Or rather, is the action economy of "reading a scroll" the one to consider, meaning in my example a bonus action (Use an Object), meaning that Reaction spells on scrolls are useless?

The second option seems the more logical to me, but it would be a shame. Thoughts?

please note that shillelagh is not a reaction time spell, it's a bonus spell and only grants a reaction when used with a quarterstaff and polearm master.

Citan

2016-02-20, 03:46 AM

please note that shillelagh is not a reaction time spell, it's a bonus spell and only grants a reaction when used with a quarterstaff and polearm master.
Well... Sure?
I was talking about Absorb Elements, Shield and Counterspell you know? ^^

I just quoted Shillelagh as an added "bonus" for dipping Druid as a Cleric.
Same as quoting Minor Illustion as an added bonus for dipping Wizard.
Seemed pretty obvious to me. :)

Socratov

2016-02-20, 04:33 PM

Well... Sure?
I was talking about Absorb Elements, Shield and Counterspell you know? ^^

I just quoted Shillelagh as an added "bonus" for dipping Druid as a Cleric.
Same as quoting Minor Illustion as an added bonus for dipping Wizard.
Seemed pretty obvious to me. :)

I interpreted as if you were still talking about reaction spells.

lebefrei

2016-02-21, 06:24 AM

Based on its treatment in the book, the issue with the spear and pike is the method of being wielded. All the weapons that get to take the bonus action feature have a swinging motion

Yep, it's a chop vs thrust difference. With polearm master you bring the weapon down on your target, then as you reverse you whack them with the butt. Was it actually a skill performed in real world combat? Almost definitely not, except ironically with a quarterstaff (probably the most argued against weapon for the feat). Yet that is the intended use of the feat.

With a thrusting weapon your momentum is spend lunging forward. Reversing this only brings the weapon back to you, and provides no opportunity for a second hit without again lunging forward, which is an entirely new attack. The feat correctly should not apply.