What's the difference between tremorsense and blindsight

[spartan_ah]

As asked above

[BladeWing81]

As asked above

I'm guessing tremorsense is what you can feel on the ground in other words you couldn't see something if its levitating.
and blindsight you could probably see better than with normal sight, knowing what's being walls or locked rooms at a certain distance, but will be confused when something in burrowing underground.

you could think its the difference between Matt Murdock and Toph Bei Fong.

[solidork]

you could think its the difference between Matt Murdock and Toph Bei Fong.

This.

Blindsight can include things like echolocation and smell.

[Desamir]

From MM pg. 8-9:


Blindsight
A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius.

Creatures without eyes, such as grimlocks and gray oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons.


Tremorsense
A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance. Tremorsense can't be used to detect flying or incorporeal creatures. Many burrowing creatures, such as ankhegs and umber hulks, have this special sense.

[Sir cryosin]

Tremorsense is how Toph see's and blindsight is how daredevil see's

[spartan_ah]

I'm talking mechanically. It seems the same if not for the worse on tremorsense

[Rhaegar]

I'm talking mechanically. It seems the same if not for the worse on tremorsense

Tremor sense couldn't detect an enemy if it stood completely still or was flying or levitating, and even if it was detecting the enemy through the movement of vibrations, I believe attacks would still be blind attacks if it couldn't see it through visual methods if the target were invisible. These monsters would be harder to sneak up on detecting your footsteps. The main advantage tremor sense would have over blind sight would be in detecting underground burrowing creatures, or in detecting enemies on the other side of a wall.

[Sitri]

If you rely on twitter thus far, tremor sense does nothing. You might infer that creatures touching the ground lose the unseen attacker/target bonus just to make it worth something, but it certainly doesn't say that. Otherwise might also conclude this is just a bull**** ability not conferring any benefit. See the text of Feral Senses and One with Shadows for equal levels of pleonasm/uselessness.

Likewise, if you rely on twitter, a good argument could be made that blind sense nullifies the unseen attacker/target rules in range but not much else.

If you say the twitter explanations of how vision works in this edition thus far are bull****, which I think you should (JC has not answered my multiple questions on the matter yet) tremor sense lets you find the square of a person touching the ground (like it says), and blindsense lets you both locate and nullify the effects of unseen attacker/target in range regardless if you both touch the ground or not.

[georgie_leech]

If you rely on twitter thus far, tremor sense does nothing. You might infer that creatures touching the ground lose the unseen attacker/target bonus just to make it worth something, but it certainly doesn't say that. Otherwise might also conclude this is just a bull**** ability not conferring any benefit. See the text of Feral Senses and One with Shadows for equal levels of pleonasm/uselessness.

Likewise, if you rely on twitter, a good argument could be made that blind sense nullifies the unseen attacker/target rules in range but not much else.

If you say the twitter explanations of how vision works in this edition thus far are bull****, which I think you should (JC has not answered my multiple questions on the matter yet) tremor sense lets you find the square of a person touching the ground (like it says), and blindsense lets you both locate and nullify the effects of unseen attacker/target in range regardless if you both touch the ground or not.

Point of order, Tremor Sense completely prevents hiding from it in the radius unless the creature is flying or insubstantial. There's always going to be vibrations otherwise, including just heartbeats or breathing. Strictly speaking, while blind sense makes it harder to engineer a situation where you can hide from a creature with the ability, they have no particular advantage to pinpoint them if they manage it. Tremor sense just pinpoints creatures, period, regardless of whether they're trying to hide.

[hymer]

Point of order, Tremor Sense completely prevents hiding from it in the radius unless the creature is flying or insubstantial. There's always going to be vibrations otherwise, including just heartbeats or breathing. Strictly speaking, while blind sense makes it harder to engineer a situation where you can hide from a creature with the ability, they have no particular advantage to pinpoint them if they manage it. Tremor sense just pinpoints creatures, period, regardless of whether they're trying to hide.

Tremor Sense has the added advantage of making you able to sense through the ground. You can sense things underground as well as on the surface. That includes while you yourself are burrowing, so you can go landshark on people on the surface, because you know where they are.

[PoeticDwarf]

As others say. In general tremorsense is just worse

[spartan_ah]

So it's weird that psion "third eye" gives you blindsight for free but tremor sense costs you a psi point

[Zalabim]

Blindsight is like sight, but it works despite being blind. It works like sight, but uses non-visual information. Tremorsense is not like sight. It only detects things that create vibrations. If you stand outside a perfectly dark room and open the door, blindsight lets you see everything in the room. If you stand outside a perfectly dark room with tremorsense, you can usually detect each creature in the room, but it won't tell you that there's a door in front of you. That's up to your other senses, unless the door vibrates.

[Sitri]

Point of order, Tremor Sense completely prevents hiding from it in the radius unless the creature is flying or insubstantial. There's always going to be vibrations otherwise, including just heartbeats or breathing. Strictly speaking, while blind sense makes it harder to engineer a situation where you can hide from a creature with the ability, they have no particular advantage to pinpoint them if they manage it. Tremor sense just pinpoints creatures, period, regardless of whether they're trying to hide.

I see nothing in Tremorsense that suggest it interacts with the unseen attacker/target rules or the hiding rules, it simply gives away location. According to twitter it seems everyone just knows the location of everyone anyway sans hide action.

[georgie_leech]

I see nothing in Tremorsense that suggest it interacts with the unseen attacker/target rules or the hiding rules, it simply gives away location. According to twitter it seems everyone just knows the location of everyone anyway sans hide action.

And then we have Tremorsense specifically calling out that it pinpoints the locations of creatures. In other words, since sans the Hide action or other means of being undetectable we know where creatures are, the only point of such of language is to override masking your location as through Hiding.

[Sitri]

And then we have Tremorsense specifically calling out that it pinpoints the locations of creatures. In other words, since sans the Hide action or other means of being undetectable we know where creatures are, the only point of such of language is to override masking your location as through Hiding.

So you are creating a use because Crawford's HUD ruling makes its useless, like some other abilities.

[georgie_leech]

So you are creating a use because Crawford's HUD ruling makes its useless, like some other abilities.

Not really. I used the 'generally aware of other creatures' existence' thing before the ruling. I'm arguing it has this use because otherwise it's a literally pointless ability to give to someone with other senses. When an ability amounts to 'detect things in these circumstances,' I generally think that the ability can detect things in those circumstances. I see nothing in the Hide rules anywhere that implies it somehow prevents you from making vibrations, ergo, something with Tremorsense can detect such creatures. It doesn't interact with the Hide rules because it doesn't care about them entirely. It wouldn't do anything to prevent a blind tremorsensing character from suffering disadvantage from trying to attack a character they can't see, but they at least know where to attack.

[Sitri]

Not really. I used the 'generally aware of other creatures' existence' thing before the ruling.
It was circumstantial for me, but this way would still make abilities like tremorsense worth something. I could be ok with that interpretation.



I'm arguing it has this use because otherwise it's a literally pointless ability to give to someone with other senses.

Agreed, giving everyone the ability to pinpoint every creature whether you see them or not makes this ability pretty much pointless (you could argue a few niche cases that give a minor advantage that probably won't ever come up.) That has been my contention all along. This was not the only ability that got beat into the ground with a nerf stick by that ruling. Yet there they are in the book.



When an ability amounts to 'detect things in these circumstances,' I generally think that the ability can detect things in those circumstances.

Agreed.



I see nothing in the Hide rules anywhere that implies it somehow prevents you from making vibrations, ergo, something with Tremorsense can detect such creatures. It doesn't interact with the Hide rules because it doesn't care about them entirely. It wouldn't do anything to prevent a blind tremorsensing character from suffering disadvantage from trying to attack a character they can't see, but they at least know where to attack.

Agreed, but this wasn't what you said here:


Point of order, Tremor Sense completely prevents hiding from it in the radius unless the creature is flying or insubstantial.....

[georgie_leech]

Agreed, but this wasn't what you said here:

No, that's the equivalent. You can't Hide from a creature within range of its Tremorsense because you get pinpointed anyway. However, if you were flying, incorporeal, or otherwise able to negate its Tremorsense, you could once again Hide from it.

[Sitri]

No, that's the equivalent. You can't Hide from a creature within range of its Tremorsense because you get pinpointed anyway. However, if you were flying, incorporeal, or otherwise able to negate its Tremorsense, you could once again Hide from it.

By the book, pinpointing doesn't have anything to do with the hide action. That is a complete construct of twitter. As far as I can tell, tremorsense does not prevent hide (which only grants unseen attacker/target rules RAW.) This idea of enemies knowing your square but you still being able to hide/qualify for unseen attacker/defender is solidified by the halfling trait Naturally Stealthy and the Wild Elf trait Mask of the Wild.

As far as I can tell the stealth rules are completely ****ed as a result of multiple people having incompatible rules in mind for how it is supposed to work. One group has legacy and realism in mind and the other has streamlined simplicity in mind. The streamlined simplicity undermined a lot of other text.

[georgie_leech]

By the book, pinpointing doesn't have anything to do with the hide action. That is a complete construct of twitter. As far as I can tell, tremorsense does not prevent hide (which only grants unseen attacker/target rules RAW.) This idea of enemies knowing your square but you still being able to hide/qualify for unseen attacker/defender is solidified by the halfling trait Naturally Stealthy and the Wild Elf trait Mask of the Wild.

As far as I can tell the stealth rules are completely ****ed as a result of multiple people having incompatible rules in mind for how it is supposed to work. One group has legacy and realism in mind and the other has streamlined simplicity in mind. The streamlined simplicity undermined a lot of other text.

What makes you think a Halfling or Wood Elf isn't unseen when hiding using their respective racial traits?:smallconfused:

[krugaan]

By the book, pinpointing doesn't have anything to do with the hide action. That is a complete construct of twitter. As far as I can tell, tremorsense does not prevent hide (which only grants unseen attacker/target rules RAW.) This idea of enemies knowing your square but you still being able to hide/qualify for unseen attacker/defender is solidified by the halfling trait Naturally Stealthy and the Wild Elf trait Mask of the Wild.

As far as I can tell the stealth rules are completely ****ed as a result of multiple people having incompatible rules in mind for how it is supposed to work. One group has legacy and realism in mind and the other has streamlined simplicity in mind. The streamlined simplicity undermined a lot of other text.

oh LOL, are we going to bring THIS whole thread back up again?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454895-Echolocation-for-All&highlight=echolocation

[Sitri]

What makes you think a Halfling or Wood Elf isn't unseen when hiding using their respective racial traits?:smallconfused:

Quite the opposite, they become unseen attacker/target despite their square being known to enemies. The Hide action does exactly what it says it does and nothing more......In this instance, it can't really give you the new twitter masking and make any sense, not that it ever much did to begin with.


oh LOL, are we going to bring THIS whole thread back up again?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454895-Echolocation-for-All&highlight=echolocation

Obviously I am a little sore with Crawford on this. I have asked him about 5 times now to defend his position using book quotes in my question, which is pretty hard to do with a twitter word count limit of half a sentence. The only one he responded to was where I left it open to him how he wanted to respond and he simply asked me to be more specific in my question despite knowing exactly what I was asking.

[georgie_leech]

Quite the opposite, they become unseen attacker/target despite their square being known to enemies. The Hide action does exactly what it says it does and nothing more......In this instance, it can't really give you the new twitter masking and make any sense, not that it ever much did to begin with.

You know where they were, because they were seen and heard. Now they are Unseen and Unheard. You no longer know where they might be, though you do know to within a 5 foot square you lost track of them.

[Sitri]

You know where they were, because they were seen and heard. Now they are Unseen and Unheard. You no longer know where they might be, though you do know to within a 5 foot square you lost track of them.

In the halfling case, and in some circumstances of the wild elf, you have to be a complete moron to not know where they are. It doesn't stop them from getting the advantage hiding says it gives but it can't really mask their location.

[georgie_leech]

In the halfling case, and in some circumstances of the wild elf, you have to be a complete moron to not know where they are. It doesn't stop them from getting the advantage hiding says it gives but it can't really mask their location.

Sure it can. They're just that good at it.

[Sitri]

Sure it can. They're just that good at it.

They just stepped behind that guy/bush, there is nowhere else to go and I only have to change my angle slightly to expose the square behind the guy/bush and see them but nahhhh best not make that assumption.

I can take comfort in knowing they didn't Misty Escape away, because then I would know where their invisible body went, and I know they didn't D Door anywhere else I can't see because they would not be able to hide and cast it in the same round. BUT if the character is a sorcerer with Silent Spell they could hide action and then Misty Step behind a different cover point within 30'. OR if the DM extrapolates from twitter he might very well conclude that breathing (or just existing really, the character could hold his breath and it wouldn't help any) without hide action is more noisy than casting a spell with verbal components, then maybe anyone with Misty Step can do it.

Yep definitely not behind the guy they just walked behind. Definitely Misty Stepped away. Damn he is good.

[Regitnui]

Five foot square. 25 square feet. 2 and a half square metres. That's a fairly spacious area to hide in, especially in a crowd or forest. Less so in an open room, but dungeons of the sort we enjoy have plenty of shadows. So you can pinpoint someone to the 2.5 square metres they're currently in. Great. It's not a guaranteed hit by any means, so you can certainly hide visually from someone who has tremorsense.

And then we're forgetting that Stealth in combat isn't for sitting and waiting for them to come find you. Anyone who's played a stealth game knows that the prime reason for hiding is to find the best possible position for sniping. It's useless hiding exactly where they last saw you, so you move stealthily for a good distance before you shoot. If they find you, do it again. A Tremorsensing target can follow your movements, but still has a very low chance of hitting your exact position in the 2.5 square metres they know you're in. How big is an arrowhead or a sword tip? How big is an Ankheg's mouth?

[georgie_leech]

They just stepped behind that guy/bush, there is nowhere else to go and I only have to change my angle slightly to expose the square behind the guy/bush and see them but nahhhh best not make that assumption.

I can take comfort in knowing they didn't Misty Escape away, because then I would know where their invisible body went, and I know they didn't D Door anywhere else I can't see because they would not be able to hide and cast it in the same round. BUT if the character is a sorcerer with Silent Spell they could hide action and then Misty Step behind a different cover point within 30'. OR if the DM extrapolates from twitter he might very well conclude that breathing (or just existing really, the character could hold his breath and it wouldn't help any) without hide action is more noisy than casting a spell with verbal components, then maybe anyone with Misty Step can do it.

Yep definitely not behind the guy they just walked behind. Definitely Misty Stepped away. Damn he is good.

As Monty Python could tell you, one of the important parts of Not Being Seen is not choosing a very obvious piece of cover. If you try to Hide behind something that ceases to be effective cover by the observer moving slightly, with no options for escaping unseen, that's frankly your own fault. Meanwhile the clever halflings are using their allies as cover so they can set up their next move without interference and making sure the enemies never quite know where the next stone is coming from, and rather than hiding behind a single bush the Wood Elf archers are dashing between the trees and through the branches, vanishing without a trace even though you could see them just a second ago.

[Sitri]

As Monty Python could tell you, one of the important parts of Not Being Seen is not choosing a very obvious piece of cover. If you try to Hide behind something that ceases to be effective cover by the observer moving slightly, with no options for escaping unseen, that's frankly your own fault. Meanwhile the clever halflings are using their allies as cover so they can set up their next move without interference and making sure the enemies never quite know where the next stone is coming from, and rather than hiding behind a single bush the Wood Elf archers are dashing between the trees and through the branches, vanishing without a trace even though you could see them just a second ago.

We keep moving the goal posts here. I am not saying that these abilities can't be used under better circumstances, I am saying that you can gain the benefits of the Hide Action, aka Unseen Attacker/Target rules, even if your enemy knows what square you are in.

Similarly tremorsense, or just twittersense, often leads to Unseen Attacker/Target status even when a combatant's square is known to the enemy.

My parody above was in response to your statement that they really don't know you are still standing there.

[georgie_leech]

We keep moving the goal posts here. I am not saying that these abilities can't be used under better circumstances, I am saying that you can gain the benefits of the Hide Action, aka Unseen Attacker/Target rules, even if your enemy knows what square you are in.

Similarly tremorsense, or just twittersense, often leads to Unseen Attacker/Target status even when a combatant's square is known to the enemy.

My parody above was in response to your statement that they really don't know you are still standing there.

Ah, I can see what you're saying now. I think the fluff of the ability implies more precision than that of ambient awareness, but I concede by RAW it doesn't seem to. Poor writing strikes again.

[Temperjoke]

So, this thread reminded me of the movie, Tremors. These blind, worm-like monsters attack this small town. The heroes managed to figure out that the creatures can track via viabrations in the earth (aka tremorsense). To combat it, they get on solid rock that they can't chew through, up on top of buildings so they're not touching the ground, throwing lit sticks of dynamite to lure the monsters away, etc. This is interesting because some of the deaths of the people come from things like stopping so the creatures can't follow them, then are eaten from below as the monsters figured out that they hadn't actually moved, or destroying the building they were hiding on top of, since they "knew" they hadn't left from there. So that's how I picture tremorsense working in D&D.

Blindsight is almost too broad, I think. I mean, it could be echolocation, it could be scent-tracking, infrared vision, there are a lot of possible sources, at least in my opinion. Hell, even tremorsense is a sort of blindsight, depending on the circumstances.