Marilith: Class Levels

[RickAllison]

Okay, here's a fun little challenge (maybe not very challenging, though...). At level 16, the resident fighter/paladin/what-have-you wants to become something greater, but stay a melee fighter, so he agrees to be True Polymorphed. The Marilith is a CR 16 demon with a few features that could prove to be very useful, namely a Multiattack that hits 7 times, nice natural AC, truesight, teleport, and numerous resistances. If the Marilith is allowed to take class levels afterward, how would you optimize it?

No particular restrictions on what is defined as optimized, but I'm especially interested in Bards for personal reasons and the sheer number of attacks would seem to encourage a melee DPR build. Thoughts?

[MaxWilson]

Okay, here's a fun little challenge (maybe not very challenging, though...). At level 16, the resident fighter/paladin/what-have-you wants to become something greater, but stay a melee fighter, so he agrees to be True Polymorphed. The Marilith is a CR 16 demon with a few features that could prove to be very useful, namely a Multiattack that hits 7 times, nice natural AC, truesight, teleport, and numerous resistances. If the Marilith is allowed to take class levels afterward, how would you optimize it?

No particular restrictions on what is defined as optimized, but I'm especially interested in Bards for personal reasons and the sheer number of attacks would seem to encourage a melee DPR build. Thoughts?

Fighter 2 Bladesinger 2 for action surge and AC.

[pwykersotz]

Hmm...Action Surge is pretty sweet, and probably more use in a lot of ways, but I'd be tempted to go Assassin Rogue for at least three levels. Advantage to hit and auto-crits on surprise would be sweet. The Marilith Dex is top-notch, and if the new class would allow Stealth proficiency, that's even better.

[HoarsHalberd]

If it's only 4 levels. Fighter. ASI on polearm mastery, replace one long sword with a quarterstaff. Proceed to utterly annihilate every single melee foe that approaches. Full 20 levels. Barbarian or oathbreaker. Probably oathbreaker. Cha to damage, +1d8 to every attack. Then also get the polearm mastery and reaction/turn trick to get an utterly insane number of attacks.

[RickAllison]

I think you would get the full 20 levels. Levels and CR don't work well together. Would Warcaster + Polearm Master + Warlock 2 or 3 be anything dandy? Eldritch Blast with Agonizing and Repelling would deal quite decent damage while preventing any melee-users from surrounding the demon.

[pwykersotz]

I think you would get the full 20 levels.

...

Yer a boss monster, Harry!

[HoarsHalberd]

I think you would get the full 20 levels. Levels and CR don't work well together. Would Warcaster + Polearm Master + Warlock 2 or 3 be anything dandy? Eldritch Blast with Agonizing and Repelling would deal quite decent damage while preventing any melee-users from surrounding the demon.

Well that depends upon whether your table is playing spirit of the rules or RAW. (Even if you're doing RAW EB past level 5 is untenable because it isn't a single target spell.) A far less cheap combination would be using booming blade to add some D8s and discourage foes trying to run past you.

[MrStabby]

Well a one level dip of warlock for hex might be pretty good with 7 attacks. It is also a use of a bonus action that doesn't need the attack action (i.e. no conflict with multiattack).

Similar reasons for rogue 2 and cunning action - you will be a fearsome melee presence - getting to have a full melee round after dashing in might be nice

You have a decent number of hitpoints so a couple of levels of barbarian could be nice - reckless attack and rage resistances will make you hard to stop.

Fighter - champion with improved critical would be nice (and plays well with other sources of advantage).

[RickAllison]

Well a one level dip of warlock for hex might be pretty good with 7 attacks. It is also a use of a bonus action that doesn't need the attack action (i.e. no conflict with multiattack).

Similar reasons for rogue 2 and cunning action - you will be a fearsome melee presence - getting to have a full melee round after dashing in might be nice

You have a decent number of hitpoints so a couple of levels of barbarian could be nice - reckless attack and rage resistances will make you hard to stop.

Fighter - champion with improved critical would be nice (and plays well with other sources of advantage).

I like the way you think.

As an extension of this train of thought, are there any other monsters that seem particularly well-suited to certain class builds or could be both effective and flavorfully fun (like a Bladesinging dragon)? One that came to mind was the Planetar as an Assassin or a Champion. I ran the numbers with a switch from a greatsword to a rapier as an Assassin, and it looks like he would be looking at potentially 378 damage for the surprise round if Deathly Blows activates and 108.5 DPR after (assuming he gets SAs. With at-will Invisibility, he really should be...) and even only getting to really attack every other round would give him 54.25 with advantage. Seems like a decent output, but thoughts would be appreciated. Other options I've considered are:
Rakshasa Monk (greatsword damage for each unarmed attack and limited magical immunity; combination pre-approved by DM)
Purple Worm Barbarian (what else could he be? Plus, I like the idea of flying 40 ft in the air and dropping on top of several enemies for 4d12...)
Draconic Sorcerer Dragons (thematic, at least!)
Monk Dragons Change Shaped down into a T-Rex (optimized? No. Awesome? Hell yeah! Just make sure to use Strength for attacks and )
Aboleth Warlock (more for flavor)
Bladesinging (Viper Form) Guardian Naga (flavor)
Death Slaad Bard
Bladesinger Glabrezu
Barbarian Giants

EDIT: Also, is there any way to edit the thread title to represent the slight shift toward a more general topic?

[krugaan]

Expertise (athletics) and go nuts with grappling, lol

[RickAllison]

Expertise (athletics) and go nuts with grappling, lol

Storm Giant, Rogue 11+/anything. Strength (Athletics) eventually becomes at least 31 (Expertise at +6, Reliable Talent, +9 Strength) with the potential to get even higher if adjusted CR rises above 20. Carry a huge shortsword in one hand and DPR when not grappling becomes 40.5 (9d6+9) that can be raised higher with more levels.

[krugaan]

Yeah, but storm giants don't have 6 arms and a prehensile tail. Also, mariliths can wear girdles!

[Cazero]

"Every paladin and their mothers need to sell their souls in a warlock dip to be stronger" wasn't enough. We now present you a paladin who, out of the countless options available, chose to become a demon to keep on the fighting !
Get on with it ! Ignore the consequences ! Go wack some Evil !

[RickAllison]

Yeah, but storm giants don't have 6 arms and a prehensile tail. Also, mariliths can wear girdles!

That is indeed true. For a Marilith grappler, I feel that Hex/Hunter's Mark is a must. Champion 15/Rogue 1/Bladesinger 4 could be fun.

I ran the numbers on that Bladesinger Glabrezu, and he could get all the way to CR 25 at Bladesinger 17. With three ASIs, he ends up with an effective AC of 30 (20+5 and another +5 for Shield), 32d10+176 HP, a calculated average DPR of 228.333 (Bigby's Hand at 7th level using bonus action, Multiattack action to get the two attacks at 2d10+10 (Str+Int from Bladesinger) for each turn and then running Meteor Swarm for the 9th, Disintegrate at 8th, and then Disintegrate at 6th), and a +4 adjusted AC for the four saving throw bonuses and Magic Resistance. Hooray, that means with True Polymorph, he can then become anything except the Tarrasque. Seems like he would be fun as well. He kind of epitomizes a Bladesinger because he actually does both attack and cast spells together, but he does them at the same time! And if you didn't want to cast, he would have really decent damage just hitting with his fists in addition to the Pincers, which doesn't even get into putting weapons in those hands...

@Cazero, well, I didn't suggest any Paladin builds! :smallbiggrin: Just about everything except paladins, rangers, and clerics.
EDIT: Just realized that an earlier poster did suggest an Oathbreaker build. Of course if he is an Oathbreaker, it's not exactly out of character :smallwink:

[RickAllison]

For posterity, I will post the (hopefully) final build for the Glabrezu Bladesinger. If nothing else, it is a fun enemy a sadistic DM could use against his party.

Erkthang, the Glabrezu Bladesinger
Large fiend (demon), chaotic evil (unless True Polymorphed into this form)
Bladesinger 18/Fighter 2; 3 ASIs and the Resilient (Dexterity) feat.
Armor Class: 26 (natural armor, Mariner or Defense Fighting Style), 31 with Shield
Hit Points: 367 (35d10+175), 401 with 5th-level False Life and Second Wind
Speed: 40 ft (and swim 40 ft, climb 40 ft if Mariner is allowed).
STR: 20 (+5); DEX: 20 (+5); CON: 21 (+5); INT: 20 (+5); WIS: 18 (+4); CHA: 16 (+3)
Saving Throws: Str +14, Dex +14, Con +14, Wis +13, Cha +12 (5 bonuses, +4 effective AC)
Damage Resistances: cold, fire, lightning; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical weapons.
Damage Immunities: poison.
Condition Immunities: poison.
Senses: truesight 120 ft., passive Perception 13.
Languages: Abyssal, telepathy 120 ft.
Challenge: 30 (155,000 XP).
Innate Spellcasting (Int):
At will: Darkness, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic
1/day each: Confusion, Fly, Power Word Stun
Magic Resistance (+2 effective AC)
Spellcasting: Erkthang is an 18th-level spellcaster (Int, +14 to hit, save DC 22) with the following spells prepared.
1st (4 slots): Shield, False Life
2nd (3 slots):
3rd (3 slots): Fireball or Lightning Bolt
4th (3 slots):
5th (3 slots): Animate Objects
6th (1 slot): Disintegrate
7th (1 slot):
8th (1 slot):
9th (1 slot): Meteor Swarm
Second Wind
Action Surge

Actions:
Multiattack: Makes two attacks with pincers and casts one spell.
Pincer. Melee weapon attack, reach 10 ft., one target. 21 (2d10+10) bludgeoning damage. If the target is a Medium or smaller creature, it is grappled (escape DC 15). Erkthang has two pincers, each of which can grapple only one target.

I would be happy to answer any questions about the build if others are curious, else it will just kind of be here. Erkthang ended up with 30 as both his offensive and defensive CR. By HP, the temporary points boosted him above DCR 21, with the effective AC 37 adjusting that upward 9 steps. Offensively, it was all due to high calculated DPR:
To maximize the DPR, the formula contains three parts: the pincer attacks from Multiattack, the spell that accompanies the pincer attacks, and finally the bonus action attack. The rules to keep in mind are that the DPR is calculated as the average over three rounds, and that AoE attacks are considered to affect two enemies (based on the rules for dragon breath weapons).

The pincer attacks are the simplest. 2d10+Str+Int from Bladesinger gives an average of 21, so 42 for both attacks. Additionally, Action Surge gives one round with a second action, which will also get a Multiattack and so another 42. For simplicity, this will be on the third turn. The baseline at this point is 42/42/84.

Next, we add in the bonus action attack. Using Animate Objects cast at 8th level, we can get 16 Tiny creatures with damage of 6.5 (1d4+4), which results in a total of 104 DPR. The turn damage is now 146/146/188.

Finally, we have the spells. The first turn will use Meteor Swarm, using the 9th level slot, to deal 280 (2*(20d6+20d6)) damage. The second turn will use a 5th spell slot to cast either Fireball or Lightning Bolt, dealing 70 (2*10d6) damage to clear out any clumped together groups of heroes. Finally, the third turn will have double casting of Disintegrate in the 7th and 6th slots using the Action Surge Multiattack to deal 85.5 (13d6+40) and 75 (10d6+40) damage to any survivors. This gives the three turn damage as 426/216/348.5 or 330.17 DPR.