Melf/ Peralay

[Suteinu]

After the fun I had transferring the pregenerated PC's from the Basic Red Book to 5E, I've decided to do the same with the line of D&D action figures, released circa 1983, that were first statted out in (oft inaccurate) AD&D 1st Ed terms in the module, The Quest for the Heartstone, and the supplement, The Shady Dragon Inn.

I have a few done already, but there is one with which I'd like y'all's input, you ol'Giants, you! Peralay, referred to as Melf in some resources, is a bitof a conundrum. He is listed as a "Fighter Mage," and a "10th level Lord Wizard." He wields a longbow, a sword, and a dagger, wears full chain mail, carries a shield, and can cast spells of up to 5th level. And, justto make it tidy, he is expressly referred to in the latter publication as a wood elf.

So, what may be the most faithful interpretation? Fighter/ Wizard? Bladesinger? The Eldritch Knight? Something totally else? What thinkest y'all?

Ye all?

[Kane0]

Sounds like a fighter 1 / wizard 9 to me. Weapons, armor & 5th level spells.
Wood elf with the warcaster feat taken at wiz 4 or 8 for the other bits and pieces.

Probably a conjurer based off his spells, but could be an evoker too.

[MaxWilson]

Consider the possibility of Fighter 1/Bladelock 9. Will get you a more martial character than the wizard variant, which sounds like it might fit the description.

[MeeposFire]

Considering RAW level limits of 1e or using what the elf actually was in old D&D (which was a race as a class that was a fighter mage combo) an EK oddly would be about right honestly.

HOwever a number of people will probably take issue with that since they probably want more casting so I guess they can go with some combo of fighter and wizard levels.

[Petrocorus]

A Wood Elf mage is already proficient with sword and longbow. So, that don't really give any clue.
He cast 5th level spells at ECL 10, so he's forcibly a Wizard, a Sorcerer or a Warlock, not an EK.
He wear a full chain mail and cast spell with it, so he's proficient with full armor, so he forcibly has some level in Fighter, Paladin or Cleric with an appropriate Domain. Lets discard the last possibility, since it doesn't fit the fluff at all.

So to met this criterias, he needs to be multiclassed with Fighter / Paladin on one side and Wizard / Sorcerer / Warlock on the other.

In ADD1, Sorcerer and Warlock didn't exist, and Elves could not be Paladin. So, to fit both the design of ADD1 and the rules of DD5, he must be a Fighter 1 / Wizard 9.
In theory, he could be of any Tradition, but indeed Bladesinger is the one that make more sense in the context. As Kane0 said, Conjurer or Evoker would make sense also if he's indeed the famous Melf.

[MeeposFire]

A Wood Elf mage is already proficient with sword and longbow. So, that don't really give any clue.
He cast 5th level spells at ECL 10, so he's forcibly a Wizard, a Sorcerer or a Warlock, not an EK.
He wear a full chain mail and cast spell with it, so he's proficient with full armor, so he forcibly has some level in Fighter, Paladin or Cleric with an appropriate Domain. Lets discard the last possibility, since it doesn't fit the fluff at all.

So to met this criterias, he needs to be multiclassed with Fighter / Paladin on one side and Wizard / Sorcerer / Warlock on the other.

In ADD1, Sorcerer and Warlock didn't exist, and Elves could not be Paladin. So, to fit both the design of ADD1 and the rules of DD5, he must be a Fighter 1 / Wizard 9.
In theory, he could be of any Tradition, but indeed Bladesinger is the one that make more sense in the context. As Kane0 said, Conjurer or Evoker would make sense also if he's indeed the famous Melf.

The original elf class that this seems to be based on had a wizard progression of spells and had full access to weapons and armor. However its standard level limit was I think 10th level and thus was limited to fifth level spells.


Due note that getting to 10th level as an elf took WAY more XP than other classes due to its dual nature.

If you are wanting to use an AD&D inspired character he would be a multiclass fighter/mage but with significant level limits.

No matter what you choose you will have to make sacrifices when trying to translate this character because there are major changes between D&D/AD&D and 5e if you are trying to mimic every little detail.

For instance often times an elf in D&D tended to act like a warrior most of the time and only casts a spell when it makes sense (like when you see a group of enemies and you use fireball). Spell slots were at a premium and elves were behind wizards in levels making spell slots lower level and less of them. Honestly I mentioned EK because it actually shows off what an elf back then used to actually play like. The only thing it really is missing are 5th level spells.

To get that you would probably go for 11 levels of fighter and 9 levels of wizard (conjuration just due to the fact one of his famous spells is melf's acid arrow). This would give the strong warrior part that the elf class used to give you while getting the 5th level spells that you desire for authenticity.


To me elves and 1e fighter/mages tended to be warriors most of the time with spells used as needed rather than casters first due to their lower level and less spell slots so this build tries to keep that going.

EDIT Note that a 10th level elf could be running around with level 32 characters in D&D so 10th level is highest level you can get.

[Suteinu]

Thanks a bunch, everyboody!

I'm reckoning I'll go with the Ftr 1/ Wiz 9 build. He's noted as a powerful enough magic-user under the name of Melf to later on be a member of Mordenkainen's Circle of Eight, and a developer of at least one spell (if only I could remember it's name, hmmmmm...) I don't see him as much of a Bladesinger, so probably a Conjourer or Evoker is most appropriate. Also in my research, I've found that he should probably have the Performance skill, as he was punished for some transgression for a year and a day by having to dance and sing every morning!

Did any of you guys own any of these action figures? How would you build them based on how you played (or your impression of them, if you just kept them in their boxes?)

[choryukami]

Bladesinger? Since elves have proficiency in weapons by themselves. Just a level 10 wizard.

[eastmabl]

Bladesinger? Since elves have proficiency in weapons by themselves. Just a level 10 wizard.

But armor proficiency is lacking. Are you suggesting that 5e Melf is spending feats on armor proficiency?

[Daehron]

Could be wearing Elven Chain and a Mithral shield. Those allow wearers to still use arcane magic in prior additions.

The only hang up for translating into 5th would be the shield. Elven chain shirt grants proficiency. Wood elf grants proficiency in long/short swords and bows. So a 10th level wood elf wizard with elven chain, long sword and long bow is not a stretch.

[eastmabl]

I would probably say that Melf is a level 14 character since levels don't exactly match anymore.

I'd hazard that maybe he's a 9th level wizard/5th level eldritch knight. This provides him with the fighting man skills, along with the fifth level spells that he would have a lord wizard.

[Suteinu]

I considered Bladesinger, but decided against it because the feel is wrong, in my opinion. (See how I spelled that out in stead of typing "imo?") Besides, not every elvish warrior/ magic-user type is a Bladesinger. Even among the best, Bladesingers are supposed to be a breed apart, rarer than "a perfect knight."

In AD&D and other following editions, versions of Melf have largely been about 50/50 in Ftr/ Wiz levels. This is a reflection, I think, of the Basic-based idea that the elf's Fighter and spellcasting abilities would advance together. As pointed out, 5E doesn't exactly reflect this pound-for-pound. Because of the Proficiency bonus, which applies to combat checks, and spellcasting abilities, the Ftr 1/ Wiz (the rest) reflects the feel of this ol'pro best. However, if he were to take more Ftr levels, I'd probably go with Battle Master to reflect the elvish tendancy to lnow how to do pretty much anything, w/ centuries of technique trumping brute force.

[MeeposFire]

I considered Bladesinger, but decided against it because the feel is wrong, in my opinion. (See how I spelled that out in stead of typing "imo?") Besides, not every elvish warrior/ magic-user type is a Bladesinger. Even among the best, Bladesingers are supposed to be a breed apart, rarer than "a perfect knight."

In AD&D and other following editions, versions of Melf have largely been about 50/50 in Ftr/ Wiz levels. This is a reflection, I think, of the Basic-based idea that the elf's Fighter and spellcasting abilities would advance together. As pointed out, 5E doesn't exactly reflect this pound-for-pound. Because of the Proficiency bonus, which applies to combat checks, and spellcasting abilities, the Ftr 1/ Wiz (the rest) reflects the feel of this ol'pro best. However, if he were to take more Ftr levels, I'd probably go with Battle Master to reflect the elvish tendancy to lnow how to do pretty much anything, w/ centuries of technique trumping brute force.

In AD&D a fighter/mage improves by splitting XP equally between the classes so they both normally have the same XP value. IN some cases such as at low levels they will be equal. This does not hold all the time for instance by the time a mage is 9th level the fighter part would be level 8, however when the wizard is at 17th level the fighter is at 19th level.

So it really depends at what XP value you are talking.

[Malifice]

Melf was a Wizard/ Fighter MC.

The name 'Melf' was due to the player not actually having a name for the character. About 5 sessions in Gygax asked for his name, and he looked down at his character sheet and saw (in the sex and race sections) 'M' and 'Elf'. Hence the moniker Melf.

Rary (now retconned as one of the circle of eight and a powerful archmage) was only played to 3rd level before being retired. His player wanted to get to third level as back in those days, levels had titles attached. At third level as a Magic User, you got the title 'medium'.

So: 'Medium rary' :smallbiggrin:

Melf never reached high level in Gygaxes Castle Greyhawk campaign. 10th at best. Rob Kuntz character Robilar was the highest level PC in that campaign (and he was a Fighter) at around 20th. He was also the second PC to reach the final level and confront Zagyg. I think (from memory) the Cleric Digby or Rigby made it down there first (both Digby and Rigby being related to Bigby or played by the same player, I cant remember which).

Mordenkainen wasnt in that campaign (because he was Gygaxes character!) but was high level also.

What I wouldnt give to be a part of that first campaign! Technically Blackmoor was first from memory with Castle Greyhawk being Gygaxes home campaign.

[Suteinu]

In AD&D a fighter/mage improves by splitting XP equally between the classes so they both normally have the same XP value. IN some cases such as at low levels they will be equal. This does not hold all the time for instance by the time a mage is 9th level the fighter part would be level 8, however when the wizard is at 17th level the fighter is at 19th level.

So it really depends at what XP value you are talking.



True, but the NPC stats from back in the day don't always reflect that. Simplicity born of trying to do things quickly, I guess. 'Course, that's how we got the Truenamer, too ...

[MeeposFire]

Melf was a Wizard/ Fighter MC.

The name 'Melf' was due to the player not actually having a name for the character. About 5 sessions in Gygax asked for his name, and he looked down at his character sheet and saw (in the sex and race sections) 'M' and 'Elf'. Hence the moniker Melf.

Rary (now retconned as one of the circle of eight and a powerful archmage) was only played to 3rd level before being retired. His player wanted to get to third level as back in those days, levels had titles attached. At third level as a Magic User, you got the title 'medium'.

So: 'Medium rary' :smallbiggrin:

Melf never reached high level in Gygaxes Castle Greyhawk campaign. 10th at best. Rob Kuntz character Robilar was the highest level PC in that campaign (and he was a Fighter) at around 20th. He was also the second PC to reach the final level and confront Zagyg. I think (from memory) the Cleric Digby or Rigby made it down there first (both Digby and Rigby being related to Bigby or played by the same player, I cant remember which).

Mordenkainen wasnt in that campaign (because he was Gygaxes character!) but was high level also.

What I wouldnt give to be a part of that first campaign! Technically Blackmoor was first from memory with Castle Greyhawk being Gygaxes home campaign.

Essentially what became known as Blackmoor (and Mystara!) was first as Arneson's work. He apparently pioneered a lot of being a character type concepts whereas Gygax was much better at codifying rules and actually keeping track of them (Arneson's work apparently was very good but VERY hard to figure out as his notes were all over the place and Gygax had to essentially translate them into rules text to make any sense).

[eastmabl]

Melf was a Wizard/ Fighter MC.

The name 'Melf' was due to the player not actually having a name for the character. About 5 sessions in Gygax asked for his name, and he looked down at his character sheet and saw (in the sex and race sections) 'M' and 'Elf'. Hence the moniker Melf.

Rary (now retconned as one of the circle of eight and a powerful archmage) was only played to 3rd level before being retired. His player wanted to get to third level as back in those days, levels had titles attached. At third level as a Magic User, you got the title 'medium'.

So: 'Medium rary' :smallbiggrin:

Melf never reached high level in Gygaxes Castle Greyhawk campaign. 10th at best. Rob Kuntz character Robilar was the highest level PC in that campaign (and he was a Fighter) at around 20th. He was also the second PC to reach the final level and confront Zagyg. I think (from memory) the Cleric Digby or Rigby made it down there first (both Digby and Rigby being related to Bigby or played by the same player, I cant remember which).

Mordenkainen wasnt in that campaign (because he was Gygaxes character!) but was high level also.

What I wouldnt give to be a part of that first campaign! Technically Blackmoor was first from memory with Castle Greyhawk being Gygaxes home campaign.

If you want an interesting read about the roots of D&D that is not as dry as the equally enlighting "Playing At The World," try "Hawk & Moor." Kent David Kelly has seven books about the history of D&D - three of which can be purchased in dead-tree format.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NQTGFCY?keywords=hawk%20and%20moor&qid=1455735825&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2

[Malifice]

If you want an interesting read about the roots of D&D that is not as dry as the equally enlighting "Playing At The World," try "Hawk & Moor." Kent David Kelly has seven books about the history of D&D - three of which can be purchased in dead-tree format.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NQTGFCY?keywords=hawk%20and%20moor&qid=1455735825&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2

I'm totes inserting a city called Hawkmoor in my next campaign setting.

Or naming my next PC that.

[Beleriphon]

Thanks a bunch, everyboody!

I'm reckoning I'll go with the Ftr 1/ Wiz 9 build. He's noted as a powerful enough magic-user under the name of Melf to later on be a member of Mordenkainen's Circle of Eight, and a developer of at least one spell (if only I could remember it's name, hmmmmm...) I don't see him as much of a Bladesinger, so probably a Conjourer or Evoker is most appropriate. Also in my research, I've found that he should probably have the Performance skill, as he was punished for some transgression for a year and a day by having to dance and sing every morning!

Melf's Acid Arrow.

[Syll]

Melf was a Wizard/ Fighter MC.

The name 'Melf' was due to the player not actually having a name for the character. About 5 sessions in Gygax asked for his name, and he looked down at his character sheet and saw (in the sex and race sections) 'M' and 'Elf'. Hence the moniker Melf.

Rary (now retconned as one of the circle of eight and a powerful archmage) was only played to 3rd level before being retired. His player wanted to get to third level as back in those days, levels had titles attached. At third level as a Magic User, you got the title 'medium'.

So: 'Medium rary' :smallbiggrin:

Melf never reached high level in Gygaxes Castle Greyhawk campaign. 10th at best. Rob Kuntz character Robilar was the highest level PC in that campaign (and he was a Fighter) at around 20th. He was also the second PC to reach the final level and confront Zagyg. I think (from memory) the Cleric Digby or Rigby made it down there first (both Digby and Rigby being related to Bigby or played by the same player, I cant remember which).

Mordenkainen wasnt in that campaign (because he was Gygaxes character!) but was high level also.

What I wouldnt give to be a part of that first campaign! Technically Blackmoor was first from memory with Castle Greyhawk being Gygaxes home campaign.

I had no idea that that was where the origins of those names came from; that's really cool. Thanks for posting that.

[Suteinu]

If you want an interesting read about the roots of D&D that is not as dry as the equally enlighting "Playing At The World," try "Hawk & Moor." Kent David Kelly has seven books about the history of D&D - three of which can be purchased in dead-tree format.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NQTGFCY?keywords=hawk%20and%20moor&qid=1455735825&ref_=sr_1_2&sr=8-2



Anpther good book is Of Dice and Men, by David Ewalt. I got a copy this past Christmas. Great read, great stories, solid respurce; really enjoyed it!

[goto124]

The name 'Melf' was due to the player not actually having a name for the character. About 5 sessions in Gygax asked for his name, and he looked down at his character sheet and saw (in the sex and race sections) 'M' and 'Elf'. Hence the moniker Melf.

http://i.imgur.com/QoiBuLr.jpg

[The1exile]

Melf's Acid Arrow.

Also Melf's Minute Meteors.

[eastmabl]

Anpther good book is Of Dice and Men, by David Ewalt. I got a copy this past Christmas. Great read, great stories, solid respurce; really enjoyed it!

Yet another book in this vein is Empire of Imagination. While technically a biography, it's written in with a different point of view than most other similar books. I liked it as well.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1632862794?keywords=gygax&qid=1455805373&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

Also, the TSR chapter of Designers and Dragons is really quite stellar.

http://www.amazon.com/Designers-Dragons-The-Shannon-Appelcline/dp/1613170750/ref=pd_sim_14_9?ie=UTF8&dpID=510bN9LgGmL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR107%2C160_&refRID=1YMDWQ69JSG8DTK5MASB

[eastmabl]

Melf's Acid Arrow.


Also Melf's Minute Meteors.

I'm AFB right now, but I seem to recall that you can find a number of spells created by the Greyhawk mages in the AD&D sourcebook Greyhawk Adventures. There are more than these two, I believe.

His acid arrow has had the most staying power.

[Suteinu]

Looking further down the line or characters, I found a couple of things:

- There seems to be an overlap of Basic/ Expert D&D and AD&D, first indicated when I noticed that the Halfling was credited with levels of ... Halfling. Gonna have to take that into consideration.
- One character has what is labled as a mace +1, but is described as a staff-length haft with a small mace head at each end. How do you think I should treat this weapon?
- What are some good ways to treat the classic D&D Witch in 5E?

[Malifice]

I had no idea that that was where the origins of those names came from; that's really cool. Thanks for posting that.

If you like that, have a read of this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk).

Just picturing that campaign makes me want to be in it so bad.

I was wrong - only Robilar, Tenser and and Terik made it to the lowest level of Castle Greyhawk.

Re Melf - here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melf)is some of his bio.

[MeeposFire]

Looking further down the line or characters, I found a couple of things:

- There seems to be an overlap of Basic/ Expert D&D and AD&D, first indicated when I noticed that the Halfling was credited with levels of ... Halfling. Gonna have to take that into consideration.
- One character has what is labled as a mace +1, but is described as a staff-length haft with a small mace head at each end. How do you think I should treat this weapon?
- What are some good ways to treat the classic D&D Witch in 5E?

I had a hunch at some point basic type D&D was coming into play. The elf class is essentially like a fighter/mage in AD&D 1e where you can use all weapons, armor, spells up to 5th level, and most of the fighter special abilities (assuming the "standard" rules and not some optional ideas).

Sounds like a variation of the staff mace. That item allowed you to use the staff like a mace but with staff proficiency. It was often used by druids who wanted a better magical one handed bludgeoning weapon so they could use a shield.


Which D&D witch is which? I would need to know more about what you are looking for. Off the top of my head I can only recall the AD&D witch kit from the complete wizards handbook but there are probably others.

[Suteinu]

I had a hunch at some point basic type D&D was coming into play. The elf class is essentially like a fighter/mage in AD&D 1e ...

Sounds like a variation of the staff mace ...


Which D&D witch is which?



Yeah, some is based on Basic, alright. 1983, when the action figures and the Quest for the Heartstone module were released, was a time in which there was some overlap of such things, and as these stats were developed to represent what my wofe refers to as "dolls," they were probably not too picky. The action figures didn't come woth stats; they were presented in the aforementioned module and another supplement.

Never heard of a staff-mace before, but going by your description of its use, sounds most like a 5E quarterstaff.

As to which witch is which, I think the kit from the Wizards' handbook you mentioned from AD&D 2E is the best way to go. I think I still have a copy somewhere, I think ...

[MeeposFire]

Yeah, some is based on Basic, alright. 1983, when the action figures and the Quest for the Heartstone module were released, was a time in which there was some overlap of such things, and as these stats were developed to represent what my wofe refers to as "dolls," they were probably not too picky. The action figures didn't come woth stats; they were presented in the aforementioned module and another supplement.

Never heard of a staff-mace before, but going by your description of its use, sounds most like a 5E quarterstaff.

As to which witch is which, I think the kit from the Wizards' handbook you mentioned from AD&D 2E is the best way to go. I think I still have a copy somewhere, I think ...

The staff mace was used in several editions (and video games like Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2). I believe in at least one iteration id deals 2d4 damage and is a +2 weapon that can be wielded like a staff but only requires 1 hand to wield.

5es use of the quarterstaff as being one handed already makes most of the benefit moot though you could stat it as a quarter staff that deals more damage than normal (d8 one handed, d10 two handed) maybe only +1 since +2 is pretty powerful now (but I could go either way).

That witch mostly had abilities that related to the creation of minor magical items such as potions and the like. I could see if I can find it.

[Sigreid]

I'd probably make him a valor bard. Has all the toys you're talking about, but a bit more casting.