Pistolero vs Bolt Ace

[Jeargroth]

Ok, so I am trying to make jump from 3.5 to Pathfinder and stumble upon FIRE ARMS. OMG. I squeeked in delight. I love the addition and have been reading Handbook after hand book after forum posting after forum posting regarding the Gunslinger class. However, I am trying to see who has the greater utility and face it Optimized damage.

I am seeing the Pistolero with their dual wield coming out on top for extra attacks, but if I am reading it right, the class doesn't start to shine until later lvl when they get Pistol twirling for free reload. Where as the Bolt Ace has the better damage up front, especially if using Mino Double cross bow, but then peaks early too. Am I looking at these right? or are there other opinions that I and the great Google haven't found yet?

thanks.

[Extra Anchovies]

The Gunslinger class, and the Paizo firearm system as a whole, can easily unbalance a game - combat feats are balanced with the assumption that most weapon attacks are made against normal AC, so a class that makes most of their weapon attacks against touch AC causes some balance issues. With that in mind, I'd recommend Bolt Ace - they make crossbows function pretty much on par with normal bows, which is neat. Bolt Ace Gunslinger 5 into Sentinel (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/sentinel) of Abadar makes for a pretty darn good crossbow user, or you can stay single-classed.

If you and your table don't mind introducing Paizo firearms, Pistolero is decent - definitely better than Bolt Ace, because {targeting touch AC} > {most other things}. If you want to gun-TWF, though, skip Gun Twirling and play a Vanara (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-vanaras) - passing an item between grasping appendages is a free action, so you can reload by moving a gun to your tail, reloading the other gun with your free hand, returning the tail-gun to your free hand, and repeating the process with the other gun. Tieflings with the Prehensile Tail alternate racial trait can also do this, but Vanara have better ability modifiers for a Gunslinger.

[The Random NPC]

You could try retraining, start as a Bold Ace and retrain to Pistolero.

[Anlashok]

The Gunslinger class, and the Paizo firearm system as a whole, can easily unbalance a game

This, with the caveat that if you're used to moderately or well optimized 3.5 martials gunslingers aren't really a problem. Or moderately to well optimized Pathfinder archers or THFers.

[N. Jolly]

I'm a huge fan of bolt ace over pistolero. Pistols are guns, and paizo gun rules? Not great. Crossbows have a lot of in built support that guns don't, they play nicer in most games (gms rarely 'ban' crossbows), and the damage potential is a lot more steady instead of dealing with misfires.

Both really peak at the same point, as there's not much reason to take GS/BA 6+, but that just gives them tons of potential in multiclassing, something that's probably the most fun part of the class.

[Jeargroth]

The is the crux of the issue as I see it... Guns hit Touch AC but have missfire chance and high costs. Bolts don't misfire and are cheap but have to hit AC which can be an issue on High AC targets.

I am sure i can get guns to the table, because if people are going to ban fire arms then i would say ban, Wizards, Sorcerers and any other tier 1 or tier 0 classes. As far as i can see slingers are good for one thing single target DPR. They can do a little AoE but the close range required is rather limiting.

Btw. N. Jolly, Read your guide to being the Boss and loved it. Read it a couple times now and keep going back to try and see how i can optimize either build.

[Florian]

The is the crux of the issue as I see it... Guns hit Touch AC but have missfire chance and high costs. Bolts don't misfire and are cheap but have to hit AC which can be an issue on High AC targets.

I am sure i can get guns to the table, because if people are going to ban fire arms then i would say ban, Wizards, Sorcerers and any other tier 1 or tier 0 classes. As far as i can see slingers are good for one thing single target DPR. They can do a little AoE but the close range required is rather limiting.

Btw. N. Jolly, Read your guide to being the Boss and loved it. Read it a couple times now and keep going back to try and see how i can optimize either build.

Don´t get fooled. Gunslingers and some other classes have the single-target DPR market covered so hard, regular Bestiary critters simply don´t have a chance when you uses an unoptimized build here.

Truth be told, staying single class here is neither fun not does it provide anything. The question rather is what you gain by switching class later on, what synergies there are and what you could gain to enhance your power and versatility. That should govern your choice.

Entering Magus and (Ranged) Spell Strike will need base crit chance, not multiplier, so that would mostly mean Bolt Ace.
Very good Switch-Hitting can be done with Gunslinger and Slayer, meaning keeping your DEX reasonably low but gaining very solid results.
Pistol and Blade can be reached by combining Pistoleer with a certain Barbarian archetype and also provides very good result.

As you can see, the real question is not where to start, but where to end up with.

[Jeargroth]

I can see the benifet of Multi-classing, but would the loss of Signature Deed (11) be too hard a pill to swallow or is the grit recovery from kills and crits enough to get by?

[Florian]

I can see the benifet of Multi-classing, but would the loss of Signature Deed (11) be too hard a pill to swallow or is the grit recovery from kills and crits enough to get by?

This being no weapon mastery class, let me give you a vey dry sounding "yes"

[Jeargroth]

This being no weapon mastery class, let me give you a vey dry sounding "yes"

Yes its too hard a pill to swallow? Or the Grit recovery mechanic is enough to off set thw Signature deed costs?

Not sure what you mean by weapon mastery class i am new to PF but fairly literate in 3.5.

[Florian]

Yes its too hard a pill to swallow? Or the Grit recovery mechanic is enough to off set thw Signature deed costs?

Not sure what you mean by weapon mastery class i am new to PF but fairly literate in 3.5.

Weapon/Armor Mastery are Fighter things and the gold standard right now concerning weapon-based classes. Anything that doesn´t hold up to that can simply be thrown away and forgotten, anything that can hold up can be considered to more than solid.

(3.5 Fighters and PF Fighters are vastly different beasts right now)

[Jeargroth]

Great, more new mechanics... I will have to reseach these things.

So a Level 19 or 20 ability of a straight class is the gold standard? Unless i am missing (and probably am) some rule that gives it sooner or as a Multi class.

[Florian]

Great, more new mechanics... I will have to reseach these things.

Edit: Sorry, the naming here is confusing. Fighter have Armor Training X and Weapon Training X. Working on that will lead you to mastery and can be attained when X = 2. That has nothing to do with the end-game features.

To give you a leg up on this: Some classes, like the Gunslinger or Swashbuckler and some of their respective archetypes, gain scaled-down versions of the base Fighter class features, as they are "sibling" classes. Scaled-down in the sense that they basically work identical (Like +1 to hit and damage) but can´t be expanded on like the Fighter class manages to.

That is what has to be compared here. A Gunslinger with a Firearm/Crossbow starts out better then a Fighter with the same load-out, but once the Fighters class features really kick in, he will outperform the Gunslinger. That is the point when you should branch out with your class selection.

[Jeargroth]

I get your meaning and i see in the jump out for Slingers are level 5/7 or 11.


Anybody have suggestions as there seem to be more options in Pathfinder than 3.5.

Meaning alot of my beloved classes have been heavily altered for what i can see is better balancing.

[Florian]

Anybody have suggestions as there seem to be more options in Pathfinder than 3.5.

Meaning alot of my beloved classes have been heavily altered for what i can see is better balancing.

Jupp. Martial classes now have raw performance that can be a bit intimidating. They still lack the options of pure casters, but what they bring to the battlefield is nothing to be sneezed at.


To remind you, you can combine two or more archetypes on a base class. Adding the Mysterious Stranger archetype shifts your Grit Pool from WIS to CHA, important for what comes next.

If you want to stay purely martial, you have got two good options:
- Cavalier (Luring Cavalier archetype)
- Slayer

If you want to stick with WIS, you have a very good and powerful option:
- Warpriest

If you go Mysterious Stranger and want to stick with CHA, you have two prime options here:
- Paladin (Divine Hunter archetype)
- Magus (Eldritch Scion/Eldritch Archer archetype)

Personally speaking, I´d switch after Gunslinger 5 and give either the Paladin or Warpriest a go as those are rock-solid choices.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Just to throw out another idea, have you considered a Crossbowman Fighter using Overwatch Style? This lets you play a medieval X-COM character by fighting entirely with readied actions. At level 3 you get half of your dexterity bonus on these readied attacks improving to full dex to damage at level 11. With the Overwatch Style feat chain you're getting multiple ranged attacks per level on top of additional damage bonuses for playing a Fighter.

Consider this human build:

1. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow)
2. Rapid Shot
3. Weapon Focus (Heavy Crossbow)
4. Crossbow Mastery, retrain Rapid Shot (Heavy Crossbow)
5. Overwatch Style
6. Deadly Aim

You'll be a very SAD (Dexterity) build, so if you can swing a 22 Dexterity by level 6 you'll have two 1d10+9 ranged attacks with a +1 Heavy Crossbow or three 1d10+6 attacks. Damage keeps scaling up pretty quickly, especially at level 11 when you get full dexterity-to-damage and can make 4 ranged readied attacks thanks to Overwatch Vortex.



I can see the benifet of Multi-classing, but would the loss of Signature Deed (11) be too hard a pill to swallow or is the grit recovery from kills and crits enough to get by?

You can't pick Up Close and Deadly with Signature deed, so you won't be getting those extra d6 rolls on every attack. Your choice is to either leave Pistolero at level 5 with a 2d6 bonus and dex to damage or to keep progressing for extra dice as the rest of your class features are mediocre. I generally prefer going with another class after level 5 or even forgoing the Gunslinger entirely for other options with a gun.

[Jeargroth]

I pretty much have to forgoe all i know about 3.5 and treat pathfinder as a completely different system. They may share a common ancestor, but its like comparing a neanderthal to a human. I will have to further delve into the entire system. Esspecially given that crossbow fighter was NEVER a even mediocre option in 3.5.

However, the entire touch AC to hit is really big for a Slinger and given costs of Guns in game, thought slinger was the way to go.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I pretty much have to forgoe all i know about 3.5 and treat pathfinder as a completely different system. They may share a common ancestor, but its like comparing a neanderthal to a human. I will have to further delve into the entire system. Esspecially given that crossbow fighter was NEVER a even mediocre option in 3.5.

However, the entire touch AC to hit is really big for a Slinger and given costs of Guns in game, thought slinger was the way to go.

Pathfinder has really evolved over the years and is an entirely new beast now. While you still have trap options in the system, overall every one of its 38 classes are actually playable. A few are a bit boring, but after the updates from Pathfinder Unchained none of them are a class that exists only for single level dipping like we had in 3.5.

If you're interested in guns then I suggest a bit of dipping. I personally find the Gunslinger class rather boring and the mechanics of gun play can be found in many classes. Here are a few ideas:

Gene Starwind: Wizard (Spellslinger) 1 / Magus (Arcane Archer) 19
You can fire bullets or magic from your gun, casting a ranged touch spell as part of a full attack action and delivering it through your gun.

Sterling Archer: Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) 1 / Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1 / Investigator (Slueth) 18
You get to combine a Luck, Panache and Grit pool into one super pool with a ton of ways to refresh the pool. Spend a point of "Grit" to gain charisma to damage with your gun attacks. Pick up the Inspired Blade feat for dexterity to damage with a rapier. Gain half your Investigator level as an attack and damage bonus via Studied Combat. High Charisma and Intelligence, moderate Dexterity for a great build.

Holy Gunslinger: Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) 1 / Paladin (Holy Gun) 19
A very charisma focused build, you can either use Focused Aim for charisma to damage on all attacks for the round or smiting shot for charisma plus your paladin level on a single shot. At level 11 you get double your charisma modifier to your Grit pool.

[Jeargroth]

So this thread has taken an interesting turn. Not sure if it deseves a restart due to the evolution from the original line of questioning or not. Will tey here and see if it works if not I will restart.

So, having decided I definitely want Fire Arms, and that a Multi class is probably for the best i am left with paths and not sure how to proceed.

Gunslinger paladin...

Gunslinger Warpriest...

Gunslinger Cavalier...

So any input playgrounders could give would be great. There is a loss of function i feel with first but great synergy. Warpriest still little confusing, and cavalier diesnt have spells just a fee tactics and a situationally useful mount.

Thanks in advance.

[Florian]

Gunslinger paladin...

Gunslinger Warpriest...

Gunslinger Cavalier...

So any input playgrounders could give would be great. There is a loss of function i feel with first but great synergy. Warpriest still little confusing, and cavalier diesnt have spells just a fee tactics and a situationally useful mount.

Gunslinger (Musket Master)/Cavalier (Luring Cavalier/Musketeer):

The main appeal here is twofold. Cavaliers have a very handy "smite all" feature and the crit results with a x4 multiplier are simply gruesome. After the basic ranged combat feats, you will want to branch out into Combat Reflexes, feats that grant the ability to make ranged attacks of opportunity, like Snap-Shot, and teamwork feats that allow your team members to trigger those AoO for you, like Broken Wing Gambit. You´ll want to round that out with Vital Strike, Quick Draw and Overwatch Style.

Gunslinger/Warpriest:

The Warpriest class is a "true gish", meaning you can cast and fight with the same action.
The appeal here has an easy and a hard component to explain.
The easy part is that you want to have access to quick-cast self-buffs that work straight with your weapons and stack up because of type, like Divine Favor and Divine Power. You´ll round that out by using various means to conduct Fervor and Channel Energy through your firearm for a straight upgrade in damage.
For the hard part, we´d actually have to get into discussing specific deities and what they can bring to this mix with exclusive feats and spells.

(For example, I prefer a rather STR-over-DEX-focused Switch Hitter here, using pistol and katana, following Shizuru, goddess of Honor)

Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger)/Paladin (Holy Gun), possibly VMC Oracle:

Like with the Cavalier, this also revolves around using Smite and the x4 multiplier to deal more than devastating damage. The Paladin part of this mix also offers incredible self-healing powers, so you can expect to survive even the hardest fights, as long as hitpoint damage is involved.
This can be combined with VMC Oracle to Lifelink with your teammates. You take their damage while standing in the rear and using your Firearm, relying on your self-healing to see all of you through.

[N. Jolly]

Warpriest still little confusing

Perhaps this could help? (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-nEbro_tLQ0ILxUd4vmht46-d6nbLk0RUbSRO5xUgvo/edit?usp=sharing)

[Jeargroth]

I think i have settled on an ideal buld, but as usual feed back is always welcome, esspecially given my newness to PF.


So build, Squashbuckler (Musketeer) 1/ Mysterious stranger 1???/Paladin (Divine Hunter) 1???

I thought on the benifits of expanded Grit/Panache pool, the ability to quick clear when needed. And Paladin for extra damage and some utility. All this with a heavy focus on Charisma and Dex. What I am not sure of is the levels involved. Musketeer one level Dip for sure and mysterious stranger to at least 5 or 7, and paladin rest? If that is the build how to best break down level advancement and or breaks between specific class growth.

Other option is Warpriest/slinger but that would be a minimal dip into slinger and then warpriest.

[Extra Anchovies]

Taking 'slinger to 5 gives you Dex to damage with your gun type of choice, which is a pretty significant damage boost (Dex is your to-hit stat, so you'll want to be devoting items and level-up bonuses to it).

[Jeargroth]

Taking 'slinger to 5 gives you Dex to damage with your gun type of choice, which is a pretty significant damage boost (Dex is your to-hit stat, so you'll want to be devoting items and level-up bonuses to it).

However, if i read the description properly, does not Mysterious stranger trade that ability away???

[NightbringerGGZ]

Taking 'slinger to 5 gives you Dex to damage with your gun type of choice, which is a pretty significant damage boost (Dex is your to-hit stat, so you'll want to be devoting items and level-up bonuses to it).

Mysterious Stranger doesn't get Dex to Damage until level 9. At level 5 it gets the ability to ignore misfires Cha Times/Day. Its an archetype you either want to stick with as your primary class or one you only dip into for a single level.

A one level dip into Musketeer (Swashbuckler) is excellent for both extra Grit, extra Deeds, Weapon Finesse and Rapid Reload. You also get quick clear, which the Mysterious Stranger doesn't get. I'd pick this class for my first level.

With that in mind, I'd go 18 levels of Holy Gun (Paladin) afterwards. With an 18 Charisma you'll have a combined Grit/Panache pool of 8 by second level. You'll be able to spend one point to add your Charisma to your damage rolls while targeting touch AC. If you need to recharge your pool, whip out your Rapier and start fishing for crits. After you get your basic ranged feats in place, consider picking up Fencing Grace and adding Keen to your rapier so that you deal decent melee damage and recharge your Grit/Panache quicker. At level 13 you should have at least 15 Grit/Panache thanks to Holy Gun and that should last you most combats.

[Florian]

Agreed. Swashbuckler (Musketeer) 1/Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) 1/Paladin (Holy Gun) 18 should be the most efficient way to go at this.

Keeping Opportune Parry and Reposte and maybe even supplementing it with Combat Reflexes is great at lower levels. Once Paladin spell casting starts to become a topic, supplementing that with Unsanctioned Knowledge to add some of the more aggressive Inquisitor self-buffs, especially Wrath.

Item selection is going to be a fun topic here, as there are some fun class-specific choices to select from. Only thing is, to my knowledge, there is no specific Musket, while there are at least some rather descent Pistols available (Firedrake, Infinity Sky, Seraphic).

Let´s take a look at the Fluff-angle: Firearms clearly point towards Alkenstar or the Mana Wastes. Associated deities that have a Paladin Codex up for those regions would be Abaddar or Torag. Somehow, I found both to be a bit too dour to really mesh with the flamboyant angle this build would provide. Shelyn would be a charming deity, though.

[Jeargroth]

The only problem i can see with the builds listed, and they look like they are good hold thier own builds. As i have read the War Priest hand book and I glanced over Paladin stuff, is the build isn't a Slinger any more. Its a Paladin or War Priest with a Gun. So primary focus is on casting spells again, or smiting Evil Things.

I was trying to get more out of the Slingerside of the build other than a Dip.

Presently lookin at:
Mysterious Stranger 1/ Musketeer 1/ MS 2-7/ Divine Hunter or straight Paladin or Holy gun 1-2 / Trench Fighter 1-3/ MS 8-11 and finish with what ever i find useful.

The Dip in Paladin is for the Saves... Only thing i really want other than BAB, Trench fighter gives me Dex to damage and Feats (15 and counting) By the end i should have a true Gun Fighter, able to use both Pistols (twf) and rifles. If i need to worry anout Melee i wear a Cestus.

Or am i missing the point? I feel i might be, as this looks alot like something out of 3.5 with all the dips and classes rather than a straight shot to 20 i see as more PF focused. Are Casting classes just that much more powerful they are a necessity?

[Florian]

To put it bluntly, dipping and multi classing (including PrC) is by far not as effective as it has been in 3,5. You want to stay with one main class _unless_ the options provide synergy that vastly exceed what you lose out. Part of it is how class features are constantly scaling, the other part is how the Favored Class Bonus works.

You asked an OP-related question. The answer is that Fighter and Paladin are the cream of the crop of the melee classes and you can dip for synergy and activating (very important to me) the style, but to be somehow effective, you have to pull through with one of the two mentioned classes.

Paladin is neither about the save bonus nor really about the spells. Those are nice boni unless you know how you handle them, then they´re very heavy offensive tools. Rather, it is about "over-buffing" you weapon of choice, beating really hard DR and Smiting, a thing that has improved since 3,5E. Read it up, it works constantly until you have vanquished your chosen target.
When you get your hand on the spells, you will grow to love the "Litany" line of quick-cast spells to directly buff you and your allies beyond points imaginable.

Fighter is not the "guy with feats". That is also a thing of the past. This class is about mastering weapons and armor and improving about that, supported by feats. This might actually be the class that deals the harshest constant weapon damage while shrugging off what comes at it right now. The more level you pile up, the more options become available, and I don´t mean feats right now.

And that, frankly, is the problem right now. Do whatever you want to do with the Swashbuckler or the Gunslinger, it is stylish and fun, yes, but it can´t beat what just dipping and then going over to one of those two classes will give you. You won´t lose the style, though ;)

[Jeargroth]

Ok semi-finalized build... I have half the feats done but as usual its a work in progress. However, it does not dip further than 2 levels into Paladin and 3 into Fighter.

I mathed out some DPS at the bottom using average rolls.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M22W1OxjzCMD_XE7ra3wd46KwpeqrNK9hAMH9mOWvrI/edit?usp=sharing

If the Mysterious Stranger 1/Musketeer 1/ Divine Hunter is better I need help understanding the maths on it.


Thanks people and as usual taking all in stride trying to learn the new system.

Jeargroth

[Florian]

Ah, ok, see: PF is way more structured on what DR to expect when and what ER/Immunity to expect when and where.

Us long-time players of that system not only look at "pure" results, but compare that to the aforementioned structure and decide whether something should be counted towards DPR or not.

For example, there is a "+ X" to specific material or specific alignment table and how to beat that. That is what we use so that for a build DPR doesn´t bother us.

Now using TWF, we do that when we talk about a class that can easily overwhelm DR/ER with sheer numbers, like Fighter, Inquisitor or Rogue, keeping efficiency up the way.

Talking about ranged classes, we do go the regular feat route of Point-Blank Shot > Rapid Shot > Deadly Aim > Cluster Shots to more or less dismiss that issue by making all attacks first, then reduce DR/ER _once_ from it.

To put it bluntly: What you build could fail to kill a regular CR2 Lemure on a bad day, which is a shame.

[Jeargroth]

Unfortunately, I am getting further confused. As I fail to see your point. DR is bypassed by Material or Smite. Last time I checked a Fighter/Rogue didn't get smite. So they rely on Materials to overcome DR, or they need feats for it (clustershot or deadshot). This is how a Fighter would overcome DR correct... either a feat or Material weapon to bypass?

The example of a TWF just overwhelming the DR with a Flurry of Attacks. The build has 7 attacks. Isn't that enough to overcome DR? What is a TWF doing that I am not. I have a Static +10 (average) on a shot by level 13 (Charisma and Dex one would expect more as gear is available but playing it safe here). Is it gear? Is the fighter using some enchantments that are not usable by Gunslingers? I have a LOT of unused feats and can easily move stuff around if the issue is feats. As for enchantments I am sure i can get something if you have specifics in mind.

Lemure is CR1 with a DR of 5. Even at level 1, My damage is a minimum of 6 (hitting, Maxing at 13 so plinking at 1 to 8 damage per hit or 2-16 if double barrelled)... did you by chance mean a different mob? something with a higher DR? I tried to find another Mob, but as levels advance Solo doesn't seem to work well with CR encounters...

I realize I am new, but I am just trying to understand. Paladin/Warpriest are Tier 1-2, not quite Wizards/Sorcerers/Clerics/Druids, but a good up and comer combat wise. Fighter is supposed to be the new meter stick, but if they get by without Smite/Buffs, why can't a slinger? Or is it just that the Gunslinger is a horrific class. Good for level 1-7 then, either Re-roll or start a new campaign? I understand the point of going a Paladin is Holy Gun or 1 slinger and Divine hunter. However, that gives away Deeds. You have a whole whopping 2 Deeds, Dead eye and Quick clear. One is definitely a necessity as a firearm user, but your just a Paladin with a Gun, might as well play an Archer Paladin, which looks awesome btw, but still is a Paladin.

[Gallowglass]

I don't agree with Florian. I have seen three different gunslinger builds (two pistoleros, one mysterious stranger) who have kept up with or surpassed the fighters and paladins in the group in pure damage with ease. And they weren't over optimized. I think gunslinger balances well.

At the one thing they do. Shoot things at short range. Put lots of bullets into a target or targets.

The difference for me is that with a fighter I might have two or three things I'm good at (at least one melee style and one range style) or I have options opened up with combat manuevers that enhance my effectiveness when I can't do those two things. With a paladin I'm good (well... passable) at lots of things, even outside of combat and I'm probably the party face to boot.

the gunslingers just kinda shot things. A lot. Then made clint eastwood jokes when we weren't in combat.

But hey, I'm not knocking it. The guys who played the gunslingers had as much fun or more fun than the wizards and their "ready for everything" tier oneness.

I do agree, however, than dipping too much and having too many multiclasses ends up robbing you down the long stretch. Many will disagree with me on that, but I can only speak from my experience. And I also agree with him that if you feel that the Holy Gun 17 build is "too much a paladin and not enough a 'slinger" that's just a problem of you modulating your impression. Your character is going to have the flavor you give him/her. Just having a load of paladin levels doesn't make him lancelot. That's just baggage you bring to the build based on your impression of paladins from games past. The deeds you give up are a class feature, just like the paladin's spells. You think of the paladin's spells as being more deed-like, you'll see that they replace the deeds pretty effectively.

Remember, Roland in the dark tower series was a paladin.

[Florian]

Gallowglass, Weapon Master Handbook changed a lot about how the Fighter works. That is what I was referencing to. And agreeing with Roland, that´s a very good one.
So, nearly midnight, off to bed.

[Jeargroth]

Alrighty. I Liked Roland from the Dark Tower... never made it past Wizard in Glass (halfway then just put down to pick up another day which hasn't happened yet. However that is another story) Can someone help with a 1-2 Slinger Musketeer (if need the 2 levels) Paladin? I am not so sure on how its feat progression would go if I want focus on DPR as a Gun Toting Paladin named Paladin (anybody remember the tv show?). Saw the Archer Paladin, and like i mentioned it looks cool, but how would you build a Gun toting monster like that?

[Jeargroth]

Thank-you all for your help. It was informative and enlightening.

I don't want to take thread off its path so starting new one requesting help for the 1 MS/1 Musket/Paladin Oath of Vengance build... if you have an idea see me there.


Jeargroth