How Powerful Is The Church In Your Campaign?

[Scorponok]

It seems a lot of campaigns I'm involved in, the church is just a place some people go to on the weekend and they are there when the party needs a town Cleric. Sometimes the PCs need to convince the NPC cleric why they need his or her Cure Light Wounds, but other than that, it is pretty much forgotten about. I don't think I've ever been in a campaign where the DM said "More than half community seems to be heading to church this morning."

In a medieval campaign, shouldn't the church exert GREAT influence on the populace? I mean for awhile, the King of England HAD TO have the support of the church to be coronated. I've also never seen a campaign where two religions fought before. There have been some where the PCs find out there is an evil cult behind the village slayings, but instead of bringing down the wrath of the established religion, the PCs usually attempt to handle the problem themselves.

Does the church exert a lot of influence in your city or town?

[XionUnborn01]

It depends on the campaign really. If the party is rarely in a large town, the church might only come up in passing. On the other hand I've run a campaign where St. Cuthbert was going insane and was gearing up a holy army to dole out punishment across all the planes until there was order. The church played a big part in that, including the PCs having to team up with a High Priest of Vecna and a High Priest of Nerull to stop the war. That was fun.


Basically it can have as big or little of an impact as you want it to.

[PersonMan]

In my settings the church tends to wield a lot of power, but I also move away from the standard all-accepting polytheistic pantheon of the core rules and make a few religions. They're often mutually exclusive and claim the others are wrong, listing things like demonic pacts and such as the source of their divine casting, which is obviously different from true divine power.

In a more magic-rich setting I can imagine the churches would be even stronger, given their numbers of powerful casters, but they could also end up tied up with other churches, mages, guilds, etc. as just another power group.

[Fizban]

Even when a setting makes a big deal about a certain religion (say the Silver Flame in Eberron), I don't think I've read much mention of people going to church all the time. Could be for a few different reasons. I'd personally want to lean away from making churches the major movers in a game since I don't use any specific pantheon and just let people take whatever, and even established settings tends to have huge sprawling lists. Churches are powerful, but they're also so secure in their power they don't really see the need to go stirring up trouble (assuming they're not governing the place). Any temple with a strong enough leader has basically nothing to fear from any attack on a smaller scale than literally the entire enemy church in an all-out assault, and when you can back up your promises with actual magic the only way to lose followers is to stir up trouble they don't like. Smaller churches may rise and fall, but the big ones have enough cash/power they can easily counter PR campaigns and espionage with their own, and since I've little writing or plotting talent to support an intrigue campaign that can just all run in the background.

So if I was making the church a big deal in a game, it'd probably be as the fortress of not-dying against whatever plot. Mentioning everyone on their way to worship would be a good way to drop the hint of that being the place to work with rather than just having someone tell them outright. A church as an antagonist would just be a more useful set of leadership for the enemy army.

[Seto]

The main focus of my campaign (at least the first part of it) is a war between two kingdoms under the influence of the church of Hextor and Heironeous, respectively. So in those countries the church (there are temples to other Gods, but Hextor/Heironeous is pretty much the official religion) is a big deal. Even then, I don't picture peasants and commonfolk going en masse to the temple. They go on with their lives. Their duties are more paying taxes and serving their Bishop/their King than being religious people.

[johnbragg]

REligion works differently in my campaign. The church is part of the state, in an overlapping, Hegelian-kinda-fascist collective-will-of-society way. The church focuses the psychic energy of the society to do things like bless the crops, preserve the city/province/nation from major dangers, ensure good (or at least better) luck, stave off demon invasions and undead apocalypses and tarrasque attacks, etc.

The church's job is to keep that psychic energy harnessed and flowing correctly. The clerics are the civil engineers of the divine energy of the worshippers, charged with making sure the pipes flow correctly.

So the vast majority of temples are pantheons, and the vast majority of priests are priests of the pantheon. An NPC priest might well get a promotion from the Cantor in a village, praying to all the members of the pantheon in turn according to the calendar, to a post as a devoted servant of Athena in the provincial capital, praying to Athena full time. The point is not the prayers of this low or mid-level priest, it's that the town is supporting a temple and a priest of Athena, that the blessings of Athena shall flow to the town. Couple of years down the road, he or she might get promoted to the High PRiest of the Pantheon in the provincial capital, because the old guy got promoted to being the High PRiest of the TEmple of Poseidon in the main port city of the kingdom when THAT guy got transferred to be High Priest of Poseidon in the Royal Cathedral in the capital.

[Beheld]

Why is there "the church" at all? There are over a hundred gods in most campaign settings. Why on earth would there be a monolithic single church? I would expect most cities to have multiple separate mostly non-interactive churches.

[johnbragg]

Why is there "the church" at all? There are over a hundred gods in most campaign settings. Why on earth would there be a monolithic single church? I would expect most cities to have multiple separate mostly non-interactive churches.

In my setting, because "the church" is the divine-energy expression of the political community. In frontier areas, where the protection of the Kingdom is not as secure, you see a lot more Druids and Adepts, not integrated into the political structure.

But it's not the Church of Heironeus or Zeus or Jupiter, it's the Church of the Kingdom of Megaria. Its job is to keep the divine goodwill flowing to Megaria, and to make that happen, you need to get the people praying and donating and maintaining temples with priests in distinctive clothing.

There are localized cults of various gods of various kinds, but that's not a society-wide institution.

[Toilet Cobra]

OP, I have set a scene like the one you describe, but only in the rare case where there is only one hugely dominant religion in a region (I think the last time I made note of "everybody going to church" was on a Dwarven holiday in a mountain hold). But the diversity of religion naturally diminishes the power and importance of any one church and their holy days in most of my communities. There is less political and temporal power to go around, even if the local leaders all ascribe to a certain god's worship over the others.

That said, even without mentioning their church-going habits, I think my players understand that the vast majority of commoners are members of a church, just not the same one. I usually play it like average folk pay homage to multiple gods, while reserving their donations and church attendance for one in particular.

[ThisIsZen]

In my personal setting, the divine doesn't meddle directly with the material. This doesn't mean there isn't divine magic, just that there hasn't been a directly interventionist group of deities (with two separate and significant exceptions) that has lead to some combined pantheon or universal system of belief. Instead, religion has grown essentially similarly to the real world - the interpretations, myths and traditions of various cultures throughout the ages coalescing into an agreed upon set of beliefs that is most likely transient in nature. There are many pantheons, and beyond that monotheistic religions, animistic religions (a majority of druidic traditions refer to the planet itself as a deity, and they're actually incredibly correct) and so forth.

So to answer the question: religion is incredibly important and central to pretty much every group in my game world, but the power of the religious establishment varies from place to place. A theological empire like the Ile is likely to grant the religious elite much more power than the scattered city-states on the opposite coast, for instance.

[gtwucla]

Why is there "the church" at all? There are over a hundred gods in most campaign settings. Why on earth would there be a monolithic single church? I would expect most cities to have multiple separate mostly non-interactive churches.

Because in real world history there were times when hundreds of deities existed and one monolithic church wiped them all out or absorbed them over the course of hundreds of years. The rise of islam swept away many religions. The rise of christianity did as well, be it across Europe, the Americas, Asia, or Africa.

[Malimar]

In my setting, just about everybody is religious. Even the irreligious are often devout about antitheism. For most NPCs, whom they choose to worship is a big part of their characterization.

There are only 12 major religions in this world, so each church wields a fair amount of power.

In Gus, the main country where people adventure, there's some religious tension going on (mostly in the background, as the PCs haven't been offered or pursued the proper hooks to really delve into the religious tension in-game): the official state religion is worship of Quasxthe, LE god of betentacled things (who props up the government more or less directly), but most religions are tolerated, and a majority of the populace worships Dalya, CG goddess of fertility.

Other nations have different levels of religious involvement in public life and government:

The elves are pretty religious (they're ruled by a druid, a ranger, and a wizard; the druid is also the high priest of Sequoia, goddess of nature).
The people of the local wutai Asia-ripoff nation worship their Ancestor Spirits, but there's not a centrally organized church of the Ancestor Spirits.
One nation is outright ruled by a deva, who encourages worship of Numiel, LG god of the sun.
The dwarf/gnome Engineer nation worships Urmaggr, LN god of machines, by creating warforged to do their worship rituals for them, freeing up time for more important pursuits.

[BWR]

Depends on the setting and the particular church and area in the setting. There are settings that have areas with strict functionally monotheistic (or at least highly exclusive) churches which dictate most aspects of daily life, there are those where churches are powerful and influential but there are several competing or even rival churches and they stay mostly out of or tangentially related to politics, then there are those where churches are more like a business or hobby organization, and there are those where churches are forbidden and there are those where churches and religion don't really exist.

I mostly run Mystara and the nature of and power of churches varies from country to country, from Glantri where all divine magic and worship is banned to Karameikos with three competing (though not hostile) strictly organized churches of various Immortals, to practical theocracies. There are countries where there aren't much by the way of churches, like the Five Shires, and everything inbetween.

[Quertus]

I like the church to hold... if not power, then at least importance. Clerics are holy men, and, like nobility, can expect preferential treatment. For example, you don't normally jail a cleric (of an "accepted" religion), although you may keep them as your guest while you contact their church about any potential charges. Which can also be a good way to get free divinations about who the "real" culprit is.

[Keltest]

It depends on where you are in my setting. Ive got a human city that is ruled entirely by the clergy and a couple where they are respected but not in charge. The elves are decidedly anti-divine (which is not to say atheistic, they know theyre there and just don't like them all that much). The dwarves are deeply religious, and while the churches themselves are entirely separated from the other organizations, it is not at all uncommon for clerics of the god of battle to be serving in the military as officers, simply because they end up being good at it.

[Spore]

In one campaign there is a major national religion for each of the countries. There do exist other religions within, just as US Muslims or Chinese Christians exist. The major religions have their members in most larger councils, the smaller ones do too but understandably only to a smaller extent (and most likely one bound to their god's portfolios).

E.g. the LE nation ruled by a Queen is mostly devoted to Asmodeus and there he isn't viewed as a malevolent devil but as a powerful, strict and unrelenting god. There are other nations where the homebrew creator god Aios is celebrated (because he is the most universal one in that setting) and again others serve their Pharao as a paragon/exarch/demigod-like creature blessed by one of the Egyptian themed gods (varies between Horus-Re/Ra, Atum or Horus).

Similarly the church powers range from "influential but controlled" (most major religions) over "extremely influenting the common perception of right and wrong" (Asmodeus' state will punish breaking contracts harder than murder) into "city-state in the honor of an alignment extreme" (Eternal Flame = LG paragon which is basically the SilverFlame without the whole Lycanthrope hubbub").

There is a country ruled by Antipaladins (well, country is a wrong term, it is a battlefield for warlords of different influence) devoted to Chaos and Evil but there's also the classical Dwarven society where important ancestors are basically equal to demigods.

[Beheld]

Because in real world history there were times when hundreds of deities existed and one monolithic church wiped them all out or absorbed them over the course of hundreds of years. The rise of islam swept away many religions. The rise of christianity did as well, be it across Europe, the Americas, Asia, or Africa.

I am absolutely certain that there has never been a time in real history when hundreds of deities existed.

Arguing that your campaign setting involves one overgod that murdered all the other gods to take over their religions just tells me that the past of your campaign setting was far more interesting than the present.

[ThisIsZen]

I am absolutely certain that there has never been a time in real history when hundreds of deities existed.

Arguing that your campaign setting involves one overgod that murdered all the other gods to take over their religions just tells me that the past of your campaign setting was far more interesting than the present.

Well, if not the deities themselves, the concepts of hundreds of deities can definitely be said to have existed concurrently - hell, you probably don't even need to go looking at multiple pantheons for it. Just take a random sampling of a few ancient Egyptian villages and towns and you can probably make a cool couple hundred, if you're willing to count fusions and permutations.

That being said, if you want to emulate the conflict between a "pagan" religion and a newer, more temporally powerful monotheistic church that is converting all it conquers, that could definitely serve as an interesting narrative.

[johnbragg]

I am absolutely certain that there has never been a time in real history when hundreds of deities existed.

Arguing that your campaign setting involves one overgod that murdered all the other gods to take over their religions just tells me that the past of your campaign setting was far more interesting than the present.

But people certainly *believed* that hundreds of or innumerable gods exists, and acted as such. In the real-world Mediterranean in the Hellenistic and Roman periods, the idea that all of the different pantheons were expressions of the same pantheon became pretty widespread. Rome used that politically, integrating local deities and cults into the Greco-Roman pantheon system. (Logical consistency was not valued, so if Zeus was identified with, say Amon Ra in Memphis and, say, Horus in Thebes it wasn't considered a problem. Much like all mail addressed to Santa Claus gets there, no matter what details are or aren't on the envelope, the prayers, worship, reverence and sacrifice was presumed to get there.) I'm not as versed in Chinese early history, but the Celestial Bureaucracy was a thing. Hinduism often shades into pantheism, or at least pan-theism.

So it's plausible that an entire campaign setting would regard the innumerable or at least numerous gods as part of some semi-organized whole, a divine reflection of the Devil and Demon hierarchies.

You could always declare that, in a world where the gods can speak directly to people and send avatars to Layeth the Divine Smack down, they could prevent such indignities. (Of course, if the gods themselves aren't showing up, it might be hard to tell a divine smackdown from an epic level wizard smackdown, or a dragon-with-high-level-spells smackdown, or any number of things that happen when the Heroic PCs of that half-decade botch a bunch of d20 rolls and catastrophe is unleashed.) Or you could declare that the gods are sufficiently dependent on their worshippers that they take their worship and like it, even if the mortals have a completely mistaken understanding of celestial politics and power-relations.

[GreyBlack]

It seems a lot of campaigns I'm involved in, the church is just a place some people go to on the weekend and they are there when the party needs a town Cleric. Sometimes the PCs need to convince the NPC cleric why they need his or her Cure Light Wounds, but other than that, it is pretty much forgotten about. I don't think I've ever been in a campaign where the DM said "More than half community seems to be heading to church this morning."

In a medieval campaign, shouldn't the church exert GREAT influence on the populace? I mean for awhile, the King of England HAD TO have the support of the church to be coronated. I've also never seen a campaign where two religions fought before. There have been some where the PCs find out there is an evil cult behind the village slayings, but instead of bringing down the wrath of the established religion, the PCs usually attempt to handle the problem themselves.

Does the church exert a lot of influence in your city or town?

It's... weird. My own homebrew campaign world has 9 distinct religions (10 if you count the World Spirit), but the gods generally keep out of the affairs of the material world. The last time a god directly intervened, he was killed by a "BBEG" (it's a world of Shades of Grey). As a general rule, people worship the pantheon as a whole, but don't generally speaking put too much importance on it because everyone is too busy trying to survive multiple apocalypses too be much concerned with religion. Scientific progress and arcane magic is generally viewed more positively when it's available (as a mix of high fantasy and low-magic fantasy. Again, it's weird.).

[johnbragg]

Well, if not the deities themselves, the concepts of hundreds of deities can definitely be said to have existed concurrently - hell, you probably don't even need to go looking at multiple pantheons for it. Just take a random sampling of a few ancient Egyptian villages and towns and you can probably make a cool couple hundred, if you're willing to count fusions and permutations.

That being said, if you want to emulate the conflict between a "pagan" religion and a newer, more temporally powerful monotheistic church that is converting all it conquers, that could definitely serve as an interesting narrative.

You could definitely run a conflict arc between the powerful Empire's centralizing religion, and local religions invested in their distinctness. St. Cuthbert is NOT in fact an aspect of Hercules or Conan or Chuck Norris, or vice versa, and his supporters do NOT appreciate your saying so.

2E had a druidic hierarchy for each continental-size region. 3E dumped that, and druids fit well as a localized, basically anarchistic faith. (In the poli sci sense. The local Druid 3 might recognize the Druid 7 a few towns over as a senior Druid and a wise counselor, and may well take advice, but not instructions.

[Necroticplague]

In my setting? Not very. A lot of things undermine the strength of any one church. For one thing, most church members aren't clerics, at least in the mechanical sense. For another thing, the truth of what the way higher up did tends to obfuscated by the world's longest game of telephone ever. Additionally, divine power can come from sources entirely unrelated to worship, thanks to Archivists, Divine Souls, Druids, and Factotums and similar, so even being a cleric doesn't say much about your religion's truth. They're respected as having access to the ever-useful healing magics, but enterprising Archivists have also made that their niche (clerics need to prep all their sperlls at once, archivists can leave slots blank to use later, so the latter are more useful for things that need really specific spells to heal).

[Kelb_Panthera]

In my own campaigns the curches (note the plurality) are major political powers in a grand sense but, as with all power groups, their reach is only as far as their power to enforce it.. Naturally, lawful rerligions tend to be more influential than chaotic religions and secular monarchies, oligarchies, and even the (exceedingly) rare republic tend to push back against some of the more overbearing would-be theocrats. Even the odd magical academy or enclave exerts their influence in more metropolitan areas.

Of course, being a fan of machiavelllian political intrigue and cloak and daggger spy-games, I suspect I've developed my setting's political landscape a bit more than is typical.

[Tiktakkat]

Religions in the game are going to be like politics in the game - how many can the DM juggle.

How often do feuds between knights occur in the realm?
Between low ranking nobles?
Between high ranking nobles?
How regularly do wars break out?

And what about the wealthy without titles?
How often are guilds fighting?
How often do great merchant houses throw down?

The same with 100, or 10, or even just 2 religions.
That is a LOT of plotlines to juggle, so they are ultimately going to get sidelined like everything else until needed for the story of the week.
It can be a critical element of your background, but still wind up never mentioned in an entire campaign arc.

For me, it is important enough that I've written 20+ pages of background material for it.
For my players, it is usually important enough that they have a place to buy wands of cure light wounds without getting hassled.

[Florian]

In my campaigns, it varies greatly by region and culture. Gods exist and have dominion over aspects of reality, but they are not seen as omnipotent creators.
In areas where the aspect a god or pantheon has dominion about is important, that church rises along in power and influence with it.

[johnbragg]

Religions in the game are going to be like politics in the game - how many can the DM juggle.
That is a LOT of plotlines to juggle, so they are ultimately going to get sidelined like everything else until needed for the story of the week.
It can be a critical element of your background, but still wind up never mentioned in an entire campaign arc.

For me, it is important enough that I've written 20+ pages of background material for it.
For my players, it is usually important enough that they have a place to buy wands of cure light wounds without getting hassled.

Yup. Unless a group really likes political intrigue, the druids in the party are perfectly happy to get free supplemental party healing from teh town cleric. The town cleric is happy enough that they have some foreign murderhobos to go chase goblins and beasties in the wild that he's not going to raise questions about the druid's status vis-a-vis the national church. In game, the effect has been that the town temple has statues to a couple of different major gods outside, and is dedicated to the entire pantheon. (Knowledge-Religion check).

(PCs are special snowflakes, so if a player wants to run as a chosen servant of AThena or Thor or Princess Celestia, we'll make it happen. But NPC priests are pretty much national/pantheon priests.)

[Darth Ultron]

There are hundreds of churches in my game, and each has a different level of power. Some have great power and some have little and most are in the middle. Though I have very active gods too.

I really don't like the way a lot of modern games whitewash religion into ''meaningless nothing, other then cool healing''.

[StreamOfTheSky]

In my current campaign, churches and temples have little power in general, and the Church Inquisitor prestige class has been re-fluffed as an organization of one of the campaign's major villains (I didn't make them up, it's a pre-written campaign), the...Inquisitors. Who revel in torturing those it captures and goes after any spellcasters who don't swear allegiance to their Empress, and...pretty much behave just like the real life Inquisition did. The gods grant spells to clerics but otherwise don't get involved in the world at all, and are so distant and not talked about I'm considering treating them as actually being dead and their surrogate fiends/angels/etc... merely keeping appearances up.

In the only other long term campaign I've ran, the party was evil and all devoted to a bunch of evil gods who had been imprisoned by the rest of the pantheon and forgotten about by most mortals. They were devout religious fanatics seeking to free their patrons and then aid them in killing the entire pantheon, destroying the "impure" world, and remaking it from scratch (the primary dark god they worshipped was canonically the actual creator of the material plane, and the other gods grew fearful of his power -- and his evil nature -- and ganged up against him). They frequently were opposed by an almost equally dogmatic band of followers of good deities, who were the de-facto "good guys" but whom I played as pretty authoritarian and unlikable themselves. In part because I figured a constant crucible of unforgiving enemies would help keep the evil PCs united and not turn on each other, in part because if you haven't noticed yet, I have a low view of organized religion. :smallsmile:

[Jay R]

In my world, there are some areas in which one church is more popular than any other. In those places, that church has a great deal of power.

There is also a theocratic government in another area, in which that specific church, through the government, has the power that you would expect the government to have.

But to play D&D, you really have to get rid of the notion of "the" church.

[gtwucla]

I am absolutely certain that there has never been a time in real history when hundreds of deities existed.

Arguing that your campaign setting involves one overgod that murdered all the other gods to take over their religions just tells me that the past of your campaign setting was far more interesting than the present.

You are certain that of the hundreds of Native American tribes in the 15th century that there weren't 100 deities between them? You are certain that with the rise of Christianity in the Eastern Roman empire that in the greater world there weren't at least a dozen pantheons, each encompassing many deities that didn't number at least 100 deities?

[johnbragg]

You are certain that of the hundreds of Native American tribes in the 15th century that there weren't 100 deities between them? You are certain that with the rise of Christianity in the Eastern Roman empire that in the greater world there weren't at least a dozen pantheons, each encompassing many deities that didn't number at least 100 deities?

He is claiming certainty that there is currently, and by implication has always been, one deity--at the most.

[Beheld]

You are certain that of the hundreds of Native American tribes in the 15th century that there weren't 100 deities between them? You are certain that with the rise of Christianity in the Eastern Roman empire that in the greater world there weren't at least a dozen pantheons, each encompassing many deities that didn't number at least 100 deities?

I am certain that those deities didn't exist. It's a lot harder for worship of Pelor to cease happening if Pelor literally shows up to tell you that you are wrong, and that anyone of any religion can cast Commune and ask "Does Pelor Exist?" and find out the answer is yes. And that anyone can Planeshift over to the plane pelor lives on and go meet him.


He is claiming certainty that there is currently, and by implication has always been, one deity--at the most.

Technically, I am claiming certainty that there is currently, and by implication has always been, 99 or fewer deities. Or perhaps 199. Depending how you interpret "hundreds" but you know, whatever.

[Jay R]

I am absolutely certain that there has never been a time in real history when hundreds of deities existed.

Untrue, but who cares?


Arguing that your campaign setting involves one overgod that murdered all the other gods to take over their religions just tells me that the past of your campaign setting was far more interesting than the present.

What a wonderful idea. Let's set a campaign in the middle of the godwars.

[Kelb_Panthera]

He is claiming certainty that there is currently, and by implication has always been, one deity--at the most.

I parsed it as an atheistic crack but meh. I could see it being an assertion of the idea of monotheism as well.

In any case, it's no more provable or disprovable than that question ever has been so I presumed that the statement he was addressing could be parsed as "It was believed throughout history that there were inumerable gods" and would add "albeit not usually more than a few dozen to a hundred or so by any particular group."

[Marlowe]

Sorry if this has been said before.

D&D ISN'T a "medieval" setting. There is no "The Church", singular. What there are is lots of different gods with their own little cults. Some bigger than others, but in most settings I've been in there's usually been a place for most of the gods in Dieties and Demigods, at least, in most major towns. With so much competition (and so much evidence that ALL these gods actually exist and have some real power; otherwise how do their Clerics do stuff?) there's no way for any of these cults to be as powerful on a secular level as the medieval catholic church.

It's weird that D&D uses the anthromorphic classical polytheist model for everyone everywhere, but I suppose it's easy.

[gtwucla]

Too hard... to read... into... comments... meaning. Too old... too goddamn old.

[Coidzor]

The Church is politically powerful and one of the Three Estates of human culture in my setting, though the level of religiosity isn't particularly high because the world is still reeling from a war amongst the gods which almost unmade the world, and the gods don't care about level of devotion between their monopoly and the ongoing process of fixing the planet without letting new gods in.

Everybody except for people living in exempted areas(mostly areas where racial pantheons hold sway instead of the main deities) or places where gods died(because civilization won't go where they can't have divine spellcasting) is part of the church laity at least.

Only a few of the members of the pantheon have worship services, though, and none that have them daily outside of the most important temples.

The goddess of commerce, for instance, is just invoked and praised as part of business deals, launching ships, that sort of thing. The priesthood has taken on a variety of bureaucratic functions in most mainstream cultures, overseeing things like international standards for licensing and units and measures.

The priests are not rulers, though, except in a few places where the nobles ended up having a large population of clerics, and when it comes to lands owned by the Church.

[johnbragg]

Sorry if this has been said before.

It's weird that D&D uses the anthromorphic classical polytheist model for everyone everywhere, but I suppose it's easy.

Exactly. My setting with the Roman-inspired "religion as the cultivation of the gods", something a well-organized state does, like aqueducts and mage guilds and lightly-magical roads and port maintenance; making "the Church" an arm of the state and the psychic expression of the nation--still turns out to have not much crunch effect on the PCs. Sooner or later they'll be called on to attend the regular profession-of-loyalty ceremony that fuels the town's and Kingdom's public works, but bottom line, PCs are special snowflakes.

IT lets players put down whatever god they want or can imagine on their character sheet, it lets clerics be whatever orientation.

You already have to explain plenty to new players. Why add to that explaining how the Celestial Bureaucracy works, or the interrelationships of a Hindu pantheon that operates outside of Aristotelian logic.

[Marlowe]

Because, even if you accept your idea that control over religion is what a well-ordered state does, that's not the way it's worked historically. "The Church" became powerful in medieval europe because the Benedictine reforms made it one of the few organised bodies with any sort of continuity for a few centuries. "The Church" became powerful because of the the weakness of the secular state, not as a result of it.

I've read my Tacticus enough to want to break down in giggles at any idea that Rome was any kind of "well-ordered state". And in any event, a "well-ordered state" is not the default setting of D&D.

The Hindu gods are still anthromorphic figures, I have no idea what you mean by "operating outside Aristolelian logic",I'm thinking more why so many DMs look confused when you ask to play a Cleric as an analog to a Animist/Shintoist or a Taoist or a Confucianist, all valid religions and one that do not require a singular "God" in order to work.

So, I'm going to have to contradict you here, the D&D insistance on Anthromorphic Classical Polythesism is not "Allowing" anything. It's restricting possibilities into an iron-age Mediterrean model. A model which didn't last very long in Human history.

We probably don't need to go into how things like BoVD, BoED, and the Fiendish Codexes then throw an Abrahamic monotheistic model on top of that.

[Florian]

Because, even if you accept your idea that control over religion is what a well-ordered state does, that's not the way it's worked historically. "The Church" became powerful in medieval europe because the Benedictine reforms made it one of the few organised bodies with any sort of continuity for a few centuries. "The Church" became powerful because of the the weakness of the secular state, not as a result of it.

I've read my Tacticus enough to want to break down in giggles at any idea that Rome was any kind of "well-ordered state". And in any event, a "well-ordered state" is not the default setting of D&D.

The Hindu gods are still anthromorphic figures, I have no idea what you mean by "operating outside Aristolelian logic",I'm thinking more why so many DMs look confused when you ask to play a Cleric as an analog to a Animist/Shintoist or a Taoist or a Confucianist, all valid religions and one that do not require a singular "God" in order to work.

So, I'm going to have to contradict you here, the D&D insistance on Anthromorphic Classical Polythesism is not "Allowing" anything. It's restricting possibilities into an iron-age Mediterrean model. A model which didn't last very long in Human history.

We probably don't need to go into how things like BoVD, BoED, and the Fiendish Codexes then throw an Abrahamic monotheistic model on top of that.

A core reason here might be because people only schooled in the Abrahamic traditions can´t really get a grip on deities being not some distant "Deity of some-or-such-thing" but the literal essence of exactly that thing, therefore not following through with the whole train of logic and giving those deities worldly manifestations, the churches and cults, a kind of subordinate place in the world, defining their power by what those churches and cults can do, not by what the deity is capable of.

If you´re in PFs Golarion setting, then don´t wonder up why they kept some regions for later as they are all about the non-aristotelean-logic deities, as well as most of the things you mentioned.

[johnbragg]

Because, even if you accept your idea that control over religion is what a well-ordered state does, that's not the way it's worked historically. "The Church" became powerful in medieval europe because the Benedictine reforms made it one of the few organised bodies with any sort of continuity for a few centuries. "The Church" became powerful because of the the weakness of the secular state, not as a result of it.

I've read my Tacticus enough to want to break down in giggles at any idea that Rome was any kind of "well-ordered state".

Praetorian shenanigans aside, the aqueducts got built and maintained, the roads got built, the legions got trained (and the bread got distributed and circuses were held)--and the temples and priesthoods were maintained. Because that was how the Republic, and later the Empire, kept the favor of the gods.


And in any event, a "well-ordered state" is not the default setting of D&D.

Well, yeah. You adventure in the frontier hinterland areas, where the monsters are. :smallbiggrin:


The Hindu gods are still anthromorphic figures, I have no idea what you mean by "operating outside Aristolelian logic",

They're anthropomorphic figures, except when they're an aspect of a greater god in the trinity, and/or an aspect of universal pantheisms.


I'm thinking more why so many DMs look confused when you ask to play a Cleric as an analog to a Animist/Shintoist or a Taoist or a Confucianist, all valid religions and one that do not require a singular "God" in order to work.

Yeah, I don't see how that's a problem. RAW says you can be a cleric of an alignment or philosophy, it doesn't say the DM has to understand the philosophy. :biggrin:

Historically, Iron Age anthropomorphic polytheism had room for Socrates' inspirational daimon, I don't see how a Taoist cleric is a problem. (Not sure a Confucian cleric exactly works--monk, maybe paladin. But PCs are special snowflakes, so why not.)


So, I'm going to have to contradict you here, the D&D insistance on Anthromorphic Classical Polythesism is not "Allowing" anything. It's restricting possibilities into an iron-age Mediterrean model. A model which didn't last very long in Human history.

ACP as you call it, was non exclusive and allowed pretty much everything that allowed ACP. As long as your city had a temple to the Divine Augustus, you were good to go.


We probably don't need to go into how things like BoVD, BoED, and the Fiendish Codexes then throw an Abrahamic monotheistic model on top of that.

Although that stuff has a genealogy going back to Gary Gygax's demons and devils and the Blood War.

[Marlowe]

Praetorian shenanigans aside, the aqueducts got built and maintained, the roads got built, the legions got trained (and the bread got distributed and circuses were held)--and the temples and priesthoods were maintained. Because that was how the Republic, and later the Empire, kept the favor of the gods. Did it? Seriously. Look at any History. The Roman empire was a horrible mess. If any of it got maintained, it had do to with the self-interest of the people in power.

The old republic, ruling a little slice of hills in the Italian countryside, might have cared about the favour of the gods, but I've read little evidence anyone else did. I haven't read a single classical historical or figure giving a damn about The Gods since Thucydidies. And then it was just a case of slander.




Well, yeah. You adventure in the frontier hinterland areas, where the monsters are. :smallbiggrin:
Don't tell me where I adventure, sir. And the dungeon and ruined temples that we discover would not exist in "a well-ordered state". The default setting of D&D is a post-apocalyptic mess.

And please don't keep adding smiles to everything you type.




They're anthropomorphic figures, except when they're an aspect of a greater god in the trinity, and/or an aspect of universal pantheisms. means absolutely nothing.





Yeah, I don't see how that's a problem. RAW says you can be a cleric of an alignment or philosophy, it doesn't say the DM has to understand the philosophy. :biggrin: Yes, the Dm has to understand our he thinks you're trying to get away with something. Dm's often aren't smart people.



Historically, Iron Age anthropomorphic polytheism had room for Socrates' inspirational daimon, I don't see how a Taoist cleric is a problem. (Not sure a Confucian cleric exactly works--monk, maybe paladin. But PCs are special snowflakes, so why not.) Sorry? You'll note they killed Socrates? Right? A lot of DMs won't even allow him to exist.
And a Confucian Cleric is easy. It's very similar to a Wee Jas Cleric without the actual hot redhead.




ACP as you call it, was non exclusive and allowed pretty much everything that allowed ACP. As long as your city had a temple to the Divine Augustus, you were good to go. Do you have a point, here? I'm thinking, as somebody that's actually studied the mess that was the Roman Empire, that you're imagining a long time of peace and tranquility under the eagles that never actually happened.




Although that stuff has a genealogy going back to Gary Gygax's demons and devils and the Blood War. Is it all? The entire idea of the Hellbred depends on the idea of the powers of good being ultimately more powerful than the powers of evil, which is a strictly Christian idea, and not in keeping with the polytheistic idea of everything else.

And it is bizarre, is it not; that we've moved from a discussion of the Medieval Catholic Church, an organisation only powerful due to the lack of secular authority and which the secular resistance to is the foundation of many modern states government, to basing ourselves on an era where control of the legions, the arbiter of secular force, meant everything?

[torrasque666]

I am certain that those deities didn't exist. It's a lot harder for worship of Pelor to cease happening if Pelor literally shows up to tell you that you are wrong, and that anyone of any religion can cast Commune and ask "Does Pelor Exist?" and find out the answer is yes. And that anyone can Planeshift over to the plane pelor lives on and go meet him.
But does that mean that he's a god, or merely a powerful being with access to high level magic? Especially if Pelor, Vecna, Bahamut, Manethak, and others all have similar powers and abilities? Worship can especially stop if the gods stop taking care of their worshippers and someone else will.

[johnbragg]

Did it? Seriously. Look at any History. The Roman empire was a horrible mess. If any of it got maintained, it had do to with the self-interest of the people in power.

The old republic, ruling a little slice of hills in the Italian countryside, might have cared about the favour of the gods, but I've read little evidence anyone else did. I haven't read a single classical historical or figure giving a damn about The Gods since Thucydidies. And then it was just a case of slander.

Is it worth it for me to google up a source on the Romans adopting the gods of their conquered enemies and building them temples at Rome, their practice of tempting foreign gods to "desert" to the Roman side with promises of a bigger temple and a richer ceremonial priesthood?

This Google Books link/URL]
is talking about the early republic, but AFAIK they kept on doing it through the Imperial period.

And classical elites of all nations were obsessed with portents and augurs, with astrologers and diviners and soothsayers and amulet-mongers and such. Not all of the elite, but a lot of them.

And civic administration was a heck of a lot better in the Roman Imperial period than it was before or after in most of the Mediterranean world. CF the Life of Brian "what have the Romans ever done for us" sketch.



means absolutely nothing.

Deleted before the mods do it for me. Suffice to say that in Hinduism, a thing is sometimes something else at the same time.


Yes, the Dm has to understand our he thinks you're trying to get away with something. Dm's often aren't smart people.

This is true, but handing the DM a setting splatbook that Explains It All doesn't fix a dumb DM. He'll ban your splatbook because he thinks you're trying to get away with something.


Sorry? You'll note they killed Socrates? Right? A lot of DMs won't even allow him to exist.

They killed Socrates eventually, but the idea that he had a personal daimon whispering in his ear was strange-but-not-unheard of. It would have been impious of him to refuse the daimon.
If the daimon hadn't led him to associate with Alcibiades and the Thirty Tyrants, Socrates probably doesn't get accused of being a Sophist, "making the worse argument appear the better".


And a Confucian Cleric is easy. It's very similar to a Wee Jas Cleric without the actual hot redhead.

Oh mechanically it's easy enough. I'd allow it in a heartbeat, and I take points off any DM who wouldn't. But I don't know that I see Confucianism as enough of a "religion" to make it work. But I'm not playing the character, so that's not so important.

[quote] Do you have a point, here? I'm thinking, as somebody that's actually studied the mess that was the Roman Empire, that you're imagining a long time of peace and tranquility under the eagles that never actually happened.

The point is that a DM rejecting a non-Anthropomorphic Classical God cleric can't really base what he's saying on the practices of the Anthropomorphic Classical God period IRL. They are rejecting things that the actual classical Greeks or Romans or Egyptians or Babylonians or Norsemen wouldn't have rejected.



And it is bizarre, is it not; that we've moved from a discussion of the Medieval Catholic Church, an organisation only powerful due to the lack of secular authority and which the secular resistance to is the foundation of many modern states government, to basing ourselves on an era where control of the legions, the arbiter of secular force, meant everything?

The power of the legions was based to a large extent on the road system, which was an Imperial achievement, pirate-free travel across the Mediterranean, a functioning taxation system. The legions themselves were a Roman military system.

I'm saying that the Romans were good at systems, and the Roman state treated religion as a matter of public works. (Not just the Romans--all large, durable empires have to be good at systems or they don't get to be both large and durable). In a world where actual deities existed who could be influenced by prayer, worship, sacrifice and the like, the Romans would have systematized that too. If they had dragons, the Roman state would have regularized how dragon-tribute was organized.

Ahh, there it is. Again, early Republic, but the Temple of Apollo Medicus. There was a plague, which obviously meant that the Romans weren't paying enough attention to the gods of plagues and medicine. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Apollo_Sosianus (https://books.google.com/books?id=l4OvAcAUSB8C&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=romans+tempting+foreign+gods&source=bl&ots=iMMM7iAIpF&sig=WV-3GBYPuIkUMfvLWXaC54StA84&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6vu3bm_rKAhUF5SYKHeX3DyEQ6AEIITAB#v=on epage&q=romans%20tempting%20foreign%20gods&f=false)

[flappeercraft]

In my campaign in a small kingdom created by a 30th level character from a previous party (not my party my dad's party, yes not kidding my dad's character created it) the church is like almost the law, they are like the most important people. They can give people orders, kill fugitives themselves, etc. Also they are treated like royalty.

[Florian]

But does that mean that he's a god, or merely a powerful being with access to high level magic? Especially if Pelor, Vecna, Bahamut, Manethak, and others all have similar powers and abilities? Worship can especially stop if the gods stop taking care of their worshippers and someone else will.

What knowledge exactly do you want to talk about? In-Game, Out-Game or the combination of both?

The point being here is that if something have be declared Out-Game to be "true" and we know there are way for an In-Game creatures to attain the same knowledge, then debate and opinions can still happen, but they are not considered to be "true" when we know, Out-Game, what "true" means.

So if we say that Pelor is the Sun and degree that to be "true", that i the only point that matters and has to be worked on from.

Edit: As we do not have any outside source that actually give answers, not have the means to cross-reference answers on a cosmic level, we have to make do with stuff like the scientific method and other things. If I could ask "nature" if that god of nature over there had anything to do with it and "nature" could explain the relationship between the two of them, I would ask very different questions afterward indeed, screw Peer Reviews and all our methods.

[johnbragg]

The point is that a DM rejecting a non-Anthropomorphic Classical God cleric can't really base what he's saying on the practices of the Anthropomorphic Classical God period IRL. They are rejecting things that the actual classical Greeks or Romans or Egyptians or Babylonians or Norsemen wouldn't have rejected.


Shorter "The point is": If you ran that Cleric or god idea by the Romans, they would not have rejected it, as your DM apparently would. They'd have said "IF it grants spells, build it a temple and finance a priesthood, before it sends us a big boatload of ill fortune."

[Keltest]

But does that mean that he's a god, or merely a powerful being with access to high level magic? Especially if Pelor, Vecna, Bahamut, Manethak, and others all have similar powers and abilities? Worship can especially stop if the gods stop taking care of their worshippers and someone else will.

Unless you have a specific definition of "god" like "derives their strength exclusively from the worship of their followers", the difference between a god and someone who is in all respects a god is entirely semantic.

[Tiktakkat]

One issue with clerics of non-deities/pantheons is how the rules system has changed over "editions".

In OD&D, clerics just "were", with specifics unmentioned even when pantheons were printed in a supplement.
AD&D mentioned "deity or deities" in the class description, and reprinted the pantheons, but again didn't get into many details. It presented druids as more generic "force (of nature)" variants. It was only when the specific settings developed that more direct connections were made between divine casters and specific deities.
BECMI originally followed the AD&D mode, but was revised in reaction to the "Mad Mom" issue, with "Immortals" redefined as ascended champions.
AD&D 2nd started introducing the concept of non-deity serving clerics, developing it particularly with the Planescape setting. It also strengthened the concept of clerics serving specific deities rather than just following pantheons.
D20 D&D finally made serving "forces" and "concepts" part of the primary class description. And it introduced additional divine caster classes.

So it can be to some that clerics do indeed directly serve pantheons, or even specific deities, while shamans or spirit shamans serve those more undefined "forces", without any particular failure of imagination or lack of understanding.
Different sources of divine power simply provide different class abilities as a matter of game mechanics.
Whether they all wind up being called "clerics", or other terms that have become generic over time, is just an element of linguistic preference.
None of those should be taken to exclude anything, other than as an artifact of setting flavor (Setting A has only clerics, Setting B has only shamans, Setting C has both but distinct by power source, Setting D has both with no distinction by power source), with no choice being "right" or "wrong".

[Necroticplague]

Unless you have a specific definition of "god" like "derives their strength exclusively from the worship of their followers", the difference between a god and someone who is in all respects a god is entirely semantic.

It matters for purposes of whether a creature is worthy of worship. Why would, say Pelor be any more worthy of having a church than the local epic Archivist? Both of them have powerful divine abilities, their own plane, and their own minions. So why is the former any worthy of being called a god than the latter?

[Beheld]

It matters for purposes of whether a creature is worthy of worship. Why would, say Pelor be any more worthy of having a church than the local epic Archivist? Both of them have powerful divine abilities, their own plane, and their own minions. So why is the former any worthy of being called a god than the latter?

Why would being a God make him worthy of worship either? He could have gotten all his Divine Ranks from Ice Assassins.

The main point is, that if you cast Divination and roll a success, and ask "is Pelor currently a God?" the answer is yes. I mean, if you want to argue he made up his own spell that causes him to register as a god to Divination, then . . . I mean, okay, but how is that different from being a god?

[Jon_Dahl]

Churches are fairly powerful in my campaign so that I can easily exert my will in the game through completely arbitrary reasons: "God Says So!"
It works great. Highly recommended.

[Necroticplague]

Why would being a God make him worthy of worship either? He could have gotten all his Divine Ranks from Ice Assassins.

Because worshiping a god can influence where your soul goes in the afterlife. The local Archivist doesn't have that advantage/ability (even though his plane may pimped out in many other ways).

[Florian]

It matters for purposes of whether a creature is worthy of worship. Why would, say Pelor be any more worthy of having a church than the local epic Archivist? Both of them have powerful divine abilities, their own plane, and their own minions. So why is the former any worthy of being called a god than the latter?

I can give you a very Golarion-specific answer that does nail it there, I think:

Anyone that reached "Mythic" levels (different from the old Epic levels) can reach the point that ha can grant spells to followers due to pure personal power.
If that person were to die, nothing really would happen, the world would´t change.

The River "Isar" is also the god "Isar". Kill the river - kill the deity and vice versa. And yes, this river would cease to exist if you were to kill the deity.

When the god of human empires and prophecy died, prophecy became unstable and all human empire fell. That can´t be stopped in any ways until a new god of human empire and/or prophesy were to rise and take its place. Until then, all human empire will decline as that is the nature of it then.

[SangoProduction]

As powerful as necessary, or as the players desire. If none of the party cares about deities, then the church is likely to be a "choose your own belief" rational people, with a general desire to do "good" with their divine powers.

[Bohandas]

I don't think I've ever been in a campaign where the DM said "More than half community seems to be heading to church this morning."


Most settings use personally henotheistic polytheism so people would be going to several different churches


I've also never seen a campaign where two religions fought before. There have been some where the PCs find out there is an evil cult behind the village slayings, but instead of bringing down the wrath of the established religion, the PCs usually attempt to handle the problem themselves.

To be fair, most parties have at least one member whose also a member of the clergy

[Eisfalken]

Why is there "the church" at all? There are over a hundred gods in most campaign settings. Why on earth would there be a monolithic single church? I would expect most cities to have multiple separate mostly non-interactive churches.

Bigger churches are literally necessary for bigger congregations. If 80% of a town worships Ehlonna more or less exclusively (they aren't soldiers that worship Heironeous or Kord, they aren't elves who worship Corellon Laretheon, etc.), then yes, absolutely the biggest religious building is the Church of Ehlonna. That doesn't mean the Heironeous worshippers can't have their own place, but it's not necessarily going to be bigger or even "equal" to the other church; it may not be anything bigger than a large shrine with a statue and altar for offerings in open ground. It also doesn't mean they won't go pay homage to Heironeous' shrine, just that it is secondary to their worship of Ehlonna. The biggest cities in settings are the only place where there are enough worshipers for several large churches.

Then there's the social aspect of a single big church. Churches aren't just some place you have to conduct rituals and rites in; they serve as social centers for all kinds of functions and purposes. In a lot of places, it was the place of education, as well as a place of refuge from disasters both natural and artificial. There's no reason whatsoever for it not to be here, either.

Finally, where there are multiple acknowledged deities, a single place to hold rituals and rites for all of them makes perfect sense: why build seven different churches at great expense, if the clerics agree they can share a single large place for shared worship? If we hold that the clerics of fantasy setting are not as intolerant as they might be in the real world, then communal worship in a big ol' church makes more sense.

[Eisfalken]

What a wonderful idea. Let's set a campaign in the middle of the godwars.

Forgotten Realms already sort of did something like that, the Time of Troubles. It's got quirks, but yes, the gods become mortal. Still have power, but... can be killed and such.

[martixy]

Context: Most of FR's gods with a custom pantheon on top of that.

Gods do try to keep out of the business of mortals, and while there is no holy mandate or universal cosmic agreement that explicitly enforces this, they are beholden to this notion of balance, overseen by the higher gods. Though, a trickster god for example isn't above descending upon the mortal realm once in a while just to have fun and f..k with people.

Given the objective existence of a veritable crapload of gods, the churches have a fair bit of power, depending on their size and relevance to a community. The largest churches of the most powerful gods do have the power to overthrow governments and seize control of entire empires, which has happened in the past and led to lots of conflicts until everybody's divine spells stopped working one time and the clerics wisened up to not misusing their divinely granted power for things their patron gods cared little about.

Now, they're mostly minding their own business in general, but depending on the ambitions of figures of power and their standing in the hierarchy you still get the occasional religious conflict.

[Krazzman]

From nothing to absolute power.

We play in Golarion. In Cheliax some "followships" are mightier than others, while Ustalav is quite religious the church isn't that powerful and in Lastwall it's total church state.

Then there are nuances depending on other factors (in one campaign The Spire [seat for Pharasma] was broken -> more undead -> lots and lots of undead -> a grim view to the "powerless" church) and changing the influence and general interactions with the church.

[Coidzor]

If 80% of a town worships Ehlonna more or less exclusively

'Course, that's a pretty big assumption for any setting with Ehlonna where they're not forced into it.

[Bohandas]

Praetorian shenanigans aside, the aqueducts got built and maintained, the roads got built, the legions got trained (and the bread got distributed and circuses were held)

Actually in the phrase "bread and circuses" he word circus is used in he ancient Latin sense referring to the venue in which the performance is held, not the performance itself or the performer troupe itself

[Yahzi]

Does the church exert a lot of influence in your city or town?
Since priests control healing, and everyone needs healing, the church is always powerful. Usually the highest level cleric is either a) part of the government, or b) the head of the government.

All of my churches are alignment-based; so nominally speaking there are only 6 religions, although they have have various offshoots that don't necessarily cooperate (or even fight).

But ya, the peasants don't show up for a weekly lecture. They only go to the church when they need magic. :smallbiggrin:

[johnbragg]

Actually in the phrase "bread and circuses" he word circus is used in he ancient Latin sense referring to the venue in which the performance is held, not the performance itself or the performer troupe itself

Fine. The Games got held every few years.