Detective wizard, bard or rogue for base?

[Hikarizu]

My initial concept was for a wizard private eye. Half-Elf Rogue 1-2/AT with expertise in Perception and Investigation the rest wizard Diviner or Illusionist. Background City Watch(Investigator) from Sword Coast Adventurerer's Guide. The idea is for the character to be skillmonkeying around helping with illusions in and out of combat.

Rolled this for abilities: 7 10 10 15 16 16
That 7 hurts a bit, but with two 16 and a 15 who am I to complain. I can still choose 27 point buy instead of the rolled abilities, but I am pretty sure there's no point. I think 8 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 16 Int, 10 Wis, 12 Cha will work best.

Party so far contains: another Rogue, Cleric of Life, Druid with interest in dipping Ranger or Monk and another Wizard probably a Bladesinger.

My question is. What would be a good point to drop Rogue and is Lore Bard/Wizard a better option? That way I don't lose spell slots only max spell level right?
Any other ideas that fit the concept are welcomed as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd just go straight Lore Bard? Good social skills area a PI classic, and it's a fine mix of skills and magic as it is.

[Hikarizu]

That's actually a very good idea. I was stuck on wizard because the Illusion specialization looked very good. That way I can change the 16 in INT with the 10 in CHA and get 18 on my primary casting stat. Maybe I'll get a sorcerer or warlock level after 3rd level to get some of those new cantrips from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

[Grod_The_Giant]

See if you can swap an instrument for proficiency in Internal Monologue

[Arkhios]

Definitely bard in my opinion. As a lore bard you get more skill proficiencies than a rogue does, and Jack of All Trades makes the bard the ultimate skill monkey in 5th edition. Bards are especially adept with illusions and as a lore bard you can fine-tune your spell repertoire to break illusions even better with (Additional) Magical Secrets, though I think bards get already quite nice assortment of spells that help with breaking illusions by default.

You don't have to be a singer or even musician to be a bard. You could just as easily perform oratory or maybe even make snide jokes on the occasion. Humoring folks is a good performance too :P

[JellyPooga]

As much as I want to chime in on the "just be a Bard" camp, there is one factor which may or may not be worth considering...Thieves Cant. Rogues are the only ones that get it as written and it may be useful to an investigator type. Your GM may allow you to pick it up as one of your additional languages, but that would be an "ask the GM" situation.

Another worthy consideration would be Thieves Tools. You've already got another Rogue in the party, but if you have proficiency as well, then you can buddy up on more tasks (read as: Use the Help Action on each other). Don't underestimate this; there's nothing quite as frustrating as being the only lock-picker/trap disarmer with a +7 modifier and rolling a 1 or 2 against that trap that's only DC:10 to disarm.

[Arkhios]

As much as I want to chime in on the "just be a Bard" camp, there is one factor which may or may not be worth considering...Thieves Cant. Rogues are the only ones that get it as written and it may be useful to an investigator type. Your GM may allow you to pick it up as one of your additional languages, but that would be an "ask the GM" situation.

Another worthy consideration would be Thieves Tools. You've already got another Rogue in the party, but if you have proficiency as well, then you can buddy up on more tasks (read as: Use the Help Action on each other). Don't underestimate this; there's nothing quite as frustrating as being the only lock-picker/trap disarmer with a +7 modifier and rolling a 1 or 2 against that trap that's only DC:10 to disarm.

Good points, though it might be worth multiclassing a few levels in rogue, but primarily remain as Bard

[JellyPooga]

Good points, though it might be worth multiclassing a few levels in rogue, but primarily remain as Bard

I agree. Further, whilst it's definitely lacklustre taken over the long run, the Mastermind Rogue Archetype is an awesome 3-level dip for an investigator-type character; it gives you all the tool and language proficiencies you could want for the role and you get Master of Tactics (Help action as a bonus action) on top. It's a pretty sweet deal, if you consider that the alternative is probably Arcane Trickster, which is basically +1 spellcasting level and a few spells known.

[Arkhios]

I agree. Further, whilst it's definitely lacklustre taken over the long run, the Mastermind Rogue Archetype is an awesome 3-level dip for an investigator-type character; it gives you all the tool and language proficiencies you could want for the role and you get Master of Tactics (Help action as a bonus action) on top. It's a pretty sweet deal, if you consider that the alternative is probably Arcane Trickster, which is basically +1 spellcasting level and a few spells known.

I had totally forgotten Mastermind archetype. Definitely worth the 3 levels dip for lore bard, indeed. I wouldn't worry about the caster levels really; Best thing about Arcane Trickster is they get Ranged Legerdemain, which is absolutely amazing feature to have.

[Ashrym]

As much as I want to chime in on the "just be a Bard" camp, there is one factor which may or may not be worth considering...Thieves Cant. Rogues are the only ones that get it as written and it may be useful to an investigator type. Your GM may allow you to pick it up as one of your additional languages, but that would be an "ask the GM" situation.

Another worthy consideration would be Thieves Tools. You've already got another Rogue in the party, but if you have proficiency as well, then you can buddy up on more tasks (read as: Use the Help Action on each other). Don't underestimate this; there's nothing quite as frustrating as being the only lock-picker/trap disarmer with a +7 modifier and rolling a 1 or 2 against that trap that's only DC:10 to disarm.

Proficiency can be picked up via background as a criminal or spy variant, or urchin; or running a custom background by the DM (like private investigator as a background).

I don't think that Wizard (probably diviner), or any bard college or rogue archetype works for a detective. I think it could be done with more classes as well. I'd be inclined to go with bard or rogue because of expertise. It's hard to select which because of jack-of-all-trades all-around bonuses when later on reliable talent kicks in on the rogue. Reliable talent is really good for the style if a person can wait for it.

[JellyPooga]

Proficiency can be picked up via background

For Thieves Tools, yes. For Cant, though, that's a GM call. It's a Rogue Class Feature, not a language listed in the Languages section, so some GMs will restrict it to the Rogue Class.

[YCombinator]

I'm not sure if your campaign allows it, but the Awakened Mystic from Unearthed Arcana makes one of the best detectives of any class, in my opinion. There are a bunch of very relevant skills:

Psionic Investigation allows you to focus on an object for 10 minutes, perhaps a murder weapon, or recovered stolen property, and learn a mental image of the last creature to hold the object. You learn the objects history of events happening within 20 feet of it for the past 24 hours. You can also place a ward on it and see from its point of view in the future. This might be the single detective power in the game.

Awakened Expertise gives your two additional skills and doubles the proficiency on one. Similar to the Rogues expertise. Skill checks are huge for a detective and you could gain expertise in investigation, for example.

Mind Vault lets you have proficiency in any skill at a moments notice. You're basically trained in all skills just so long as you can use your psionic focus on it. This is amazing for a skills monkey, and even better than the Bard in my opinion. Mind Vault also lets you borrow a language temporarily or gain advantage on a skills check.

Conquering Mind is a really badass interrogation power. Extract Query lets you pull the answer to any one question out of someone's mind.

There are a bunch of other somewhat relevant abilities in the class but those pop out the most to me. I think a detective is a really cool character concept. I played a detective once. Good luck.

[Hikarizu]

Thank you all for the suggestions. It seems that rogue3 lore bardX could be great for a detective, but it goes too far from my original idea. I would love to go for the Mystic, but the DM has this irrational hate for psionics that I'm still trying to help him overcome. And I feel that "I read his mind" wouldn't be enough poof for some people or it would be mine word against his. I'll go with AT/WizardX for Mage hand legendarian shenanigans , thieves tools proficiency and cant. The Illusionist special features look too good for me to pass.

[eastmabl]

See if you can swap an instrument for proficiency in Internal Monologue

I love this idea, actually, but as a class/background ability.

I'm imagining the internal monologue as an ability (1d20+Wis+Prof) where the player can call upon the breadth of his experience to give him hints on what's going on in front of him.

Kind of like the 3.x bardic knowledge check.

[Joe the Rat]

Are you planning on being a dodgy trickster or a back-liner in fights?

What is it with the illusionist spec that appeals in particular? I can see some use from Divination - and that is a rather thematically appropriate specialty.
Or you could go the traditional route for wizard detectives, and go evocation.

[Ashrym]

I love this idea, actually, but as a class/background ability.

I'm imagining the internal monologue as an ability (1d20+Wis+Prof) where the player can call upon the breadth of his experience to give him hints on what's going on in front of him.

Kind of like the 3.x bardic knowledge check.

Jack-of-all-trades already accomplishes this via bonus to INT and WIS checks. Expertise can add to this. Lore bard bonus proficiencies adds to this. The 14th level lore college ability can add a lot to this.

It just depends on whether the DM is applying knowledge benefits or not, but all bards get a bonus to such checks even if they aren't proficient which covers breadth of experience and knowledge.

[miburo]

I like the Lore Bard idea. Lot of skills + Jack of All Trade and Expertise, Cutting Words and Vicious Mockery represent the power of private eye one-liners, and spells aplenty to keep you afloat.

And if you tack on Great Old One Warlock 2, Eldritch Blast is your trusty sidearm and Awakened Mind lets you bring your internal monologue into the minds of the audience...or anybody else, for that matter =P

[Socratov]

You know, coming form a 3.5 background I'd never thought I'd see the day that multiple people would advise bard over Wizard for effectiveness... It somehow feels weird...

[djreynolds]

A lore bard who plays a violin and smoke a pipe... and has an assistant named Watson

[Arkhios]

Jack-of-all-trades already accomplishes this via bonus to INT and WIS checks. Expertise can add to this.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that Jack-of-all-trades applies to checks you're proficient with. It doesn't. Skills are the byproduct of Ability checks. There's a reason why you call the skill checks in this method: "Ability (Skill)" instead of "Skill (in which you only add Ability modifier)". Skills in 5th edition ARE ability checks.
If you take Expertise with a skill, you must first be proficient with said skill. And once you are proficient with a skill, you are proficient with that case of ability check in question. So, no additional bonus of half your proficiency bonus to this check.

[Dimolyth]

There is one option not mentioned before: Ranger.
Due to his "Favored Enemy" trait mostly. Pick up to humanoid races (humans and someone criminal-related in your campgn). You get Advantage in ALL Int (Investigation, knowledge, checks vs illusions) and Survival check against your criminals. You can get additional language (including rogue`s "Cant" for ranger/bard).
Then, for magical investigator, Hunter`s Mark fits thematics.

Though, the choice depends on "what I want to in combat" class choice. High Elf (for booming blade) Rogue(Thief espessially)/Ranger can become dread skirmisher and a guy who performs "daring pursuit" things.
Lore Bard (with Mastermind dip) is all about "team player" thing.
Rogue/Wizard or Ranger/Wizard would end as "wizard with great investigation" - so it will become a wizard mainly (controller/ blaster/ buffer/ debuffer/ generalist/ conjurer/ your own design).

[kaoskonfety]

See... and I'm looking at a dive into Knowledge Cleric for that Sherlock Holmes "I just happen to know everything there is to know about 16th century art right now, because I'm freaking brilliant" thing

[CantigThimble]

See... and I'm looking at a dive into Knowledge Cleric for that Sherlock Holmes "I just happen to know everything there is to know about 16th century art right now, because I'm freaking brilliant" thing

Knowledge of the Ages + Guidance is remarkably close to expertise in anything. Plus the level 6 feature is fantastic. Note that it doesn't say 'Present your holy symbol', nor does it require any somatic, material or verbal components. It just kinda happens and depending on what your GM thinks it might very well be totally undetectable, even in a face to face conversation. Also, a suggestion spell you already know will succeed is beautiful.

In addition to those benefits you also have great insight and perception as a cleric and get access to suggestion, augury, speak with dead and nondetection. Knowledge cleric is honestly amazing in any investigation scenario.

[Hikarizu]

Are you planning on being a dodgy trickster or a back-liner in fights?

What is it with the illusionist spec that appeals in particular? I can see some use from Divination - and that is a rather thematically appropriate specialty.
Or you could go the traditional route for wizard detectives, and go evocation. I'm going for Arcanier Arcane Trickster. My reasoning was the following: I wanna play a wizard, but not a plain wizard. The idea of a detective wizard was in my head for a while so I decided to go for it. As for why illusionist, I just really like all of the illusionist wizard features.
As for evoker I can think of two wizards Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden and Skulduggery Pleasant. Am I missing someone?

[Socratov]

Actually, I'd say a 7th level Arcane Trickster sounds about right for a rather decent detective (http://nightside.wikia.com/wiki/John_Taylor)... (at 2nd level locate object, and stealing through magehand)

[Ashrym]

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that Jack-of-all-trades applies to checks you're proficient with. It doesn't. Skills are the byproduct of Ability checks. There's a reason why you call the skill checks in this method: "Ability (Skill)" instead of "Skill (in which you only add Ability modifier)". Skills in 5th edition ARE ability checks.
If you take Expertise with a skill, you must first be proficient with said skill. And once you are proficient with a skill, you are proficient with that case of ability check in question. So, no additional bonus of half your proficiency bonus to this check.

I understood to process but may not have explained it well. What I meant was a bard always has a bonus from jack-of-all-trades at a minimum with options for better bonuses that do replace the joat bonus.

[Coyote81]

I feel a single level of cleric knowledge adds a lot. My ideal investigator would be knowledge cleric 1 mastermind rogue 3 and lore bard 16.