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View Full Version : Alignment/Star Wars-ish: amoral Light Side temptation?



JusticeZero
2016-02-14, 09:27 AM
So for a game I am looking at using a grey vs grey, dark is not evil, light is not good thing inspired by some star wars stuff and musings for a variant campaign.
In this framework, "Light" is focused on indirect action without emotion, no attachment, no anger or fear, meditative emptiness, "going with the flow" and the like; sort've Zen. In comparison, "Dark" is about willpower, anger (including righteous anger), attachment, fear, direct action, and generally flipping rude gestures at fate.

The issue is this: It's pretty easy to conceptualize how one might be tempted to darkness by anger, etc.

However, it is much harder to conceive of what kind of actions would mark a temptation of the LIGHT, given that each side is actually morally neutral. I can't use morality of actions; in this framework, Vader's attack on the Emperor in VI was a penultimate Dark Side action of defying order for the sake of a loved one, and it is completely reasonable to picture a sociopathic Light side character leaving a trail of dead bodies of innocents. I'm having a hard time picturing how someone on the dark side of things might be tempted by the Light in a quantifiable way during an encounter.

Suggestions?

GrayDeath
2016-02-14, 10:51 AM
Arrogance, "Better than they" or "beneath me" thoughts, avoiding conflicts, manipulating others to do your work, walking away from those in need/leaving people you value in danger and generally doing nothing that would actually change a situation prfoundly all seem emotionless, "cold" and "GWTF" deeds to me.

If you limit it to "encounters" (ergo more or less direct and forced (hehe) conflict it becomes close to impossible though.
The Light Side Temptation would occur BEFORE a conflict imo.

And let me add: I`d love to play in that setting (tried something similar but far less thorough in a long ago campaign).

Beleriphon
2016-02-14, 10:53 AM
So for a game I am looking at using a grey vs grey, dark is not evil, light is not good thing inspired by some star wars stuff and musings for a variant campaign.
In this framework, "Light" is focused on indirect action without emotion, no attachment, no anger or fear, meditative emptiness, "going with the flow" and the like; sort've Zen. In comparison, "Dark" is about willpower, anger (including righteous anger), attachment, fear, direct action, and generally flipping rude gestures at fate.

The issue is this: It's pretty easy to conceptualize how one might be tempted to darkness by anger, etc.

However, it is much harder to conceive of what kind of actions would mark a temptation of the LIGHT, given that each side is actually morally neutral. I can't use morality of actions; in this framework, Vader's attack on the Emperor in VI was a penultimate Dark Side action of defying order for the sake of a loved one, and it is completely reasonable to picture a sociopathic Light side character leaving a trail of dead bodies of innocents. I'm having a hard time picturing how someone on the dark side of things might be tempted by the Light in a quantifiable way during an encounter.

Suggestions?

Despite the way Star Wars seems to function, the Force is really is Good vs Evil. Emotionless detachment and meditative emptiness is a function of inaction, complete inaction. There is no temptation since that requires actions, and what you're describing is largely the antithesis of the way Star Wars seems to work. Even if there was a temptation its like asking the Buddha what temptation is there to follow his path?

At best Light Side temptations are ones where not taking action is easier than taking action. In a you need to think more before you jump right in, but still contemplative thought isn't exactly prone to being full of tempting goodies, since generally its seen as a good thing to actually do. Compare this to the quick and easy power of the Dark Side.

hymer
2016-02-14, 12:53 PM
Suggestions?

Have Light include actual, intended inaction. Sloth, fear and uncertainty all move you towards Light, then.

illyahr
2016-02-14, 02:16 PM
If being tempted to the Dark is allowing yourself to be swayed by Dark side tendencies, then being tempted to the Light is allowing yourself to be swayed by Light side tendencies.

Never taking individual action and only doing what the group does, allowing people to suffer because you don't want to hold attachments, and, as said before, a level of arrogance that their way is the only way to enlightenment.

The weak of will can be swayed by both the Dark and the Light. A weak-willed person swayed by the Dark becomes self-destructive in their own passions. A weak-willed person swayed by the Light subsumes themselves in dogma and eventually loses themselves to it. In either case, they become blind to their own actions and how self-destructive they are.

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-02-14, 02:48 PM
Arrogance
This. The light side I see in the opening post is detached, it's about not giving into temptation. If not giving into temptation is light/enlightened/good/whatever these people see themselves as, it becomes its own reward. By not giving into temptations you gain moral high ground, you become better than others. The greatest temptation towards the light side is a series of small, easy to overcome temptations. You feel like you've been tested, like you've build character, like you've paid your dues and have come out on top, but in reality you've just become an arrogant prick who can still be tempted just as easily as before but sees himself as being above puny mortal needs like asking for help when real trouble comes knocking. When such a character eventually runs out of luck and starts falling from their pedestal, they go down hard.

Alternatively, the light side can be an alternative to living. People who've been hurt ones too often, who are scared of the big bad world out there, they come in for the protection and security that a calculated and detached lifestyle offers. People who's made big mistakes they can never correct, who no longer trust themselves, who are running from their past. Maybe some folks who've never quite "gotten" other people, some brands of autists, some broken hearted fools. Maybe even some who are not running from their past, but from their future, a pedophile who's afraid he'll give in to his lusts could come in for sort of a voluntary life in prison. Basically these are the folks you could imagine reading about in stories about the foreign legion, or slightly cynical books on monastery life.

EDIT: I just realized this is basically vulcans versus klingons. Damn, star trek could have done way more with that conflict.

AMFV
2016-02-14, 02:55 PM
Well if you put it into a Westernized moral context. The light side is very much about what could be considered sloth. The temptation is the desire to remove oneself from the world to the point where a person no longer has any responsibility to it. That's what the tempting aspect of the light side is. Look at the Jedi over the past few series, constantly hiding when they should be active, avoiding involvement in greater affairs for good or for ill. They're all given to reclusiveness at the expense of any actual responsibility.

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-02-14, 03:05 PM
It's easy to keep your hands clean if you're always wisely holding out for more information before involving yourself in anything.

GrayDeath
2016-02-14, 03:16 PM
Interesting take AMFV, didnt think of it that way.

Yes, if going to work it with the 7 Cardinal Sins, Light in that aspect would be Pride and Sloth, the Dark ones Wrath and Greed/Envy/Lust depending.

Both could fall for others of course, but yeah, seems a good fit to me.

@illyahr/Level Expert/hymer: agreed.

Zumbs
2016-02-14, 03:22 PM
From your description, Light is also the emotionally detached, cold and calculating side, whereas Dark is the side that loves, hates and acts without hesitation. A dark'er might be tempted the calmness after doing something stupid in a fit of rage, or by the emotional detachment after the death of a loved one (flipping the off switch of emotion) or would like to be able to create long term plans.

I'm thinking something like the hothead that envies the person that's always in control because the person is in control. The dark'er could also be a substance abuser (clear dark trait) and want to get rid of the abuse (requiring control which is a light trait).

JusticeZero
2016-02-14, 09:16 PM
Despite the way Star Wars seems to function, the Force is really is Good vs Evil. Emotionless detachment and meditative emptiness is a function of inaction, complete inaction. There is no temptation since that requires actions, and what you're describing is largely the antithesis of the way Star Wars seems to work. Even if there was a temptation its like asking the Buddha what temptation is there to follow his path?Thus the frustration. Also, this is somewhat variant, based on the assumption that canon is "written by the winners" and skewed to make the other side look bad.

Jedi is the establishment sanctioned side, regularly well intentioned and not evil per se, but entangled in and complicit with corruption and the need to maintain the status quo, in part because they fear the consequences of upheaval. A destabilized Republic would create openings for all sorts of mischief in the power vacuum. Be calm, look at all sides, pay attention to the bigger picture.

The dark side types are working with neoSith ideas. To hell with the Republic, there are people here being victimized and hurt that are being ignored to keep the peace. Planetary governments are shackled by Republic agreements to benefit the whole, but the whole doesn't see the people there. Small worlds are stripped to benefit rich worlds, corruption simmers, slavers continue to operate protected by trade agreements, the poor are trampled for the greater good of galactic peace. The big fish eat the small fish in the circle of life, but that's no consolation to the small fish. "We died, and they did nothing."

Fable Wright
2016-02-14, 10:09 PM
To be a dark side user is exhausting. The one thing you need to do to stay in the dark side's good graces is to feel emotion. Constant emotion. Anger, or hatred, or love, or pride... you have to be intense. All the time. That's where your power comes from, and that's why the light side claims that the dark side is, in the end, weaker. Power from not caring is something that reinforces itself. It takes effort to maintain, but you can do so while resting or meditating. Over time, your power of detachment grows, unlike the dark side users, who burn out and feel the force fade.

The temptation of the light side is to not feel. When you see the survivors of a raid, or see injustice, the call of the light side is to surrender. To give up. To understand why the problem is, instead of fighting to solve the problem. When you've fought a dozen corrupt cops and bribed juries and dozens of other trying injustices, when you feel like no matter how much work you put in, it won't make a difference... the light side will call. It will tell you that you don't have to fight anymore, that you don't have to suffer. Just understand the big picture, and don't involve yourself. It might sound silly, but to someone who has always burn themselves like a candle to keep their power, it's tempting when the wick is burning low. Which is a sad thing, because they're close to the truth that the dark side teaches: that you don't need powers to do make a difference. Dedication and skill alone will do so, so much more.

Common biases, of course, are caused by appearances. The light side masters have their immortal, invulnerable, powerful force-ghost-liches telling you that the light side will bring you power, whereas dark side masters are just skilled mundanes telling you that you don't need power to make a difference. The light tempts you with power when you're at the cusp of no longer needing it, rendering the best of sentient life uncaring and refusing to make a difference. The dark side has problems with action before thought and rashness all around, but really, the light side may well be worse.

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-02-15, 01:36 AM
I'm tempted to try out a d&d setting with chaos and order fine tuned to emotional and distanced now. That might actually work very well.

goto124
2016-02-15, 02:04 AM
Does Light side mean making the most optimal decisions without caring for morality? Wait, what?

GrayDeath
2016-02-15, 07:19 AM
Probably more alike the most optimal result with the least action/effort/change.
For stability, Order, and of course uncaring principles, I`d say.

Read above.

And let me restate. I REALLY want to play in a setting with properly implemented Sides like that now.

Beleriphon
2016-02-15, 08:47 AM
Does Light side mean making the most optimal decisions without caring for morality? Wait, what?

That's my concern. If you really look at it without caring about morality the "light" option is really just a less dark version of Dark Side. Both are about appeasing your own inner desires. The comparison to Star Wars isn't a really good one in this case since the meditative calm with the Light Side in Star Wars is about not letting your own emotions guide your decisions, its about making the Right decision by letting the Force guide your actions.

Now, if you want to run a game where x and y are options go with that for sure. I'd make sure to distance any description from Star Wars since that really is Good vs Evil, no matter how much the EU/Legends stuff tries to spin it. The Magic of Recluse does the differing views to a degree. Black wizards are wizards of Order, while White wizards are wizards of Chaos. Either can be good or evil. The Black wizards are prone to meditative inaction since they tend to take the long view and try to foresee what their actions will do, while the White tend to take an immediate action without thinking about the long term effects. There's also a real sci-fi kick as the series goes on, but that's neither here nor there (the planet is linked to the author's actual sci-fi series).

Seto
2016-02-15, 09:05 AM
Being connected to your emotions is not always easy or nice. Often it is easier to repress pain, grief, anger or doubt, than deal with them. When people are in danger or dead, saying "I'm done with this crap, as of now I'm shutting down and I officially don't care" could be a tentation of the Light Side.

Kriton
2016-02-15, 11:45 AM
Being connected to your emotions is not always easy or nice. Often it is easier to repress pain, grief, anger or doubt, than deal with them. When people are in danger or dead, saying "I'm done with this crap, as of now I'm shutting down and I officially don't care" could be a tentation of the Light Side.

You could take this one step further, have the light side deliberately create the kind of misery that drives people to shut down their emotions in order to gain more followers. Of course they would have to be on site, where misery strikes, and help guide people through their grief.

Beleriphon
2016-02-15, 01:11 PM
I think you might be better off going with something like Open Mind and Closed Heart as names. The Light/Dark dichotomy seems a bit to Star Wars, and thus too attached to Good/Evil.

I also think you need to keep work on what exactly is negative about the lighter part of what you want to explore. The big one in terms of meditative calm is a move to having a superior way of dealing with the world, and the feeling that anything you do is always right. But, you have to be very careful to frame this in a way that makes it clear that it isn't just slipping to the other side causing this behaviour.

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-02-15, 01:25 PM
Dark and light make for powerful visuals though, which is why so many works use them. Just try to stay away from Star Wars imagery a bit maybe. The light side is not represented by monks with glowing swords, but by people in business suits, or folks in lab coats, or police types. Tha dark side is represented by some form of goth-punk crossover culture, leaving graffiti everywhere, or they use demonic and vampiric symbolism, or they are hipsters who only eat organically grown vegetables.

Alternatively just do go with a star wars feel, and explain you've changed things up a little.

AMFV
2016-02-15, 01:26 PM
Again you really have to look at viewpoints that are contrasting in terms of moral agency. Star Wars is very caught up in it's own brand of Pseudo-Taoism. In that philosophy the less action a person can use, the better (because that potentially could make you immortal). If you reframe the morals, not the actions of the Sith/Jedi dichotomy you see things very differently. The Jedi reject love (in ALL of it's forms), they reject passion, and emotion (in all of their forms). There is a certain appeal to that detachment, without having to worry about love you're never hurt, that's why the Jedi view love as the worst evil, because they are afraid of being hurt. So in a sense that particular temptation is that of inaction, or sloth. It's the temptation to avoid action to the point of it becoming evil.

Of course, it's difficult to define those things, since there is a lot of subjectivity in terms of alignment, if you have a dichotomy like this you would need to frame what both sides see as Good. It might be easier to see how one might be tempted if you reframe the Dark Side in a positive light, rather than reframing the light in a negative light. Then you could see why you would fall from it. I realize that this is going to be directly Star Wars, rather than Star Wars-ish, but that may help frame some things in ways that you can see.

From the Sith Code:

Peace is a lie, there is only Passion

This one is pretty hard to see in a positive light, as framed, but if we think about it in terms of what it actually involves, it's an argument against inaction, against things staying the same. It's not saying that people should always be at war, or always fighting. It's saying that a state of inaction is inherently a lie. It's a rejection of the Jedi Code in the broadest sense, and is a rejection of not acting. Of course this means that a Sith needs to always be acting, and that is exhausting and difficult, particularly if your actions don't always have the needed results, Luke Skywalker rushing to confront Vader is seen as an Evil action by the code of the Jedi, but it is arguably what saved his friends. The temptation here is to not act, indecision, paralysis, those are the temptations that a Sith faces, as well as sloth or laziness. A sith must combat the status quo.

Secondly it's a statement that Sith should always be emotional, acting on their emotions, it's a rejection of the idea that cold logic should guide conscience, emotional content is the key to somebody who follows this philosophy. If they are wronged, they act on their anger, if they are sorrowful because of the plight of others, they act. Now in Star Wars this is always depicted as generally negative, but in real sense, this is the pursuit of justice, this is the desire to help those who you care about, who pull at your passions. This is the desire to make art, to make things into reality.

Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.

These three tenants are all kind of the same, they are pursuit of excellence. A Sith must have victory, they must excel. So a driven person, who wants to be the best is their ideal. That is exhausting, there is always the temptation to not use your passions to excel, to accept mediocrity, that is what the Sith are completely against. Mediocrity, laziness, again, they are opposed to Sloth, to the idea of not winning, not excelling. A Sith to be truly part of their philosophy must be active and striving all the time, one can easily see how there could be temptations against this.

Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

This last is the desire to be free. If you are following your passions and are excelling, freedom is the end result. A Sith wants to be his own boss, he wants to be free and liberated. Furthermore he deserves that, freedom, the freedom to act, to do as they need is the driving emotion for a sith. But again, this is a terrible responsibility. The Star Wars films hold that this is too much responsibility. The way to have good sith is to show those who shoulder this burden, who embrace it.

LibraryOgre
2016-02-15, 03:44 PM
It's easy to keep your hands clean if you're always wisely holding out for more information before involving yourself in anything.

That's a succinct way of putting what I was thinking. Light, in this context, would have the temptation of inertia, of perfect knowledge. "I don't want to act on my own biases; I better get more information." "I don't want to get involved in a local matter; I'll simply observe."

In this context, Uatu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uatu) would be a being of pure Light... he watches. He doesn't act, except in rare situations. His "sin", if you will, is that of the person who has detached themselves, to the point where they may not really see the humanity of the people they're letting die because they don't know enough. The "Dark" side person is passionately righting wrongs, flinging themselves into the fray, while the light side simply... waits for more information, lest they make a wrong move.

noob
2016-02-15, 05:17 PM
I always have found the sith code more knightly.
An idealized knight fight for his country/ the ones he loves / the poor for which he have empathy and so on.
Passion include empathy and a lot of great emotions.
Loosing empathy makes you not feel the pain of the others and thus makes you not care and so stop having pain.
It is one of the many temptations of the evil light side.

JusticeZero
2016-02-15, 09:17 PM
For those who are raging about "But light is *always good*!", I again note that a core assumption is this:
"Canon depicts the Jedi as the epitome of goodness, not because the Jedi are the epitome of goodness, but because the Jedi are the ones controlling the viewpoint and framing of the canon".
That is, the hero of the work is not the hero because they are perfectly heroic, but because they are the character depicted in the work doing some heroic things. the work doesn't necessarily show that the character is ALWAYS heroic, nor does it necessarily show that all of their colleagues are just as heroic - only that the characters in the story are heroic, and do not, during the events depicted, confront any morally distasteful aspects of their organization.
Lots of religions have harbored a blend of very good and very evil people all using the same moral frameworks. Additionally, many religions have issues with their moral framework defining things as "very evil" which are morally just from other stances, and vice versa. Connecting one's religion to a literal, deontological, gameable alignment bar would make that worse, not better.
Also, most problems in society are "wicked problems". There are many ways that they can be addressed, and every solution creates its own problems.

goto124
2016-02-15, 09:27 PM
The Light/Dark dichotomy seems a bit to Star Wars, and thus too attached to Good/Evil.

FTFY :smalltongue:

Now that I think of it, one could do an Law/Chaos thing, where the Law side runs a tyranny and the Chaos side is trying to break out of it. The Law side wants to retain the status quo - it wants all the lesser races to remain lesser, sees prejudices as right and just, and will take every effort to eradicate Chaos.

Neither side is right or wrong though.

From what I've read, even in Star Wars the Jedi were sorta like this, while the Sith were all stupid evil people. Or so I heard.

JusticeZero
2016-02-16, 12:24 AM
Pretty much - but the Star Wars canon bears all the heavy handed hallmarks of a work where the authors neither understand nor care about the motives of their enemy, and demonizes them in vague terms. It leaves me saying "There's an other side to this - this side is way too powerful and popular to be as idiotically one dimensional as they are being portrayed as."

goto124
2016-02-16, 01:25 AM
So the Sith side are puppy-kicking mustache twirlers?

Plenty of websites (not sure which one is actually useful for this discussion, someone recommend one please!) talk about how the Jedi are far from perfect, and probably even evil.


Furthermore, the Jedi don't seem to care about collateral damage. In Return Of The Jedi, Luke blew up a "pleasure barge." Some of the passengers were probably just nice Tatooine couples on their honeymoon. A lot of the employees were slaves. Max Rebo and the Max Rebo Band were probably on that boat! That's like killing the Ace Of Base of space, Luke!

The detachment isn't just our imagination -- it seems to be an important part of the Jedi doctrine. Yoda routinely speaks to Anakin about removing connections with people, accepting death as a part of life, and basically separating oneself from any emotional links. Keep in mind Yoda says these things when he's talking about Anakin's girlfriend and his mother, who they left on Tatooine to be a slave. And if he can get that detached from his family and girlfriend, imagine how little he cares when he's murdering his enemies and the innocent people standing near them.

Apparently, the Jedi weren't even smart. No paperwork, no licences, no investigation, no ways to keep tabs on Jedi members.

hamishspence
2016-02-16, 07:02 AM
That was Jabba's private pleasure barge, not a public vehicle. Cracked, being Cracked, has a tendency to distort things wherever it would be funny to do so.

The newcanon novelization of ROTJ, released late last year (by Tom Angleburger) makes a point of saying that even the Max Rebo band are heavily armed and dangerous, "especially Sy Snootles" (in TCW she assassinated her lover, Ziro the Hutt (Jabba's uncle).

KillianHawkeye
2016-02-19, 11:20 PM
It seems to me that one possible "Light Side" temptation would be to rationalize any "lesser of two evils" type situations. Like killing one man to save 10, or slaughtering millions to save billions, or even just the "can't be in two places at once" heroic dilemma; that requires detachment. You can't make those kinds of decisions without regret one way or the other if you think of the people as real people and not just a statistic.

This makes a lot of sense when you consider that ones' passions tend to fail them when faced with this type of "no win" scenario. Most realistic characters are not super heroes, they can't actually stop both missiles or save both Mary Jane AND the trolley full of boy scouts. Luke can either choose to follow his passion and go save Han and Leia from Darth Vader on Bespin, or he can stay with Yoda to complete his training for the greater good of the galaxy, but not both. Anakin can either choose to help the woman he loves when she falls out of an air speeder, or he can go with Obi-wan to stop Count Dooku and put an end to the civil war, but not both (and the fact that they end up failing is irrelevant to the choice itself).

In the climactic struggle between Palpatine and Mace Windu, it is Anakin's inability to accept either outcome that leads him down the path to the Dark Side regardless of which one he chooses to help. He is simply too close to the issue and the consequences of either decision to think rationally, and it's easy to see how emotionally broken he is in the immediate aftermath.

Coidzor
2016-02-19, 11:38 PM
I'd probably mix a bit of Jade Empire's infusion of overtly faux-Asian philosophy into it if I were to go with an amoral light side.

There the Open Palm people, at their extreme, basically suffocate and stagnate people and society by both preventing change and taking on the burdens of others and becoming stronger by overcoming them and creating dependence upon them by others as part of building connections.

So a person who was like this would become the heart of a community but in a way where if they ever left or died, it'd be so much worse than it normally would be, due to metaphysics.

Contrasted with the closed fist which, when it does lead to helping others, it's aiding them in doing for themselves and learning to stand on their own, and when it's bad it's typical powerr hungry selfish bully stuff we all know.


So the Sith side are puppy-kicking mustache twirlers?

They are what the writers needed them to be.

So generally pants on head stupid and gratuitously evil while still somehow a threat. (See also: Dudes going full child murderer after growing up knowing their grandfather ****ed up and their family has been trying to help fix the mess since before they were born)

It's one of the pitfalls of genre fiction when it comes to antagonists as a side unto themselves.

ThinkMinty
2016-02-23, 02:37 AM
It's pretty easy to tempt Darkness into the Light within the OP's paradigm.

So, a Dark Affiliate, who we'll call Tim, has a bad bad bad day. An utterly colossal up-**** of an afternoon. He was just toolin' about in his idyllic hometown out on the planet Dolor-5, and suddenly some Space Pirates come in and plunder the joint up to kick butts and take all their stuff, namely all the pies, tasty malt liquor, and fireworks. The people of Archeron Town are being slaughtered by the hundreds before his eyes. He tried to do what he could with his Dark Powers, but a plasma mortar explosion blew him up out of town and he only survived by crashing into a tree canopy and crunching all the branches on the way back down to the unforgiving, leg-breaking earth. The sickeningly sweet smell of burning flesh fills the air, even half a mile away. His hometown is a still-burning mass grave. Tim's left leg is in so much pain he'd rather not have it at all anymore. He's got one rib that's still in tact. Breathing, just simply BEING hurts more than he can bear. The emotional pain is even worse.

In that moment, a shining spirit, some unknown entity affiliated with the Light appears before Tim, and offers to make all that hurt go away; to numb him up so much he'll never feel again. Tim surprises absolutely no one when he takes that offer, and all his wounds are patched up by the marvelous powers of the Light. All the pain, all the sorrow, all the heartache? Gone. He's numb.

My point is that the way you described Light, JusticeZero, it's sort of like the metaphysical version of opiates. The temptation is that Light makes the bad feelings go away. Sure, it replaces them with vacuous numbness, but it (paradoxically) feels good not feeling, not caring, being above such petty things like anger and hurt.

The Dark is tempting because feelings are intoxicating, the euphoric high of "**** you, I do what I want!" is obvious. The Light is tempting for far more insidious reasons...because it's a nice fuzzy blanket to wrap yourself up in and never feel anything bad or scary or difficult ever again. Lock your soul in a box deep down inside yourself and let the Light shine through the hole the bits that used to make you a person left behind when you traded them away for comfort and security.

GrayDeath
2016-02-23, 09:23 AM
Too bad there is no "Like" button here.

Even if your take is quite different from my own, I absolutely love it!

White is Opiates, Dark is Cocaine!

LibraryOgre
2016-02-23, 12:55 PM
The Dark is tempting because feelings are intoxicating, the euphoric high of "**** you, I do what I want!" is obvious. The Light is tempting for far more insidious reasons...because it's a nice fuzzy blanket to wrap yourself up in and never feel anything bad or scary or difficult ever again. Lock your soul in a box deep down inside yourself and let the Light shine through the hole the bits that used to make you a person left behind when you traded them away for comfort and security.

Very good point, there. The Light as an absence of feeling when feeling is too much.

Conversely, you have to look at people getting tempted to the Dark from the Light... coming out of numbness and into passion.

ThinkMinty
2016-02-24, 12:13 PM
Very good point, there. The Light as an absence of feeling when feeling is too much.

Conversely, you have to look at people getting tempted to the Dark from the Light... coming out of numbness and into passion.

Temptation, on a sort of arch level, happens because you're missing something needed, yearned for. It offers that which would have prevented prior failings, an "easy" fix for some huge mistake. Deals with devils become much more achievable if they can twist your arm.

Humans (and more broadly, mortals) are fallible, and the temptation of Dark (within Zero's construction) is that feeling offers pleasurable sensations such as joy, happiness, the warm fuzzies, and twisted, maniacal glee. Being able to enjoy things again instead of going through the motions without anything to care about, feeling the rush of risks and stakes, very tempting stuff.

Coidzor
2016-02-26, 12:50 AM
Temptation, on a sort of arch level, happens because you're missing something needed, yearned for. It offers that which would have prevented prior failings, an "easy" fix for some huge mistake. Deals with devils become much more achievable if they can twist your arm.

Humans (and more broadly, mortals) are fallible, and the temptation of Dark (within Zero's construction) is that feeling offers pleasurable sensations such as joy, happiness, the warm fuzzies, and twisted, maniacal glee. Being able to enjoy things again instead of going through the motions without anything to care about, feeling the rush of risks and stakes, very tempting stuff.

In other words, it'll cure your depression, just keep up with your body count quotas. :smallamused:

Definitely something worth using in that.

Wardog
2016-02-26, 06:12 PM
You could take this one step further, have the light side deliberately create the kind of misery that drives people to shut down their emotions in order to gain more followers. Of course they would have to be on site, where misery strikes, and help guide people through their grief.

I pointed out a while back (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16348244&postcount=38) that the Sith Code (as written, at least) messhes quite nicely with the creed of the Dai Gurren Brigade.

The obvious corollary is that the Jedi serve the Anti-Spirals.

goto124
2016-02-29, 02:46 AM
This comic (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1302.html) makes me think that the Light Side/Dark Side can be coded by a set of Light Principles/Dark Principles.


LightDark
Empathy Fear
CalmAnger


Unfortunately, the principles as they are now paint the Light side as "good" and the Dark side as "evil". I'm just taking from the comic.

noob
2016-02-29, 03:31 AM
Except that the light side people have no way to heal people while the dark side have powers that can heal people.
I believe that empathy is rather a dark side thing.
It is just that in a war you show less your good points.
And that the winner of the war can then tell everybody he was good and that the opponent was evil.

Ikitavi
2016-03-01, 02:48 AM
If being a Sith is about struggle and power, perhaps one could be tempted by submission. A temptation to let someone else choose the way, a temptation to put themselves in someone else's power, trusting them. Not unlike the temptation of Sloth, or the temptation of the Lotus people, but a more positive spin on it.

There is the temptation of fellowship, of not being alone, of being part of a larger organization that works as a team. To be on the Dark Side is to be constantly cutting down on the guy above you and keeping those below you in their place. So the temptation is to not CARE about rank and position. The Dark Side appeals to ambition, and if someone gives it up, they become a threat because they are no longer under control. The boss says, "Your promotion chances depend on you taking this overtime task without putting it on your time sheet." If the guys says, "I don't care about the promotion, it is just a lot more work with negligible increase in pay or benefits" then the boss is threatened. He WANTS you to care about the whole promotion treadmill. Get a little status and you have to pay a little more to keep it up. Eventually to get higher up and you are spending lots of money on parties for the company, partying with people you hate in order to get a little edge in company politics.