Radiant Servant of NOT-Pelor

[Kesnit]

Although I don't set out to kill PCs, the campaign I am running (a modified World's Largest Dungeon) can be brutal. For this reason, a few of my players are making back-up PCs to bring in in case their current one dies. The party is a Cleric/Divine Oracle, Totemist/Unarmed Swordsage, Fighter/Barbarian, and a Rogue-ish class from a 3rd party book that comes down to "Rogue with a little casting and losing light armor proficiency." (He almost never uses his spells, and I sometimes wonder if he remembers they exist.)

The player of the party's Cleric approached me during the last game session and said she'd like to bring in a different Cleric if this one dies. Specifically, Radiant Servant of Pelor, but substituting Fire Domain for Sun. Alternatively, taking Fire and Sun as Domains, even though Pelor does not grant Fire.

I am inclined to let her do either, but wanted to put the idea to people who are a lot better versed in 3.5 than I am. Thoughts?

[LTwerewolf]

RSoP has 2 shticks. Healing spells, and greater turning. Why be one if you're planning on not doing half of what the class offers?

[FocusWolf413]

Let your player do what your player wants. It's not unbalancing, it's not unfun, it won't break immersion, and you'll have a happy camper.

[OldTrees1]

Radiant Servant has class features that depend on the Sun and the Healing domains. While I think you should let the player run as a Fire/Healing or Fire/Sun Radiant Servant, I would suggest altering those class features so they are still relevant without the respective domain.

Also: Double check if the player was looking into playing as a cleric of the Burning Hate (internet fan theory about Pelor)

[Ashtagon]

Without the Sun domain, some of the class features are simply non-functional (extra greater turning). And without the Healing domain, others don't work (empower healing, maximise healing, supreme healing).

Basically, if you don't have both those domains, the class is sub-optimal.

What is it the player wants to do with the character (besides have teh Fire domain)? We may be able to find an alternate prestige class.

Off-hand, master of radiance (Libris Mortis) and combat medic (Heroes of Battle). You could also consider modifying the stormlord for him (Complete Divine) swapping out electricity for fire as appropriate.

[Melcar]

Let your player do what your player wants. It's not unbalancing, it's not unfun, it won't break immersion, and you'll have a happy camper.

I fully agree with this!

[Hecuba]

Without the Sun domain, some of the class features are simply non-functional (extra greater turning). And without the Healing domain, others don't work (empower healing, maximise healing, supreme healing).

This. The character's certainly not going to be disruptively powerful via RSoP, but a good chunk of the class buffs won't quite work right without modification. If you can find out what they want, you can probably either modify the class accordingly or direct them to a better PRC. Understanding the player's goals will be key here: if they are looking, for example, to have the maximize/empower effects apply to fire domain spells instead of healing you're in a much different boat than if they simply want to sway the fire domain spell list into the Sun domain.

Edit: In any event, you're answer probably shouldn't be "no" here. Something along the lines of "Are you sure? The PRC doesn't give all that much without Sun & Healing. Do you want to work on modifying it a bit?"

PS: The fact that fire isn't on Pelor's list isn't, of itself, an huge issue. Look up the feat Heretic of the Faith from Powers of Faerun.

[zergling.exe]

The only thing lost from not having the Sun domain would be the Extra Greater Turning ability. For all the people saying that not having the Healing domain will lose them anything... while most of the ability are healing related, none of them require it, and it would only be weird on a deity that doesn't have Healing to be giving all these healing abilities.

Also note that the Sun domain is a requirement for the PrC, while Healing is merely one of the other domain options granted by Pelor.

[Ashtagon]

The only thing lost from not having the Sun domain would be the Extra Greater Turning ability. For all the people saying that not having the Healing domain will lose them anything... while most of the ability are healing related, none of them require it, and it would only be weird on a deity that doesn't have Healing to be giving all these healing abilities.

Also note that the Sun domain is a requirement for the PrC, while Healing is merely one of the other domain options granted by Pelor.

Actually, not having the Healing domain will cripple some of the class features. Empower healing and supreme healing don't work on any healing spell the character casts, but only on "domain spells from the Healing domain". Domain spells means only those spells in the "+1" slots, not to other spells in the general slots, or even to spontaneously cast healing spells.

That's the RAW interpretation. As a RACSD interpretation though, I'd let it cover all his clerical healing spells.

Overall though, find out what the player wants his character to do, then either suggest alternate prestige classes, or modify this one.

[zergling.exe]

Actually, not having the Healing domain will cripple some of the class features. Empower healing and supreme healing don't work on any healing spell the character casts, but only on "domain spells from the Healing domain". Domain spells means only those spells in the "+1" slots, not to other spells in the general slots, or even to spontaneously cast healing spells.

That's the RAW interpretation. As a TACSD interpretation though, I'd let it cover all his clerical healing spells.

Overall though, find out what the player wants his character to do, then either suggest alternate prestige classes, or modify this one.

I've always thought of it as a poorly worded (and redundant) way of saying all spells on the Healing domain's list. It seems strange that they would have abilities requiring two domains but only requiring one of them to get into the class.

[Ashtagon]

I've always thought of it as a poorly worded (and redundant) way of saying all spells on the Healing domain's list. It seems strange that they would have abilities requiring two domains but only requiring one of them to get into the class.

It would be stranger if they'd actually proofread everything they wrote :smalltongue:

[Melcar]

Actually, not having the Healing domain will cripple some of the class features. Empower healing and supreme healing don't work on any healing spell the character casts, but only on "domain spells from the Healing domain". Domain spells means only those spells in the "+1" slots, not to other spells in the general slots, or even to spontaneously cast healing spells.

That's the RAW interpretation. As a RACSD interpretation though, I'd let it cover all his clerical healing spells.

Overall though, find out what the player wants his character to do, then either suggest alternate prestige classes, or modify this one.

The spntaneous domain ACF takes care of that problem, and lets the empower healing work on all your healing spells...

[Hecuba]

I've always thought of it as a poorly worded (and redundant) way of saying all spells on the Healing domain's list. It seems strange that they would have abilities requiring two domains but only requiring one of them to get into the class.

It would be far from the biggest whopsie they made on PRC prerecs - for example, consider the fact that they didn't remove the thrown-related feats from Invisible Blade's prerecs when the separated it and master thrower into 2 classes.
The wording seems so artificial to me that it almost has to be deliberate.


The spntaneous domain ACF takes care of that problem, and lets the empower healing work on all your healing spells...

Indeed, though you would still need the healing domain.


That does get us back to why the person is taking it, however.

What is drawing them to the PRC? Are they in it for the healing improvements? The anti-undead theme/ability? The improvement on light spells? The bonus domain?
The answers to this change the way to accommodate the player.

Options:

Switch out the granted power of the Fire domain for that of the Sun Domain and let the player enter with the Fire domain. Change nothing else.
Swap the extra use of Greater Turning for an additional use (or two) of the Fire domain granted ability. Let them enter with the Fire domain. Refluff the class à la Silver Flame
Have the player take Heretic of the Faith (or use a custom deity instead), allowing them to pick up both Sun and Fire. They can then pick up healing as the bonus domain at 5 (though this delays the benefit of the Empowered Healing ability by RAW).
Any of the above + allowing the healing buffs to affect all healing spells.
Direct them to another PRC.

[Kesnit]

I just spoke with the player in question. Here's her exact answer. "I'm thinking something with a little fire power literally, but still a decent healer and support player...."

[OldTrees1]

I just spoke with the player in question. Here's her exact answer. "I'm thinking something with a little fire power literally, but still a decent healer and support player...."

Swap Sun Domain with Fire Domain and swap Extra Greater Turning with Fiery Burst(reserve feat in Compete Mage)

[LTwerewolf]

Sun Domain
Granted Power

Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning. The greater turning is like a normal turning except that the undead creatures that would be turned are destroyed instead.
Sun Domain Spells

Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Heat Metal: Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels, more against undead.
Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
Sunbeam: Beam blinds and deals 4d6 damage.
Sunburst: Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage.
Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.


Most of the spells in the sun domain are already pretty firey or fire-related if not directly fire. Was there something specifically from the fire domain she wanted?

[FocusWolf413]

Sun Domain
Granted Power

Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning. The greater turning is like a normal turning except that the undead creatures that would be turned are destroyed instead.
Sun Domain Spells

Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Heat Metal: Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels, more against undead.
Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
Sunbeam: Beam blinds and deals 4d6 damage.
Sunburst: Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage.
Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.


Most of the spells in the sun domain are already pretty firey or fire-related if not directly fire. Was there something specifically from the fire domain she wanted?

You could swap out the domain power, keep most of the spells, and call it a day.

[Ashtagon]

Swap Sun Domain with Fire Domain and swap Extra Greater Turning with Fiery Burst(reserve feat in Compete Mage)

This.

Alternately, since the Fire domain normally lets you turn/destroy water creatures, perhaps this:


Extra Greater Improved Turning: You have twice the normal number of turn/rebuke attempts per day. By spending two uses of turn water creatures, you can choose to destroy any water creatures that would have been turned.

Normal: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.

Realistically, I'd expect such a character to collect some fire creature pets by commanding them.

[Hecuba]

Swap Sun Domain with Fire Domain and swap Extra Greater Turning with Fiery Burst(reserve feat in Compete Mage)

Seems like a good option. Honestly, I'd probably let the healing apply to non-domain spells too: it won't get quite to the level of "good healing," but it won't hurt.

You might suggest they pick up Prophesy's Shaper and Prophesy's Shepherd. Normally I'd suggest the Mastery feats as well, but with the PRC covering all healing spells, Day & Night is moot (and Ice & Fire is mediocre).

[nedz]

This.

Alternately, since the Fire domain normally lets you turn/destroy water creatures, perhaps this:


Extra Greater Improved Turning: You have twice the normal number of turn/rebuke attempts per day. By spending two uses of turn water creatures, you can choose to destroy any water creatures that would have been turned.

Normal: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.

Realistically, I'd expect such a character to collect some fire creature pets by commanding them.

this - it more closely matches the original intent.

The Sun and Fire domains are quite similar anyway.

[OldTrees1]

This.

Alternately, since the Fire domain normally lets you turn/destroy water creatures, perhaps this:


Extra Greater Improved Turning: You have twice the normal number of turn/rebuke attempts per day. By spending two uses of turn water creatures, you can choose to destroy any water creatures that would have been turned.

Normal: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.

Realistically, I'd expect such a character to collect some fire creature pets by commanding them.

Um. This is not as good an idea as it first looks. Encountering [fire] and [water] creatures is much rarer than undead. As such the extra usages will tend to be unnoticed. Even if they were using every rebuke/day, any necromancer will tell you that the size of the control pool matters more than the uses/day that add minions to the pool. If it were not for the scarcity of [fire] creatures I would suggest amending this to x2 control pool & 2 uses -> destroy but leave the number of uses/day where it is.

Still, this is a good path to explore down (better than mere Fiery Burst).

[Ashtagon]

Um. This is not as good an idea as it first looks. Encountering [fire] and [water] creatures is much rarer than undead. As such the extra usages will tend to be unnoticed. Even if they were using every rebuke/day, any necromancer will tell you that the size of the control pool matters more than the uses/day that add minions to the pool. If it were not for the scarcity of [fire] creatures I would suggest amending this to x2 control pool & 2 uses -> destroy but leave the number of uses/day where it is.

Still, this is a good path to explore down (better than mere Fiery Burst).

I would suppose that if a player really wants to play a character that is all about being good at dealing with water/fire creatures, the GM will play up to that character and, at least some of the time, deliberately place such creatures in front of that character in order to make him more relevant. Kind of like how Frodo's GM sent nazgûls to him, knowing he had a magic ring and a magic sword both of which were relevant to such encounters.

My main concern with that power as written is that the doubled turning pool could provide for DMM hijinks. Not my intent, and something that I routinely disallow in my games. The alternate would be to just add +1 to the total uses per day, but that all such uses can destroy water creatures without needing to use two 'charges'.

I don't think I'd want to boost the control aspect of this power though, since that's not something in the original remit of the radiant servant class.

[OldTrees1]

My main concern with that power as written is that the doubled turning pool could provide for DMM hijinks. Not my intent, and something that I routinely disallow in my games. The alternate would be to just add +1 to the total uses per day, but that all such uses can destroy water creatures without needing to use two 'charges'.


DMM does not work with the Fire Domain so no worries there.

[nedz]

DMM does not work with the Fire Domain so no worries there.

Yes, there are a few special feats that it does work with - but they're not all that special.

[Eisfalken]

I just spoke with the player in question. Here's her exact answer. "I'm thinking something with a little fire power literally, but still a decent healer and support player...."

Tell her to check out the shugenja with Order of the Consuming Flame. Loads of fire spells, only really needs a single ability score to be effective. I think that is exactly what she would get the most mileage out of instead of shoehorning Fire domain into Radiant Servant.

[zergling.exe]

Tell her to check out the shugenja with Order of the Consuming Flame. Loads of fire spells, only really needs a single ability score to be effective. I think that is exactly what she would get the most mileage out of instead of shoehorning Fire domain into Radiant Servant.

A fire shugenja is prohibited from healing (the other half of what the player wanted) due to not having access to water spells, which includes pretty much all the healing spells on the shugenja list.